Andy Murray booed after underarm service...

[King No1e]

Does this under arm serve finally classify Murray as ‘talented’ like Nick Kyrgios?

Or maybe he needs to hit a few more unnecessary easy tweeners to get there yet

Don't forget trash talking other players for no reason and cheating on his GF

 

[King No1e]

By the logic here exposed, you can't do anything in any sport that the opponent doesn't expect, you can't do a fake shot in basketball, a fake throw I baseball, a fake pass in football, etc...

No, there are tons of fake shots/trick shots out there that aren't underhand serves. No one boos all the wholly unnecessary "fake" shots Monfils tries - the underhand serve is just traditionally thought of as a cheap shot, and tennis is a very tradition-heavy game.

IMO, underhand serves are technically okay, but I still tend to think of them as an exhibition shot that I wouldn't like to see much of in real competition unless you just can't hit a proper serve (in which case, you're either Michael Chang or you're getting your @$$ kicked)

 

[beltsman]

It's okay as long as the opponent is ready. That's the only issue. It's easy to sneak against an unready opponent.

 

[srimes]

In this case his opponent wasn't watching when he served. He was clearly looking down at his feet. By the time he looked up the ball was crossing the net. Should he have claimed he wasn't ready?

 

[wangs78]

Messing up an opponents's timing is what players have been doing to win matches ever since the first tennis ball was gently lobbed over the net on Wimbledon's croquet lawn.

I don’t think a lob is comparable to serving before your opponent is ready. I would never deliberately serve before the returner is ready (as long as he’s not deliberately taking his time to get ready) even if it’s within the rules. For the same reason, I don’t like it when a server bounces the ball for 3 seconds most of the time but on important points, stretches it to 10 seconds. Because at that point, you’re not trying to win on the basis of your tennis but on the basis of distracting your opponent. If you think that’s ok, then maybe the game should do away with all hindrance rules and allow players to yell and flap their arms when their opponent is about to hit a shot.

 

[DjokoLand]

This shows that the tennis audience is older and struggling to get younger viewers. Can you imagine a 20 year old booing a underarm serve ? They probably think it’s cool.
It’s like baseball with the unwritten rules that more old school players take get annoyed by it

 

[Fairhit]

In this case his opponent wasn't watching when he served. He was clearly looking down at his feet. By the time he looked up the ball was crossing the net. Should he have claimed he wasn't ready?

Once the receiver is ready, the server starts his serving ritual, he does not have to do it every time the same, he can bounce the ball 10 times in one serve and just one for another, after the receiver is ready is his own responsibility if he becomes unready again.

 

[Tshooter]

The issue is not the underarm serve which is totally legit it’s that players no longer precede the serve by announcing to the opponent “here it comes ol’ sport” and tipping their cap, which is not cool.

 

[Tshooter]

Once the receiver is ready, the server starts his serving ritual, he does not have to do it every time the same, he can bounce the ball 10 times in one serve and just one for another, after the receiver is ready is his own responsibility if he becomes unready again.

 

[tex123]

When I just started playing tennis many years ago, all of my groundstrokes were slice. I frequently executed dropshots on both forehand and backhand very easily, because all of those under spin groundstrokes had developed my drop shots technique quickly.

You don't have to be advanced to be able to hit a dropshot. I was just a beginner when I started doing dropshots.

You may be an exception because of the way you learned your groundstrokes and it comes naturally to you. Most people don't. They start out to learn topspin forehand and backhand with good consistency. Coaches don't teach you drop shots until you have developed a good consistency in your shots. It is an advanced skill. To be able to rally, then disguise your shot, take the pace off then ball and land it with a lot of underspin close to the net takes a LOT of skill to do it consistently.
That's why pros don't do it often - you see Nadal and Djokovic with exquisite drop shots and some horror show shots. There is a great deal of risk with this type of shot. It is not something people are comparing to an underarm serve which is like the bread and butter of any tennis player. The only skill is spontaneity of such shots i.e. the surprise element. Execution - not so much.

 

[tex123]

In what conceivable way can an underarm serve (which plenty of players have used in the past including Nadal) compare to an over-extended toilet break?

Both can be classed as cheating and both can be classed as a legitimate tactic - depends on your interpretation. Plenty of players have used "over extended" toilet breaks in the past including Djokovic.

 

[Max G.]

Hitting an underarm serve is easy. Hitting an underarm serve WELL is hard.

Kinda like a normal serve, really. Anyone can use a frying pan grip and dink the ball over. Hitting a hard serve at the line is tough.

Same with underarm serve. Getting it in is easy. Making it not get crushed is tough.

 

[tex123]

In Cricket, underarm is banned. Imagine a bowler running in and then bowls underarm. Or imagine a bowler deliberately bowling underarm so that ball stays low and the batter can't hit a six. They banned it. Why? Because it is cheating.

Tennis needs better rules.

--------------------------------
The Laws of Cricket now (2000 Code) declare that an underarm delivery is illegal unless otherwise agreed before the match.[4]

A delivery is a no-ball if it bounces more than twice before passing the popping crease: an underarm delivery cannot be performed rolling along the ground. A pitched underarm delivery is a good ball, providing it only pitches once, and providing the opposing captain has agreed beforehand that the style may be used.

 

[Jokervich]

This shows that the tennis audience is older and struggling to get younger viewers. Can you imagine a 20 year old booing a underarm serve ? They probably think it’s cool.
It’s like baseball with the unwritten rules that more old school players take get annoyed by it

Maybe the younger viewers can't afford to buy tickets?

 

[Fairhit]

This is akin to bannig the dip drive because some people can't handle it, there are a lot of ways to hit a ball and the gold is the same, to gain a point by the means necessary within the rules, banning any kind of shot is the same to rewarding those who cannot execute it.

 

[DjokoLand]

Maybe the younger viewers can't afford to buy tickets?

Well that is also a decent point but tennis is definitely one of the sports that the average age of viewers is higher.

 

[Jokervich]

Well that is also a decent point but tennis is definitely one of the sports that the average age of viewers is higher.

It would be interesting if the sport is struggling to get younger viewers. Maybe the sport is dying? I wonder what it will be like when the big 3 retire.

 

[DjokoLand]

It would be interesting if the sport is struggling to get younger viewers. Maybe the sport is dying? I wonder what it will be like when the big 3 retire.

It will be bad. For a a while it will be exciting with different winners most slams but then the level be so much lower than the last 20 years people will stop caring

 

[Permitlady]

I’m not a fan but that just me being a traditionalist. The only thing I didn’t love about Murray doing it was that it didn’t appear that Alcarez was ready to return when he hit it. But cheers to the teenager taking that in stride.

They're never ready

 

[most_exhausted_player]

Easy to fix. Paint a line 2 feet behind the baseline. Going behind the line is a foot fault.

 

[guanzishou]

You may be an exception because of the way you learned your groundstrokes and it comes naturally to you. Most people don't. They start out to learn topspin forehand and backhand with good consistency. Coaches don't teach you drop shots until you have developed a good consistency in your shots. It is an advanced skill. To be able to rally, then disguise your shot, take the pace off then ball and land it with a lot of underspin close to the net takes a LOT of skill to do it consistently.
That's why pros don't do it often - you see Nadal and Djokovic with exquisite drop shots and some horror show shots. There is a great deal of risk with this type of shot. It is not something people are comparing to an underarm serve which is like the bread and butter of any tennis player. The only skill is spontaneity of such shots i.e. the surprise element. Execution - not so much.

My coach back then told me that I have a soft hand and great touch so he encouraged me to develop the slices, dropshots and drop volleys. Now I can hit topspin and flat groundstrokes. The slices and dropshots and drop volleys are very handy weapons.

 

[Arak]

No, there are tons of fake shots/trick shots out there that aren't underhand serves. No one boos all the wholly unnecessary "fake" shots Monfils tries - the underhand serve is just traditionally thought of as a cheap shot, and tennis is a very tradition-heavy game.

IMO, underhand serves are technically okay, but I still tend to think of them as an exhibition shot that I wouldn't like to see much of in real competition unless you just can't hit a proper serve (in which case, you're either Michael Chang or you're getting your @$$ kicked)

When Michael Chang did it I wasn’t surprised. When Nick Kyrgios does it, I’m not surprised either. Both are sneaky honourless personalities. When Murray does it, I find it shocking. He’s the champion of women’s rights and fair play and a fighter against all what is wrong in the world. It’s definitely beneath him.

 

[Fedinkum]

Murray has lowered his bar to Kyrgios...

 

[88fingers]

You can not serve if your opponent is not ready to receive serve. In the video it appears Alcaraz did not look set to receive serve.
Alcaraz could have said "I wasn't ready" and then the point should be replayed. Alcatraz chose not to say anything. I serve underhand once in a while,
but it is not a quick serve like Andy did. I certainly wait until my opponent is ready.

 

[Mainad]

I don’t think a lob is comparable to serving before your opponent is ready. I would never deliberately serve before the returner is ready (as long as he’s not deliberately taking his time to get ready) even if it’s within the rules. For the same reason, I don’t like it when a server bounces the ball for 3 seconds most of the time but on important points, stretches it to 10 seconds. Because at that point, you’re not trying to win on the basis of your tennis but on the basis of distracting your opponent. If you think that’s ok, then maybe the game should do away with all hindrance rules and allow players to yell and flap their arms when their opponent is about to hit a shot.

I meant, of course, to disrupt your opponent's timing by legitimately varying your serve and the pace of your shot, not through unsportsmanlike or illegal gimmicks of any kind.

 

[Mainad]

Both can be classed as cheating and both can be classed as a legitimate tactic - depends on your interpretation. Plenty of players have used "over extended" toilet breaks in the past including Djokovic.

Not at all the same thing. Underarm serving is still serving and part of tennis. Taking extended toilet breaks (unless a player has a genuine call of nature) has nothing to do with playing tennis.

 

[junior74]

It's okay as long as the opponent is ready. That's the only issue. It's easy to sneak against an unready opponent.

Agreed. The like was mostly for the brilliant profile picture, though

 

[Clay lover]

Pretty sure they're the TWers that complain about losing to pushers in tips

 

[LETitBE]

You can not serve if your opponent is not ready to receive serve. In the video it appears Alcaraz did not look set to receive serve.
Alcaraz could have said "I wasn't ready" and then the point should be replayed. Alcatraz chose not to say anything. I serve underhand once in a while,
but it is not a quick serve like Andy did. I certainly wait until my opponent is ready.

why was he not ready?

 

[tex123]

Not at all the same thing. Underarm serving is still serving and part of tennis. Taking extended toilet breaks (unless a player has a genuine call of nature) has nothing to do with playing tennis.

It is NOT the norm. Just because you say it does not make it the norm. It is classed as disrespectful and cheating by many pro players.

Murray cries about Tsitsipas taking a toilet break and he does an underarm. Pot calling kettle black.

 

[Mainad]

It is NOT the norm. Just because you say it does not make it the norm. It is classed as disrespectful and cheating by many pro players.

Murray cries about Tsitsipas taking a toilet break and he does an underarm. Pot calling kettle black.

Completely disagree. Even Nadal, along with many other players, has occasionally used the under-arm serve especially when the match is tough. Nothing like using obvious stalling tactics by leaving the court.

 

[tex123]

Completely disagree. Even Nadal, along with many other players, has occasionally used the under-arm serve especially when the match is tough. Nothing like using obvious stalling tactics by leaving the court.

You're just making stuff up.
Roger has never used underarm although he supported Kyrgios whe he used it against Nadal because Kyrgios is such a fed fan.

Nadal has never used it. In fact, he called Kyrgios disrespectful for using it.

Novak has never used it as far as I know.

It is considered beneath the level of elite players. A cheap dirty trick. Murray should not try and claim some higher ground over toilet break when the "sir" employs a cheap tactic in his washed up days.

 

[Clay lover]

You're just making stuff up.
Roger has never used underarm although he supported Kyrgios whe he used it against Nadal because Kyrgios is such a fed fan.

Nadal has never used it. In fact, he called Kyrgios disrespectful for using it.

Novak has never used it as far as I know.

It is considered beneath the level of elite players. A cheap dirty trick. Murray should not try and claim some higher ground over toilet break when the "sir" employs a cheap tactic in his washed up days.

Opponent not ready=dirty
Opponent ready=perfectly fine

 

[optic yellow]

You're just making stuff up.
Roger has never used underarm although he supported Kyrgios whe he used it against Nadal because Kyrgios is such a fed fan.

Nadal has never used it. In fact, he called Kyrgios disrespectful for using it.

Novak has never used it as far as I know.

It is considered beneath the level of elite players. A cheap dirty trick. Murray should not try and claim some higher ground over toilet break when the "sir" employs a cheap tactic in his washed up days.

“If you do it with the goal to improve your game, or like a tactical thing, I support 100 per cent,” said Nadal. “If you do for disrespect the opponent, is not a good thing."

Source: https://www.rolandgarros.com/en-us/article/rg2020-day-4-diary-rafael-nadal-underarm-serve

 

[tex123]

“If you do it with the goal to improve your game, or like a tactical thing, I support 100 per cent,” said Nadal. “If you do for disrespect the opponent, is not a good thing."

Source: https://www.rolandgarros.com/en-us/article/rg2020-day-4-diary-rafael-nadal-underarm-serve

Stop cherry picking. Read about the incident. Anyone can google. Nadal was furious after the incident.

If it is great play, why haven't Fed, Nadal, Djoko, Waw, Delpo etc. used it? Because it is a cheap dirty trick beneath the level of elites.

 

[Mainad]

You're just making stuff up.
Roger has never used underarm although he supported Kyrgios whe he used it against Nadal because Kyrgios is such a fed fan.

Nadal has never used it. In fact, he called Kyrgios disrespectful for using it.

I was pretty sure I recall seeing Nadal do it once but seems I was wrong. My bad. Nevertheless he has defended it's legitimate use:

“If you do it with the goal to improve your game, or like a tactical thing, I support 100 per cent,” said Nadal. “If you do for disrespect the opponent, is not a good thing.

“Everybody knows internally if you are doing in a good way or in a bad way. For me is no discussion about that. Is part of the rules, you can do it 100 per cent. Is about yourself, if you feel good doing or not. Depends.”

I don't think Murray intended to disrespect his opponent. He was using it tactically against a very difficult opponent.

It is considered beneath the level of elite players. A cheap dirty trick. Murray should not try and claim some higher ground over toilet break when the "sir" employs a cheap tactic in his washed up days.

Well, for one thing, Murray is no longer at the level of an elite player. He is an injured player struggling to become competitive again after undergoing radical hip surgery. But trying to compare hitting an unorthodox serve with leaving the court and not actually playing is just utterly ludicrous. No comparison whatsoever!!

 

[tex123]

Opponent not ready=dirty
Opponent ready=perfectly fine

The success of this trick depends on opponent NOT being ready. If he's ready, underarm is a losing tactic.

 

[tex123]

I was pretty sure I recall seeing Nadal do it once but seems I was wrong. My bad. Nevertheless he has defended it's legitimate use:

“If you do it with the goal to improve your game, or like a tactical thing, I support 100 per cent,” said Nadal. “If you do for disrespect the opponent, is not a good thing.

“Everybody knows internally if you are doing in a good way or in a bad way. For me is no discussion about that. Is part of the rules, you can do it 100 per cent. Is about yourself, if you feel good doing or not. Depends.”

I don't think Murray intended to disrespect his opponent. He was using it tactically against a very difficult opponent.




Well, for one thing, Murray is no longer at the level of an elite player. He is an injured player struggling to become competitive again after undergoing radical hip surgery. But trying to compare hitting an unorthodox serve with leaving the court and not actually playing is just utterly ludicrous. No comparison whatsoever!!

He says it is within the rules - so he can't argue with it. So is toilet break. Why did Murray whine about it?

No comparison because it does not suit your argument. Both are within the rules. I repeat - within the rules. Double standards is just breathtaking.

 

[Mainad]

The success of this trick depends on opponent NOT being ready. If he's ready, underarm is a losing tactic.

No-one is ever ready for an underarm serve but maybe they should be.

 

[Mainad]

He says it is within the rules - so he can't argue with it. So is toilet break. Why did Murray whine about it?

No comparison because it does not suit your argument. Both are within the rules. I repeat - within the rules. Double standards is just breathtaking.

You persistently and wilfully refuse to see the difference between playing a match and not playing a match. Murray and others have no arguments against a player hitting tennis balls at them over the net (unless they are deliberately hitting body shots). They just want to see their opponent there so they can respond. No chance of doing that if your opponent is not there but lurking in the toilets.

I repeat, for the final time, there is no comparison whatsoever!!!

 

[tex123]

You persistently and wilfully refuse to see the difference between playing a match and not playing a match. Murray and others have no arguments against a player hitting tennis balls at them over the net (unless they are deliberately hitting body shots). They just want to see their opponent there so they can respond. No chance of doing that if your opponent is not there but lurking in the toilets.

I repeat, for the final time, there is no comparison whatsoever!!!

You persistently try to make excuses for the sake of your argument. Both are within the rules. Which bit of that text in bold did you not get? It is just that Murray thought he could bully Tsitsipas. If more people started that tactic, it would become the norm. You and your washed up 'Sir CryALot Murray'.

End of story. We agree to disagree.

 

[MichaelNadal]

No-one is ever ready for an underarm serve but maybe they should be.

That's exactly the point

 

[tex123]

No-one is ever ready for an underarm serve but maybe they should be.

Because it is not the norm. It is cheating.

 

[tex123]

No one is ready for a toilet break. May be they should be prepared. It is within the rules after all.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Because it is not the norm. It is cheating.

 

[Enga]

I dunno why tennis acts like it's traditionalist when the equipment has changed drastically to the point that it can barely be called the same game. Baseball is traditionalist. Tennis is snobbist.

 

[Wurm]

In Cricket, underarm is banned. Imagine a bowler running in and then bowls underarm. Or imagine a bowler deliberately bowling underarm so that ball stays low and the batter can't hit a six. They banned it. Why? Because it is cheating.

Underarm bowling is allowed if it's been agreed to and if done the ball isn't allow to bounce twice before reaching the crease, nor are they allowed to roll it.

You can not serve if your opponent is not ready to receive serve. In the video it appears Alcaraz did not look set to receive serve.
Alcaraz could have said "I wasn't ready" and then the point should be replayed. Alcatraz chose not to say anything. I serve underhand once in a while,
but it is not a quick serve like Andy did. I certainly wait until my opponent is ready.

Please watch the whole thing.

Alcaraz was in position at the baseline well ahead of time. The problem for Alcaraz is he dances around whilst waiting to return then as he assumes his returning stance he looks down at his feet, which is what he was doing as Murray struck the ball. It'd be a good idea for anyone serving against him to occasionally get the ball up in the air quickly to try and catch him out until he learns to play to the server's rhythm.

It was a perfectly timed underarm serve.

 

[Gary Duane]

Murray clearly caught Alcaraz in a pattern. Don't make liking it or not liking it a matter of age. I'm one of the oldest people on this site, and I thought it was great. It's a low percentage shot, so pulling it off is extremely hard.

 

[The Harkleroad]

By the logic here exposed, you can't do anything in any sport that the opponent doesn't expect, you can't do a fake shot in basketball, a fake throw I baseball, a fake pass in football, etc...

You have to tell your opponent where your serve is going...

 

[tex123]

Underarm bowling is allowed if it's been agreed to and if done the ball isn't allow to bounce twice before reaching the crease, nor are they allowed to roll it.



Please watch the whole thing.

Alcaraz was in position at the baseline well ahead of time. The problem for Alcaraz is he dances around whilst waiting to return then as he assumes his returning stance he looks down at his feet, which is what he was doing as Murray struck the ball. It'd be a good idea for anyone serving against him to occasionally get the ball up in the air quickly to try and catch him out until he learns to play to the server's rhythm.

It was a perfectly timed underarm serve.

I don't mind people using it. I STILL consider it beneath the level of elite players to use the cheap shot. But I do have a problem with people who on one hand castigate toilet breaks and then clap at the brilliance of underarm serve. That smacks of double standards. Both are not the norm. Both are legal. Both are designed to upset the opponent. Many players consider it disrespectful and I have never seen Rafa or Novak or Fed or Delpo or Waw or Cilic use it. That's because it is a cheap trick.