Amazing to think we should be at 21 or 22 slams for Federer and 14 for Djokovic

NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
Worst seasons :- Federer 2013 & 2016 , made 3 slam semis
Worst seasons :- Novak 2017 to 2018 June, made 0 slam semis
This is just lame cherrypicking and you know it. For one thing, Federer has about 4 seasons worst than 2016. Second, you're just stopping Djokovic's season in 2018 at RG because he rebounded, won 2 Slams and ended the year at #1. 2010 was a far worse season for Djokovic than any year where he won multiple Slams.
 

MeatTornado

Legend
To everyone with their "IF IF IF" retorts and really specific counter examples, the point of the thread is that Roger was literally 2 points away from this happening. That's a lot different from "if Novak didn't get injured" and projecting an entire tournament.
 

Shaj

Rookie
To everyone with their "IF IF IF" retorts and really specific counter examples, the point of the thread is that Roger was literally 2 points away from this happening. That's a lot different from "if Novak didn't get injured" and projecting an entire tournament.
There is nothing which says that your Hypothesis is stronger than the one held by others. its just objective. For example consider this, What if Novak got a correct advice regarding his elbow in 2016 itself, or he took the right decision then and there itself. Even this occurence was "close".

Elbow problem solved and healed by the end of 2016 and by beginning of 2017, back to kicking asses. 4 GS lost by start of 2017 to the middle of 2018. He would have been the lone ATG by now.


All these Hypothesis just looks silly. These are just glorified excuses, nothing else.
 

Imperator

Hall of Fame
Funny how "we should be at" actually means "what I wanted to happen". What happened is what should have happened. Nobody went back in time to stop Federer from winning.
 
This is just lame cherrypicking and you know it. For one thing, Federer has about 4 seasons worst than 2016. Second, you're just stopping Djokovic's season in 2018 at RG because he rebounded, won 2 Slams and ended the year at #1. 2010 was a far worse season for Djokovic than any year where he won multiple Slams.
I'm not picking seasons before either player bloomed..
So @Lew II kindly note that..
And nope, 2010 is not worse than 2017 for nole
 

vex

Hall of Fame
He left his peak at 26 years old, 12 years ago, yet has ended the next 9 out of 11 years in the top 3, won 8 Slams (40% of his total) and sits comfortably at #3 right now. That's some fall from the mountain.
IKR. The mental gymnastics to claim a permanent decline at 26 for the greatest ever....
 

NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
IKR. The mental gymnastics to claim a permanent decline at 26 for the greatest ever....
Yes they want to the claim that he's the greatest ever to remain, but as the greatest ever he left his peak as one of the youngest in the Open Era. It makes no sense.
 
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But it sure as heck is worse than 2018. 2010 and 2017 are Djokovic worst seasons since he became a top player.
Well, that's exactly what I've been saying.
Worst seasons since blooming.
And for other part, one of your fellow nole fans is saying that I can't separate 2018 nole in two seasons, which means that chung-Daniel-klizan etc took down the best player on the world.
Did djok even look like a top player in 2018 till june?????
Isn't that an insult of djok??
 

NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
Well, that's exactly what I've been saying.
Worst seasons since blooming.
And for other part, one of your fellow nole fans is saying that I can't separate 2018 nole in two seasons, which means that chung-Daniel-klizan etc took down the best player on the world.
Did djok even look like a top player in 2018 till june?????
Isn't that an insult of djok??
Djokovic had surgery in the early part of 2018 so not only are you cherrypicking when you include his losses around that time, you are deliberately dismissing what happened in the second part of that year once he got himself sorted out. After what he accomplished in 2018, it's just silly to try to use 2018 in any way to criticize him. He ended it at #1. It was an excellent year for him.
 
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thrust

Hall of Fame
If Federer had converted his match points with Djokovic in the 2011 U.S Open and 2019 Wimbledon. Djokovic loses 2 slams. Federer gains either 1 or 2 depending if he beats Nadal in the 2011 U.S Open final or not which is a toss up.

Federer even also lost match points vs Djokovic at the 2010 U.S Open, but Djokovic lost in the final there anyway, and Federer would have lost to Nadal in the final that year, so that one is a write off.
No player wins EVERY match they play. Roger has won 20 slams, he won them because he deserved to and he lost others because he deserved to. The same is true for every player, great or less than great. Could have, should have, would have, all mean nothing. It is the final result that counts, it always has been, always will be.
 

Djokodalerer31

Hall of Fame
No player wins EVERY match they play. Roger has won 20 slams, he won them because he deserved to and he lost others because he deserved to. The same is true for every player, great or less than great. Could have, should have, would have, all mean nothing. It is the final result that counts, it always has been, always will be.
This is only fair that way! We can also talk about all the "purely hypothetical" now matches, that Djokovic also should have won starting from 2012 US Open final and all the way up until Roland Garros 2019 semi-final! (Which Djokovic would have won if its not for the wind and weird weather conditions, which delayed match couple of times affecting and ruining each player's focuses') But whatever...according ot die hard Fed fans, its only for him acceptable to have this kind of hypothetical victories! Nobody else deserves it...
 

Third Serve

Hall of Fame
To the people mocking Federer for leaving his peak in 2007, I don't think you really appreciate how hard it is to sustain a level like that for four straight years. Djokovic had his own monster season in 2011 but he fell off and didn't return to that level until 2015. By your definition, Djokovic was at his peak for only two seasons, which is worse than being at it for four straight.

This is why we need to set up a "near-peak" range. It's impossible to say that Djokovic's 2012 season was peak level when he had other seasons that were so much better. Near-peak describes it better. You can define his whole 2012-2014 stretch as near-peak, as a matter of fact. Same with Federer for 2008-2010. I think Fed stopped being anywhere close to his peak after AO 2010 concluded. There are some outside years that could be described as near-peak (2012, 2017) but it's super hard to maintain that level of play which is why they never occur in consecutive years.
 

CYGS

Hall of Fame
Well, that's exactly what I've been saying.
Worst seasons since blooming.
And for other part, one of your fellow nole fans is saying that I can't separate 2018 nole in two seasons, which means that chung-Daniel-klizan etc took down the best player on the world.
Did djok even look like a top player in 2018 till june?????
Isn't that an insult of djok??
No, it just means you can't think logically.
 

MeatTornado

Legend
There is nothing which says that your Hypothesis is stronger than the one held by others. its just objective. For example consider this, What if Novak got a correct advice regarding his elbow in 2016 itself, or he took the right decision then and there itself. Even this occurence was "close".

Elbow problem solved and healed by the end of 2016 and by beginning of 2017, back to kicking asses. 4 GS lost by start of 2017 to the middle of 2018. He would have been the lone ATG by now.


All these Hypothesis just looks silly. These are just glorified excuses, nothing else.
But There's clearly a difference between getting your elbow fixed, rehabbing and winning 7 matches vs literally one inch of difference in one service point.

Theres a LOT more variables to navigate in the first scenario.
 

DSH

Hall of Fame
To everyone with their "IF IF IF" retorts and really specific counter examples, the point of the thread is that Roger was literally 2 points away from this happening. That's a lot different from "if Novak didn't get injured" and projecting an entire tournament.
If his rival in the final had been Roddick, Murray or Cilic, any of them 3 instead of Djokovic, Federer would have easily won his title at Wimbledon.
Only if...
:sneaky:
 

TheGhostOfAgassi

Talk Tennis Guru
If his rival in the final had been Roddick, Murray or Cilic, any of them 3 instead of Djokovic, Federer would have easily won his title at Wimbledon.
Only if...
:sneaky:
If it was only blue clay Federer would have won everything on clay
Not his fault he is having all these conspiracies against him
 

DSH

Hall of Fame
If it was only blue clay Federer would have won everything on clay :cautious:
Not his fault he is having all these conspiracies against him
The sample to which you allude (1 tournament only) is inefficient.
More examples and tests are needed to make the calculations and observations that are required in a statistical sample.
 

TheGhostOfAgassi

Talk Tennis Guru
The sample to which you allude (1 tournament only) is inefficient.
More examples and tests are needed to make the calculations and observations that are required in a statistical sample.
I was joking of course w that one. Thought people in here knew my preferences by know.
 

Enceladus

Hall of Fame
The tennis match is not completed until the MP is converted. That a tennis player creates an MP doesn't mean he has won the match, it is not a guarantee that he will win the match, he still has to earn one point extra. Many Fed fans have already seen Roger with a trophy, but on the other side of the network stood Djoker, a steel-nerve player, who kept his head cool in very difficult moments. Novak is only the second tennis player in the history of men's tennis after Rod Laver, who won at least two GS titles after saved MP. With the titles at US Open 2011 and Wimbledon 2019 is indeed associated with a bit of luck, but also mental courage.
 

KINGROGER

G.O.A.T.
Poor Fed fans having to resort to fantasy results to feel good.

Accept reality and enjoy what you have. It's vulnerable, but still pretty good.
Don’t need fantasy matches. Already have highest peak ever off clay, best sustained period of dominance ever, raised the bar in the GS race to 20 etc.

Djokovic, or even Nadal may well show us the best longevity ever in the current career inflation era
Fed raised his percentage when he was older than Djokovic's current age, reaching 13 semis in 19 slams since AO 2014.
2017 was not peak djokovic either.

Both had bad years. Overall Djokovic reached semis more easily.
1999-2002 shouldn’t really count lol. That’s like counting 2005-2006 for Djokovic, who posted results a lot earlier.
 

KINGROGER

G.O.A.T.
He left his peak at 26 years old, 12 years ago, yet has ended the next 9 out of 11 years in the top 3, won 8 Slams (40% of his total) and sits comfortably at #3 right now. That's some fall from the mountain.
Fed’s highest peak of tennis ever is hard to sustain with that tiny ancient racket, and precision style of play etc. No wonder his numbers dropped after 2007 and getting mono.

Easier for Djokovic to maintain close to his high level. Hit with margin & depth with 2HBH and rarely go for outright winners. Same with Nadal, run side to side hit heavy topspin moonballs and deep 2HBH shots.
 
Djokovic had surgery in the early part of 2018 so not only are you cherrypicking when you include his losses around that time, you are deliberately dismissing what happened in the second part of that year once he got himself sorted out. After what he accomplished in 2018, it's just silly to try to use 2018 in any way to criticize him. He ended it at #1. It was an excellent year for him.
No, it just means you can't think logically.
Why don't you guys try to get my point??
I'm not bashing nole at all..
2018 was not one, but two seasons for nole.
1st one being the continual of horror show that had been on since 2017 (or WTF2016 tbh)
2nd one being the start of his 3rd domination stretch which is still running to date...
 

CYGS

Hall of Fame
Why don't you guys try to get my point??
I'm not bashing nole at all..
2018 was not one, but two seasons for nole.
1st one being the continual of horror show that had been on since 2017 (or WTF2016 tbh)
2nd one being the start of his 3rd domination stretch which is still running to date...
No, just trying to point out your illogical attempt to compare Fed's two years with Djokovic's one and a half (the worse half cherrypicked) and conclude Fed's worst years are better. Not enough excuses can make up for your failed argument.
 
No, just trying to point out your illogical attempt to compare Fed's two years with Djokovic's one and a half (the worse half cherrypicked) and conclude Fed's worst years are better. Not enough excuses can make up for your failed argument.
It's not cherrypicking.... We were comparing which player is better in his low time periods...

Fed in his low times is much much better than djok in his low times..
Comparing just one season..
2016 fed :- 2 slam semis
2017 djok :- 0 slam semis, 2 quarters in which he ate a bagel & retired after 1.5 sets in another...
 

BrooklynNY

Hall of Fame
Not to mention, using this logic without Djokovic's run in the last year. Nadal would already be at 21 slams at this point. Winning Wimbledon 2018, AO 2019, and Roland Garros 2019 guaranteed.
 

SaintPetros

Hall of Fame
PETE would have had 18 or 19 slams if not for injury long before Fred came along.
Could, woulda, shoulda. That's life.
 

BrooklynNY

Hall of Fame
It's not cherrypicking.... We were comparing which player is better in his low time periods...

Fed in his low times is much much better than djok in his low times..
Comparing just one season..
2016 fed :- 2 slam semis
2017 djok :- 0 slam semis, 2 quarters in which he ate a bagel & retired after 1.5 sets in another...

uhhhh... Fed's worst season was 2013 - AO: Semi, FO: Qtrs W: 2nd US: 4th

Djokovic also actually had an INJURY - not just a terrible year - let's not ignore that
 

duaneeo

Hall of Fame
However 2011 I would say is 50-50. Federer was playing much better at the 2011 U.S Open and in 2010 in general (despite dropping from 2nd to 3rd, but the field was also much better in 2011) than in 2010. Nadal was much worse at the 2011 U.S Open than the 2010 U.S Open too. His serve in the final was horrible, which Federer despite being a weaker returner than Djokovic would capatilize on. Remember their match at Roland Garros that year was very close, maybe their closest ever there, so at the U.S Open Federer would have a good shot that year.
I say 70-30 Nadal...or higher. Rafa had the huge mental edge, and would've been a different player than he was against Nole (who had beaten him in 5 consecutive finals). And, with losses to Nadal at Roland Garros, Wimbledon, and the Australian Open, the pressure would've been mostly on Roger, and him getting so rattled in the semis doesn't indicate that he would've handled pressure well in the final.
 
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