Your point being?
Andy Murray booed after underarm service...
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Red Rick
Bionic Poster
Karlovic did it as a joke basically and Haas was also laughing IIRC.
Fairhit
Hall of Fame
Apparently for some here it is cheating to disguise your shot, you have to be totally clear to your opponent about your intentions, "I'M GONNA SERVE WIDE TO YOUR BACKHAND EXPECTING A MIDDLE COURT RETURN TO MY FOREHAND, THEN I'LL HIT A CROSS COURT ANGLE, PLEASE BE READY!!!"
And as some have said, hitting an underarm serve is easy, hitting a GOOD underarm serve is hard, it depends on your opponent being far behind the baseline and on your ability to hit it short and low bouncing, it also depends on your opponent being caught off guard, if he is expecting it it is too easy just approach the ball and pound it for a winner.
Alcaraz was ready to receive and Andy saw him getting too far behind the baseline, it was the perfect situation to do it and it was perfectly timed, there's nothing to complain about it, Alcaraz was ready and he ws expecting the whole ritual from Andy, he became unready by his own volition, once your are ready to receive you have to keep your attention the whole time on the server, if he would have done that, with his speed he would surely have gone for the ball but one thing is clear, he would alway be ready and stay ready from now on.
And comparing a legitimate tactic that puts the ball in play with a gamesmanship tactic is too childish to be taken seriously.
Is it not possible to hit a very soft serve, that barely clears the net with regular service motion, like my serves used to be?
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Apparently that's the first thing players learn to do on a practice court i.e. feed the ball underarm. That's how you start your practice session. I'm just a lowly rec player and so are my compatriots at my club. We can all do underarm - you just put slice and underspin on it. It is only used when the opponent is standing far behind the baseline.
The only thing they would need to practice is the surprise element.
optic yellow
Legend
Just watched the video in op and surprised that no one has brought up his comments on the speed of the surface at IW.
It sounds like he would have been furious because he thought it was meant to personally disrespect him. Maybe those players have not used it because they haven't needed to, but they wouldn't say things like what Nadal said unless they didn't have much of a problem with it being used as a gameplay tactic.
It sounds like he would have been furious because he thought it was meant to personally disrespect him. Maybe those players have not used it because they haven't needed to, but they wouldn't say things like what Nadal said unless they didn't have much of a problem with it being used as a gameplay tactic.
Agreed. Alcaraz was ready IMO, two feet widely stood, knee bent, but he was waiting for the usual pattern. I wouldn't take this Andy's underarm serve as something tricky or so. This is a pure tactic but I admit it's gutted for Alcaraz. What I don't agree is the underarm serve in some junior matches that clearly receiver is still moving into position which is clearly not ready. Otherwise, players can always put hands up like Nadal indicating he is not ready. And Andy walked to the bench quietly after the point without any emotion. I found that point quite fair.
Tranqville
Professional
Do you guys remember how Martina HIngis was booed for serving underhanded defending a match point vs Steffi Graf in '99 RG final? So unfair.
RaulRamirez
Legend
I mean, it's legal, but it's borderline.
It's a bit like a quick-serve, like a quick-pitch in baseball. The quick-pitch is fine if the batter is in the batter's box, and nobody has called time out.
It's not a tactic I'm too enamored of. Taking the returner by surprise as to speed and placement is absolutely part of the game, but sneaking it in when the receiver isn't really ready is borderline to me.
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Other points raised:
No comparison to a dropshot whatsoever - which shouldn't have to be explained.
As to booing Andy, I don't know. I didn't watch the match. I respect Andy as a player, and for playing through tough injuries and competing hard, but I lost just a little respect for him when he complained ad nauseum abut Tsitsipas's bathroom break. Now, the underarm serve is not the same, but both are borderline - yet fully permissible - tactics.
It's a bit like a quick-serve, like a quick-pitch in baseball. The quick-pitch is fine if the batter is in the batter's box, and nobody has called time out.
It's not a tactic I'm too enamored of. Taking the returner by surprise as to speed and placement is absolutely part of the game, but sneaking it in when the receiver isn't really ready is borderline to me.
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Other points raised:
No comparison to a dropshot whatsoever - which shouldn't have to be explained.
As to booing Andy, I don't know. I didn't watch the match. I respect Andy as a player, and for playing through tough injuries and competing hard, but I lost just a little respect for him when he complained ad nauseum abut Tsitsipas's bathroom break. Now, the underarm serve is not the same, but both are borderline - yet fully permissible - tactics.
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Beacon Hill
Hall of Fame
It's understandable that Alcaraz was not expecting it, but as soon as the server's feet are "at rest", the serve can come at any time. Returners will adjust as the serve becomes more common, and servers will have to hone their underhand serve skills to make them less obvious.
I think the rule has to be changed to a high above the head toss. The server can still hit an underarm serve, by waiting for the ball to drop, but this will take away the element of sneakiness that in my opinion is the reason why this serve is frowned upon. The way it is now, it’s really a legal cheap shot, and while the rules allow the server to do it, they can‘t forbid the player from being booed and stigmatised in the future. Do it at your own risk, to paraphrase Federer. If you have self respect, don’t do it.
It is exactly comparable to a dropshot because that's what it literally is.
If the receiver is standing too far to the middle, serve wide.
If the receiver is standing too wide, serve up the T.
If the receiver is standing too close in, serve hard to the body.
If the receiver is standing too far back, serve a drop shot.
If the receiver is waiting for the ball toss, serve underarm
FlamingCheeto
Hall of Fame
Legal but still kind of a dick move no matter how you look at it. Had it been reversed with metal hip "old man" Andy getting underarmed, Alcaraz would be even more crucified.
Fairhit
Hall of Fame
I know you're trying to be ironic but you nailed it rigth in the head.If the receiver is waiting for the ball toss, serve underarm
Fairhit
Hall of Fame
So, should be illegal in tennis to play to your opponent's weaknesses?
FlamingCheeto
Hall of Fame
IT walks the fine line of serving when your opponent IS NOT READY versus not expecting it. In almost all cases it's done quickly when the opponent is NOT ready or settled. Which is why it's so effective.
FlamingCheeto
Hall of Fame
lol not at all what i said, but it's kind of like a 5.0 double bageling a 3.5 70 year old man by DROP shotting them lol.
EllieK
Hall of Fame
It will be much more competitive. Much like the WTA is right now. No one will dominate Grand Slams or Masters. I actually think that ATP tennis needs this to maintain interest in the game.
FlamingCheeto
Hall of Fame
At the end of the day, there is something that is universally celebrated called sportsmanship. A sneak serve isn’t that. One can do all sorts of tricks when the ball is in play, but not before.
When a dropshot is executed, the ball is in play. It is coming at you like 80-90 miles an hour. When you are serving underhand, you are starting the play with a yellow ball in your hand. Do I really need to explain this?
gullyfoyleisback
New User
Think most of you are missing Murray’s actual point, and the reasoning behind the underarm serve.
He said that Carlos was receiving from way back in the court, that the balls were heavy the court was slow.
He wanted Carlos to think twice about standing so far back, did it once.
He said that Carlos was receiving from way back in the court, that the balls were heavy the court was slow.
He wanted Carlos to think twice about standing so far back, did it once.
Fairhit
Hall of Fame
That would certainly be legal but not at all well seen and corroborates the point here, Andy did his serve to a fully functional pro player, he didn't took advantage of anything, the only advantage was on Alcaraz who lost his focus for a second there, how is the opponent's focus something not to be exploited?
Yes. Explain all of it.
I've never seen an 80 mph drop shot.
Play starts when the server hits the ball. As long as the receiver is ready to receive when the server starts play, what is the problem exactly?
With the underarm serve, the problem is what happens before the server hits the ball.
Nostradamus
Bionic Poster
ALL USTA players must add this to their repotoiure. It will make you improve at least 1 level or moreWhat do you think ?
MEDIA=twitter]1447314844588261376[/MEDIA]
You can see his interview at 3:00
Jokervich
Hall of Fame
But very few people care about WTA?
RaulRamirez
Legend
A 34-year-old Fed doing the SABR?All I know is one thing...good, bad, right, wrong, different, indifferent...if you can't underarm serve a fit, move like lightning 18 yr old and get away with it, who the hell can ya underarm serve?
TripleATeam
G.O.A.T.
Tennis is a sport. In sport, there are tactical decisions. If you're up against a particularly strong server, you will naturally take a larger advantage by standing further back (neutralizing the shot more). Legitimate tactic. As such, the solution isn't a weak overhead serve (since that will have high bounce and just be easy), the solution is an underhand serve to get a low-bounce short ball.
If the receiver wasn't ready for any serve, that's different. But if they were ready for a blazing hot serve and were given this, it's just like complaining about a serve down the T when you're out wide.
Let alone the fact that this can give you an easy point if your opponent is playing so far back, it's useful because it shows your opponent you're willing to punish them for it. They'll think twice about standing so far back, making the rest of your serves easier too.
Sure, complain if the receiver wasn't ready, but Carlos was. Just wasn't ready for an underhand, which is the point. If someone's ready for it, it's not the right shot to use. Just like any other stroke.
If the receiver wasn't ready for any serve, that's different. But if they were ready for a blazing hot serve and were given this, it's just like complaining about a serve down the T when you're out wide.
Let alone the fact that this can give you an easy point if your opponent is playing so far back, it's useful because it shows your opponent you're willing to punish them for it. They'll think twice about standing so far back, making the rest of your serves easier too.
Sure, complain if the receiver wasn't ready, but Carlos was. Just wasn't ready for an underhand, which is the point. If someone's ready for it, it's not the right shot to use. Just like any other stroke.
EllieK
Hall of Fame
I watch the occasional match. I watched Fernandez and Pavyluchenkova two nights ago and it was very entertaining. I do watch mostly ATP though I personally believe it would be good for the sport to have more guys winning the big ones. I loved it when Andy broke through and Stan won his titles.
Did you even read the post? A drop shot is executed when the ball is in play. You have to absorb 80mph balls coming at you to execute a drop shot.
Server is starting play with a dead ball and a cheap trick.
FlamingCheeto
Hall of Fame
some would call lost his focus = he wasn't ready, so which is it? big difference
Fairhit
Hall of Fame
He was ready to receive and became unready by his own volition, once you are ready to receive everything is game, you can't complain if you lose focus, is entirely on you if you start to focus late or when you see the ball toss.
gullyfoyleisback
New User
STOP, just stop.. underhand is not illegal, we've established that right? so it comes down to being downright dirty because Carlos wasn’t ready.
Will those moaning about it please acknowledge that if you are not ready to receive your opponents serve 4 seconds before he HAS to serve ( failure to do so incurring a penalty ) then the onus is on the receiver if he’s made to look a bit of a mug, which incidentally would have been Murray’s fate if he’d dumped it into the net.
Will those moaning about it please acknowledge that if you are not ready to receive your opponents serve 4 seconds before he HAS to serve ( failure to do so incurring a penalty ) then the onus is on the receiver if he’s made to look a bit of a mug, which incidentally would have been Murray’s fate if he’d dumped it into the net.
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
Way longer than that. Some players in the wool pants era exclusively served underhand
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
How can an underarm serve be classed as "cheating" when absolutely nothing in the rulebook says the serve must be hit overhead?
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
But that has nothing to do with the serve being underarm. You can hit a normal serve when the returner isn't ready. This is a different issue entirely.
How can a 8min toilet break be classed as cheating when there is absolutely nothing in the rule book that defines the length of the break?
Stop please stop. Toilet break is not illegal. The rule book says so. Will the moaning and double standards stop ?
gullyfoyleisback
New User
Please stop conflating.
I would say - please stop the double standards. It stinks.
Wurm
Professional
When the player takes their phone with them and uses it to receive coaching.
optic yellow
Legend
Toilet breaks are an interruption of gameplay whereas the underhand serve is a part of gameplay so they are not intrinsically equivalent things. The rulebook says nothing about toilet breaks because if someone needs to go to the bathroom they need to go; it is not reasonable to ban players from going to the bathroom during their match, but it also is impossible for the rules to define what "fair" usage of this privilege looks like as there is a lot of variability in human biology to account for (you can't just say "no breaks longer than 5 minutes" as sometimes someone does legitimately need this long to, pardon my pun, get their **** together). Contrast with a serve, which is entirely a tennis act and therefore entirely governable by what defines the game.
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