Am I the only one who hates UTR?

jcgatennismom

Hall of Fame
I If I was a coach that would make me wonder about the kids desire to compete and improve and wonder why the player went to the tourney in the first place. If they made it deep in the main draw they'd have the same expense.
Many juniors playing USTA tournaments still attend public schools, and they have to ration days missed to avoid flack from school administrators. I know one player now playing regularly in the lineup for an ACC team, who played 2-3 years on his high school team, was 5 star or blue chip, but pulled out of public school his junior year b/c school officials gave family grief about 23 missed days of school. Didnt matter he still kept up his grades taking a rigorous curriculum. He returned his sr year and helped team win a state championship. If players have to choose which Monday or Tuesday to miss, they will choose to stay and play the MD Monday b/c going deep in a high level tourney could mean playing less tourneys as player earn enough points to get in nationals without playing every sectional. USTA sectionals can host 6 high level tourneys a year that earn sectional as well as national points, and most are held during the school year. Players have pulled out of tourneys to take AP tests. Kzoo starts later each year so now many southern players have to miss part of the first week of school to play. Nationwide schools have different calendars so there is no way USTA can pick a calendar that's best for every school district, but USTA sectionals could reduce draws-no need for 128 draws during school year! If more players had to earn their way into high level tourneys, the top players would miss less school due to shorter tourneys. Luckily most teachers ignore the tan of the kids who were out "sick" Friday and Monday if they have good grades. Used to have to remind my son not to wear tourney Tshirt first week back.

Dont assume players skip backdraw b/c they are afraid of losing to lower players. They may have legitimate academic reasons. The players who attend public school and even play for their HS teams while still playing USTA tourneys and an occasional ITF walk a tightrope to balance both tennis and school. The college coaches will appreciate that those guys have team experience if they also kept up their grades as well as TRN star/UTR level. That said some players withdraw for the wrong reasons. However, parents have to make the right choices for their financial, academic, and health situations. Many parents of serious players have the opposite problem-kids won't tell them they are sick or hurting until they are limping off court and miss the next 6 weeks. They dont withdraw when they should have.
 

andfor

Legend
Many juniors playing USTA tournaments still attend public schools, and they have to ration days missed to avoid flack from school administrators. I know one player now playing regularly in the lineup for an ACC team, who played 2-3 years on his high school team, was 5 star or blue chip, but pulled out of public school his junior year b/c school officials gave family grief about 23 missed days of school. Didnt matter he still kept up his grades taking a rigorous curriculum. He returned his sr year and helped team win a state championship. If players have to choose which Monday or Tuesday to miss, they will choose to stay and play the MD Monday b/c going deep in a high level tourney could mean playing less tourneys as player earn enough points to get in nationals without playing every sectional. USTA sectionals can host 6 high level tourneys a year that earn sectional as well as national points, and most are held during the school year. Players have pulled out of tourneys to take AP tests. Kzoo starts later each year so now many southern players have to miss part of the first week of school to play. Nationwide schools have different calendars so there is no way USTA can pick a calendar that's best for every school district, but USTA sectionals could reduce draws-no need for 128 draws during school year! If more players had to earn their way into high level tourneys, the top players would miss less school due to shorter tourneys. Luckily most teachers ignore the tan of the kids who were out "sick" Friday and Monday if they have good grades. Used to have to remind my son not to wear tourney Tshirt first week back.

Dont assume players skip backdraw b/c they are afraid of losing to lower players. They may have legitimate academic reasons. The players who attend public school and even play for their HS teams while still playing USTA tourneys and an occasional ITF walk a tightrope to balance both tennis and school. The college coaches will appreciate that those guys have team experience if they also kept up their grades as well as TRN star/UTR level. That said some players withdraw for the wrong reasons. However, parents have to make the right choices for their financial, academic, and health situations. Many parents of serious players have the opposite problem-kids won't tell them they are sick or hurting until they are limping off court and miss the next 6 weeks. They dont withdraw when they should have.
While I said the WD's may make the coach wonder, I should have followed that up, and said that most coaches would ask the player about it. Conversely a good coach may also review the withdrawals on their own, look over when they happened (MD, consolation, weekend, weekday) and be able to make a sensible evaluation from there. I agree that certain withdrawals can make sense. I still believe the listing of the withdrawals is indented to make the player think twice before ditching a scheduled match. Happy to hear from UTR on their rational.
 

bxr

New User
In UTR events, matches are designed to be "competitive", and there are "no" officials on the courts. This means cheaters can abuse the current system to gain advantage, sportsmanship means nothing to them when scholarship is on the line.
 
Cheating is a tennis problem, not a UTR problem. “Tennis people” typically only know tennis. No other sport would tolerate cheating.
Swimming requires parents to time, 2 per lane, plus a backup. Soccer requires parents to be linesmen. Golf - parents caddy and keep score for other players.
 

bxr

New User
Cheating is a tennis problem, not a UTR problem. “Tennis people” typically only know tennis. No other sport would tolerate cheating.
Swimming requires parents to time, 2 per lane, plus a backup. Soccer requires parents to be linesmen. Golf - parents caddy and keep score for other players.
Cheating in tennis exists because of lack of officials. Since the outcome of UTR matches does impact your rating and qualification for a scholarship, the pressure to perform (against someone with similar ability) for some can twist the original intents of UTR matches, that is to get quality matches locally. But having no officials at all, makes it similar to social comps...
 
Cheating in tennis exists because of lack of officials. Since the outcome of UTR matches does impact your rating and qualification for a scholarship, the pressure to perform (against someone with similar ability) for some can twist the original intents of UTR matches, that is to get quality matches locally. But having no officials at all, makes it similar to social comps...

Again, a tennis problem as most UTR matches and USTA tournaments have “officials present,” but only 1 for every 4-6 courts. How can 1 official watch 4+ courts?

USTA has even started charging $10 more per tournament, but still don’t have someone watching every court.

There are many easy solutions to cheating. The real problem is that organizers have only ever known tennis and how things have traditionally been done.
 

rafazx10

Rookie
It is very expensive to have tennis officials. Cant have parents being officials as it takes training.
As a matter of fact, even some futures qualys dont have officials in each court.
 
It is very expensive to have tennis officials. Cant have parents being officials as it takes training.
As a matter of fact, even some futures qualys dont have officials in each court.

Ever been to a swim meet? Parents are given 10 minutes of training on how to time before the meet starts. In tennis, parents wouldn’t be officials, they would help call lines. There would still be one official covering 6+ courts (just like swimming).

It’s not rocket surgery.
 
Keeping the kids from cheating is a bigger issue at tennis tournaments than at swim meets. Not really a tight analogy.

Yes, I agree. So even more of a reason for parent participation in tennis. In swimming, parent timers are backing up electronic timing. (Except for 25y events). That’s 1 electronic timer, plus 2 hand timers and a floating backup timer - for each lane. Tennis has NOTHING - except cheating.

Now please opine on the golf analogy. Three players, each with a parent-caddy. Each one keeps track and records scores for one opponent, plus their own kid. The caddy who you track doesn’t track you. How tight is that?
 

bxr

New User
Again, a tennis problem as most UTR matches and USTA tournaments have “officials present,” but only 1 for every 4-6 courts. How can 1 official watch 4+ courts?

USTA has even started charging $10 more per tournament, but still don’t have someone watching every court.

There are many easy solutions to cheating. The real problem is that organizers have only ever known tennis and how things have traditionally been done.
We have No officials for UTR events except one organiser busy allocating 60+ players to courts and recording results. With tournaments, we have 1 for every 6 courts, which is fine.
Technologies can help, but not cost effective enough.
Tennis parents should not be on the court at all. They are sometimes more emotional than kids (head shaking, coaching, intimidating, swearing, clapping on opponents mistakes)
All I’m suggesting is for UTR events to have rules to address issues like cheating and disputes (ie must have an official available, even just 1 for every 10 courts), it is tennis problem in general, but what are the incentives to play UTR events knowing that it’s an event with no officials and you are playing someone who might have a reputation of cheating. Deal with it like it’s a mental training?
 
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We have No officials for UTR events except one organiser busy allocating 60+ players to courts and recording results. Tournaments we have 1
for every 6 courts, which is fine.
Technologies can help, but not cost effective enough.
Tennis parents should not be on the court at all. They are sometimes more emotional than kids (head shaking, coaching, intimidating, swearing, clapping on opponents mistakes)
All I’m suggesting is for UTR events to have rules to address issues like cheating and disputes (ie must have an official available, even just 1 for every 10 courts), it is tennis problem in general, but what are the incentives to play UTR events knowing that it’s an event with no officials and you are playing someone who might have a reputation of cheating. Deal with it like it’s a mental training?
We have No officials for UTR events except one organiser busy allocating 60+ players to courts and recording results. Tournaments we have 1
for every 6 courts, which is fine.
Technologies can help, but not cost effective enough.
Tennis parents should not be on the court at all. They are sometimes more emotional than kids (head shaking, coaching, intimidating, swearing, clapping on opponents mistakes)
All I’m suggesting is for UTR events to have rules to address issues like cheating and disputes (ie must have an official available, even just 1 for every 10 courts), it is tennis problem in general, but what are the incentives to play UTR events knowing that it’s an event with no officials and you are playing someone who might have a reputation of cheating. Deal with it like it’s a mental training?

Sounds like you’re doing the wrong events with the wrong people. It’s amazing how civil people will act when you give them something to do. Go to a swim meet or a golf tournament. Encourage your event organizer to do the same.
 
Just curious if you have kids playing junior tennis?

Yes, of course. I think my viewpoints may differ from most because I’m don’t consider myself a “tennis person.” Tennis has a lot of odd traditions that I find exclusive, counterproductive, and boring. Most sports have evolved. UTR is a start to the evolution process, especially in competitive junior tennis.

UTR cuts down on the ridiculous amount of travel/expense.
UTR allows for coaching, which speeds development (many UTR organizers still don’t allow it). No other sport would send a child between the ages of 7-17 into competition to go figure it out. People act completely different in real competition and need guidance (even an untrained second set of eyes helps). I have my kids watch the WTA coaching changeovers and they say, why can’t we do that?
UTR allows screening and messaging other players and self reporting. Saving time and money.

Silence during points cuts down on excitement and doesn’t grow the game. If a basketball player can hit a free throw with 50,000 fans singing “I’m a little teacup,” then you can hit a serve in the same environment. The Big 12 allows cheering and heckling during points that increased attendance from 200 fans to 2,000 fans. Look it up.

Why is so much of a juniors’ practice time spent with a coach, paying $25-$125 per hour? Very little practice on their own. And then the coach doesn’t show up for matches.

If tennis organizers had any experience playing and/or coaching other sports, tennis would be much more popular and enjoyable.
 

rafazx10

Rookie
I dont know. Maybe at juniors now a days this is a much prevalent problem than in the past.
I only had very little experience playing against cheaters, and when it does happen, it is very frustrating. But people that win by cheating will not go far.
 

jcgatennismom

Hall of Fame
UTR allows for coaching, which speeds development (many UTR organizers still don’t allow it). No other sport would send a child between the ages of 7-17 into competition to go figure it out. People act completely different in real competition and need guidance (even an untrained second set of eyes helps). I have my kids watch the WTA coaching changeovers and they say, why can’t we do that?
Doesnt USTA still allow coaching before 3rd set if players split? My son played HS tennis too which allowed coaching but the coach did very little coaching-maybe just some encouragement. Successful tennis players are probably more mature and disciplined than other athletes their age, and part of that is due to having to figure out how to adjust strategy and manage momentum changes on their own. That independence and self-reliance also builds confidence.
 

ClarkC

Hall of Fame
Yes, I agree. So even more of a reason for parent participation in tennis. In swimming, parent timers are backing up electronic timing. (Except for 25y events). That’s 1 electronic timer, plus 2 hand timers and a floating backup timer - for each lane. Tennis has NOTHING - except cheating.

Now please opine on the golf analogy. Three players, each with a parent-caddy. Each one keeps track and records scores for one opponent, plus their own kid. The caddy who you track doesn’t track you. How tight is that?
Sounds like the golf parent can contribute monitoring (to prevent cheating) while also getting to watch his child play. How do you achieve that in tennis? I wouldn't trust a lot of tennis parents to call lines in their own child's match.
 

5sets

Hall of Fame
Ever been to a swim meet? Parents are given 10 minutes of training on how to time before the meet starts. In tennis, parents wouldn’t be officials, they would help call lines. There would still be one official covering 6+ courts (just like swimming).

It’s not rocket surgery.


Rocket surgery?
 

andfor

Legend
Impossible to measure but I doubt cheating is worse now than when I played juniors and college in the 80’s. What I’ve noticed that appears very different is how little kids play or practice on their own without a parent or coach supervising or watching over the kids shoulder. I’ve said it before, kids need to play tennis unsupervised (in a safe environment of course). This way they can learn to problem solve on their own. Also playing on their own develops a deeper real personal appreciation of the game. No momma and daddy pleasing.


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bxr

New User
Sounds like the golf parent can contribute monitoring (to prevent cheating) while also getting to watch his child play. How do you achieve that in tennis? I wouldn't trust a lot of tennis parents to call lines in their own child's match.
From what I’ve seen, pressure from parents are usually the reason for kids’ cheating although some might argue they just want to win so badly. I support coaching on court during the changes at the junior level, but only with the coaches, it has more benefits than harm for a player’s development. Coaches will assess if his/her student is cheating and make better calls than parents. In most cases, parents will not react when your kids are cheating in match situations, but on the receiving end, if your own kid is being hooked, some parents will act like lunatics. It just doesn’t work and you are bound to have issues if parents are involved or anywhere on the court.
UTR event should facilitate with some sort of codes similar to major tournaments if they want people to take it seriously. It’s NOT OK to put up with cheating. That’s also the reason so many good kids quit the sport because no effective solution is available to address it.
 
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Impossible to measure but I doubt cheating is worse now than when I played juniors and college in the 80’s. What I’ve noticed that appears very different is how little kids play or practice on their own without a parent or coach supervising or watching over the kids shoulder. I’ve said it before, kids need to play tennis unsupervised (in a safe environment of course). This way they can learn to problem solve on their own. Also playing on their own develops a deeper real personal appreciation of the game. No momma and daddy pleasing.


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So

There are cheap solutions (volunteer parents) and tech solutions like PlaySight. PlaySight has a challenge feature, widely used in college matches that eliminates cheating.
USTA doesn’t allow players to use it. Just plain stupid. However, kids can use the PlaySight system to record matches and even without the challenge
From what I’ve seen, pressure from parents are usually the reason for kids’ cheating although some might argue they just want to win so badly. I support coaching on court during the changes at the junior level, but only with the coaches, it has more benefits than harm for a player’s development. Coaches will assess if his/her student is cheating and make better calls than parents. In most cases, parents will not react when your kids are cheating in match situations, but on the receiving end, if your own kid is being hooked, some parents will act like lunatics. It just doesn’t work and you are bound to have issues if parents are involved or anywhere on the court.
UTR event should facilitate with some sort of codes similar to major tournaments if they want people to take it seriously. It’s NOT OK to put up with cheating. That’s also the reason so many good kids quit the sport because no effective solution is available to address it.

I agree, but I promise parents become better citizens when they’re not just sitting on their butts spectating. Watch a kids golf tournament. Parents are caddies. They are honest, helpful and great role models.
 
Sounds like the golf parent can contribute monitoring (to prevent cheating) while also getting to watch his child play. How do you achieve that in tennis? I wouldn't trust a lot of tennis parents to call lines in their own child's match.
Don’t monitor you own kid’s match. Rotate.
 
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Silence during points cuts down on excitement and doesn’t grow the game. If a basketball player can hit a free throw with 50,000 fans singing “I’m a little teacup,” then you can hit a serve in the same environment. The Big 12 allows cheering and heckling during points that increased attendance from 200 fans to 2,000 fans. Look it up..

"Just save college tennis through loud trash talk that ruins the quality of play in a highly technical sport that requires fine motor control, bro"
 
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"Just save college tennis through loud trash talk that ruins the quality of play in a highly technical sport that requires fine motor control, bro"

Fine motor skills are used in painting and sculpting. Gross motor skills are used in basketball, hockey and tennis. Yea, maybe the Big 12 format is a little extreme, but cheering during a point is completely fine. My kids played at Forrest Hills with subway tracks 50 yards away. That was also the host site of the US Open for many years.

Most pro events have courts adjacent to each other. When one point ends everyone watching cheers. Does the player in the adjacent court call a let if he/she is serving when that happens?
 
Fine motor skills are used in painting and sculpting. Gross motor skills are used in basketball, hockey and tennis.

Nice attempt to group together that odd man out, as if those were similar sports ... They are not. Basketball and hockey are completely different in motor control needed to perform effectively compared to golf and tennis, the technical sports. And golf also has a tradition of a quiet environment and customs and rules limiting distractions during strokes. Because both sports require finer motor control, for one major reason.

Most pro events have courts adjacent to each other. When one point ends everyone watching cheers. Does the player in the adjacent court call a let if he/she is serving when that happens?

Basically, having nearby courts during a tournament cannot be avoided for practical reasons. But that does not justify allowing unnecessary distractions, noise, heckling in the one court we have control over.
 
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