American Jr Tennis why are we falling behind?

BMC9670

Hall of Fame
There is a reason the European players are older when playing for US colleges. They have already taken a run at the pro circuit for three or four years. The regulator of college tennis actually had to coerce colleges to reduce the average age of their players to 24 some years ago. 24! The average age should be 20, by rights. But hey, gotta win....

2015 NCAA Eligibility Rules state: "Tennis: Must enroll full time at a college or university during the first regular academic term, which occurs following the six-month period after high school graduation."

Where is the data that says the average age of college tennis player is 24?
 
Ashe smith, thanks for that post.

So...Spain's entire annual budget is Four million euro? That is about what it costs us to own and operate a sand hill in carson. That is a year of limousine Lunches for the suits in white plains.

We have a 102 court facility on lake nona, now. Y'all bettabacdaheckup.

Caucasian, please.

Ash smith, btw, what a great tennis name for a coach. It is like connor perry or Cash Noah...Mac Rosewall, or Kramer Vines.

I noticed the two singles round robin groups at the o2 in london this year were the stan Smith and ilie Nastase groups.
Zoinks, like, they named their groups after shoes I had in juniors. How could they know?
 
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Curiosity

Professional
2015 NCAA Eligibility Rules state: "Tennis: Must enroll full time at a college or university during the first regular academic term, which occurs following the six-month period after high school graduation."

Where is the data that says the average age of college tennis player is 24?

Hi BMC9670. I'm 64 (this week!) My son played eleven to seven years ago, roughly. My "average age" quote is therefore out of date. If you are interested, however, the following USTA post (with link to the full text) shows how very recently the age rules changed, bringing the average age down by two to three years. Even five years ago a European player could stall his finish of Gymnasium to age 20 by examination, take one more year off playing Futures and Challengers for three total years, then start play US college D1 at age 21, and play for four years. With a penalty they could start even later: Even today a European student can delay Gymnasium graduation, play on the tour for two years, and start at age 20 at a US college, while still complying with the NCAA rules. Don't assume that every kid (and family) is in a rush to toll the NCAA eligibility clock!

The rules changed dramatically four years ago. The following USTA note published on the ITA site gives you a clear picture of what I was describing before the 2011-2 (effective date) rule change:

(The full note is at http://www.itatennis.com/Assets/ita...ate+Varsity+$!26+International+Player+FAQ.pdf)

"7. What are the rules to ensure international student-athletes are age appropriate and have been held to the same amateurism standards that American student-athletes have been held to?

The NCAA leadership just recently took the bold step of recommending that the one-year “grace period” for tennis should be reduced to a period of six months or less,effective either August 1, 2011 or 2012. This legislation has not yet been finally approved by the NCAA Board of Directors, but a decision is expected later in the spring of 2010. Currently, prospective student-athletes may take a year after high school before matriculating without losing any eligibility (i.e. having to sit out the first year of matriculation and also losing a minimum of a year of eligibility). This legislation encourages tennis playing student athletes to continue their educational path from high school to college, by allowing only a six month hiatus from their studies without penalty.

The intent is to create a more level playing field based on age, experience, and opportunity, and in doing so, to discourage coaches from recruiting older and more experienced players who have already had a number of years on the professional tour as an amateur. NCAA Bylaw #14.2.3.2 also ensures that tennis student-athletes must begin full time collegiate enrollment before their twentieth birthday. If they do not, student-athletes can be penalized by having to sit a year in residence and can run the risk of being penalized season(s) of eligibility. The NCAA Eligibility Center evaluates all Division I and Division II prospective student athletes’ amateur and academic status."
 
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Curiosity

Professional
^^^ I spoke with Judy a couple of days after to see if the town of Dunblane (pop. c6,000) would get a trophy of it's own seeing as it had basically won the Davis Cup single handedly, she said not, but the boys each got replica to keep.


If not Dunblane, how about....Scotland?
 

BMC9670

Hall of Fame
Hi BMC9670. I'm 64 (this week!) My son played eleven to seven years ago, roughly. My "average age" quote is therefore out of date. If you are interested, however, the following USTA post (with link to the full text) shows how very recently the age rules changed, bringing the average age down by two to three years. Even five years ago a European player could stall his finish of Gymnasium to age 20 by examination, take one more year off playing Futures and Challengers for three total years, then start play US college D1 at age 21, and play for four years. With a penalty they could start even later: Even today a European student can delay Gymnasium graduation, play on the tour for two years, and start at age 20 at a US college, while still complying with the NCAA rules. Don't assume that every kid (and family) is in a rush to toll the NCAA eligibility clock!

The rules changed dramatically four years ago. The following USTA note published on the ITA site gives you a clear picture of what I was describing before the 2011-2 (effective date) rule change:

(The full note is at http://www.itatennis.com/Assets/ita...ate+Varsity+$!26+International+Player+FAQ.pdf)

"7. What are the rules to ensure international student-athletes are age appropriate and have been held to the same amateurism standards that American student-athletes have been held to?

The NCAA leadership just recently took the bold step of recommending that the one-year “grace period” for tennis should be reduced to a period of six months or less,effective either August 1, 2011 or 2012. This legislation has not yet been finally approved by the NCAA Board of Directors, but a decision is expected later in the spring of 2010. Currently, prospective student-athletes may take a year after high school before matriculating without losing any eligibility (i.e. having to sit out the first year of matriculation and also losing a minimum of a year of eligibility). This legislation encourages tennis playing student athletes to continue their educational path from high school to college, by allowing only a six month hiatus from their studies without penalty.

The intent is to create a more level playing field based on age, experience, and opportunity, and in doing so, to discourage coaches from recruiting older and more experienced players who have already had a number of years on the professional tour as an amateur. NCAA Bylaw #14.2.3.2 also ensures that tennis student-athletes must begin full time collegiate enrollment before their twentieth birthday. If they do not, student-athletes can be penalized by having to sit a year in residence and can run the risk of being penalized season(s) of eligibility. The NCAA Eligibility Center evaluates all Division I and Division II prospective student athletes’ amateur and academic status."

OK, this addresses the change in the grace period from 1 year down to 6 months, so how has that reduced the average age by 2 or 3 years? To say that "the average age for an international college tennis player is 24", even back then is anecdotal at best. Even if all international player postponed high school graduation for a year and then waited another year (they couldn't have waited two or three under the rules), that would make any 24 year old players seniors, which is not the "average". Maybe you knew some of the exceptions? Players maybe be a little older than their American counterparts, but not by that much. I think the age argument isn't a very strong reason there so many foreign players being recruited. There is just no way that scores of foreign players postpone high school graduation by a year, play "professional" tennis for 2-3 years, then come to college and play for 4 years. And even under the old grace period rules, it would take some serious recruiting violations to make that happen.
 

Curiosity

Professional
OK, this addresses the change in the grace period from 1 year down to 6 months, so how has that reduced the average age by 2 or 3 years? To say that "the average age for an international college tennis player is 24", even back then is anecdotal at best. Even if all international player postponed high school graduation for a year and then waited another year (they couldn't have waited two or three under the rules), that would make any 24 year old players seniors, which is not the "average". Maybe you knew some of the exceptions? Players maybe be a little older than their American counterparts, but not by that much. I think the age argument isn't a very strong reason there so many foreign players being recruited. There is just no way that scores of foreign players postpone high school graduation by a year, play "professional" tennis for 2-3 years, then come to college and play for 4 years. And even under the old grace period rules, it would take some serious recruiting violations to make that happen.

BMC9670: When my son was approaching the time to apply to college and understand the lay of the scholarship land, the average age of foreign players was reported to be 24. Do I have, twelve years later, the documents? No. The USTA does, the NCAA does, and I bet they would accommodate you if you have a sincere interest.

You did notice the USTA comment, that they were seeking more "age appropriate" foreign players? ...And that was only five years ago, not the eleven and more in which my son had an interest.

What is your point? Do you think the average age was 21 or 22, not 24. Knock yourself out. I'm going to think you are wrong. I lived through the era. I'm doubting you did.

As for delaying graduation in order to game the USTA rules, nothing could be clearer. Talk to some older experienced NCAA officials if you don't know the history. I'm this close to it: My brother-in-law waited to finish his Gymasium (approximately our high school, though a bit more) until he was 21 years old. He sat for a year and played for three, graduated at 25, and then went to B-school.

I gave you a link to a clearly relevant USTA document. All you come back with is "yeah? Well, but that doesn't mean things changed by 2 or 3 years!" Well, yes it does. The eventual enforcement of the 20-years-old rule did, unsurprisingly, have an effect. Behind that document lies much committee evidence. If you don't believe the average age of Div 1 foreign scholarship players reached 24 at one point, fine. The NCAA didn't get worked up about the issue because they averaged 21 or 22...which would have been a non-issue. Nope. They were guys who went on the pro tour as "amateurs." If you are unaware of how extensive that practice was in Europe, there's no point in our discussing the issue. I'm not going to provide you with a twenty year play-by-play of the foreign player issue. Take my word for it or don't.
 

Curiosity

Professional
....There is just no way that scores of foreign players postpone high school graduation by a year, play "professional" tennis for 2-3 years, then come to college and play for 4 years. And even under the old grace period rules, it would take some serious recruiting violations to make that happen.

You did notice the change in base age, finally settling on 20 years of age? That is a (relatively) recent change. Yes, lots of European tennis players are willing to delay high school graduation in order to game the rules. Even today a player can go on tour for four years (age 16 to 20), finish high school (gymnasium) by examination at age 20, enroll in college a year later, begin playing at age 22 and continue for a total of 3 years.

Recruiting rules? How old are you? Have you been through the system? Do you have any idea how European players are identified and recruited? Have you even been through one of the popular recruiting fests in the Spring before freshman year, in which the Europeans that haven't been picked up take a last shot?

I also don't get the axe you are grinding. The age facts I referred to are, among my generation, common knowledge. The USTA and NCAA were forced to act in order to change the reality on the ground. I think they've succeeded in part, as currently the foreign scholarship contingent represents 17% of male Div 1 players. It used to be even higher.

It's even worse, BTW, in squash, which has a different regulatory body. Look at the changes in Trinity's roster over the years. You can be a US #4 or 5, get recruited, but not end up playing much as they keep recruiting more foreign players. Just check the rosters over the last fifteen years.
 

BMC9670

Hall of Fame
You did notice the change in base age, finally settling on 20 years of age? That is a (relatively) recent change. Yes, lots of European tennis players are willing to delay high school graduation in order to game the rules. Even today a player can go on tour for four years (age 16 to 20), finish high school (gymnasium) by examination at age 20, enroll in college a year later, begin playing at age 22 and continue for a total of 3 years.

Recruiting rules? How old are you? Have you been through the system? Do you have any idea how European players are identified and recruited? Have you even been through one of the popular recruiting fests in the Spring before freshman year, in which the Europeans that haven't been picked up take a last shot?

I also don't get the axe you are grinding. The age facts I referred to are, among my generation, common knowledge. The USTA and NCAA were forced to act in order to change the reality on the ground. I think they've succeeded in part, as currently the foreign scholarship contingent represents 17% of male Div 1 players. It used to be even higher.

No axe to grind, was just curious where there was data that the "average age" of foreign players is 24 because I don't see this to be true on college rosters. You said your data was outdated. OK. All good.
 

Ihatetennis

Hall of Fame
No axe to grind, was just curious where there was data that the "average age" of foreign players is 24 because I don't see this to be true on college rosters. You said your data was outdated. OK. All good.
dorsch and becker were old tennis players

becker was like 22 or 23 as a freshman
 

Curiosity

Professional
No axe to grind, was just curious where there was data that the "average age" of foreign players is 24 because I don't see this to be true on college rosters. You said your data was outdated. OK. All good.

I didn't intend to express more than surprise. In my generation and even my son's class, the foreign contingent was still large. People were amazed, actually, when Michael Stich, a similar-age German in Boris Becker's cohort, decided to finish Gymnasium straight through. That held him off the full time tour for two more years. If he' then failed on the tour at 19 or 20, a ticket to a US college would not have been surprising.
 

West Coast Ace

G.O.A.T.
This topic again?

It's easy. Our top male athletes go into other sports - the team sports with the huge guaranteed contracts. We still do well with women because there is no WNFL, WMLB - and the WNBA is a joke. So we're putting our 5th/6th string males against the 2nd best (football/soccer is #1 in most other countries) from Europe, S America - it's almost a miracle we have anyone in the top 100 - probably only because we have 300 million people.

Then there's the teaching/parenting/winning mentality. The males all have big FH's and serves. Who was the last American man with a great (consistent) BH? Agassi. But they win and they scarf up ranking points. Roddick showed up on tour and really didn't have a BH. Recent players with a return of serve? Patience in a rally? Please.

And you don't need clay courts to learn the BH or return. Just reps.
 
When I look at American College Tennis why are the rosters filled with foreign players. I'm just going to take a simple guess and say their just better players. Ok then that begs the question why?

Why are foreign kids in particular European and South American kids better in general than American players in Jr tennis? It's evident that a lot of these foreign players are playing in US colleges ? How many thousands of kids play competitive USTA tournaments consistently? What is it about their Jr development efforts that make their jr' s better than ours? Is it because only the upper middle class can afford to send the kids to high performance tennis academies? Is it because most of our top athletes play in other sports like football, basketball, and baseball? I've heard people say American kids are to spoiled they don't want it bad enough? blah blah blah. I'm just trying to understand why a country like ours with all of the resources, facilities, and coaches aren't producing better players. Is the USTA Jr Development program all to blame? I keep seeing efforts where (USTA) spends resources on programs that target a lower socio economic demographic to gain interest from kids that might not otherwise have the opportunity to play the sport. Don't get me wrong this is great but is it the answer? Seems like wasted effort if your trying to create the next Pete Sampras or Andre Agassi. Tennis takes a huge financial commitment over the span of many years to produce an elite tennis player. Wouldn't it make sense to create programs that cater to those families that have already made large commitments and where their is true unrealized potential? But unfortunately those kids cant afford the luxury to compete at the highest levels? Is it the way Tennis is taught here? Is it because Jr's in Europe use compression balls when there 8 and our kids use normal balls and moonball for the first 4 years of competitive tennis? (sorry that was more of a rant on 10s and 12's) so happy those years are behind us. Do European countries have some sort of dev program where they take all their young jr athletes and put them in IMG type facilities from a very young age? We do that too I suppose with homeschooling and performance academies? Those of us that can afford it do it here right? But this also limits most of the population from having access to these types of facilities because there so expensive.

Funny thing is even the rich foreign kids come to America to train at places like IMG or many of the other high performance academies. But the USTA with all of it's vast wealth and plethora of jr players competing tournaments on a weekly bases cant make it work?

Just wanted to open this up to discussion.

Thoughts on what could be done to make our jr's more competitive on a global scale?
It's possible that American players don't have coaches as good as those in other countries. Plus, players elsewhere might have a more complete game, succeed on different surfaces and use better strategies. Just having a powerful serve and ground strokes is not always good enough.
 
I think the US has a surplus of good coaches, and that I think that may be the problem, because If the juniors cannot figure out how to get to the TOP of the ATP on their own, like some legendary players have done, then what the the upcoming juniors need are GREAT coaches to mentor them. Fortunately, some are available in the US, but they number less than a small handful. However, for whatever reason, it doesn't seem that they are being used to guide any of the upcoming juniors.

As I commented earlier, the US needs talented, hungry, uniquely gifted players as well as GREAT coaches who will work closely and personally together on a REGULAR basis. It has to be a meaningful relationship between player and great, not a token one. The US has a lot of good coaches, but less than a small handful of GREAT ones. A great coach serves as a catalyst for the young player's development to the TOP of the PROFESSIONAL game. In any profession, you can easily tell the difference between the good professionals and the great professionals when placed side by side. It's like taking a candle outdoors into the sun. For whatever reason, it seems like most of the young, upcoming players in the US are under the guiding light of a candle.
 
Many great coaches become head pros and directors. their energies are diverted from high performance junior tennis toward other facets of the club culture. We have a huge network of adult tennis here in the states, so quite a few excellent Coaches end up making more money teaching adults. They teach juniors part-time, and the whole thing is nice, but the resulting system is a much weaker, watered-down way to raise top players.

Stragely, i blame adult tennis more than the culture of entry-level 10u tennis. Athletic kids see tennis as the sport their mothers play...or what their dads do now that they cannot play basketball, baseball or football.

I am an adult, and i love playing tennis, and hitting with good juniors, but i am not the guy the good/great coaches need to be spending time with at the club. They need to show kids the importance of a complete game, strong work ethic, and great technique by age 14.
 
This topic again?

It's easy. Our top male athletes go into other sports - the team sports with the huge guaranteed contracts. We still do well with women because there is no WNFL, WMLB - and the WNBA is a joke. So we're putting our 5th/6th string males against the 2nd best (football/soccer is #1 in most other countries) from Europe, S America - it's almost a miracle we have anyone in the top 100 - probably only because we have 300 million people.

Then there's the teaching/parenting/winning mentality. The males all have big FH's and serves. Who was the last American man with a great (consistent) BH? Agassi. But they win and they scarf up ranking points. Roddick showed up on tour and really didn't have a BH. Recent players with a return of serve? Patience in a rally? Please.

And you don't need clay courts to learn the BH or return. Just reps.
Great post, especially re: agassi's bh and return game. He was a freak, both in terms of nature AND nurture.
I liked Fish's two hander. Roddick's successes with his bh pass were mostly driven by grit. Blake relied on a not so patient gameplan. Others moonball, then reluctantly learn to attack.

I do think there are more and more great US coaches with the complete game in mind. I think there are some good us players coming up these days, who are doing well on the world stage.

But the emphasis in the country is so scattered. Tons of reasons and excuses not to train hard....gotta be well-rounded. Play a musical instrument, academics, social skills...good. Well, gotta play some video games, football-watching, netflix and social media addiction, gotta spend weeks planning a date to the dance, go skiing, like eXtreme sports. God let us not be those affluent excuse-making parents who also are glued to social media, video games and Netflix....who provide a pitiful example in terms of work ethic.

So, it is pretty remote to expect a regular american kid to earn a d1 scholarship, let alone go pro. As psycho tennis dad said in another thread, it is a pipe dream unless a kid is homeschooled and attending an academy.
 
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West Coast Ace

G.O.A.T.
Great post...
Thanks.

Agassi's hand-eye was off the charts. I think if his dad had pushed him to baseball , barring injury, he would have been one of the best 2nd basement in the history of the MLB.

I liked Fish's two hander.
His mechanics were great - I guess I include movement with the stroke (let's face it - if the court were narrower everyone on tour would have good groundies). Fish couldn't move at all early in his career when he wasn't in top shape.

And yeah, Roddick put the work in to eventually have a halfway decent BH. I used to feel bad for his original coach (Benebiles?) since he got dumped before Roddick made it - but then I remember this is the guy who let him turn pro without a BH so I quickly lose the sympathy.

But the emphasis in the country is so scattered. Tons of reasons and excuses not to train hard....gotta be well-rounded. Play a musical instrument, academics, social skills...good. Well, gotta play some video games, football-watching, netflix and social media addiction, gotta spend weeks planning a date to the dance, go skiing, like eXtreme sports. God let us not be those affluent excuse-making parents who also are glued to social media, video games and Netflix....who provide a pitiful example in terms of work ethic.
All true. But I have to hope that there are a few well-grounded boys out there with parents that provide just the right amount of support (thinking Sampras and Federer's families).
 

Curiosity

Professional
...who provide a pitiful example in terms of work ethic.

So, it is pretty remote to expect a regular american kid to earn a d1 scholarship, let alone go pro. As psycho tennis dad said in another thread, it is a pipe dream unless a kid is homeschooled and attending an academy.

Yep. But hey, you left out yoga class and working on creating a greener energy footprint...
 
Wca, yep, it was tarik benhabiles. French-Algerian guy. Small guy with a great game. I remember him from juniors...he played the tour a while, too.

Well said about fishy. He was a heck of an athlete for an average mover. Good eyes.

Curiosity, hahaaa, raising the new age tennis player. no leather grips or natural gut!
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
But the emphasis in the country is so scattered. Tons of reasons and excuses not to train hard....gotta be well-rounded. Play a musical instrument, academics, social skills...good. Well, gotta play some video games, football-watching, netflix and social media addiction, gotta spend weeks planning a date to the dance, go skiing, like eXtreme sports. God let us not be those affluent excuse-making parents who also are glued to social media, video games and Netflix....who provide a pitiful example in terms of work ethic.

And people in other countries don't watch sports or use social media? What is the basis of this kind of generalization other than just complaining?

And now academics is also something that should not be emphasized? So that all tennis juniors can stop school at age 16 like Federer and Nadal since they are sure to end up like them?
 
Sorry. I did not communicate effectively, grand Poobah.

...
Play a musical instrument, academics, social skills...good.
...
i meant that music, academics and social skills were a good thing. I used "good" literally in the literal sense.

It is the other stuff, naturallY i am complaining about: the small parts of life that have gradually become overemphasized, at least in our country. I am also complaining about the casual implication of their importance in our culture.

Rather than taking a protectionist bent, discussing ncaa rules, my mind goes to these topics when i hear of european and soith american guys dominating us college tennis.

To be sure, SureshS, I do not doubt social media is pervasive in other cultures. From the ranked kids i know and hit with here in the US, i think a lot of them have social media addiction on the order of middle school girl, whereas the foreign kids i know seem a lot more dedicated and a lot less distracted. Granted my opinion is based upon a sampling which includes american jrs and foreign college players, so this comparison is unfair.

As for your point about dropping out of school at 16, haha, i see lots of homeschooled kids begin that path at eleven or twelve. Not a fan (and i have kids who play a good level). But it is becoming necessary for the kids who want to compete. Sadly.

Hope that was more clear.

Re: watching sports...
In this country, at this time of year, during a non-tournament weekend, i see kids half-ass their tennis and academics to watch four or five college football games on a weekend, on top of some nfl and nba games. Selfishly, as a guy who hits with good jrs, i am annoyed by their "schedules". Somehow, as an adult with a family, i am much more flexible, because i am not a slave to watching sports. Ok, maybe the world series, a davis cup tie or a playoff game.

Unlike thirty years ago, our kids seem to make watching several football games a priority, and work a bit of tennis around it. Hmm, maybe it represents valuable time with their family and friends, but i think it is excessive compared to the Occasional, big soccer matches the european kids might fixate on.
 
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Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
Unlike thirty years ago, our kids seem to make watching several football games a priority, and work a bit of tennis around it. Hmm, maybe it represents valuable time with their family and friends, but i think it is excessive compared to the Occasional, big soccer matches the european kids might fixate on.

This is true. Partly cultural, partly media and marketing. College football is big business. Yes it is excessive. But that's what all the other kids will be talking about at school on Monday. That's what people will be talking about at the watercooler at work on Monday. And so on.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
Just to chime in from the outside looking in, it's not like the situation is that different elsewhere w.r.t social media or prioritizing things like watching football games over tennis. It may seem like non-American college tennis players are more dedicated simply because only the 'cream' of the crop gets that far. To want to do that much to be good at tennis is already asking for a lot and those who are prepared to do that are already of a different mindset from the regular college crowd.
 
Yes, i am comparing our good young players to their really good ones. Not entirely fair.

Distracted is normal. Desire is there. Focus is rare.

I am curious to see how this will play out (my kids, local ranked players, and US jrs in general).
 
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sureshs

Bionic Poster
To be sure, SureshS, I do not doubt social media is pervasive in other cultures. From the ranked kids i know and hit with here in the US, i think a lot of them have social media addiction on the order of middle school girl, whereas the foreign kids i know seem a lot more dedicated and a lot less distracted. Granted my opinion is based upon a sampling which includes american jrs and foreign college players, so this comparison is unfair.

I don't know about European kids, but in Asia, cell phone and social media usage is going through the roof.

I also hope you are not succumbing to the mistake many people make: comparing foreign kids who have made it all the way here to the local kids. If you look at the local kids in the foreign countries, the picture may be very different. You are looking at a self-selected sample of the population with motivation and resources to find themselves in the US.
 
Well, thanks captain. i freely admit to a small sample size, and comparing US jrs with low national rankings to college kids four yrs older who have played futures. Not one of these guys has gone all the way to the atp top fifty.

Age aside, if the goal is to play a fairly high level, the idea is to emulate the focus of a successful player rather than to go with the herd. The herd is not doing too well.

Just over Thanksgiving, i had a hit and a beer with a fairly recent college player from an eastern european country known for success on the tour. like me, he sometimes hits with with some ranked 16s and 18s players. Unlike me, he is getting paid to hit with them, haha.

Could have been the beer talking, but he was venting about the distracted youth here. Said in the former yugoslavia, the players are certainly more driven and less distracted. They do not spend time garnering likes on instagram or facebook or snapchat et al. Again, this is a small sample, but it is what i have to contribute to the thread.

Love to see if some elite coaches can help us all understand why we are falling behind. I know a similar conversation has gone on in Oz (two great hopes coming up), UK (2015 Davis Cup champs) and other formerly great tennis nations.

Edit:
Last year at a challenger, I shared a meal with the former coach of an american top 20 atp player. He currently looks after a top 100 american. The topic of the decline of us men's tennis came up. Like most coaches, he said this stuff is cyclical....and that it is impossible to compare today's americans to pete, jim, dre and chang. He said it is downright unfair to compare anyone in the world to the otherworldly level of focus muzzer, rf, rafa and Djokovic bring to the game.
 
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Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
One thing I can tell: here in India, nobody uses their phones once they are on the court. If it's adults, their partners would get annoyed and they would have to get back to playing. Kids and even college students can be reprimanded by the coach for doing so. While we very much seem to be moving to an American pattern of lifestyle and upbringing, coaches still have the authority to command their wards to do what they tell them to. It has its minuses but it at least ensures undivided attention while you are on the court. There's nothing wrong with using fb or instagram after your time on court is done...provided you aren't cutting down your time on court just so you can be on fb. But I don't know anybody here who plays tennis and does that. Since only a middle/upper middle class minority can afford tennis anyway, it takes a different kind of person from the regular to elect to play tennis instead of cricket or swimming or working out at the gym. Maybe that is the case in East Europe too. I wouldn't know for sure but it's likely given the popularity of soccer across Europe.
 

West Coast Ace

G.O.A.T.
I think the distractions - which can also be thought of as 'other options' - become important when a kid gets to the level where he's not smoking everyone and, gasp, starts losing. The easy way out is to just move on to another activity. This is where the parents/coach are/is important - explain that everyone loses sometimes - but you can keep getting better and maybe you'll turn the tables on the kid that just beat you.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
^^ Also to teach them delayed gratification. There was a kid in our group who would have been 16 and was about to join college. He had tried his hand at cricket, soccer, maybe basketball top before enrolling for tennis lessons. He picked up the game pretty fast though he had a tendency to hit too flat. He was pretty athletic. But after a few months he dropped out to work out at the gym. Wants to look manly in college to impress girls. I thought he would have been better served sticking to one game and mastering it rather than hopping around grasshopper-like.
 
Grasshoppa, wise men say chicks dig a fella who can stick with something.
I think the distractions - which can also be thought of as 'other options' - become important when a kid gets to the level where he's not smoking everyone and, gasp, starts losing. The easy way out is to just move on to another activity. This is where the parents/coach are/is important - explain that everyone loses sometimes - but you can keep getting better and maybe you'll turn the tables on the kid that just beat you.
Yes.
I have heard of the coach who played REM's "Everybody hurts" on the long ride back from a big tournament...as a light, humorous way to tell a kid it is ok to lose, and to hurt....and to learn, work and see the big picture.
 

BMC9670

Hall of Fame
Grasshoppa, wise men say chicks dig a fella who can stick with something.
Yes.
I have heard of the coach who played REM's "Everybody hurts" on the long ride back from a big tournament...as a light, humorous way to tell a kid it is ok to lose, and to hurt....and to learn, work and see the big picture.

I like to quote Crash Davis when mine have a tough loss: "Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes...it rains." Brings a smile (however small it may be) every time.
 

BMC9670

Hall of Fame
This is where the parents/coach are/is important - explain that everyone loses sometimes - but you can keep getting better and maybe you'll turn the tables on the kid that just beat you.

This is a great point. It's hard for kids to realize their own progress over time. I just went through a year-end review with my kids, which we like to do for not only tennis, but school and other activities. It's good to reflect and see where they have been and how far they have come. My son had not realized it, but this year he had beat 4 kids that he had never beaten before in multiple tries, and only 1 kid had beaten him that he had never lost to. This lead to a conversation about his game style, weapons, temperament, and how they had all come into more focus and/or improved as well as setting some goals on areas that need improvement. It's a very healthy thing to do and applies to many things.
 
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barringer97

Semi-Pro
It's a lot of work and a lot of money...and the kid has to be special. That's a hard combo to get in America.

My daughter just turned 11 and is one of the best 5th graders around. She's top 50 in 12 and under open in points and probably top 30 in ability, but has two full more years of playing in the 12's in a good, but not the best, USTA section.

I played college tennis in the Pac 10, so I hit with her a lot, but I am also spending about $1000 a month in lessons, clinics, gear, and tourneys.

So, in saying that, she has some of the best coaches around along with a good hitting partner (me) playing at a minimum, 10 hours a week.

She will be really good, good college player, but I just can tell already, she isn't going pro. She's very athletic as well, should be at least 5'9". It's just not going to happen.

The kid has to be very, very special.
 

Mig1NC

Professional
Yeah, but in a nation of over 300 million people the raw number of people with that special quality should be high. Yet much smaller countries have more college and pro players.
 

barringer97

Semi-Pro
Yeah, but in a nation of over 300 million people the raw number of people with that special quality should be high. Yet much smaller countries have more college and pro players.

I don't know if that's true. I do think we have MORE professional and college players, but not better.
 

Oz_Rocket

Professional
It's a lot of work and a lot of money...and the kid has to be special. That's a hard combo to get in America.

My daughter just turned 11 and is one of the best 5th graders around. She's top 50 in 12 and under open in points and probably top 30 in ability, but has two full more years of playing in the 12's in a good, but not the best, USTA section.

I played college tennis in the Pac 10, so I hit with her a lot, but I am also spending about $1000 a month in lessons, clinics, gear, and tourneys.

So, in saying that, she has some of the best coaches around along with a good hitting partner (me) playing at a minimum, 10 hours a week.

She will be really good, good college player, but I just can tell already, she isn't going pro. She's very athletic as well, should be at least 5'9". It's just not going to happen.

The kid has to be very, very special.

This is so true. The number of parents I listen to who say their little Johnny/Mary is a good chance of going pro because they are top 10 in the country is amazing. I've had the opportunity recently to watch all of Australia's top 12/U boys and girls and, barring the exception that breaks the rule, only one of them you'd say will have a chance of the top 100 based on what I saw.

The planets that have to align in terms of training, coaches, matchplay, inherent talent, desire, etc are just incredible. This girl has all of that so will get the best chance to make it, but she's an early bloomer so who knows what might happen when she's 14 or 16. It's just so much easier to achieve that level in many other sports that offer a better chance of a good living without having to be in the top 100 in the world.
 

Ihatetennis

Hall of Fame
This is so true. The number of parents I listen to who say their little Johnny/Mary is a good chance of going pro because they are top 10 in the country is amazing. I've had the opportunity recently to watch all of Australia's top 12/U boys and girls and, barring the exception that breaks the rule, only one of them you'd say will have a chance of the top 100 based on what I saw.

The planets that have to align in terms of training, coaches, matchplay, inherent talent, desire, etc are just incredible. This girl has all of that so will get the best chance to make it, but she's an early bloomer so who knows what might happen when she's 14 or 16. It's just so much easier to achieve that level in many other sports that offer a better chance of a good living without having to be in the top 100 in the world.
i have a friend who was undefeated in texas in 12s and ranked 1 in 10s 12s and 14s

she was alos 5'9" and is now 5'11"

was a top bluechip, now is barely in 2-3 star range due to lack of technique

she also quit tennis tournaments and has only played sporadically in the last 3 years
 

West Coast Ace

G.O.A.T.
Yeah, but in a nation of over 300 million people the raw number of people with that special quality should be high. Yet much smaller countries have more college and pro players.
Too many variables to make claims like that. And those small countries don't have so many other sports competing for talent. And I'm sure in the world of teens, tennis isn't thought of that highly by those who don't play. I remember Sampras saying he was lightly mocked as the 'tennis guy' in school (he got the last laugh). A lot of kids could succumb to that kind of peer pressure.

If the US doesn't get any male players in the top 5 in the next 25 years, I'll be shocked too. But a 10-15 year drought isn't anything to freak out over.
 

barringer97

Semi-Pro
Too many variables to make claims like that. And those small countries don't have so many other sports competing for talent. And I'm sure in the world of teens, tennis isn't thought of that highly by those who don't play. I remember Sampras saying he was lightly mocked as the 'tennis guy' in school (he got the last laugh). A lot of kids could succumb to that kind of peer pressure.

If the US doesn't get any male players in the top 5 in the next 25 years, I'll be shocked too. But a 10-15 year drought isn't anything to freak out over.


The parents have to know and like tennis as well, this doesn't really happen in other sports (maybe baseball).

I don't think the multi sport thing is a big issue as some others here. Someone brought up Josh Rosen as an example, but Rosen was never going to be the next Pistol Pete. He was really good and probably would have played college at a good school, but he would have never been top 10 or 100 in the world. He will be the #1 pick n the NFL draft in two years, so he's making the right choice.

My funnel for success:
1) kid has to be special
2) parents have to know tennis, have some background
3) parents have to have $
4) kid needs to love it

There are 300 million people in the US, but very few fit in that funnel.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
It's just so much easier to achieve that level in many other sports that offer a better chance of a good living without having to be in the top 100 in the world.

There are not that many other lucrative sports. Worldwide, it is soccer. In the Commonwealth countries, it is soccer, cricket and field hockey. In other parts of Asia, add badminton and table tennis. Out of these, only soccer and cricket are feasible as careers, but the pool is very very big and the competition is very very high.

In the US, it is baseball, golf, basketball, football, and ice hockey, out of which the latter 3 require exceptional physical attributes and few tennis players will qualify (maybe Karlovic, Isner and Querrey in basketball). Football and ice hockey are prone to serious injuries and violence, and football and academics don't seem to mix. For normal guys, that leaves baseball and golf. But golf requires incredible precision and is much more difficult to excel in than tennis.
 

Oz_Rocket

Professional
In the US, it is baseball, golf, basketball, football, and ice hockey, out of which the latter 3 require exceptional physical attributes and few tennis players will qualify (maybe Karlovic, Isner and Querrey in basketball). Football and ice hockey are prone to serious injuries and violence, and football and academics don't seem to mix. For normal guys, that leaves baseball and golf. But golf requires incredible precision and is much more difficult to excel in than tennis.

I take your point about how many good tennis players could easily transfer to or excel at other sports, particularly football. The thing is that it doesn't appear to stop many kids from trying anyway. Here in a relatively small Australia we have 4 codes of football (Soccer, Rugby League, Rugby Union and Australian Rules). All up you'd have 600+ athletes most making a minimum of $80-90k per year with most travel, accommodation and medical taken care of. Add in golf and cricket and you can be in the top 100 for these just in Australia with a population of 25 million but still make a living. For tennis I personally know two women in the 300s in the world and they are lucky to break even from prize money and rely on coaching, restringing, second jobs, etc to scrape by.

My son is around the top 50 in the country for his age in tennis. His chances of doing anything more than making pocket money from coaching is almost nil. However my brother is a good golfer (handicap as low as 1 when he played regularly) and he's taken my son for a hit a few times. On his second full round my son got a par 3 on one hole. My brother and a mate who was a professional golfer think he could actually do pretty well and I'd say go further in golf than tennis and have the potential to actually make some money. He loves his tennis and will stick with it but I can see the lure of it. Already a few of his tennis mates have changed to cricket once they hit high school. With parents of top 10 kids I know spending $20k plus per year on their kids tennis I suspect it will only get worse.
 
Moral of the story: make sure your kids do it because they love the game. Maybe they can see how cool it would be to still be a good player into old age. No real sense in thinking of the ROI.

This thread is great. But it...Makes you want to give up as an American tennis dad or even as a hitting partner for college hopefuls.

But to get to a decent level, you have to burn with desire for the high level, similar to the way elite international jrs train for pro tennis, then plan B is to come play a solid level of college tennis here in the us. Maybe some journeyman tennis after that.

Yet another gentle nudge to hit the books.
Happy new year, gang!
 
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Lukhas

Legend
For those curious about seeing a sample of how it is like at Bollettieri's academy... Each year they make freely available live streaming of the Eddie Herr tournament (minus the clay court). They generally leave the streams on for a little while after the end of the tournament. You can watch it right now, but it could get shut down any day... until the next Eddie Herr tournament. Sometimes, when you're lucky, you can even catch some pro players during the off-season.
http://live.imgacademies.com/Tennis.aspx
 

Ihatetennis

Hall of Fame
For those curious about seeing a sample of how it is like at Bollettieri's academy... Each year they make freely available live streaming of the Eddie Herr tournament (minus the clay court). They generally leave the streams on for a little while after the end of the tournament. You can watch it right now, but it could get shut down any day... until the next Eddie Herr tournament. Sometimes, when you're lucky, you can even catch some pro players during the off-season.
http://live.imgacademies.com/Tennis.aspx
the girl on the live feed right now for link is better than 99% of the people on here, 5.0 male at least
 

Lukhas

Legend
a) the Supreme Court ruled that one (in the US) loses the right to privacy when they step out their front door; b) there's no fee for the stream so they're not being deprived a cut of any revenue from their likeness.
Well actually you're supposed to have an account to watch the streams all year long. The only time where the streams are public is around the Eddie Herr tournament; after that, it's a matter of how long they leave the door open...
 
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