An assessment of the Wimbledon final and where Alcaraz actually stands

Maybe but he has nearly all the records anyway. If Alcaraz wants to be in the same conversation or be better then he needs to win as much as he did.

Alcaraz can dominate the h2h but if he doesn’t win as much then he won’t be seen as greater. It’s what Alcaraz does over the course of his career that’s more important and against the field not just Djokovic matches.
You are stating the obvious.

Djokovic before turning 21 won 10 tournaments, including 4 masters series, and 1 slam.

Alcaraz before turning 21 has won 12 tournaments, including 4 masters series, and 2 slams, and is world #1 to boot.

He's got 9 more months before turning 21, no telling what he can win in the next nine months.


So far, Alcaraz got better numbers than Djokovic had at the same age.

No way to know what the future has in store for Alcaraz, but so far, so good. And better than Djokovic.
 
You are stating the obvious.

Djokovic before turning 21 won 10 tournaments, including 4 masters series, and 1 slam.

Alcaraz before turning 21 has won 12 tournaments, including 4 masters series, and 2 slams, and is world #1 to boot.

He's got 9 more months before turning 21, no telling what he can win in the next nine months.


So far, Alcaraz got better numbers than Djokovic had at the same age.

No way to know what the future has in store for Alcaraz, but so far, so good. And better than Djokovic.
Nadal was better than Djokovic at this age. He didn’t stay ahead though. It’s too early to say how his curve goes over the coming years.
 

An assessment of the Wimbledon final and where Alcaraz actually stands​


The winners stand, from what I saw. Way up in front of Djo. Seems like a proper place to stand.

I get looking at nuance, but I think Alcz just is better in most categories and more importantly, wasn't a big phased by who was on the other side of the net. He was ready to play each and every point after that first set.
 
Nadal was better than Djokovic at this age. He didn’t stay ahead though. It’s too early to say how his curve goes over the coming years.
Alcaraz is beating Djokovic.

And this thread is about Alcaraz and Djokovic.

Wilander, Becker, have also better record at 21.

Yes it is too early to say that Alcaraz is going to break Djokovic records.

But is also too early to say that he will not.

So far, Alcaraz got the numbers, plus he's beating the man himself.

I like Alcaraz chances, but then, who knows.
 
CA actually stands as the winner of Wimbledon 2023. Superb achievement. But to write ND off because of this loss is somewhat obtuse. ND is a master strategist and hungry for yet more glory. He will most likely challenge all and sundry - including CA for the forseeable future. The end of his reign at Wimbledon is likely to be the start of the new campaign for his remaining career on tour. Simply fascinating - I can't wait to see how their respective onward journey unfolds.

As for the analysis of the match, excellent post by the OP. High on my list of key factors is the extraordinary grit and emotional control displayed by CA, which includes:
  • Facing and overcoming his demons after the loss in the FO SF by winning Queens and regaining number 1 ranking prior to Wimbly.
  • Dismantling the games of those he faced en-route to the final, including by beating those touted as better grass court players than him.
  • Despite being nervous in the first set and getting thrashed to lose it 1-6, retaining the conviction that he would have his chances and taking them in the 2nd set to win the tb.
  • Breaking ND's spirit by winning that epic 5th game in the 3rd set and taking it 6-1. With it he marked his authority on his opponent and the match. What an impressive achievement by a 20 year old kid.
  • Not allowing the lapse in the 4th set to impact upon the battle in the 5th set, and fearlessly going for his shots/fighting to convert his chances whilst refusing to give ground. The number of times he came back from behind in a game to clinch it was remarkable. He simply refused to give up.
Cometh the hour, cometh the man. The boy became a man in this match. The man opposite recognised it.

There are wheels within wheels, and layers within layers during a paradigm shift. The nuances of this match and its outcome has most likely changed the current dynamics of the sport. What the full repercussions will be remains to be seen, but that there has been an impact as a result of this win, cannot be doubted.
 
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Djokovic and high balls as rhythm breaker :
Ages ago, Djokovic had a frustrating and an almost funny match with Monfils at USO(USO 2016?). Gael after going 2-0 down decided to feed him random high bouncing no pace balls and it really messed with Djokovic for a long stretch of the match drawing errors on what balls that you would expect Djokovic to hit winners on.

Now, coming to this year's RG Final. Ruud judiciously used high bouncing less attackable heavy balls to draw errors and make Djokovic uncomfortable from the get go. He ended up winning the first.

Cut to midway through the WB F. The match was tied at 1-1 and Alcaraz starts to mix this strategy in his strategy to absolute perfection. It is amped up by his FH and it really hinders Djokovic's comfort level in the rallies and somewhere contributes to multiple errors swinging the match his way, Djokovic's legs didn't have the spring to deal with it after 3-4 heavy blows before them. A very very underrated aspect, a huge credit to Ferrero for learning it and knowing the extent to which it should be used.
Yes this is what I noticed as I was watching it and I thought it was a crucial component of Alcaraz winning. The first time I thought it was a mishit, the second time I realized he was intentionally hitting those shots to take the air out of rallies and it was very obvious even in real time how this put Novak in a position of discomfort. It is this sort of tactical maturity - coupled with the skill to execute it - that truly distinguishes Alcaraz from his lesser post-Big 3 peers.
 
So far, Alcaraz got the numbers, plus he's beating the man himself.
The fact that he’s beating him really says it all.

I will also say that had he not cramped at the French Open, he may very well be up 3-0 in their H2H. It’s the way Alcaraz has beaten Djokovic that needs mentioning. The first match in Madrid was very close and Alcaraz showed his poise, skill and steely nerve to win that match. The second match we all know what happened but, and it’s a big but, I think most of us can agree that Alcaraz was starting to get into the match and find his range until the cramps. The third match needs no further explanation, other than Alcaraz showing his all around brilliance.

One area of Djokovic’s success is rooted in his mystique and aura. When a match was close, the other player would inexplicably wilt and fall off the cliff but not with Alcaraz. He is different and has showed this in all three of their matches. He has this innate belief in himself, a confidence that can’t be taught on any tennis court. It’s something Alcaraz has been born with and we all see it very clearly now.

He could very well win the Grand Slam in the next few years.
 
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That was an oversight on my part. Thanks for pointing that out.

It should read the Grand Slam not a Grand Slam.
Np, anyway he has so much time to win so many grand slams that its hard not to see him breaking the slam record without a big 3 and a Murray Del Potro and other very dangerous players aroind. This era really is pretty dam weak. It looks like he's already ready to at least somewhat dominate the slams... theres basically only Djokovic and bad matchup Sinner to stop him for now
 
Np, anyway he has so much time to win so many grand slams that its hard not to see him breaking the slam record without a big 3 and a Murray Del Potro and other very dangerous players aroind. This era really is pretty dam weak. It looks like he's already ready to at least somewhat dominate the slams... theres basically only Djokovic and bad matchup Sinner to stop him for now
Yes very true.

If we’re talking about how many Slam tournaments he could win in say 10 years. If he won even 2 a year, which would be a reasonable number, he’d be knocking on the door.

It should be interesting to say the least
 
Good analysis.

Djokovic will have to try and go for broke - the next time they meet.

Alcaraz has lost quite a few matches when he is rushed and overpowered.

Can Novak do it at his age - it would be a pleasant surprise to see.
 
I am a little unsure how so many people here are ready to accept the baton has passed from Djokovic to Carlos, and Carlos will definitely beat Novak every time they meet next. That I don't think will happen at least not very easily
 
I am a little unsure how so many people here are ready to accept the baton has passed from Djokovic to Carlos, and Carlos will definitely beat Novak every time they meet next. That I don't think will happen at least not very easily
Djokovic has a case of the sticky fingers at the moment, as Alcaraz has his hand firmly on the baton.
 
You are stating the obvious.

Djokovic before turning 21 won 10 tournaments, including 4 masters series, and 1 slam.

Alcaraz before turning 21 has won 12 tournaments, including 4 masters series, and 2 slams, and is world #1 to boot.

He's got 9 more months before turning 21, no telling what he can win in the next nine months.


So far, Alcaraz got better numbers than Djokovic had at the same age.

No way to know what the future has in store for Alcaraz, but so far, so good. And better than Djokovic.
Alcaraz at 20 perhaps has a wider fanbase and appeal than Djokovic ever did.
 
Alcaraz at 20 perhaps has a wider fanbase and appeal than Djokovic ever did.
You are 100% right!

Look at the interest created by Djokovic after he broke the slam record.

And compare it to the interest produced by Alcaraz in the last 90 days.

Alcaraz winning Wimbledon offsets any advantage Djokovic coulda had with the slam record.

Alcaraz is in a different level!!!

 
Look at the interest created by Djokovic after he broke the slam record.
It wasn’t very much that is for sure. It was inevitable that he would pass Nadal after Nadal was injured at the Australian Open. Once the extent of his injury was known, it was clear he wouldn’t be able equal him at this years French Open.

And compare it to the interest produced by Alcaraz in the last 90 days.
It’s been incredible for the game and has clearly overshadowed Djokovic’s slam record. It will be something that will have caused a lot of resentment and anger in him. It’s as if he says…how dare he take my limelight.
 
It wasn’t very much that is for sure. It was inevitable that he would pass Nadal after Nadal was injured at the Australian Open. Once the extent of his injury was known, it was clear he wouldn’t be able equal him at this years French Open.


It’s been incredible for the game and has clearly overshadowed Djokovic’s slam record. It will be something that will have caused a lot of resentment and anger in him. It’s as if he says…how dare he take my limelight.
Alcaraz deserves the limelight now. He’s the no1, won last slam, the new young sensation and current us open champ. As a Djokovic fan that doesn’t bother me as new stars are good for them. I think djoker will be fine. The loss at Wimbledon will have hurt him for a bit but he’s likely over it now. He knows how good alcaraz is, respects him and that his time is likely here.
 
It wasn’t very much that is for sure. It was inevitable that he would pass Nadal after Nadal was injured at the Australian Open. Once the extent of his injury was known, it was clear he wouldn’t be able equal him at this years French Open.


It’s been incredible for the game and has clearly overshadowed Djokovic’s slam record. It will be something that will have caused a lot of resentment and anger in him. It’s as if he says…how dare he take my limelight.
Imagine djoko fans, now they live in constant turmoil thinking of, or denying the threat that Alcaraz poses.

Even though Djokovic is a fantastic player, and holds lots of records, now he's deemed as inferior to Alcaraz, no doubt about that.

When you compare his games, styles, wins, you can conclude that Alcaraz is superior.
 
Alcaraz deserves the limelight now. He’s the no1, won last slam, the new young sensation and current us open champ. As a Djokovic fan that doesn’t bother me as new stars are good for them. I think djoker will be fine. The loss at Wimbledon will have hurt him for a bit but he’s likely over it now. He knows how good alcaraz is, respects him and that his time is likely here.
Djokovic has no choice in the matter.

Alcaraz is here and is beating Djokovic. Alcaraz doesn’t fear Djokovic and neither does Rune for that matter. Djokovic may have to go through either Rune or Medvedev to even make it to the US Open final unless he was a sweetheart draw like he had at Wimbledon.

It’s all uphill for him.
 
Djokovic has no choice in the matter.

Alcaraz is here and is beating Djokovic. Alcaraz doesn’t fear Djokovic and neither does Rune for that matter. Djokovic may have to go through either Rune or Medvedev to even make it to the US Open final unless he was a sweetheart draw like he had at Wimbledon.

It’s all uphill for him.
I agree. That why I’m glad he got his 23rd slam when he did. It will be a tough road ahead that said he’s still Novak Djokovic and we can’t write him off until he retires.
 
Yes very true.

He looked like he had no idea on how to get the upper hand in rallies and his body language reflected that. He was being forced to play bigger than he is accustomed to due to Alcaraz. He looked a little lost to me and that is something we have rarely seen with him.

He was outplayed, out worked and had no answers when it mattered most and that was clearly due to Alcaraz.
finals of French Open and US Open against Stan.
 
You are 100% right!

Look at the interest created by Djokovic after he broke the slam record.

And compare it to the interest produced by Alcaraz in the last 90 days.

Alcaraz winning Wimbledon offsets any advantage Djokovic coulda had with the slam record.

Alcaraz is in a different level!!!

I see Raz and Nole both trending equally after Wimbledon. I see no issues.

Raz has benefit of coming after a long time no atg.
 
Djokovic and high balls as rhythm breaker :
Cut to midway through the WB F. The match was tied at 1-1 and Alcaraz starts to mix this strategy in his strategy to absolute perfection. It is amped up by his FH and it really hinders Djokovic's comfort level in the rallies and somewhere contributes to multiple errors swinging the match his way, Djokovic's legs didn't have the spring to deal with it after 3-4 heavy blows before them. A very very underrated aspect, a huge credit to Ferrero for learning it and knowing the extent to which it should be used.

Alcaraz and not giving Djokovic space on returns
One
thing I noticed was hoe Alcaraz chose to keep it central on service at times when he is usually better off angles. There were not exactly bucket load of body serves but it felt he was ensuring that Djokovic doesn't get a lot of room to work with. Djokovic stretched has a tendency of hitting bigger returns. Alcaraz tried not to give too many angles for Djokovic to work with on return.

And Alcaraz's aggression is well developed too, he has the tools and he took s leaflet out of Stan's approach against Novak. In many rallies he was hitting consistent Heavy balls but not going for too much. Well within margins.
Great analysis. I forgot about the random high balls to BH grinder players.
Good to see someone mention Stan's heavy style and it's effect. He also used skillful angles toward Novak's bh during his peak years.

Yea, Novak will or did catch on to Carlos' strategy. Do you remember one of the points in the last game of Wimbledon? Carlos hit a high ball to Novak's BH towards the middle of the court and rushed the net. Novak then hit an incredible bh cross that should have been a winner yet Carlos came up with an even better bh volley.
Djokovic's game is like chess while almost all of his opponents play checkers.
 
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Man, tennis fans are spoiled. I'm a big Carlos fan (no pun) but to think he has a CHANCE to sniff the rarified air of 20+ Majors is crazy. Djok, Nads and Fed have made fans delusional.

Let him get to 5 then we can talk about 10, maybe.

That Fils kid looks pretty good, who knows what kid lies in wait - you can't count on another next/lost gen for Carlos to feast on.

Let's hope for a W rematch at USO and AO!
 
I don't look much into it since Djokovic won't serve so crummy again. After the first set his serve was absolutely rotten. It looked like his 09-10 years. Djoker has been around a long time. He knows what to fix
 
Man, tennis fans are spoiled. I'm a big Carlos fan (no pun) but to think he has a CHANCE to sniff the rarified air of 20+ Majors is crazy. Djok, Nads and Fed have made fans delusional.

Let him get to 5 then we can talk about 10, maybe.

That Fils kid looks pretty good, who knows what kid lies in wait - you can't count on another next/lost gen for Carlos to feast on.

Let's hope for a W rematch at USO and AO!
Disagree he's already becoming the only dominant force at the majors if he keeps beating Djokovic and he has nearly 20 years to win 20 majors... And at a rate of only 2 majors per year you're there in just 10 years
 
Disagree he's already becoming the only dominant force at the majors if he keeps beating Djokovic and he has nearly 20 years to win 20 majors... And at a rate of only 2 majors per year you're there in just 10 years
Yes and since he is looking like the dominant player now, the 2 slams per year is a fairly conservative number for him.

You could realistically look at it this way too. We just had Federer, Nadal and Djokovic win the vast majority of the slams in the last 15 years or so. It wouldn’t be going out on a limb to say he could win 3 a year if he is the guy. He’d be at 20 in 5 or 6 years.

That will leave the Djokovic fans feeling rather ill at that thought.
 
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And yes this is why Djokovic loves AO its so predictable consistent and court kills topspin bounces
Especially in night conditions and slow heavy balls. Carlos will definitely try the drop shot lob combo ad nauseum but he will also have to work out how to keep the ball consistently deep and try to do what thiem attempted to do in 2020.
 
I hadn't got much time to write since the final but taking out to pour my thoughts. TTW being TTW has talked about almost every thing except actually analyzing couple of key aspects of the match

Djokovic and high balls as rhythm breaker :
Ages ago, Djokovic had a frustrating and an almost funny match with Monfils at USO(USO 2016?). Gael after going 2-0 down decided to feed him random high bouncing no pace balls and it really messed with Djokovic for a long stretch of the match drawing errors on what balls that you would expect Djokovic to hit winners on.

Now, coming to this year's RG Final. Ruud judiciously used high bouncing less attackable heavy balls to draw errors and make Djokovic uncomfortable from the get go. He ended up winning the first.

Cut to midway through the WB F. The match was tied at 1-1 and Alcaraz starts to mix this strategy in his strategy to absolute perfection. It is amped up by his FH and it really hinders Djokovic's comfort level in the rallies and somewhere contributes to multiple errors swinging the match his way, Djokovic's legs didn't have the spring to deal with it after 3-4 heavy blows before them. A very very underrated aspect, a huge credit to Ferrero for learning it and knowing the extent to which it should be used.

Alcaraz and not giving Djokovic space on returns
One
thing I noticed was hoe Alcaraz chose to keep it central on service at times when he is usually better off angles. There were not exactly bucket load of body serves but it felt he was ensuring that Djokovic doesn't get a lot of room to work with. Djokovic stretched has a tendency of hitting bigger returns. Alcaraz tried not to give too many angles for Djokovic to work with on return.

Alcaraz and Blocked/get a racquet on it Returns :
One key theme I noticed was Alcaraz's decision to strike the right balance between going big for the return and getting the balls in. He didn't try to do it big. One big conundrum on grass is, given the advantage to server, do you try to get a big return in on a serve in your strike zone or do you just try to get the ball back and hope the server doesn't take full control on first strike?

What Alcaraz did was to get most of Djokovic's serve back post 1st set. He didn't try to go for extra ordinary returns,his main thought process was reminiscent of Nadal : get the ball back, be ready to run like hell to get the rally to neutrality and then he will see.

Alcaraz's strategy seemed to get the racquet on the ball and get the serve back.

But he excelled beyond regularity here too : once he got the read of Djokovic serve around 3rd set, even though these returns weren't toe touching like Novak's, they started to be returned with interest.

Novak's main issue after 1st set was playing lots of rallies on his serve courtesy little free points. While one can point at his 1st serve percentage, his first serve points won never even touched Alcaraz's after 1st set, despite having the much better first serve.

Which brings me to :

Alcaraz's advantage over Novak on ground :

Stats have Alcaraz ahead on points won by rally length. But I firmly believe they do not do justice. Where Alcaraz is really hurting Novak is from ground. If that was visible in RG , I think that was even more important in WB F. What is truly hurting Djokovic in this match up is, that he doesn't get control initially easily it has to come off a good serve or a risky big hit and even if he does do it, Alcaraz's speed resets it.

That might sound like trademark Nadal special, but there's a subtlety to it : Nadal after reseting the rally mostly try to wrench control away, with Alcaraz, the aggression factor is higher. Djokovic doesn't get to press back the advantage for next 3 shots.


And Alcaraz's aggression is well developed too, he has the tools and he took s leaflet out of Stan's approach against Novak. In many rallies he was hitting consistent Heavy balls but not going for too much. Well within margins.

For Djokovic, it's stupendously problematic to deal with defense, flashes of randomness and controlled aggression.

Despite all of this ,

Novak is not only very much in the rivalry, he can beat Carlos much more than what People are suggesting here .

Key point people are forgetting is serve return complex. Carlos' serve was rock solid but again, it seemed Djokovic hadn't adapted to it. Moreover it was grass.

What people are missing out on is, Carlos's serve is decently attackable. Others hae done so Djokovic will have his team decipher it's patterns.

Alcaraz's serving points won numbers were pretty high for this match. He won't serve everyday like that day. 1st serve won percentage won't remain going into non grass surface.

Djokovic's serve, his return and his mind set can always pick up on a HC.


--becoming too long will write another.
Carlos spot serving has improved tremendously since last year. He will only continue to improve in all areas If this year is any indication. Why would he serve worse on hard courts vs grass? If anything his footwork is even better on hard. Plus the Laykold surface, type 2 ? tennis balls and combination of pace and spin he gets helps his game even more.
 
Carlos spot serving has improved tremendously since last year. He will only continue to improve in all areas If this year is any indication. Why would he serve worse on hard courts vs grass? If anything his footwork is even better on hard. Plus the Laykold surface, type 2 ? tennis balls and combination of pace and spin he gets helps his game even more.
Good grief! Surely you are not going to ask sensible questions and adopt an erudite approach!!!!! I am deeply shocked and it may take several replays of watching CA beating RN/ND /AZ at Madrid to recover myself! Loool!

Enjoyed your posts.
 
Good grief! Surely you are not going to ask sensible questions and adopt an erudite approach!!!!! I am deeply shocked and it may take several replays of watching CA beating RN/ND /AZ at Madrid to recover myself! Loool!

Enjoyed your posts.
... Appreciate it. Thank you. I guess if people love the game first, and use facts it would go a long way towards actually enjoying and appreciating the sport. But then again rabid fan boi's don't enjoy the sport. They just love to denigrate others. My two cents. Have a great day
 
Why is that so?
Very dead, low bouncing surface that doesn’t take spin or bounce like traditional hard courts.

At Australian Open now, spin is still important to alter ball flight and trajectory, but you don’t get the same benefits for variety of spin affecting the bounce at AO as you might at events with livelier hardcourt surfaces or even more so natural surfaces like clay and grass.
 
Djokovic has zero pressure on him. He’s won everything. It’s Alcaraz who has all the pressure. He needs to prove he belongs in the same category as big 3. Djokovic legacy is secure and anything else is just an added bonus now.

Alcaraz having pressure ?

What are you talking about? A 20 year old who is rapidly getting better having more pressure than an aging 36 year old? Lol you wish

Who says Alcaraz has to prove he is the same category of Big 3? To whom? He could be a 6-7 slam winning guy for all we know but that would still be enough to bring Novak down, there is no pressure on him, the pressure is on Djokovic now that he is losing at slams to someone who will bring him down. The immense pressure is on Djokovic to win another slam or 2. Otherwise the Bull could sneak up and win 1-2 frenchs, the pressure is on Novak to win more.
 
Alcaraz having pressure ?

What are you talking about? A 20 year old who is rapidly getting better having more pressure than an aging 36 year old? Lol you wish

Who says Alcaraz has to prove he is the same category of Big 3? To whom? He could be a 6-7 slam winning guy for all we know but that would still be enough to bring Novak down, there is no pressure on him, the pressure is on Djokovic now that he is losing at slams to someone who will bring him down. The immense pressure is on Djokovic to win another slam or 2. Otherwise the Bull could sneak up and win 1-2 frenchs, the pressure is on Novak to win more.
This brings up an interesting question, actually how many slams does Alcaraz need to prove that? I say realistically double digits would be enough to establish that caliber without any room for doubt.
 
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