Amarissa Toth

jimmy8

Legend
so a couple soldiers let farmers go and war is all fair play lol come on man goodness that doesn't negate all the instances of savagery in war in order to win be real man. sports is all about winning like war, competitors do whatever to gain an edge they can get away with. if you want sportsmanship, make it not about winning anymore.
So the only way to win is to cheat, got it.

Sportsmanship can only exist if winning and losing don't exist, got it.
 

big ted

Legend
Can someone explain what's so outrageous about wiping a mark, AFTER the umpire already ruled the point?

Seems like there's an overreaction, to put it mildly. First and foremost from Shuai, who seems to have some mental issues...

shuai is 34yo, been on the tour for 20yrs! and won 2 doubles GS titles but she acted like it was her first match on tour w/ no composure. ... i dont get it either
 

Airspun

Professional
Well, the good news, and most amazing of all is that this remote ice planet became a professional, tennis player!
 

citybert

Hall of Fame
If Toth had to go hit a ball in that vicinity on the subsequent point should she have danced around that mark so Zhang could stare at it the remainder of the match?
 

am1899

Legend
By the time Toth removed it the chair had already ruled on it. Given that, I see no issue with what she did, as so far as the rules. Now, under the circumstances of Zhang still carrying on about it…might have been better to leave that particular mark be. But hindsight is 20/20. How’s Toth supposed to know Zhang was going to lose her mind and not be able to continue playing when she did that? And anyone saying it suggesting that removing an old mark is “taboo” or somehow against some ethical code…that is just plain ridiculous. Players do that routinely, including pro players.

Edit: For me the celebration after by Toth was absolutely cringe worthy.
 
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kevin qmto

Hall of Fame
Even the big 3 have had moments they have lost it on the court. Shuai should have moved on but that doesn’t mean she has mental health issues.
Remember that time Fed lost a match in 2021 and made the press sit around for literally 2 hours before he left the locker room for his obligated post match press conference? Did it really take that long to get him to stop crying?
 

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
Glad to see her getting called out by peers for her disgusting display.

Not a good way to start her career as a player. Good luck finding friends/hitting partners.


That was Horrible sportsmanship,, Toth should be fined $50,000. i demand WTA enact this fine immediately
 
It makes no difference what the Hungarian umpire thought she saw.

What matters to me, it's your opinion, and just said you think the ball was in.

For me it's unbelievable that you think the ball was in, and still siding with the Hungarian cheat.

Totally uncool.
This is really a poor argument. First off, it absolutely matters what the umpire saw, because it is the umpire's call to make, period. We don't know what Toth thought. She might have thought the ball was out, or she might not have been sure one way or the other. There is an entire thread on this forum that talks about "bad calls," and the reality is, we don't always see the ball correctly, especially when we're moving. Second, almost everyone who has defended Zhang hasn't seen the whole video, only the "edited" video which makes it look like Toth erased the mark during the argument. That is not what happened. She complained, the umpire got out of the chair and checked the mark, confirmed the call, and then more complete points were played. The umpire's call may have been bad call, but it is the umpire's decision, and that is when a professional acts like a professional and moves on. But Zhang still complained, for 10 more minutes. I am sure Toth was frustrated by that alone -- that is a huge distraction for her, and could easily be a mind game as well, for all she knows. I recall Connors back in the day threatening McEnroe for that very reason when Mac went on an extended tirade. I also recall Hingis refusing to accept up a call in the French final in 1999, and falling to pieces, but not many defended her then. I don't see why we're treating Zhang differently and placing all this blame on Toth. Fire the ump if you want, but stop assuming you know what was in Toth's head.
 

jimmy8

Legend
This is really a poor argument. First off, it absolutely matters what the umpire saw, because it is the umpire's call to make, period. We don't know what Toth thought. She might have thought the ball was out, or she might not have been sure one way or the other. There is an entire thread on this forum that talks about "bad calls," and the reality is, we don't always see the ball correctly, especially when we're moving. Second, almost everyone who has defended Zhang hasn't seen the whole video, only the "edited" video which makes it look like Toth erased the mark during the argument. That is not what happened. She complained, the umpire got out of the chair and checked the mark, confirmed the call, and then more complete points were played. The umpire's call may have been bad call, but it is the umpire's decision, and that is when a professional acts like a professional and moves on. But Zhang still complained, for 10 more minutes. I am sure Toth was frustrated by that alone -- that is a huge distraction for her, and could easily be a mind game as well, for all she knows. I recall Connors back in the day threatening McEnroe for that very reason when Mac went on an extended tirade. I also recall Hingis refusing to accept up a call in the French final in 1999, and falling to pieces, but not many defended her then. I don't see why we're treating Zhang differently and placing all this blame on Toth. Fire the ump if you want, but stop assuming you know what was in Toth's head.
Did you already forget that this was a clay court and there was a clear mark showing the ball in? Did you not watch Toth's foot move right on the line when she erased the mark? If she thought it was out, she would have moved her foot in the doubles alley to erase a mark, or actually, if she thought it was out, she would have pointed to the mark showing it was out, oh wait, there was no mark showing a ball out near where the ball landed. And she wasn't in the far court when the ball landed, she wasn't in the middle of the court when the ball landed, she was in the middle-ish part of the court, about midway from the sideline and the mid-point of the court. Toth saw the mark, so your argument of she might have thought the ball was out is not flying.
 

Arak

Legend
It makes no difference what the Hungarian umpire thought she saw.

What matters to me, it's your opinion, and just said you think the ball was in.

For me it's unbelievable that you think the ball was in, and still siding with the Hungarian cheat.

Totally uncool.
One point doesn’t win a match, well, unless it’s match point. Shuai won that game so no harm done. A smart player doesn’t obsess about one point. Besides, it’s the umpire job to call the points, not the players.
 

Raiden

Hall of Fame
Can someone explain what's so outrageous about wiping a mark, AFTER the umpire already ruled the point?
In isolation that was not a big deal thing indeed. But context is everything — up to that moment during all the argument, that player (Toth) was pretending not to know what was going on. She was far back at the other back corner and facing the crowd (had her back to the center of the court) — was clearly playing deaf (acting as if she couldn't see or hear anything and wasn't interested). A common stance of a player to avoid eyecontact by the umpire and/or the other player and getting asked perhaps to express opinion on what happened in her opinion. So Toth professioanlly went out of her way to avoid participating in the controversy up to that point — then all of a sudden walked in straight line and exactly went to the disputed mark (put her foot on the line, not outside) and wiped it off.

By doing so she revealed her card (that she knew all along the ball was in). That's why players ganged up against her. They are judging her intent — not the mere wiping off of a mark.
 
If this story wouldn’t have happened to an Hungarian (well Thai-Hungarian but that is often overlooked) in hungary… would this still be such big news?

I mean I hear this not only in the tennis world but in every news outlet all over the world (even those who never cover tennis.

Hungary is the second most disliked nation by the west after Russia after all
 

Topspin_80

Hall of Fame
One point doesn’t win a match, well, unless it’s match point. Shuai won that game so no harm done. A smart player doesn’t obsess about one point. Besides, it’s the umpire job to call the points, not the players.
You are deflecting, a clear sign you don't want to deal with the real point.

Which was a flagrant robbery done before the world that lots of top WTA players are condemning, and you are apologizing.

That shows how you are.
 

kayapit

Semi-Pro
Toth said in a statement on her Facebook. "I am extremely sorry for what happened, I respect Zhang Shuai as a player and as a person. It was never my intention to disrespect, hurt or upset anybody, let alone Zhang Shuai.

"I do realize I shouldn’t have celebrated the way I celebrated after the match and I’m sorry for that."
Too little too late. That's the crafted PR statement. The on court behavior is the real person.
 

ponzicrash

New User
The real bad actors here are all the people criticizing Toth while either not watching the incident in it's entirety or purposefully misconstruing what actually happened.
 

Airspun

Professional
Still why is NO ONE mentioning how an actual PLANET became a tennis player? amazing!!!

Empire-Strikes-Back-Star-Wars-Hoth.jpeg
 
Did you already forget that this was a clay court and there was a clear mark showing the ball in? Did you not watch Toth's foot move right on the line when she erased the mark? If she thought it was out, she would have moved her foot in the doubles alley to erase a mark, or actually, if she thought it was out, she would have pointed to the mark showing it was out, oh wait, there was no mark showing a ball out near where the ball landed. And she wasn't in the far court when the ball landed, she wasn't in the middle of the court when the ball landed, she was in the middle-ish part of the court, about midway from the sideline and the mid-point of the court. Toth saw the mark, so your argument of she might have thought the ball was out is not flying.
Did you watch the whole video? It is obvious from your reply that you did not. Zhang complained, the umpire went down and looked at the mark, and ruled it in. It was OVER at that point. Zhang could jump up and down all she wanted, but nothing would change that call. It was done. And then they played more points. And Zhang even won that game. But Zhang kept complaining. Toth did NOT wipe away the mark while the call was in dispute, but you won't admit that because it destroys your argument, which is based solely on the insinuation that Toth wiped the mark away while the point was in dispute. Moreover, you've decided, in your head, to villainize Toth, so you further go on to assume that Toth saw the ball in and therefore actually affirmatively cheated (somehow) by not voluntarily surrendering the point. I guess you're ignoring the, I don't know, 85 million arguments about line calls we've seen in professional tennis, where people see the ball differently? Geez. The umpire is the one at fault here, not Toth. Fire the ump, or the linesperson, but Zhang needs to be professional enough to overcome a bad call.
 

jimmy8

Legend
Did you watch the whole video? It is obvious from your reply that you did not. Zhang complained, the umpire went down and looked at the mark, and ruled it in. It was OVER at that point. Zhang could jump up and down all she wanted, but nothing would change that call. It was done. And then they played more points. And Zhang even won that game. But Zhang kept complaining. Toth did NOT wipe away the mark while the call was in dispute, but you won't admit that because it destroys your argument, which is based solely on the insinuation that Toth wiped the mark away while the point was in dispute. Moreover, you've decided, in your head, to villainize Toth, so you further go on to assume that Toth saw the ball in and therefore actually affirmatively cheated (somehow) by not voluntarily surrendering the point. I guess you're ignoring the, I don't know, 85 million arguments about line calls we've seen in professional tennis, where people see the ball differently? Geez. The umpire is the one at fault here, not Toth. Fire the ump, or the linesperson, but Zhang needs to be professional enough to overcome a bad call.
I did watch the whole video, a long time ago.

I was arguing a narrower area. Your contention she might not have known if it was in or out. I wasn't saying she's a villain for erasing the mark, I was saying she knew it was in because she saw the mark. And where her foot movement was when she erased it was right on the line.
 

jimmy8

Legend
Did you watch the whole video? It is obvious from your reply that you did not. Zhang complained, the umpire went down and looked at the mark, and ruled it in. It was OVER at that point. Zhang could jump up and down all she wanted, but nothing would change that call. It was done. And then they played more points. And Zhang even won that game. But Zhang kept complaining. Toth did NOT wipe away the mark while the call was in dispute, but you won't admit that because it destroys your argument, which is based solely on the insinuation that Toth wiped the mark away while the point was in dispute. Moreover, you've decided, in your head, to villainize Toth, so you further go on to assume that Toth saw the ball in and therefore actually affirmatively cheated (somehow) by not voluntarily surrendering the point. I guess you're ignoring the, I don't know, 85 million arguments about line calls we've seen in professional tennis, where people see the ball differently? Geez. The umpire is the one at fault here, not Toth. Fire the ump, or the linesperson, but Zhang needs to be professional enough to overcome a bad call.
A player can concede a point. So it's not only on the umpire.

If you either see a ball in or see a mark on a clay court afterwards that is in and you don't concede the point, you are an immoral person. That's why a lot of people have said Toth is bad. There was a slow motion with a pause when the ball landed in the video. There is a close up of the mark on the video. It was in. And everyone who is bad mouthing Toth is doing it because the ball was in and we all know she knew it was in and did not concede.
 

jimmy8

Legend
Did you watch the whole video? It is obvious from your reply that you did not. Zhang complained, the umpire went down and looked at the mark, and ruled it in. It was OVER at that point. Zhang could jump up and down all she wanted, but nothing would change that call. It was done. And then they played more points. And Zhang even won that game. But Zhang kept complaining. Toth did NOT wipe away the mark while the call was in dispute, but you won't admit that because it destroys your argument, which is based solely on the insinuation that Toth wiped the mark away while the point was in dispute. Moreover, you've decided, in your head, to villainize Toth, so you further go on to assume that Toth saw the ball in and therefore actually affirmatively cheated (somehow) by not voluntarily surrendering the point. I guess you're ignoring the, I don't know, 85 million arguments about line calls we've seen in professional tennis, where people see the ball differently? Geez. The umpire is the one at fault here, not Toth. Fire the ump, or the linesperson, but Zhang needs to be professional enough to overcome a bad call.
And you don't make someone cry and then celebrate. If you do that, everyone around you who saw you do that is going to look at you in disgust. That is what we did, looked at her in disgust.
 

jimmy8

Legend
Did you watch the whole video? It is obvious from your reply that you did not. Zhang complained, the umpire went down and looked at the mark, and ruled it in. It was OVER at that point. Zhang could jump up and down all she wanted, but nothing would change that call. It was done. And then they played more points. And Zhang even won that game. But Zhang kept complaining. Toth did NOT wipe away the mark while the call was in dispute, but you won't admit that because it destroys your argument, which is based solely on the insinuation that Toth wiped the mark away while the point was in dispute. Moreover, you've decided, in your head, to villainize Toth, so you further go on to assume that Toth saw the ball in and therefore actually affirmatively cheated (somehow) by not voluntarily surrendering the point. I guess you're ignoring the, I don't know, 85 million arguments about line calls we've seen in professional tennis, where people see the ball differently? Geez. The umpire is the one at fault here, not Toth. Fire the ump, or the linesperson, but Zhang needs to be professional enough to overcome a bad call.
Toth won that game by the way. That makes a difference.

If you made a child or adult cry and then started celebrating, everyone who saw you do that would look at you in disgust.

Yes, the next point was played so erasing the mark was ok, but Zhang asked her not to, but she went ahead and did it anyway. Then Zhang started crying as a result. Then she celebrated after making her cry. When she erased the mark, she may not have had Ill intent, but after she saw that the erasure made her cry and she still went ahead and openly celebrated, it makes her look mean-spirited, and that's why everyone came down on her.
 
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jimmy8

Legend
Did you watch the whole video? It is obvious from your reply that you did not. Zhang complained, the umpire went down and looked at the mark, and ruled it in. It was OVER at that point. Zhang could jump up and down all she wanted, but nothing would change that call. It was done. And then they played more points. And Zhang even won that game. But Zhang kept complaining. Toth did NOT wipe away the mark while the call was in dispute, but you won't admit that because it destroys your argument, which is based solely on the insinuation that Toth wiped the mark away while the point was in dispute. Moreover, you've decided, in your head, to villainize Toth, so you further go on to assume that Toth saw the ball in and therefore actually affirmatively cheated (somehow) by not voluntarily surrendering the point. I guess you're ignoring the, I don't know, 85 million arguments about line calls we've seen in professional tennis, where people see the ball differently? Geez. The umpire is the one at fault here, not Toth. Fire the ump, or the linesperson, but Zhang needs to be professional enough to overcome a bad call.
She even apologized for celebrating. You don't apologize if you did nothing wrong.
 
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