Andy Murray is an ATG.

You don’t need 400 slides and 20,000 posts to settle this.

Andy Murray sits in the 10-15 range of the greatest players of all time. That’s an ATG.

You big 3 circle-jerking, Human Centipede level arselickers can cry about it amongst yourselves.

End of discussion.
Don't start your thread with end of discussion

Murray is not atg and you can't force people. Go to ignore list.
 
20 Big Titles in the CSE (Career Shrinking Era, lol), even Fed shrunk to 17 in those 9 years.

2008 – 16​
Points/yr​
Slams​
Slam F+​
Slam SF+​
Big Titles
Big F+​
Big SF+​
T5 Wins​
T10 Wins​
1​
11461​
12​
20​
27​
45​
66​
90​
80​
170​
2​
8780​
11​
15​
24​
31​
48​
69​
54​
110​
3​
8065​
5​
13​
20 Mury
20 Mury
40​
65​
48​
101​
4​
7451 Mury
3 Mury
11 Mury
18​
17 Fed​
35 Mury
56 Mury
43 Mury
89 Mury
5 (or 4 tie)​
4021 Ferrer​
3 wawa​
3 wawa​
7 wawa​
4 wawa​
8 ferrer​
23 berdy​
24 delpo​
42 tsonga​
 
Reaching finals is not important DJOKOVIC has 37 finals doesnt mean he is better than roger because roger reached 31 finals or rafa 30 finals
Nobody reads
37>31>30 everybody reads
24>22>20 and that is what it is.
Murray with 3 slams is not there

1. Most people would say that 37 > 31, yes
2. We are not talking about Murray being better than b3. But better than b3 and ATG are not the same thing
 
1. Most people would say that 37 > 31, yes
2. We are not talking about Murray being better than b3. But better than b3 and ATG are not the same thing
Problem is everything is so slam focused now. ATG should include everything. That is where Murray starts to gain momentum in that regard. Top 10 in masters, becoming number one in a time of the big 3, and 2 gold medals. Plenty of things to consider.
 
Problem is everything is so slam focused now. ATG should include everything. That is where Murray starts to gain momentum in that regard. Top 10 in masters, becoming number one in a time of the big 3, and 2 gold medals. Plenty of things to co
If you are making case for best 20 players of all times murray will be there but when you are referring to GREAT of games then it is not fair. Murray is olympic great having 2 gold medals .
 
Courier superior, Muri inferior.

And where is Buckethead when we need him the most...
Courier is also an ATG, so no problem here.

Plus, Murray has the all-time record of 2 OG in singles. That is so emblematic and influential. How many all-time records does Courier have in a Big Title? Zero.
 
Courier is also an ATG, so no problem here.

Plus, Murray has the all-time record of 2 OG in singles. That is so emblematic and influential. How many all-time records does Courier have in a Big Title? Zero.
Would always choose Muri's career over Jim's due to Wimbledon titles, but neither guy was ATG imo. Anyway the post was more or less a joke.
 
Would always choose Muri's career over Jim's due to Wimbledon titles, but neither guy was ATG imo. Anyway the post was more or less a joke.
You have schockingly high standards then. But to each its own, obviously you're entitled to your own ranking.
 
You need a high level of play in order to achieve consistency.

Consistency is how well you maintain your level of play, it doesn't really speak on how high that level is.

I mean sure to go consistently deep in slams your level of play has to be high relatively speaking but we're talking about the very best players here (all time greats). If I consider someone like Boris Becker to be cut-off for ATGs, I don't feel Murray's A game reaches the same heights as Becker's A game does, or Agassi's to use another example.

I know you disagree with me that's fine. I could be underrating Murray, but that's just how I see things. I think a lot of it simply comes down to Murray's 2nd serve, if he managed to improve upon that weakness he would have been a much better player IMO.
 
Consistency is how well you maintain your level of play, it doesn't really speak on how high that level is.

I mean sure to go consistently deep in slams your level of play has to be high relatively speaking but we're talking about the very best players here (all time greats). If I consider someone like Boris Becker to be cut-off for ATGs, I don't feel Murray's A game reaches the same heights as Becker's A game does, or Agassi's to use another example.

I know you disagree with me that's fine. I could be underrating Murray, but that's just how I see things. I think a lot of it simply comes down to Murray's 2nd serve, if he managed to improve upon that weakness he would have been a much better player IMO.

But to be consistent (as in winning consistently of course) it is essential to maintain a high level. I feel Murray is so often underrated here because his style of player is understated and more subtle than the flashier, harder hitting, more theatrical type of players whom most on here seem to go for.

Underrating Murray is practically a science around here. :cool:
 
But to be consistent (as in winning consistently of course) it is essential to maintain a high level. I feel Murray is so often underrated here because his style of player is understated and more subtle than the flashier, harder hitting, more theatrical type of players whom most on here seem to go for.

Underrating Murray is practically a science around here. :cool:

High level in navigating the general field is different to high level needed when facing the top players, it's the latter where I feel Murray faltered in slams (I know he was good in masters so no need to bring his H2H or whatever, I don't care for it).

I mean take a look at Nadal vs Murray on grass for example. Murray is a more accomplished grasscourter but in their 3 Wimbledon meetings he's 1-9 in sets, and they're the same age basically. Of course you can counter that with Murray has a great record against Novak on grass and that's fair, but you still get my general point. I don't like Nadal (or especially his fans) but can I really argue that he doesn't have a higher Wimbledon level than Murray? Why didn't he push Nadal to 5 sets in any of those matches? Why did he go down in straights to a 34 year old Fed in 2015 WImbledon SF?

It's not that Murray lost often to the big 3, it's that most of the time he was routined whereas someone with a bigger, more lethal game wouldn't have been. Murray too often gave away too much control to the opponent, and as I sad had that 2nd serve weakness. He had the talent to play more aggressive IMO, he displayed that in say 2012 Olympics or 2008 USO win over peak Rafa but he never developed his game in that direction enough.
 
High level in navigating the general field is different to high level needed when facing the top players, it's the latter where I feel Murray faltered in slams (I know he was good in masters so no need to bring his H2H or whatever, I don't care for it).

I mean take a look at Nadal vs Murray on grass for example. Murray is a more accomplished grasscourter but in their 3 Wimbledon meetings he's 1-9 in sets, and they're the same age basically. Of course you can counter that with Murray has a great record against Novak on grass and that's fair, but you still get my general point. I don't like Nadal (or especially his fans) but can I really argue that he doesn't have a higher Wimbledon level than Murray? Why didn't he push Nadal to 5 sets in any of those matches? Why did he go down in straights to a 34 year old Fed in 2015 WImbledon SF?

It's not that Murray lost often to the big 3, it's that most of the time he was routined whereas someone with a bigger, more lethal game wouldn't have been. Murray too often gave away too much control to the opponent, and as I sad had that 2nd serve weakness. He had the talent to play more aggressive IMO, he displayed that in say 2012 Olympics or 2008 USO win over peak Rafa but he never developed his game in that direction enough.

But, at the end of the day, no player had more success against the Big 3 than Murray. It's idle to speculate on what players of the past or present may have done. You are free to focus on his failures if you like but I prefer to focus on his successes and, for me, they outweigh anything he failed to do.
 
Murray is retired, right?
So nobody has the right to make a thread about him here...
And Murray played 25 slam matches vs. Nadal/Djokovic/Federer, and won just 5 of them.
So he's the weakest ATG ever!
And he's proof that the best player doesn't win the Olympics (other than 2008 Nadal).
 
He's ATG in consistency, but not in level of play IMO.
I'd say it's the other way around. He had subpar longevity but a brutal peak level (inferior to the Big 3, but grest nonetheless).

Longevity is part of of consistency. It's not enough with being consistent in your 20s, nowadays most ATGs across different sports (the Big 3 in tennis, Cristiano and Messi in football, LeBron James, Curry and Durant in basketball) display still top level in their 30s. Murray had 0 longevity in his 30s. He was a few weeks #1 aged 30 in 2017, due to his magnificent 2016, but everyone knows he was the computer #1 in 2017 (losing early at the AO 2017, and failing to reach the SF of IW, Miami, Montecarlo or Madrid, with his only SF in a big title being at RG).

Murray was a non-threat in Slams in his 30s. That damaged a lot his career. If Murray had won 2 Slams in his 30s, he'd have 5 Slams + 2 OG in singles and 41 weeks at #1, so I doubt we would be having this discussion.
 
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