American Jr Tennis why are we falling behind?

BMC9670

Hall of Fame
I think clay is certainly a component that is largely missing in the US, but the club system is important to early development in Europe. This is real grass-roots level development as kids grow up around tennis first as a social setting which transitions through learning/mentoring into competition. The club culture is very different in Europe than, say the country-club culture here in the US. It accessible to regular people and not just the rich. Look at the professions of many European, Eastern European and South American pros. Many are middle class. Here in the US, tennis is too expensive and one big reason, IMHO is that there is no club culture or system.
 
^yes. The list of US kids with good coaching and superb work ethic is limited. Among them are the kids you mentioned, who come from wealth. They get to go on sweet vacations, attend demanding academic institutions, and cannot devote as much time to tennis training as their foreign counterparts. They get edged by a kid more used to hustling and grinding.

To "make America great again", in tennis, I am for kids who are humble, hungry, and hardworking ...kids who just slurp up every pearl of wisdom the coaches drop, kids who train like dogs....and never burn out when it is time to climb.

Ernests Gulbis is from a wealthy family but he succeeded anyway. How did he do it? Must have a screw loose. He put the comfort aside and trained his rear off?

I like the clay angle, but the canadians, sans a ton of terre battue, have reared a strong cadre of young pros, all from immigrant families. Nestor, Dancevic, peliwo, raonic, pospisil. Probably a few more on the horizon.

Well, the USA is looking good in jrs. This stuff could just be cyclical. As much as i love clay, and i like that sand hill the usta has in carson...culture and parenting is what it is going to come down to.
 
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user92626

G.O.A.T.
^yes. The list of US kids with good coaching and superb work ethic is limited. Among them are the kids you mentioned, who come from wealth. They get to go on sweet vacations, attend demanding academic institutions, and cannot devote as much time to tennis training as their foreign counterparts. They get edged by a kid more used to hustling and grinding.

To make America great again, in tennis, I am for kids who are humble, hungry, and hardworking ...kids who just slurp up every pearl of wisdom the coaches drop, kids who train like dogs....and never burn out when it is time to climb.

Ernests Gulbis is from a wealthy family but he succeeded anyway. How did he do it? Must have a screw loose. He put the comfort aside and trained his rear off?

It's a paradox.

The point of getting rich is to make your life easy. That's exactly what you get with rich kids.

When you are poor, you tend to be humble, hungry and hardworking. I don't think America is short of those poor kids. But why aren't they showing up?
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
BBall is more accessible to young great athletes than tennis. Plenty of 6'6" athletes in late junior high, early high schools.
 

MarTennis

Semi-Pro
Soccer moms killed the US tennis star.

The 4, 5 and 6 year olds are playing youth soccer. They may not stay with soccer as older kids, they might move to other sports late elementary or into middle school, but they're playing soccer early. This 4,5,6 is exactly when kids need to be starting tennis to have any real shot. Game over.
My son's coach believes this theory along with Adult League tennis dominating club courts and discouraging the parents from spending time in tennis with their kids.
 

MarTennis

Semi-Pro
Exactly, if even lower tier NFL/NBA players picked up a tennis racquet at 6, American tennis would be in strong shape. Look at the American guys (and some other countries too), none of them were ever going to make it in any other pro sport with serious $$ involved. Nick Kyrigos saying he should've played in the NBA? Get real, that's a pipe dream for him. Steve Johnson or Jack Sock playing pro soccer? Not a chance. The Bryan brothers making millions doing any other sport? Nope.

For all the reverence we have for the elite level of tennis (and they are all better than me), it's not near what it could potentially be if several generations of the worlds best athletes were engaged and pushed the game to new levels.
This is sadly true. Roddick and Blake are the only 2 I can envision being pro in another sport. Maybe Tommie Paul but I haven't seen enough.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Soccer and basketball are excellent sports to provide youngsters with good quick footwork and movement. BBall is you play guard or forward.
 

MarTennis

Semi-Pro
Does anyone think that the risk of injury is much higher in basketball and football? When I hear about broken bones and concussions, I wonder how parents feel comfortable letting their sons play on? Tennis is a sissy sport and relatively much safer, that is what I feel.
It's the 21st Century. Sissy is just silly.
 

MarTennis

Semi-Pro
I hear you and pay my share with 2 kids in it. Gotta get creative for sure. As I mentioned before, some sections give a little back through scholarships, just gotta know where to look.

Speaking of whining, has your kid ever played a team sport? Multiply what you hear in tennis by a whole team of parents whining about playing time, bad coaches, team politics, bad referees, cheating, recruiting, etc, etc. My kids went through it in soccer and basketball. Ugh.
Even tennis people idealize other sports. Bands of foolish parents can be found everywhere in youth sports.
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
It's all cultural. Honestly it may be something as simple as seeing guys on TV playing the sport in all white collared polo shirts, headbands, and walking around with sport jackets with their initials on them (RF, etc). That stuff may fly in Europe but in the USA guys see that and immediately think "pussie sport". It can't compare with the street cred that basketball and football get. It has probably helped some that Andy Murray got with Under Armor and is wearing more regular looking athletic clothes that kids in America playing other sports can relate to.

Overall, it may be as simple as the players you see on TV look like they'd be eaten alive in an Oklahoma drill.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Football is a collision sport, so it can take it's toll on the human body and brain.
Basketball is generally pretty safe...compared to football, but we've seen cracked kneecaps and sprained ankles, with a few concussions.
Tennis is obviously safer, but so is staying home and playing video games. Talking on the body.
Safe is a girl's thing (moms). Is motocross safe? Is hang gliding safe? Is racing car's safe? Is fighting in school safe?
But it's a heck of a lot of fun, when you're successful.
 
Azaria Hayes, interviewed at the Juneteenf celebration in Berzerkeley, CA.

Which begs the question....
Is this interview Berkeley enough?
Yo, I'm not a doubter. I wear real blue, not powder.
 
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BMC9670

Hall of Fame
When you are poor, you tend to be humble, hungry and hardworking. I don't think America is short of those poor kids. But why aren't they showing up?

Because they cannot afford to show up. Little to no tennis programs in poor areas, none in primary and very little in middle schools, no club systems, lessons are expensive, tournaments are expensive, and what's the payoff? Slim to none. So compare that to popular team sports that are played everywhere from very young ages - on playgrounds, in primary and middle schools, club programs, etc. Many more kids on teams make it more affordable. And there are higher chances of payoff in college or pro. Tennis in the US is not built for the masses of kids and reaching an elite level is just not accessible to most.
 

LakeSnake

Professional
BBall is more accessible to young great athletes than tennis. Plenty of 6'6" athletes in late junior high, early high schools.
When I drop my six-year old off at school, I see a large scrum of boys playing football. There are a handful of kids with basketballs shooting hoops. There is always a crowd at the two four-square locations. No one playing tennis.
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
When I drop my six-year old off at school, I see a large scrum of boys playing football. There are a handful of kids with basketballs shooting hoops. There is always a crowd at the two four-square locations. No one playing tennis.
Interestingly, at the bus stop (on a deadend street), I'd got into the habit of taking a handful of kids racquets out, and playing the "bump it up drill" or "basic volley drills" with the kids.... inspired, 2-3 of them went out to get group tennis lessons... They definitely introduce tennis at more affluent schools (eg. middle schools that can afford courts on premise), but for the most part, I agree, I don't see it.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Hey I know those girls! Are you working with Azaria?

No, but I should be. I talk with Steve the Dad once a week, much more in the previous 4 years. He agrees with almost every point I make concerning the girl's games.
I've hit with Az a lot, played over 20 sets of doubles against, and started two singles sets with her that came out ending at 4's. She had to go, for some reason.
I mainly play with Ays, who can hit harder, but doesn't put it together upstairs quite as well.
Both need lots of help with the serves, as they are quite forehand grip oriented, and snap the body too early, hitting the serve while the body is arched beyond it's effectiveness. Contact point should be body straight, but leaning into the court. They lack the ab crunch that straightens the torso at impact.
I talked Ays to start hitting a 2hbh instead of the 1hbh her Dad wanted her to hit, 4 years ago. She hit's 2hbh about 70% of the time. Even Az is doing it sometimes now.
One of their weekly coach's only hit's 2hbh, so why not the girls?
Both still need drilling on conti grip volleys, not defensive pokes.
I can let them decide how and where to hit their groundies, but I"d start them out adding a bit of loop to their backswing, not a full on Gonzo loop, but a slight raised head of the racket.
 

LakeSnake

Professional
No, but I should be. I talk with Steve the Dad once a week, much more in the previous 4 years. He agrees with almost every point I make concerning the girl's games.
I've hit with Az a lot, played over 20 sets of doubles against, and started two singles sets with her that came out ending at 4's. She had to go, for some reason.
I mainly play with Ays, who can hit harder, but doesn't put it together upstairs quite as well.
Both need lots of help with the serves, as they are quite forehand grip oriented, and snap the body too early, hitting the serve while the body is arched beyond it's effectiveness. Contact point should be body straight, but leaning into the court. They lack the ab crunch that straightens the torso at impact.
I talked Ays to start hitting a 2hbh instead of the 1hbh her Dad wanted her to hit, 4 years ago. She hit's 2hbh about 70% of the time. Even Az is doing it sometimes now.
One of their weekly coach's only hit's 2hbh, so why not the girls?
Both still need drilling on conti grip volleys, not defensive pokes.
I can let them decide how and where to hit their groundies, but I"d start them out adding a bit of loop to their backswing, not a full on Gonzo loop, but a slight raised head of the racket.
Is that as much work as Macci did with Serena? :)
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
Has anyone setup, or know of an organization setup for youth tennis, that doesn't cost an arm and a leg?

So in my town, youth soccer is the craze. I volunteer coach both my kids teams, and even have to pay the privilege to do so (for background check etc...). It costs $150/per kid for fall/spring season, consisting of 10 practice days, and 10 game days. There are over 1000 kids in the program, and the money typically goes back into uniforms, taking care of soccer fields, equipment, training, etc... But in general the non-profit-organization is generating huge revenues (say $50-100k net year after year)... largely I think because:
1. the cost per kid is cheap (considering a couple tennis or music lessons is easily over $150), so many parents see huge value
2. large force of volunteer parents (most of us don't know anything about soccer, except what we google or youtube)
3. passionate parents who organize (even well after their kids are out of program)
4. town is willing to give up land use in exchange for $ to maintain

so I'm wondering if something similar could be set up for tennis? Anyone else think it's possible?

Perhaps we need more Spartak's in the US:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/russias-unlikely-tennis-nursery/article4090404/
http://thetalentcode.com/2009/03/30/spartak/
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/04/s...087&em&en=1e41358ccd6ae29a&ex=1173243600&_r=0
 
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BMC9670

Hall of Fame
Has anyone setup, or know of an organization setup for youth tennis, that doesn't cost an arm and a leg?

So in my town, youth soccer is the craze. I volunteer coach both my kids teams, and even have to pay the privilege to do so (for background check etc...). It costs $150/per kid for fall/spring season, consisting of 10 practice days, and 10 game days. There are over 1000 kids in the program, and the money typically goes back into uniforms, taking care of soccer fields, equipment, training, etc... But in general the non-profit-organization is generating huge revenues (say $50-100k net year after year)... largely I think because:
1. the cost per kid is cheap (considering a couple tennis or music lessons is easily over $150), so many parents see huge value
2. large force of volunteer parents (most of us don't know anything about soccer, except what we google or youtube)
3. passionate parents who organize (even well after their kids are out of program)
4. town is willing to give up land use in exchange for $ to maintain

so I'm wondering if something similar could be set up for tennis? Anyone else think it's possible?

There is NJTL though the USTA, but it doesn't even come close to team sports programs. The player/cost ratio just isn't the same. Team sports spread the cost among many.

Similar to your soccer league, my son also plays competitive basketball. He has played in three different programs, all close by and easily accessible.

1. Elementary and Middle School program - these cost us $35-$65 per season and consisted of 2 practices per week and 6 games (elementary school) and 4 practices a week and 8 games (middle school) in nice gyms, qualified coaches, and 2 refs per game.

2. Boys and Girls Club League. Played this when he was 10-11 and only $60 per season - 2 practices per week and 8 games. Nice gyms, parent coaches, and 2 refs per game.

3. YMCA League. Highly competitive "travel team" when he was 12-13. Great competition city-wide. Cost us $95 per season - 3 practices per week, 10 games, 2 tournaments. Nice gyms, high-school coach, and 2 refs per game.

Just can't match that in tennis.
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
There is NJTL though the USTA, but it doesn't even come close to team sports programs. The player/cost ratio just isn't the same. Team sports spread the cost among many.

Similar to your soccer league, my son also plays competitive basketball. He has played in three different programs, all close by and easily accessible.

1. Elementary and Middle School program - these cost us $35-$65 per season and consisted of 2 practices per week and 6 games (elementary school) and 4 practices a week and 8 games (middle school) in nice gyms, qualified coaches, and 2 refs per game.

2. Boys and Girls Club League. Played this when he was 10-11 and only $60 per season - 2 practices per week and 8 games. Nice gyms, parent coaches, and 2 refs per game.

3. YMCA League. Highly competitive "travel team" when he was 12-13. Great competition city-wide. Cost us $95 per season - 3 practices per week, 10 games, 2 tournaments. Nice gyms, high-school coach, and 2 refs per game.

Just can't match that in tennis.
Yes, currently private tennis club instruction costs are too costly compared to team sports programs... but could we come up with something that can compete?
* $100/season - 1 practice, 1 game day (not necessarily sets, but some competitive format that gets alot of kids playing at once)
* 6 courts x 6kids per court x 7hrs on the weekend... 252kids (per season)
* parents volunteer, we teach them the basics, or maybe he hire coaches/tennis enthusiasts
* put the $200k back into maintaining courts, better coaching, etc...
The 2 main reasons team sports are so cost effective I think are: volunteer coaches, donated gym time... Once you start trying to profit from this, volunteers and a (free-ish) place to play go away...

Unless we can get the cost of participation at the youth level down to similar costs of team sports, tennis will never attract the top talent... whereas, in places like russia, where you have ex-stars teaching at run-down tennis clubs (see my Spartak links above) that I'm guessing are much more cost-effective (than private clubs in the US).
 

LakeSnake

Professional
Has anyone setup, or know of an organization setup for youth tennis, that doesn't cost an arm and a leg?

So in my town, youth soccer is the craze. I volunteer coach both my kids teams, and even have to pay the privilege to do so (for background check etc...). It costs $150/per kid for fall/spring season, consisting of 10 practice days, and 10 game days. There are over 1000 kids in the program, and the money typically goes back into uniforms, taking care of soccer fields, equipment, training, etc... But in general the non-profit-organization is generating huge revenues (say $50-100k net year after year)... largely I think because:
1. the cost per kid is cheap (considering a couple tennis or music lessons is easily over $150), so many parents see huge value
2. large force of volunteer parents (most of us don't know anything about soccer, except what we google or youtube)
3. passionate parents who organize (even well after their kids are out of program)
4. town is willing to give up land use in exchange for $ to maintain

so I'm wondering if something similar could be set up for tennis? Anyone else think it's possible?

Perhaps we need more Spartak's in the US:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/russias-unlikely-tennis-nursery/article4090404/
http://thetalentcode.com/2009/03/30/spartak/
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/04/s...087&em&en=1e41358ccd6ae29a&ex=1173243600&_r=0

Don't think it's possible to beat soccer. Futbol is cheap, that's one reason it's so popular across the world. You can fit 20 or more kids in one basketball court (5-on-5 halfcourt X2), but it's hard to fit more than 4 on a tennis court, right? Strangely, don't see too many adults playing soccer, even those who played as kids. I'm not trying to discourage you, certainly much more could be done.

Here in Tempe, I think it was $35 for 6 weeks of once a week lessons for beginning children. There is a youth academy with reasonable prices. $75/month, they can go every day. I think most of the teachers are normal teaching pros, but they might be getting a little help from volunteers.

http://www.tempe.gov/city-hall/comm...creation-centers/tennis/junior-tennis-academy

EDIT: Also, this is mean, but do you think any adults think: man, if we teach a horde of 10 year olds how to play tennis, how are we going to get court time?
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Is that as much work as Macci did with Serena? :)

The girl's could use a ton of work in other areas, besides just the serve and the volleys. But their coach's are focusing only on their baseline game, and Ays is getting half the coaching, but close to equal quality hitting so her game is stagnating.
Starting with ready stanes, earlier recognition and first step, to ROS strategies, they are still very raw in their tennis development.
 
What are they learning from you, Lee? What points are you and Steve agreeing upon?

Did you see that interview from juneteenf in Berkeley?
I am happy you are not a yes man like that poor, sweet interviewer.
 
As a guy who played, then coached, then mentored, etc....(just got off the court after drilling with some ranked juniors, i absolutely respect the research. I have seen it. I even indirectly know Tyler, the guy who wrote the study.

Here is my take. Ranked Tennis kids in the us are often athletic loners. Some are unathletic. Some are late bloomers. Most got into tennis because of their parents. Some, because the team sports were NOT a fit. Most are bright, disciplined and self-motivated. Some could not punch their way out of a paper bag...or stand out and perform confidently in a group presentation. I see that as nature.
Then the nurture side of the equation is well represented in the article.

And now, so many of the good players in 16s and 18s are homeschooled. Less and less social. More and more alone. Nurturing the anxious kid within the kid. This was much, much less the case in the seventies and eighties when we specialized later and made friends all the time.

If i may add...
Tons of kids who have never stepped on a court are afraid of the phone and avoid eye contact. So it is not just tennis. But again, the article is built on solid research, and it deals with tennis kids, not the general populace.
 
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^Video games existed in the eighties.^ Sampras, agassi, chang, courier, mal washington and martin spent a good part of the nineties in the top ten.

Kidding. you made a well-researched point that needs to be made.
Video games represent a whole new level of commitment now. Different world from when you dropped half a roll of quarters at some dank arcade in 1983.

Half the time, we spent the time between matches playing chess or four square. Or volley rallying, practicing dives on grass. Or chucking a football back and forth. Table tennis if the tennis ctr had a table or two. I miss those days.
 

shindemac

Hall of Fame
American Jr Tennis why are we falling behind?

Video Games

I know some coaches have made this observation on here. It's reasonable to believe some of the blame lies on this.

Another possibility is the increase of helicopter parents. Despite the stats saying crime per capita is lower now than 20 years ago (the parents generation when they were kids), less parents let their kids roam and play outside unattended. This is really important because really basic skills like walking and running must be learned.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
I know some coaches have made this observation on here. It's reasonable to believe some of the blame lies on this.

Another possibility is the increase of helicopter parents. Despite the stats saying crime per capita is lower now than 20 years ago (the parents generation when they were kids), less parents let their kids roam and play outside unattended. This is really important because really basic skills like walking and running must be learned.

Apart from crime, there is the issue of crazy traffic
 

BMC9670

Hall of Fame
Don't think it's possible to beat soccer. Futbol is cheap, that's one reason it's so popular across the world. You can fit 20 or more kids in one basketball court (5-on-5 halfcourt X2), but it's hard to fit more than 4 on a tennis court, right? Strangely, don't see too many adults playing soccer, even those who played as kids. I'm not trying to discourage you, certainly much more could be done.

Another thing about youth soccer is.... IT'S EASY! Parents can drop their 5 year old off at soccer practice and know that they can run and kick a ball. They will get exercise, they will learn basic athletic skills, and they will socialize through a team atmosphere. Drop your 5 year old off at tennis and sure there may be a little "fitness" for exercise, but most the time spent will be standing in line waiting, or standing there trying to learn to hit the ball, or standing there trying to play a match while the ball rarely goes over the net. Parents want instant results. Beginner soccer doesn't even have goalies, so there is scoring and instant success in a game. Not so with tennis.

This is why I think you see most kids who stick with tennis and get good are taught first by a parent and then handed off to a program or coach when they can actually play. Most of the beginner groups don't hold kids - too much standing and not enough instant success.
 

julian

Hall of Fame
Another thing about youth soccer is.... IT'S EASY! Parents can drop their 5 year old off at soccer practice and know that they can run and kick a ball. They will get exercise, they will learn basic athletic skills, and they will socialize through a team atmosphere. Drop your 5 year old off at tennis and sure there may be a little "fitness" for exercise, but most the time spent will be standing in line waiting, or standing there trying to learn to hit the ball, or standing there trying to play a match while the ball rarely goes over the net. Parents want instant results. Beginner soccer doesn't even have goalies, so there is scoring and instant success in a game. Not so with tennis.

This is why I think you see most kids who stick with tennis and get good are taught first by a parent and then handed off to a program or coach when they can actually play. Most of the beginner groups don't hold kids - too much standing and not enough instant success.
I completely disagree with last two sentences
Are you in States?
 
Funny. soccer is easy to start...Tough to finish. American parents love it because it is easy for American kids to start. But american sports fans hate soccer because there is not enough scoring.

~Ninety minutes, kicking the ball back and forth...and at the end, the Germans always win.~

------------
I am tired of how bad US tennis is. I think, like any other country, we have hardworking kids, talented kids, unmotivated kids, and some driven kids. Kids with resources and no hunger. Kids with hunger and resources. We are a huge country but we are too spread out for proper national level training.

All we seem to know for sure is that we are blessed with a TON of excuses, reasons, distractions ... and other options.

And the ones who do best here are the sons and daughters of immigrants. Or the ones who do not value education much, so they play a ton.

Impressively, some of the families whose kids work hard at tennis, also are great in school. I admire those families. Tough as nails. good players. Well educated. Good job prospects.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Did some particular racket manufacturer get the contract?


http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2015...ackets-to-find-new-talent/57067/#.VnQdU1QrJdg

LONDON (AP) Britain is launching a new drive to develop young tennis talent in the wake of the country's Davis Cup success.

The Lawn Tennis Association says it will hand out 10,000 free rackets and offer 10,000 free junior tennis courses across the country.

The LTA says it will also take the Davis Cup trophy on a tour to 50 different venues around Britain.

The program announced Friday follows harsh criticism of the LTA for failing to develop world-class talent.
 

BMC9670

Hall of Fame
^^^ That's a good thing, although it sounds more like the LTA responding to criticism by saying "look, we won Davis Cup!". One guy won Davis Cup for GB. One. Andy scored all 3 points.
 
Not only did Andeh Murreh score all three in Ghent in the final, the boy was responsible for 11 rubbers in GB Davis Cup in 2015. Not sure if that's even been done before. Four rds, so i suppose twelve is possible. Remarkable effort. Charges up his mates, too.

If he was with nike, they'd have a tee shirt with his likeness,
"This one goes to eleven."

While i understand he did not have to face elite opposition, the man played with courage, leadership, and long-suffering. Well done, Andeh. First ballot hall of famer, Knighthood one day, and will be mentioned in the pantheon of tennis legends despite a humble slam count.
 

Ash_Smith

Legend
^^^ I spoke with Judy a couple of days after to see if the town of Dunblane (pop. c6,000) would get a trophy of it's own seeing as it had basically won the Davis Cup single handedly, she said not, but the boys each got replica to keep.
 

Curiosity

Professional
Has anyone setup, or know of an organization setup for youth tennis, that doesn't cost an arm and a leg?....

The USTA-sponsored Arthur Ashe Tennis Centers seem to dominate urban inexpensive tennis for kids. At least in my area, Philadelphia, they have very good indoor facilities and staff, and they charge little. From there you have to jump to the expensive private clubs if the kids are to play year-round. In the middle, the real middle class suburbs, there isn't much.

Youth competitive tennis is ruined by lots of things in the U.S. I agree with BMC9670, above, that the Euro club system is much more conducive to building an attractive environment for tennis-playing kids. I've played for many summers (Augusts..) at a Spanish club. The kids take over the courts for three hours, then the pool. The program seems to be packed every year. Lunch is included. It's social but not particularly expensive. The club has attracted a number of the best junior players from the south. Two years ago it had the number one 16s boy.

The Spanish Tennis Federation does a good job of funneling funding to local clubs. They subsidize local youth coaching and control the quality. They do NOT pull all the best juniors into a national mega-complex. Good local coaches have a decent existence. On the other hand, schools do not get involved in sports. Schools and sports are separate worlds.

The biggest problem I saw in US juniors was this: Technique does matter, and lessons are important. If a parent takes a kid with fairly average athletic ability (hand/eye, fast-twitch muscle%, etc.) and puts them in lessons three hours a day, six days a week (I saw a good number of these)...that kid is, after two or three years of year-round tennis, going to clobber any kid, even an older one, even an extremely sports-talented kid, who comes in late and with only a two days-a-week program. This is NOT true in football, and in basketball most kids can provide themselves with as much time as they want on court. If they don't have good B ball in their neighborhood, they can do as Larry Byrd did and go to a rougher tougher part of town where they actually play good ball.

It isn't essential to play tennis at 5 or 7 or even 9. We've seen great champions that started later. It is necessary to have a flexible system with a way to encourage and work in kids who start at 10 and 11. Don Budge didn't take tennis seriously until he was 15! But once Budge was seen by a good coach, he got all the instruction and playing time he needed.
 

Curiosity

Professional
The Stanford tennis teams are still all homegrown players, I believe. Don't know if any of the other Div 1 teams are doing this. But then the Stanford men are no longer in the top 10 as they were more than a decade ago.

America, oddly, is the "win at any cost" country. So colleges recruit top European players, and offer them scholarships. This works perfectly for the European tennis (and squash...) players, because their system works this way: The national sports federations have local (county) branches. The national and county organizations sponsor gyms and tennis courts, etc, and coaches. The best players by the age of thirteen or fourteen are offered places in national centers. But note, if you're a smaller country your center is less far away.

Swedish high school (gymnasium) runs a year longer than ours, typically. Kids finish at 18. They have usually already committed to a particular line of study (science, humanities, or social science). A very talented kid living near a local center can forego the national sports training, finish high school, and THEN turn it on full time for three or four years...to see how far he or she can go.

IF they decide that a tennis career isn't going to work, they turn their attention to academics. That means, for most, college. They don't have money, usually, so scholarships are key. They don't have those in Europe. European colleges have nothing to do with sports. So? Go to the US! They can always go home again when they're ready to study medicine, law, or accountancy.

There is a reason the European players are older when playing for US colleges. They have already taken a run at the pro circuit for three or four years. The regulator of college tennis actually had to coerce colleges to reduce the average age of their players to 24 some years ago. 24! The average age should be 20, by rights. But hey, gotta win....
 
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sureshs

Bionic Poster
There is a reason the European players are older when playing for US colleges. They have already taken a run at the pro circuit for three or four years. The regulator of college tennis actually had to coerce colleges to reduce the average age of their players to 24 some years ago. 24! The average age should be 20, by rights. But hey, gotta win....

If they took money in a pro tournament, they cannot play NCAA, right?

Also, there is another reason why they are older. Some of them have to do mandatory military service. Federer got an exemption.
 

Curiosity

Professional
If they took money in a pro tournament, they cannot play NCAA, right?

Also, there is another reason why they are older. Some of them have to do mandatory military service. Federer got an exemption.

As to playing tournaments, there is pro and there is Pro. A Swede or German can receive living subsidies for training and survive without taking tournament prize money: recall that low ranking beginner pros don't win much if any money. Thus those who aren't confident of a great tour career sacrifice nothing to bag it and come to the US. On the contrary, it is the smoothest cheapest way to move back into academics.

Military service? Switzerland is the heavy for that and even there it is no longer, in fact, universal. Like Sweden, they actually don't have much for many of the people to do. (I recommend La Place de la Concorde Suisse, by John Mc Phee. (Sample: Says the French-speaking Swiss to McPhee, "I really don't see why I have to serve. There are enough German Swiss to defend us all!") Sweden cut service down to six months, and offers many an out. Many people do zero months. Like the Suisse, a Swede that does serve only goes back for a few weeks each year, if that. If a Swede or Swiss moves their tax residence out of the country, they do not have to do annual service. Thus the exception for the great players is simply a way to encourage them to stay a Swiss resident, as Roger has. There is a LOT of tax money at stake. If a European moves to a different country, they no longer pay taxes in their country of citizenship. Yep, the USA is uniquely different on that concept. Unfortunately.
 
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sureshs

Bionic Poster
There is a LOT of tax money at stake. If a European moves to a different country, they no longer pay taxes in their country of citizenship. Yep, the USA is uniquely different on that concept. Unfortunately.

Yes the US is I think one of the few countries which requires the difference between local and US tax dues, if US tax dues are more, to be paid to the IRS regardless of the country of residence. On the other hand, the US does provide social security to anyone residing abroad after retirement, and there is now a move to try to get them Medicare too. If that happens, it will be more justifiable.
 

Curiosity

Professional
Yes the US is I think one of the few countries which requires the difference between local and US tax dues, if US tax dues are more, to be paid to the IRS regardless of the country of residence. On the other hand, the US does provide social security to anyone residing abroad after retirement, and there is now a move to try to get them Medicare too. If that happens, it will be more justifiable.


What? The US only provides Social Security credits to US citizens for years worked abroad if worked in a country with which the US has a Social Security integration treaty. In other words, only for years worked in a country that reciprocates.

Social security retirement is chump change as an exchange for taxes paid for those taxed while managing businesses or practicing professions in other nations. This is especially true for those in the financial/investment businesses or senior management in other industries. Mailing checks abroad for social security earned in the US is simply natural. Would it be any better to require a US address, having a bank then forward the money? No,

The US requires the tax filings...because it can. Providing Medicare would be profitable for the US government provided it kept the people from returning to the US for treatement. Medical services are cheaper abroad, even in Europe, than in the USA. Fraud will be rife, however, if the US follows such a practice. The concept is also a fail because it will pump a huge amount of economic activity out of the US, reducing GDP.

Edit: Pursuing tax ramifications is seriously off-topic....
 
Not sure about other federations, but the Usta does not get federal funding.
I am guessing their coffers are deep because of our membership dues and the us open.
 

Ash_Smith

Legend
Do national tennis federations in Europeget government funding? Does the USTA? I don't know, but that may have something to do with things.

LTA does not, but other NGB's do through through UK Sport and the National Lottery (our national wheelchair tennis programme does receive funding). RFET does not receive state funding as I understand it, their annual budget was in the region of €4m not so long ago, not sure if it has gone up since.
 
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