Analysis and stats about doping incidents required

Sudacafan

Sudacafan

Bionic Poster
This is a hot topic nowadays, and I would like to build some data analysis.
In that sense, my questions would be the following, for which I would ask volunteers to provide analysis, charts, etc. , about:

1. What is the percentage of doping suspensions that are contested by the defendants?
This means, I always read that the player sanctioned most times says he/she is innocent, and that the doping occured because of contaminated substances, involuntary circumstances, whatever.
I mean, has there ever been a case in which the defendant said, oh yeah, I am guilty.

2. What is the excuse presented alleging innocence?
Related with the prior question, a table of the excuses presented

3. Nationality of suspended/pardoned players.
A chart with the citizenship of players suspended/pardoned since the controls started to be made.

4. Detected prohibited substances
A chart with which was the substance found in the tests.

5. ATP/WTA ranking of suspended/pardoned players
A chart with the ranking of the suspended/pardoned players at the moment of the tests.

6. Time elapsed between test detecting the substance and results published

7. Duration of suspensions

8. Any other aspect of interest, etc.
 
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All this hypocritical furor over PEDs is comical. This reminds me of when everyone was so upset about Lance Armstrong's alleged (and later proved) use of PEDs. The reason why they were so sure he was on PEDs? Because they were all using PEDs and he was still beating them.

PED use is widespread in all professional sports. There is too much money at stake for there not to be. Sinner's actual sin is being stupid enough to get caught even though Djokovic and Nadal fought to have tennis implement one of the least effective programs of testing possible.

Everyone is using PEDs and honestly who cares. They're all doing it anyway AND studies haven't shown any broad negative health impacts from most of the PEDs being used AND if it improves the product I'm all for it.
 
happyandbob said:
All this hypocritical furor over PEDs is comical. This reminds me of when everyone was so upset about Lance Armstrong's alleged (and later proved) use of PEDs. The reason why they were so sure he was on PEDs? Because they were all using PEDs and he was still beating them.

PED use is widespread in all professional sports. There is too much money at stake for there not to be. Sinner's actual sin is being stupid enough to get caught even though Djokovic and Nadal fought to have tennis implement one of the least effective programs of testing possible.

Everyone is using PEDs and honestly who cares. They're all doing it anyway AND studies haven't shown any broad negative health impacts from most of the PEDs being used AND if it improves the product I'm all for it.
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OK, thanks. This is helpful.
About health impacts, are we sure Nadal hair loss is not related with any of these?
 
Sudacafan said:
OK, thanks. This is helpful.
About health impacts, are we sure Nadal hair loss is not related with any of these?
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Oh, for sure it's related. Steroid use also increases DHT levels, which is linked to hair loss. But then you have guys like Djoker who magically go from someone who can't finish a match to being an ultimate grind master.

Could be gluten related, could be EPO related. I guess we will never know <wink>. But they still won their matches on the court against guys who were also doing everything they could to get an edge.
 
happyandbob said:
Oh, for sure it's related. Steroid use also increases DHT levels, which is linked to hair loss. But then you have guys like Djoker who magically go from someone who can't finish a match to being an ultimate grind master.

Could be gluten related, could be EPO related. I guess we will never know <wink>. But they still won their matches on the court against guys who were also doing everything they could to get an edge.
Click to expand...

Most balanced perspective. do you think the best player is someone with the best juice or all juice are equally effective?
 
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NeutralFan said:
Most balanced perspective. I think do you think the best player is someone with the best juice or all juice are equally effective?
Click to expand...
It's the same question as the best coach or the best genetics or the richest parents. The proof is in the pudding, what happens on the court is what matters.

Michael Phelps is lauded as the greatest swimmer of all time. Does it matter that he has a genetic defect that causes his body to not produce lactic acid, which gives him a greater advantage for an endurance athlete than any PED could ever create? How is that different than someone choosing to blood dope using his own blood to increase his endurance?
 
happyandbob said:
It's the same question as the best coach or the best genetics or the richest parents. The proof is in the pudding, what happens on the court is what matters.

Michael Phelps is lauded as the greatest swimmer of all time. Does it matter that he has a genetic defect that causes his body to not produce lactic acid, which gives him a greater advantage for an endurance athlete than any PED could ever create? How is that different than someone choosing to blood dope using his own blood to increase his endurance?
Click to expand...

True, we might never know but even smallest of change can bring tremendous result. Like you said Djokovic turned in to the stamina man of ATP from a perennial quitter and look at the results. Manifold increase in result over small changes.
 
happyandbob said:
It's the same question as the best coach or the best genetics or the richest parents. The proof is in the pudding, what happens on the court is what matters.

Michael Phelps is lauded as the greatest swimmer of all time. Does it matter that he has a genetic defect that causes his body to not produce lactic acid, which gives him a greater advantage for an endurance athlete than any PED could ever create? How is that different than someone choosing to blood dope using his own blood to increase his endurance?
Click to expand...
No, it doesn’t matter. You are supposed to follow the laws/rules in life and only those who are successful doing that are considered successes. Phelps followed the rules and his inherent physical advantage is within the rules. Others who don’t follow the doping rules are cheats.
 
socallefty said:
No, it doesn’t matter. You are supposed to follow the laws/rules in life and only those who are successful doing that are considered successes. Phelps followed the rules and his inherent physical advantage is within the rules. Others who don’t follow the doping rules are cheats.
Click to expand...
Ok. Then we agree most professional and Olympic athletes are cheats. I think the difference is you are using that word pejoratively whereas I think it shows their dedication to being the best at their craft.
 
happyandbob said:
It's the same question as the best coach or the best genetics or the richest parents. The proof is in the pudding, what happens on the court is what matters.

Michael Phelps is lauded as the greatest swimmer of all time. Does it matter that he has a genetic defect that causes his body to not produce lactic acid, which gives him a greater advantage for an endurance athlete than any PED could ever create? How is that different than someone choosing to blood dope using his own blood to increase his endurance?
Click to expand...
I thought Phelps had a genetic defect that made his hands and toes webbed like aqua man?
 
happyandbob said:
Ok. Then we agree most professional and Olympic athletes are cheats. I think the difference is you are using that word pejoratively whereas I think it shows their dedication to being the best at their craft.
Click to expand...
Unless someone gets caught, I don’t know who is cheating. Just like I don’t know which of the people in my neighborhood or workplace are criminals unless they get arrested. I would assume that many might be doping in sports or are committing white collar crimes otherwise, but I am not going to blindly accuse people unless they are at least charged with a failed doing test in sports or crime otherwise.

Also I do think anyone who doesn’t follow laws or rules is a criminal or a crook/cheat. If you don’t like laws, do what is allowed in your society to try and change them. Don’t just follow the rules/laws that make sense to you and expect to get sympathy from other law-abiding citizens or sportspeople.
 
travlerajm said:
I thought Phelps had a genetic defect that made his hands and toes webbed like aqua man?
Click to expand...
His whole body is a genetic defect engineered perfectly for swimming. He produces half the lactic acid of normal people, his joints and ligaments are unusually flexible (Marfan's level flexible), he's 6' 4" tall but he has the wingspan of a person who is 6' 8" with super short legs for his height (he's all torso and arms). It's like his parents gave him money to buy the cheat code for the game of swimming.
 
Sudacafan said:
This is a hot topic nowadays, and I would like to build some data analysis.
In that sense, my questions would be the following, for which I would ask volunteers to provide analysis, charts, etc. , about:

1. What is the percentage of doping suspensions that are contested by the defendants?
This means, I always read that the player sanctioned most times says he/she is innocent, and that the doping occured because of contaminated substances, involuntary circumstances, whatever.
I mean, has there ever been a case in which the defendant said, oh yeah, I am guilty.

2. What is the excuse presented alleging innocence?
Related with the prior question, a table of the excuse presented

3. Nationality of suspended/pardoned players.
A chart with the citizenship of players suspended/pardoned since the controls started to be made.

4. Detected prohibited substances
A chart with which was the substance found in the tests.

5. ATP/WTA ranking of suspended/pardoned players
A chart with the ranking of the suspended/pardoned players at the moment of the tests.

6. Time elapsed between test detecting the substance and results published

7. Duration of suspensions

8. Any other aspect of interest, etc.
Click to expand...
disagree
 
happyandbob said:
His whole body is a genetic defect engineered perfectly for swimming. He produces half the lactic acid of normal people, his joints and ligaments are unusually flexible (Marfan's level flexible), he's 6' 4" tall but he has the wingspan of a person who is 6' 8" with super short legs for his height (he's all torso and arms). It's like his parents gave him money to buy the cheat code for the game of swimming.
Click to expand...
So basically has the build of a bottlenose dolphin.
 
socallefty said:
Unless someone gets caught, I don’t know who is cheating. Just like I don’t know which of the people in my neighborhood or workplace are criminals unless they get arrested. I would assume that many might be doping in sports or are committing white collar crimes otherwise, but I am not going to blindly accuse people unless they are at least charged with a failed doing test in sports or crime otherwise.

Also I do think anyone who doesn’t follow laws or rules is a criminal or a crook/cheat. If you don’t like laws, do what is allowed in your society to try and change them. Don’t just follow the rules/laws that make sense to you and expect to get sympathy from other law-abiding citizens or sportspeople.
Click to expand...
So it's not cheating until you know who is cheating. So if Sinner hadn't been caught, he wouldn't be a cheater. You fall on the side of trees in the forest don't make any noise. Got it.
 
happyandbob said:
But then you have guys like Djoker who magically go from someone who can't finish a match to being an ultimate grind master.

Could be gluten related, could be EPO related. I guess we will never know <wink>. But they still won their matches on the court against guys who were also doing everything they could to get an edge.
Click to expand...

Now that your fave is caught red handed everyone is doing it and you just know it because... Novak did it by hard work and dedication and no way was he just allowed (by the big money you talk about in another post) to dope himself to dismantling of Fedal golden goose fairy tale. And Novak was quitting some matches because he had trouble breathing. Do enlighten me which PED solved that one?
 
Sudacafan said:
Time elapsed between test detecting the substance and results published
Click to expand...

It took over 3 weeks for Sinner to receive his test result back from ITIA. So weeks before test results arrive must be the norm.
OTOH, with Sinner's resources surely he would be constantly sending his urine samples to a 24 hour private lab to stay one step ahead of the doping police.
 
An adult chimpanzee is supposedly 4x as strong as a human, despite having roughly the same muscle mass.

The chimpanzee’s super-human strength comes from the mechanical advantage of having its muscle-tendon insertion points better optimized for explosive strength.

I’ve often wondered if a human could gain athletic advantage by having his muscles surgically reattached and better optimized?

It’s technically within the rules.
 
Better_Call_Raul said:
It took over 3 weeks for Sinner to receive his test result back from ITIA. So weeks before test results arrive must be the norm.
OTOH, with Sinner's resources surely he would be constantly sending his urine samples to a 24 hour private lab to stay one step ahead of the doping police.
Click to expand...
Thanks for being the first one to answer to any of the questions. The rest was just trolling.
 
travlerajm said:
An adult chimpanzee is supposedly 4x as strong as a human, despite having roughly the same muscle mass.

The chimpanzee’s super-human strength comes from the mechanical advantage of having its muscle-tendon insertion points better optimized for explosive strength.

I’ve often wondered if a human could gain athletic advantage by having his muscles surgically reattached and better optimized?

It’s technically within the rules.
Click to expand...
And what about 800 pound gorillas? Would they serve faster than Karlovic or Isner?
 
Sudacafan said:
OK, please opine without providing any charts, stats, or whatever.
As always.
Click to expand...
Only stat I need is ratings.

MLB in the 90s and cycling during Lance days. People can say what they want. But they viewed it and followed it, and spent more money on it than ever before. People do not care about stereroids.

They just do not want to be told about it.
 
happyandbob said:
Everyone is using PEDs and honestly who cares. They're all doing it anyway AND studies haven't shown any broad negative health impacts from most of the PEDs being used AND if it improves the product I'm all for it.
Click to expand...

PHYSIOLOGICAL​

  • Acne
  • Male pattern baldness
  • Liver damage*
  • Premature closure of the growth centers of long bones (in adolescents) which may result in stunted growth*
  • Stunted growth and disruption of puberty in children
  • Increased aggressiveness and sexual appetite, sometimes resulting in abnormal sexual and criminal behavior, often referred to as “Roid Rage”
  • Withdrawal from anabolic steroid use can be associated with depression, and in some cases, suicide

GENDER SPECIFIC – MALES​

  • Breast tissue development*
  • Shrinking of the testicles*
  • Impotence
  • Reduction in sperm production

GENDER SPECIFIC – FEMALES​

  • Deepening of the voice*
  • Cessation of breast development
  • Growth of hair on the face, stomach and upper back*
  • Enlarged clitoris*
  • Abnormal menstrual cycles
 
Born_to_slice said:
Now that your fave is caught red handed everyone is doing it and you just know it because... Novak did it by hard work and dedication and no way was he just allowed (by the big money you talk about in another post) to dope himself to dismantling of Fedal golden goose fairy tale. And Novak was quitting some matches because he had trouble breathing. Do enlighten me which PED solved that one?
Click to expand...
Steroids are used for breathing disorders, as asthma, for example.
 
Impetus said:

PHYSIOLOGICAL​

  • Acne
  • Male pattern baldness
  • Liver damage*
  • Premature closure of the growth centers of long bones (in adolescents) which may result in stunted growth*
  • Stunted growth and disruption of puberty in children
  • Increased aggressiveness and sexual appetite, sometimes resulting in abnormal sexual and criminal behavior, often referred to as “Roid Rage”
  • Withdrawal from anabolic steroid use can be associated with depression, and in some cases, suicide

GENDER SPECIFIC – MALES​

  • Breast tissue development*
  • Shrinking of the testicles*
  • Impotence
  • Reduction in sperm production

GENDER SPECIFIC – FEMALES​

  • Deepening of the voice*
  • Cessation of breast development
  • Growth of hair on the face, stomach and upper back*
  • Enlarged clitoris*
  • Abnormal menstrual cycles
Click to expand...
Please clarify what the * at the end of each symptom means, especially for the second to last one.
 
Sudacafan said:
Please clarify what the * at the end of each symptom means, especially for the second to last one.
Click to expand...
I didn’t write it. I just learned how to copy paste and I wanted to show my newfound skill.
www.usada.org

Effects of Performance-Enhancing Drugs | USADA

The side effects of performance-enhancing drugs (PEDs) can be dangerous and negative for athletes causing health issues including strokes and heart attacks.
www.usada.org www.usada.org
 
Impetus said:
I didn’t write it. I just learned how to copy paste and I wanted to show my newfound skill.
www.usada.org

Effects of Performance-Enhancing Drugs | USADA

The side effects of performance-enhancing drugs (PEDs) can be dangerous and negative for athletes causing health issues including strokes and heart attacks.
www.usada.org www.usada.org
Click to expand...

Your list omitted the biggest downside.
:rolleyes:

image.png

image.png
 
Born_to_slice said:
Now that your fave is caught red handed everyone is doing it and you just know it because... Novak did it by hard work and dedication and no way was he just allowed (by the big money you talk about in another post) to dope himself to dismantling of Fedal golden goose fairy tale. And Novak was quitting some matches because he had trouble breathing. Do enlighten me which PED solved that one?
Click to expand...
My fave? Find one post where I was shilling for sinner, please. I mostly back Americans.
 
Impetus said:

PHYSIOLOGICAL​

  • Acne
  • Male pattern baldness
  • Liver damage*
  • Premature closure of the growth centers of long bones (in adolescents) which may result in stunted growth*
  • Stunted growth and disruption of puberty in children
  • Increased aggressiveness and sexual appetite, sometimes resulting in abnormal sexual and criminal behavior, often referred to as “Roid Rage”
  • Withdrawal from anabolic steroid use can be associated with depression, and in some cases, suicide

GENDER SPECIFIC – MALES​

  • Breast tissue development*
  • Shrinking of the testicles*
  • Impotence
  • Reduction in sperm production

GENDER SPECIFIC – FEMALES​

  • Deepening of the voice*
  • Cessation of breast development
  • Growth of hair on the face, stomach and upper back*
  • Enlarged clitoris*
  • Abnormal menstrual cycles
Click to expand...
those are short term impacts or cosmetic or treatable. When people talk about health impacts it’s lifespan, heart disease etc. There hasn’t been evidence of PED’s having negative impact on that.
 
travlerajm said:
An adult chimpanzee is supposedly 4x as strong as a human, despite having roughly the same muscle mass.

The chimpanzee’s super-human strength comes from the mechanical advantage of having its muscle-tendon insertion points better optimized for explosive strength.

I’ve often wondered if a human could gain athletic advantage by having his muscles surgically reattached and better optimized?

It’s technically within the rules.
Click to expand...
it’s already happening. High school pitchers are proactively getting Tommy John surgery because pitchers often gain a few miles per hour when the new tendon replaces their original ligament.
 
Born_to_slice said:
Now that your fave is caught red handed everyone is doing it and you just know it because... Novak did it by hard work and dedication and no way was he just allowed (by the big money you talk about in another post) to dope himself to dismantling of Fedal golden goose fairy tale. And Novak was quitting some matches because he had trouble breathing. Do enlighten me which PED solved that one?
Click to expand...
riddle me this Batman. Why is it do you think that Djokovic led the effort to block drug testing in tennis? What’s your explanation for his behavior?
 
norcal said:
Crazy all these pro cyclists (and Djoko) claim to suffer from asthma.

Back when I was in school, the asthmatic kids couldn't run a mile and were the last to picked on teams. How times have changed!
Click to expand...
And don't forget the coincidentally large number of reported athletes suffering from ADHD
 
norcal said:
Crazy all these pro cyclists (and Djoko) claim to suffer from asthma.

Back when I was in school, the asthmatic kids couldn't run a mile and were the last to picked on teams. How times have changed!
Click to expand...
Someone must publish the stats on pro athletes vs. commoners for asthma prescription rates.
 
Born_to_slice said:
So why not get tue for that and instead go with gluten free diet? Makes zero sense for someone who wants to dope.
Click to expand...
Because you can't live on those continually. Gluten free is the safest way to go.
Those drugs have adverse long-term effects, same as covid vaccines which kill people in less than fifty years time since administered.
 
They all do whatever they can to improve their performance and dip their toe in the gray area as much as possible and as much as they can get away with.

I don't think any of the top guys are blatantly doping though.
 
Some of the attitudes on here are so strange. Do people really want to go back to the days of the East German swim team again? Come on. No system is perfect and none ever will be but to just throw up the arms and say ahhhhhhh screw it is ridiculous.
 
insideguy said:
Some of the attitudes on here are so strange. Do people really want to go back to the days of the East German swim team again? Come on. No system is perfect and none ever will be but to just throw up the arms and say ahhhhhhh screw it is ridiculous.
Click to expand...
Agree. We had forgotten that Communist countries doping was the worst of all times.
Nadia Comaneci at 14 years old was doing incredible things.
 
The problem will be in the year 2050 when genetic engineering becomes a thing and some billionaire wants his kid to win 30 slams…
 
KingCarlitos said:
The problem will be in the year 2050 when genetic engineering becomes a thing and some billionaire wants his kid to win 30 slams…
Click to expand...
Let them try. Every time the human race thinks itself clever and want to modify nature it ends up with a major back backlash.

I don't doubt some people will try it with quantum computing in 10-15 years.

They will fail.
 
happyandbob said:
Oh, for sure it's related. Steroid use also increases DHT levels, which is linked to hair loss. But then you have guys like Djoker who magically go from someone who can't finish a match to being an ultimate grind master.

Could be gluten related, could be EPO related. I guess we will never know <wink>. But they still won their matches on the court against guys who were also doing everything they could to get an edge.
Click to expand...
"Of, for sure, it's related"

Yeah, because genetics (the most common cause of baldness) does not exist.

Rafa's maternal grandfather is bald. Typical case of male pattern baldness inherited through the mother's side. Waiting for the haters to claim it's substances' related despite th fact that such claim has no empirical evidence to support it, as Nadal has never tested positive.
 
happyandbob said:
All this hypocritical furor over PEDs is comical.
Click to expand...

Yup. And player backlash is usually about the inequality of access really, where as you "breakthrough" and have enough funds as a top player, you can afford better doctors and designer PEDs that clear the system quick, but have residual metabolic and aerobic benefits. All without being detected, or at least not fitting a chemical profile that is being looked for...yet. I've said before, Gatorade is a PED, or a "secret bottle of water with powder mixed in given to a player from the coach in a match, right? They are engineers and concocted to help a player overcome physical limitations by changing physiology.

And as stakes and money increases, so will the development of circumventing detection.
 
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