American Jr Tennis why are we falling behind?

[PsychoTennisDad]

When I look at American College Tennis why are the rosters filled with foreign players. I'm just going to take a simple guess and say their just better players. Ok then that begs the question why?

Why are foreign kids in particular European and South American kids better in general than American players in Jr tennis? It's evident that a lot of these foreign players are playing in US colleges ? How many thousands of kids play competitive USTA tournaments consistently? What is it about their Jr development efforts that make their jr' s better than ours? Is it because only the upper middle class can afford to send the kids to high performance tennis academies? Is it because most of our top athletes play in other sports like football, basketball, and baseball? I've heard people say American kids are to spoiled they don't want it bad enough? blah blah blah. I'm just trying to understand why a country like ours with all of the resources, facilities, and coaches aren't producing better players. Is the USTA Jr Development program all to blame? I keep seeing efforts where (USTA) spends resources on programs that target a lower socio economic demographic to gain interest from kids that might not otherwise have the opportunity to play the sport. Don't get me wrong this is great but is it the answer? Seems like wasted effort if your trying to create the next Pete Sampras or Andre Agassi. Tennis takes a huge financial commitment over the span of many years to produce an elite tennis player. Wouldn't it make sense to create programs that cater to those families that have already made large commitments and where their is true unrealized potential? But unfortunately those kids cant afford the luxury to compete at the highest levels? Is it the way Tennis is taught here? Is it because Jr's in Europe use compression balls when there 8 and our kids use normal balls and moonball for the first 4 years of competitive tennis? (sorry that was more of a rant on 10s and 12's) so happy those years are behind us. Do European countries have some sort of dev program where they take all their young jr athletes and put them in IMG type facilities from a very young age? We do that too I suppose with homeschooling and performance academies? Those of us that can afford it do it here right? But this also limits most of the population from having access to these types of facilities because there so expensive.

Funny thing is even the rich foreign kids come to America to train at places like IMG or many of the other high performance academies. But the USTA with all of it's vast wealth and plethora of jr players competing tournaments on a weekly bases cant make it work?

Just wanted to open this up to discussion.

Thoughts on what could be done to make our jr's more competitive on a global scale?

 

[Moveforwardalways]

There are easier ways to make $$ as an American male athlete than tennis. Not so for women, which is why you see American women having more success. The $$ draws the best athletes. Michael Griffin (who, right?) safety for the Titans has a $35 million contract. A contract (doesn't have to win anything, it's a contract). On the ATP tour, you win or you don't eat.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

The Stanford tennis teams are still all homegrown players, I believe. Don't know if any of the other Div 1 teams are doing this. But then the Stanford men are no longer in the top 10 as they were more than a decade ago.

 

[mad dog1]

There are easier ways to make $$ as an American male athlete than tennis. Not so for women, which is why you see American women having more success. The $$ draws the best athletes. Michael Griffin (who, right?) safety for the Titans has a $35 million contract. A contract (doesn't have to win anything, it's a contract). On the ATP tour, you win or you don't eat.

true, but it's not all guaranteed money...

"Per a source with knowledge of the deal, the contract indeed has a base value of $35 million, but only $11.5 million is fully guaranteed. The other $3.5 million is guaranteed for injury only; it becomes fully guaranteed on the fifth day after the start of the 2013 waiver period.

In all, Griffin gets a $9 million signing bonus, a $2.5 million fully-guaranteed base salary in 2012, a $3.5 million base salary in 2013 guaranteed for injury only until next year, a $1 million roster bonus due on the 15th day of the 2013 league year, a $6.2 million base salary in 2014, a $6.3 million base salary in 2015, and a $6.5 million base salary in 2016."

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/03/griffins-deal-has-11-5-million-fully-guaranteed/

of course it's still more ludicrous than tennis where there are no guaranteed contracts just to play on the ATP tour.

 

[coupergear]

Soccer moms killed the US tennis star.

The 4, 5 and 6 year olds are playing youth soccer. They may not stay with soccer as older kids, they might move to other sports late elementary or into middle school, but they're playing soccer early. This 4,5,6 is exactly when kids need to be starting tennis to have any real shot. Game over.

 

[coupergear]

Oh yeah, and soccer moms are nice ladies. If their kid wants to play something else, fine, let's try something else. I believe there is a social bias in the US against crazy sports parents that didn't exist a few decades ago. It's not cool to be the parent in your kids face if they're not performing, forcing them to practice, not letting them have a life outside their sport--the very same qualities that tend to produce tennis stars.

 

[mad dog1]

Soccer moms killed the US tennis star.

The 4, 5 and 6 year olds are playing youth soccer. They may not stay with soccer as older kids, they might move to other sports late elementary or into middle school, but they're playing soccer early. This 4,5,6 is exactly when kids need to be starting tennis to have any real shot. Game over.

soccer is a great sport to have as a base for tennis. emphasis on footwork, agility, explosive speed, stamina...all things that are necessary for higher level tennis. the soccer kids just need to transistion to tennis at 6 or 7.

 

[GuyClinch]

Soccer has nothing to do with it. You could pick tennis up at 8 or 9 and still go pro. We don't get many top class athletes in tennis. James Blake trainer said he was a JAG - compared to the other pro athletes he trained.. And that's one of the better tennis 'athletes' the US has developed.

Follow the money - top 200 in baseball/football/basketball - all make more money then a top 100 tennis player.. a lot more money.. and the money is guaranteed - you don't even have to win. You would have to be an idiot to encourage your son to go into tennis if he was gifted athleticially.

We don't even get guys with Wes Welker/Edelman level athleticism playing tennis...Roddick could have pitched in the majors - that was a lucky break for US Tennis fans. But Mardy Fish? Come on... These guys don't have it..

 

[PsychoTennisDad]

We played soccer at 5 did it as a seasonal sport in a "fun league" we actually played all the seasonal sports up until he was 12 and made him choose what direction he wanted to "specialize". He got burned out of competitive baseball when one of his good friends got sent to the hospital being hit in the head with a kid pitched baseball. He phased out of competitive swimming. As a player and USPTA pro I naturally nudged him in this direction. We still play hoops and throw a baseball around but he would never go back.

Ok so we don't have the best athletes playing tennis. I'm assuming we can say the same for these other countries. Their best athletes seem to want to play soccer. But I believe Tennis is respected at a higher level in Europe than it is here. This only answers part of the question why are Jr tennis players from Europe and SA where they have a smaller gene pool, far less people, less resources, less facilities creating better players?

 

[GuyClinch]

^^^What say Croatian league pays as much as the NBA, NFL, MLB.. Novak didn't have those options - but he did have tennis. Yes other countries have popular sports but in terms of money tennis doesn't fare well here.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

We don't even get guys with Wes Welker/Edelman level athleticism playing tennis...Roddick could have pitched in the majors - that was a lucky break for US Tennis fans. But Mardy Fish? Come on... These guys don't have it..

Exactly, if even lower tier NFL/NBA players picked up a tennis racquet at 6, American tennis would be in strong shape. Look at the American guys (and some other countries too), none of them were ever going to make it in any other pro sport with serious $$ involved. Nick Kyrigos saying he should've played in the NBA? Get real, that's a pipe dream for him. Steve Johnson or Jack Sock playing pro soccer? Not a chance. The Bryan brothers making millions doing any other sport? Nope.

For all the reverence we have for the elite level of tennis (and they are all better than me), it's not near what it could potentially be if several generations of the worlds best athletes were engaged and pushed the game to new levels.

 

[heninfan99]

Taylor Fritz is great. He also seems to have his head together.
Can you list the foreign juniors who are better than him???

Fritz and Tommy Paul played in the US Open Jr. finals this year, beating kids from around the world in the process, so this nullifies your post.

When I look at American College Tennis why are the rosters filled with foreign players. I'm just going to take a simple guess and say their just better players. Ok then that begs the question why?

Why are foreign kids in particular European and South American kids better in general than American players in Jr tennis? It's evident that a lot of these foreign players are playing in US colleges ? How many thousands of kids play competitive USTA tournaments consistently? What is it about their Jr development efforts that make their jr' s better than ours? Is it because only the upper middle class can afford to send the kids to high performance tennis academies? Is it because most of our top athletes play in other sports like football, basketball, and baseball? I've heard people say American kids are to spoiled they don't want it bad enough? blah blah blah. I'm just trying to understand why a country like ours with all of the resources, facilities, and coaches aren't producing better players. Is the USTA Jr Development program all to blame? I keep seeing efforts where (USTA) spends resources on programs that target a lower socio economic demographic to gain interest from kids that might not otherwise have the opportunity to play the sport. Don't get me wrong this is great but is it the answer? Seems like wasted effort if your trying to create the next Pete Sampras or Andre Agassi. Tennis takes a huge financial commitment over the span of many years to produce an elite tennis player. Wouldn't it make sense to create programs that cater to those families that have already made large commitments and where their is true unrealized potential? But unfortunately those kids cant afford the luxury to compete at the highest levels? Is it the way Tennis is taught here? Is it because Jr's in Europe use compression balls when there 8 and our kids use normal balls and moonball for the first 4 years of competitive tennis? (sorry that was more of a rant on 10s and 12's) so happy those years are behind us. Do European countries have some sort of dev program where they take all their young jr athletes and put them in IMG type facilities from a very young age? We do that too I suppose with homeschooling and performance academies? Those of us that can afford it do it here right? But this also limits most of the population from having access to these types of facilities because there so expensive.

Funny thing is even the rich foreign kids come to America to train at places like IMG or many of the other high performance academies. But the USTA with all of it's vast wealth and plethora of jr players competing tournaments on a weekly bases cant make it work?

Just wanted to open this up to discussion.

Thoughts on what could be done to make our jr's more competitive on a global scale?

 

[coupergear]

Soccer has nothing to do with it. You could pick tennis up at 8 or 9 and still go pro. We don't get many top class athletes in tennis. James Blake trainer said he was a JAG - compared to the other pro athletes he trained.. And that's one of the better tennis 'athletes' the US has developed.

Follow the money - top 200 in baseball/football/basketball - all make more money then a top 100 tennis player.. a lot more money.. and the money is guaranteed - you don't even have to win. You would have to be an idiot to encourage your son to go into tennis if he was gifted athleticially.

We don't even get guys with Wes Welker/Edelman level athleticism playing tennis...Roddick could have pitched in the majors - that was a lucky break for US Tennis fans. But Mardy Fish? Come on... These guys don't have it..

I disagree with both your points.

Moms aren't thinking about how much money their kids will make when they go pro, and choosing sports accordingly--they are just looking for activities for their kids, and everybody else is doing soccer. Pro money has nothing to do with it. The possibility of going pro (in any sport) only happens much later in life when talent develops, or not.

The athleticism argument? Strange with all the knowledge on these boards, we still hear the refrain "If only our football or basketball pros had played tennis." or "If LeBron picked up a racket he could probably serve better than me in 6 weeks." I'm not sure where this comes from, maybe us out of shape rec players think if only we were more athletic our games would be better. Sorry, it's more about technique. That's why tennis ratings don't even consider mobility or athleticism--the fat 4.5 at 50 is going to bagel Wes Welker if you handed Welker a racket.

Tennis is like a combination of golf and ballet, it's nothing like football or basketball. It takes years of reps to master a very specific set of body movements, and racket skills training has to start at 4,5,6 to have any shot at being a top pro. You see many pros in basketball and football who started in middle school or even high school. The skills are not as difficult to master, and body development plays a far more dominant role. Look at the top tennis pros, they are all relatively slight, they're not bulked up behemoths. Yes, they are a bit taller than in past generations of tennis pros, as this helps service, but with too much height and the resulting mass, quickness starts to suffer...Isner/Raonic syndrome. The primary athletic skill needed in tennis (apart from racket skills) is quickness in the feet and quick bursts of speed around the court. People talk about quickness in the NFL or NBA, but it's relative. A player that is 250 lbs+ simply cannot stop and start as quickly as a lighter guy, it's basic physics. That's why you don't see 250 lb pro tennis players, its a disadvantage. The tennis court is a tight, defined space, not an open court or field.

It's about kids joining sports at that early age, and I believe soccer has taken a much larger bite out of the pie in the past 2 decades.

 

[sureshs]

Taylor Fritz is great. He also seems to have his head together.
Can you list the foreign juniors who are better than him???

Fritz and Tommy Paul played in the US Open Jr. finals this year, beating kids from around the world in the process, so this nullifies your post.

Yeah and the women are doing well too. Isner has beaten Federer at least twice that I remember. While Sock and Johnson may not be at the top level, it is a different world out there and nobody can predict these things. Fedalovic is a freak of nature.

 

[President]

Yeah and the women are doing well too. Isner has beaten Federer at least twice that I remember. While Sock and Johnson may not be at the top level, it is a different world out there and nobody can predict these things. Fedalovic is a freak of nature.

Even the second tier players from countries like Spain and France have had miles better careers than any current American player. David Ferrer has probably literally had a better career than the top 3 American men combined, the same goes for Tsonga. Gasquet has made 3 grand slam semifinals and has spent a lot of time in the top 10, Robredo has won a Masters and was #5 in the world, etc...It's not just the Big 4 that we are far behind on the men's side. Hopefully the next generation of American players is better, we do seem to have some promising juniors.

 

[sureshs]

We played soccer at 5 did it as a seasonal sport in a "fun league" we actually played all the seasonal sports up until he was 12 and made him choose what direction he wanted to "specialize". He got burned out of competitive baseball when one of his good friends got sent to the hospital being hit in the head with a kid pitched baseball. He phased out of competitive swimming. As a player and USPTA pro I naturally nudged him in this direction. We still play hoops and throw a baseball around but he would never go back.

Ok so we don't have the best athletes playing tennis. I'm assuming we can say the same for these other countries. Their best athletes seem to want to play soccer. But I believe Tennis is respected at a higher level in Europe than it is here. This only answers part of the question why are Jr tennis players from Europe and SA where they have a smaller gene pool, far less people, less resources, less facilities creating better players?

Let me give you a one-sided biased answer based on what I am seeing right now (this week) at a women's tournament that I am working.

It is HEAVILY loaded with women from Russia and Eastern Europe, and from countries they have emigrated to from there. There was a lady, a former coach from Bulgaria now settled in the US, who was talking to some of them when I was around, and the theme was that tennis is an opportunity to get out of the place, either I am doing it or my parents did it and got out so I could be in another place, and I can't let them down. The ambition to succeed against the odds of a stagnant life with no opportunities is very strong. This female coach herself was saying how she got out when she could no longer survive as a coach when the economy collapsed. The players themselves were talking about corrupt tennis federations and what it takes to get some kind of money to travel and play. These "girls" are very tough inside and determined to make it. Every loss hurts but makes them tougher. They have coaches from similar backgrounds who understand them and push them hard, sometimes unpleasantly, because they understand the motivation.

 

[TennisaGoGo]

It's about kids joining sports at that early age, and I believe soccer has taken a much larger bite out of the pie in the past 2 decades.

I don't think so. US soccer participation has been flat for 15 years. A six-year-old in 2000 is 21 today, but the team still seems to struggle against teams with 1/10th the population.

Here's my take on the reasons.

1. Parents have gotten too involved. My son plays baseball at a pretty high level. If you go into a pizza place after a big game and both teams are there - I challenge you to pick which one won and lost. Now - try that after a big tennis match when then winning kid is with his parents, and the losing kid is with his parents. How is that fun? TENNIS AGOGO'S ADVICE: Don't watch your kid at tournaments. Drop him off and pick him up. He'll tell you what he wants you to know. Let him have fun.

2. Line calls. Yes this is a an obscure one, but I think it's crucial to development. The way it's set up now, not all of our best kids aren't getting ranking points - but the bossiest ones are. This is why once linemen get involved at the professional level, many of our juniors get exposed. How does it make sense to invest all that money, only to have some brat call all the good shots out? All it does is encourage making safe shots 6 feet inside the line. TENNIS AGOGO'S ADVICE: Have a network of USTA volunteers to umpire at tournaments.

3. Adults hog all the free courts. In NYC, if my son and I try to go to a court, it's packed with weekend warriors. It'd be like going to a little league filed and seeing 40-year olds on it. So then I have to rent a court for $40/hour. Guess who's only playing one hour that week. TENNIS AGOGO'S ADVICE: Towns should have designated youth-only hours for tennis courts.

You institute those changes, and you'll have better US professionals.

 

[coupergear]

I don't think so. US soccer participation has been flat for 15 years. A six-year-old in 2000 is 21 today, but the team still seems to struggle against teams with 1/10th the population.

Here's my take on the reasons.

1. Parents have gotten too involved. My son plays baseball at a pretty high level. If you go into a pizza place after a big game and both teams are there - I challenge you to pick which one won and lost. Now - try that after a big tennis match when then winning kid is with his parents, and the losing kid is with his parents. How is that fun? TENNIS AGOGO'S ADVICE: Don't watch your kid at tournaments. Drop him off and pick him up. He'll tell you what he wants you to know. Let him have fun.

2. Line calls. Yes this is a an obscure one, but I think it's crucial to development. The way it's set up now, not all of our best kids aren't getting ranking points - but the bossiest ones are. This is why once linemen get involved at the professional level, many of our juniors get exposed. How does it make sense to invest all that money, only to have some brat call all the good shots out? All it does is encourage making safe shots 6 feet inside the line. TENNIS AGOGO'S ADVICE: Have a network of USTA volunteers to umpire at tournaments.

3. Adults hog all the free courts. In NYC, if my son and I try to go to a court, it's packed with weekend warriors. It'd be like going to a little league filed and seeing 40-year olds on it. So then I have to rent a court for $40/hour. Guess who's only playing one hour that week. TENNIS AGOGO'S ADVICE: Towns should have designated youth-only hours for tennis courts.

You institute those changes, and you'll have better US professionals.

I don't see it.

First, line calls and court time are an issue worldwide, probably far less court time in smaller nations, as well as less sense of fair play, so that is a wash, at best.

As for parents, you've got backwards, IMO. You need more involvement. You need crazy sports parents to drive tennis players, this has always been the pattern when you look at the pros. Tennis is a much tougher sell to kids than a high visibility sport where you have peer support. It's more akin to taking violin lessons--there may be some intrinsic motivation there, but most is driven by the parents. These days it's not as socially acceptable in the US to parent this way--I think more and more, kids are encouraged to do what they like, try stuff, have fun. Hopefully they can excel, but parents not driving for results as much as they used to be.

Even if soccer isn't the main culprit (I'm surprised to hear participation is flat) the same idea holds. Moms are looking for something the kids to do, and they just want the kids to have fun get exercise. They're choosing from a much wider set of choices today...heck, rock climbing and parkour are attracting kids these days. So the stereotypical crazy sports parent has faded on the youth sports landscape, and there are wider choices for youth athletics. Tennis is further and further down the hierarchy.

 

[coupergear]

Let me give you a one-sided biased answer based on what I am seeing right now (this week) at a women's tournament that I am working.

It is HEAVILY loaded with women from Russia and Eastern Europe, and from countries they have emigrated to from there. There was a lady, a former coach from Bulgaria now settled in the US, who was talking to some of them when I was around, and the theme was that tennis is an opportunity to get out of the place, either I am doing it or my parents did it and got out so I could be in another place, and I can't let them down. The ambition to succeed against the odds of a stagnant life with no opportunities is very strong. This female coach herself was saying how she got out when she could no longer survive as a coach when the economy collapsed. The players themselves were talking about corrupt tennis federations and what it takes to get some kind of money to travel and play. These "girls" are very tough inside and determined to make it. Every loss hurts but makes them tougher. They have coaches from similar backgrounds who understand them and push them hard, sometimes unpleasantly, because they understand the motivation.

Agree with this. In other countries it's still socially acceptable to drive your kid hard in sports, not so much in the USA anymore. I was just at a winter sports meeting of all parents at the local HS, the AD specifically lays down rules about not talking to coaches, not coaching your kid, deferring to your kids goals for sports not your own, not questioning coaches or refs, etc. The message was, it's their experience, not yours. Not so in other countries, where often it's a family affair--shared experience, shared goals.

 

[navigator]

Soccer moms killed the US tennis star.

The 4, 5 and 6 year olds are playing youth soccer. They may not stay with soccer as older kids, they might move to other sports late elementary or into middle school, but they're playing soccer early. This 4,5,6 is exactly when kids need to be starting tennis to have any real shot. Game over.

I kinda sorta agree with this. I'm not sure I agree with the ages stated above - but you may be right - but I agree that the emergence of youth soccer in the US was a big blow to US tennis.

(From earlier this year)

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/whats-wrong-with-us-tennis.527055/#post-9142147

 

[sureshs]

You need crazy sports parents to drive tennis players, this has always been the pattern when you look at the pros.

I don't see that as being applicable to Federer, Nadal or Djokovic, though Uncle Toni might be a little crazy?

 

[willeric]

Duplicate post....

 

[sureshs]

Agree with this. In other countries it's still socially acceptable to drive your kid hard in sports, not so much in the USA anymore. I was just at a winter sports meeting of all parents at the local HS, the AD specifically lays down rules about not talking to coaches, not coaching your kid, deferring to your kids goals for sports not your own, not questioning coaches or refs, etc. The message was, it's their experience, not yours.

It is a direct consequence of umpires being threatened or attacked by parents. Even with all the warnings and consequences, every junior Open tournament I have been involved him has had its share of illegal coaching, intimidation of opponent kid, mind games with umpires over line calls, etc. It is the parents who have themselves to blame for the extra precautions that have to be taken these days.

 

[willeric]

There's too many other options for kids here. Non-tennis playing parents are going to push their kids into baseball, basketball, football (and now soccer). Also, a lot of kids (and their parents) no longer participate in sports. All the kids here seem to just play video games and their parents are cool with that.

 

[heninfan99]

These options existed in Sampras' and Connors' eras too so I don't think that's the key.
We've never had our best athletes play the sport of tennis.

Right now our Juniors are the dominant players.
We had a lull, it's true, but the pendulum is swinging back now.
It usual goes back to the parents. Fritz has two tennis pros as parents.

There's too many other options for kids here. Non-tennis playing parents are going to push their kids into baseball, basketball, football (and now soccer). Also, a lot of kids (and their parents) no longer participate in sports. All the kids here seem to just play video games and their parents are cool with that.

 

[wannabe good]

It's a random fluctuation that caused this generation of American pros to be less successful than their European counterparts. It will even itself out soon.

Athletic talents for basketball and tennis are not the same. While there are arguably more talented basketball players among African Americans, the same is not true for tennis. The propensity for tennis aligns more with the European ancestry.

 

[sureshs]

It's a random fluctuation that caused this generation of American pros to be less successful than their European counterparts. It will even itself out soon.

Athletic talents for basketball and tennis are not the same. While there are arguably more talented basketball players among African Americans, the same is not true for tennis. The propensity for tennis aligns more with the European ancestry.

Like Tsonga, Monfils, Ashe, Gibson, Tiafoe, Serena, Venus, Young?

 

[wannabe good]

Like Tsonga, Monfils, Ashe, Gibson, Tiafoe, Serena, Venus, Young?

Women should not count. They are different. Yes, that's a comparably small number of people with recent African ancestry that excelled in tennis.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

3. Adults hog all the free courts. In NYC, if my son and I try to go to a court, it's packed with weekend warriors. It'd be like going to a little league filed and seeing 40-year olds on it. So then I have to rent a court for $40/hour. Guess who's only playing one hour that week. TENNIS AGOGO'S ADVICE: Towns should have designated youth-only hours for tennis courts.

fyi: Plenty of courts in the suburbs just 20-30m outside the northern part of manhattan or nj. during the spring/summer/fall the courts are always avail early in the morning... you're paying $40/hr for convenience to walk/subway to an indoor court. that said, nyc is probably not the place to be if you have a budding tennis star... the rest of the country has courts readily avail everywhere.

 

[WildVolley]

One thing I've noticed is that today's generation seems less athletic than past generations. I don't know if that is actually true, but it seems to be from my limited observation.

The two big changes are that 1) kids are discouraged from playing outside or on the school-grounds because parents are afraid something terrible will happen to them (in some cases, kids playing alone in parks will be reported to the police in the US. Seriously, you can look up these cases on the interwebs) and 2) video games and the internet has created a generation that is endlessly amused by looking at screens rather than playing sports.

Again, I don't know if any studies actually support my casual observations.

 

[Ash_Smith]

You aren't falling behind, you have some of the best junior players in the world.

 

[indianballer]

2 of the top juniors in the world are from NJ. Lol.

 

[heninfan99]

2 of the top juniors in the world are from NJ. Lol.

...as is Christina McHale.

 

[WildVolley]

Taylor Fritz is now on tour and ranked 176 in the world at age 18. Saw him play some this summer and it appeared he has a lot of room for improvement. He was legitimately over 6'4" tall and not particularly strong looking. He most likely will be able to put on more muscle and play a more physical game as he ages.

 

[GuyClinch]

The athleticism argument? Strange with all the knowledge on these boards, we still hear the refrain "If only our football or basketball pros had played tennis." or "If LeBron picked up a racket he could probably serve better than me in 6 weeks." I'm not sure where this comes from, maybe us out of shape rec players think if only we were more athletic our games would be better. Sorry, it's more about technique. That's why tennis ratings don't even consider mobility or athleticism--the fat 4.5 at 50 is going to bagel Wes Welker if you handed Welker a racket.

Don't be daft - when all the players are highly skilled - the more athletic player comes out ahead. Federer talks about how he would have been good at any sport - because he was always very athletic. Yes skills matter the most for rec players and skilled players beat unskilled.. But when all the players are skilled - athleticism can surge ahead.

A guy like Welker would be better at tennis then most rec players in a few months.. no joke.. I'd bet against Welker in a match vs. Sureshs right now. 1 hr teaching him to push would be enough..

It's not rocket science - get kids with good size with good athletic talent playing tennis and we would have great tennis again. Pete Sampras was an excellent athlete in the tennis world..

 

[sureshs]

Women should not count. They are different. Yes, that's a comparably small number of people with recent African ancestry that excelled in tennis.

And the pool is also very small and the circumstances have been historically different, so generalization is not possible.

 

[sureshs]

Don't be daft - when all the players are highly skilled - the more athletic player comes out ahead. Federer talks about how he would have been good at any sport - because he was always very athletic. Yes skills matter the most for rec players and skilled players beat unskilled.. But when all the players are skilled - athleticism can surge ahead.

A guy like Welker would be better at tennis then most rec players in a few months.. no joke.. I'd bet against Welker in a match vs. Sureshs right now. 1 hr teaching him to push would be enough..

It's not rocket science - get kids with good size with good athletic talent playing tennis and we would have great tennis again. Pete Sampras was an excellent athlete in the tennis world..

You can't tell the size before it is too late, and even if you could, that would not be acceptable to encourage/deny them.

 

[comeback]

Let me give you a one-sided biased answer based on what I am seeing right now (this week) at a women's tournament that I am working.

It is HEAVILY loaded with women from Russia and Eastern Europe, and from countries they have emigrated to from there. There was a lady, a former coach from Bulgaria now settled in the US, who was talking to some of them when I was around, and the theme was that tennis is an opportunity to get out of the place, either I am doing it or my parents did it and got out so I could be in another place, and I can't let them down. The ambition to succeed against the odds of a stagnant life with no opportunities is very strong. This female coach herself was saying how she got out when she could no longer survive as a coach when the economy collapsed. The players themselves were talking about corrupt tennis federations and what it takes to get some kind of money to travel and play. These "girls" are very tough inside and determined to make it. Every loss hurts but makes them tougher. They have coaches from similar backgrounds who understand them and push them hard, sometimes unpleasantly, because they understand the motivation.

I agree with this; And tennis is a lonely, grueling, overly pressured sport..For kids, only camaraderie with other kids can keep you going or you just obsessively love it so much....it's not as much fun until you're old enough to handle it

 

[sureshs]

I agree with this; And tennis is a lonely, grueling, overly pressured sport..For kids, only camaraderie with other kids can keep you going or you just obsessively love it so much....it's not as much fun until you're old enough to handle it

Even old guys often migrate to doubles for the social aspect.

 

[GuyClinch]

You can't tell the size before it is too late, and even if you could, that would not be acceptable to encourage/deny them.

Are you not familiar with the field of genetics? LMAO. Dad's encourage their sons all the time. Julian Edelman for example - his dad was a smaller guy but was always an exceptional athlete. So he was quite hard on his son growing up - really pushing him to do well in athletics.

This is a common story with pro athletes. Tennis players seem to dwell in this mythological world where athleticism and size is not an inherited trait.

 

[Lukhas]

Thoughts on what could be done to make our jr's more competitive on a global scale?

An actual, centralized and US wide program all clubs have to follow? Cheaper club memberships? Aiming to have a tennis club nearby for most people? For 270€ a year, I have full access to maintained outdoor courts whenever I "want" (granted there are spots available) with 1h30 lessons each week. And that's an adult price. Obviously the best equipped clubs with indoor heated courts could ask twice (I'm sure about that) or thrice that for a year (maybe a bit far fetched but not completely unrealistic). As a result, there are no real free courts in France, but basically almost every city has its tennis club, no matter how deserted it is in favour of more popular sports.
Dunno, but when I read about US tennis, I feel that everyone is doing its very own thing regardless for what others are doing. I feel the USTA has to take actual charge of it. And put the money they're wasting on their academy thing to good use: if they recognize players who may benefit from it, go fetch them and propose them to get on the bus. Roland-Garros and Melbourne Park aren't only used for the French and Australian Open... a big chuck on the junior programs of respectively France and Australia are based there. Obviously it can lead to the reverse extreme: players being "ostracised" a bit because they don't come from the nation's program and their upbringing was a bit more independent (Bartoli for instance and few Australian juniors in articles I've read and don't have under my hand). And compared to football (not handegg) or basket-balls, French parents don't even feel their kids are getting much tennis at all considering that they're sure to play "only" 1h30 per week; the rest is on their hands to find partners while the aforementioned sports have much more frequent competitions and week-end training sessions organized by the club.

EDIT: In other words, reducing a bit the "freedom" for a bit more and well applied "socialism". OTOH, Roddick believes it's rather cyclical and thinks it will pass.

 

[heninfan99]

I'm curious if Kozlov will get bigger.

As a side note, Bradley Klahn reached #63 in the world before his injuries, not bad for a college player but nevertheless our recent juniors have been excellent.

Taylor Fritz is now on tour and ranked 176 in the world at age 18. Saw him play some this summer and it appeared he has a lot of room for improvement. He was legitimately over 6'4" tall and not particularly strong looking. He most likely will be able to put on more muscle and play a more physical game as he ages.

 

[coupergear]

Don't be daft - when all the players are highly skilled - the more athletic player comes out ahead. Federer talks about how he would have been good at any sport - because he was always very athletic. Yes skills matter the most for rec players and skilled players beat unskilled.. But when all the players are skilled - athleticism can surge ahead.

A guy like Welker would be better at tennis then most rec players in a few months.. no joke.. I'd bet against Welker in a match vs. Sureshs right now. 1 hr teaching him to push would be enough..

It's not rocket science - get kids with good size with good athletic talent playing tennis and we would have great tennis again. Pete Sampras was an excellent athlete in the tennis world..

Again you're missing the point these are different sports they don't translate. Every sport has a body type ultimately that is suited to the best performance. In basketball clearly height --in football its size and strength and speed. In gymnastics its short and powerful and the best women have short careers during their early teens when weight/strength ratio is freakish. Tennis is different just getting bigger and stronger will not make you a better tennis player. Its about the kinetic chain as we talk about ad nauseum, muscles don't matter. There are diminishing returns with bigger, taller and heavier guys, they can't cover the court well. I think the sweet spot for tennis is fed nadal joker types, slight frames, moderately tall. Tall enough to have effective serves, light enough to move phenomenally within the court. So trend may keep moving towards taller players, but if they keep the courts slow, mid size guys will remain dominant. Anyone over 250? Forget it. Can't change direction fast enough.

 

[sureshs]

Are you not familiar with the field of genetics? LMAO. Dad's encourage their sons all the time. Julian Edelman for example - his dad was a smaller guy but was always an exceptional athlete. So he was quite hard on his son growing up - really pushing him to do well in athletics.

This is a common story with pro athletes. Tennis players seem to dwell in this mythological world where athleticism and size is not an inherited trait.

I was referring to selection by sponsors coaches, and USTA, not dad encouraging his short son. In fact, saying that it IS very important.

 

[meltphace 6]

Because you can.

 

[tennis_balla]

You guys talk about how people are weak in North America, how Eastern Euros and Russians have more drive because they "wanna get out". Yea, that worked maybe 30 years ago, not today.
The kids playing tennis full time in Russia are pretty well off. The ones that get to really train and leave the country are even better off. Just go to any big Spanish, French, US or German tennis academy and see how spoiled these Russian kids for example really are and how they think they own everything. Seen it, experienced it. It's quite amazing to witness. Not all, but in my experience the majority are.

If the Eastern Euros and Russians are so much more hungry in sports, then how come Canada in the last 15 years has stepped up their hockey program and dominated for example? I went to a Team Canada match here in Prague for the world championships this year, and read all the buzz surrounding the team and players. Sochi gold for them was dominance, and this last World Championships tournament was a complete joke (not my words), they're on another level above everyone else. Also they didn't even have all their top players. You guys should check out Hockey Canada Program of Excellence. Tennis Canada has also done amazing work in getting its players up there and there's a new generation waiting to surpass this one.

The biggest problem I see if you wanna talk about American tennis is they stopped evolving. They got lazy, comfortable. Not the players, but the people in charge. They didn't update their program, they didn't progress, they didn't move forward. They stagnated.

Take a look at this article written by @Ash_Smith about the All Blacks about a program being perfectly managed from the core.
http://www.superhumanperformance.org/blog/2015/11/1/allblacks

 

[GuyClinch]

There are diminishing returns with bigger, taller and heavier guys, they can't cover the court well. I think the sweet spot for tennis is fed nadal joker types, slight frames, moderately tall. Tall enough to have effective serves, light enough to move phenomenally within the court. So trend may keep moving towards taller players, but if they keep the courts slow, mid size guys will remain dominant. Anyone over 250? Forget it. Can't change direction fast enough.

No you are missing the point - you don't think super athletes like Allen Iverson would have done well in tennis? Welker etc etc. There are LOTS and LOTS of fantastic run jump athletes in tennis, basketball, baseball, football and hockey who would be FANTASTIC tennis players. But they didn't play tennis when they were a kid - so they didn't develop the skill.

You have to understand that guys shape their body to the sport. These 6' 6'2 cornerbacks and the like who go in at 210 pounds spend their entire off-season and season doing very hardcore strength training. That's because men are going to crash into them. If they were playing tennis - they wouldn't pack on that muscle and they would be more like Allen Iverson or Rajon Rondo in body type..

If we have two tennis players - one with lots of fast twitch muscle - good body control - great lateral movement and good skills and the other is some Mardy Fish.. Well who is going to win that battle?!

It doesn't matter that we are losing to friggin 'soccer' because most of those soccer playing kids come from parents who were lousy athletes anyway.. The true athletes in the US - they go with hockey, baseball, football or basketball at a young age. They are scouting NBA guys in 8th grade now.. no joke.

In the US all we get are rich boys who pick up the sport and get bank rolled by dad/mom. You are just not going to get the best athletes with a development system like that. Rich guys don't have some athletic advantage..

John McEnroe was the last great US tennis player to come out of NYC area - and both of his parents were doctors. That's the classic 'path' to tennis in the US - its still a country club sport here.

Tennis is the sport for people who don't need to make a living with their sport of choice.. If you want to make money - you pick something else..

 

[GuyClinch]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap20...ennis-prodigy-winds-up-as-no-1-high-school-qb

Classic case of losing decent athlete in tennis to football.

 

[indianballer]

You guys talk about how people are weak in North America, how Eastern Euros and Russians have more drive because they "wanna get out". Yea, that worked maybe 30 years ago, not today.
The kids playing tennis full time in Russia are pretty well off. The ones that get to really train and leave the country are even better off. Just go to any big Spanish, French, US or German tennis academy and see how spoiled these Russian kids for example really are and how they think they own everything. Seen it, experienced it. It's quite amazing to witness. Not all, but in my experience the majority are.

If the Eastern Euros and Russians are so much more hungry in sports, then how come Canada in the last 15 years has stepped up their hockey program and dominated for example? I went to a Team Canada match here in Prague for the world championships this year, and read all the buzz surrounding the team and players. Sochi gold for them was dominance, and this last World Championships tournament was a complete joke (not my words), they're on another level above everyone else. Also they didn't even have all their top players. You guys should check out Hockey Canada Program of Excellence. Tennis Canada has also done amazing work in getting its players up there and there's a new generation waiting to surpass this one.

The biggest problem I see if you wanna talk about American tennis is they stopped evolving. They got lazy, comfortable. Not the players, but the people in charge. They didn't update their program, they didn't progress, they didn't move forward. They stagnated.

Take a look at this article written by @Ash_Smith about the All Blacks about a program being perfectly managed from the core.
http://www.superhumanperformance.org/blog/2015/11/1/allblacks

Great article. Character and purpose. I will have to incorporate that into my coaching. If the soccer mom's don't object. . [emoji16]

 

[sureshs]

You guys talk about how people are weak in North America, how Eastern Euros and Russians have more drive because they "wanna get out". .... Tennis Canada has also done amazing work in getting its players up there

Tennis Canada benefited from immigration by people who had the hunger and wanted to get out. Here is an article which talks about Raonic, Nestor, Peliwo and Pospisil. They/their parents arrived with the genes and the hunger to succeed. And yes, I understand how much they owe to Canada, but I am also not blind to pretend not to know their background which comprises the Balkans and Poland. It is the same theme I am seeing in the women's tournament now and talking to those who have gotten out or are getting out. It is very much happening today. Everything is not about Spanish drills or supposedly incompetent American coaches. These are just marketing tactics to sell academies. Quality of student input is the main thing and as many have noted already, the best in the US go to other sports.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/news/montreal-2015-new-canadian-identity-feature

Like Raonic (who was born in Podgorica, Montenegro), Nestor’s story began not in Canada, but in the former Yugoslavia.

“In the seventies, things were good in Yugoslavia. My parents had good jobs and we had a good lifestyle, but the living arrangements in Belgrade were fairly cramped. My dad’s brother had already moved to Canada, so they knew that Canada was a growing country and that it was an opportunity to have a larger home and give their kids different kinds of opportunities that they didn’t have growing up,” said Nestor, who was four when he and his parents moved to Ontario, Canada.

In 2009, the program welcomed Vancouver, B.C.’s Filip Peliwo to the fold. Son of Polish immigrants, Peliwo was introduced to the sport at a young age by his father, an avid recreational player.

Peliwo followed in the footsteps of a certain Vasek Pospisil from Vernon, a town five hours north-east of British Columbia’s metropolis.

Despite a four-year age gap, both men had much in common. They shared Eastern European heritage (Pospisil’s father Milos had furtively driven his young family across the Czechoslovakian border in search for a better life),