Angle between racket and forearm in 1HBH = 90' ?

[New Daddy]

I've seen instructional videon on the internet preaching that the angle between the racket and the forearm must be 90 degrees in one-handed backhand.
That seems to require a pretty decent degree of cocking in the wrist.
Also, if you keep your wrist cocked at 90', the hitting point would be further in front, as compared to when you keep the angle between the racket and the forearm at, say, 120'.

Can someone comment please?

 

[larry10s]

watch this and tell me what you think
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vq3Pi1KIkT8

 

[charliefedererer]

I've seen instructional videon on the internet preaching that the angle between the racket and the forearm must be 90 degrees in one-handed backhand.
That seems to require a pretty decent degree of cocking in the wrist.
Also, if you keep your wrist cocked at 90', the hitting point would be further in front, as compared to when you keep the angle between the racket and the forearm at, say, 120'.

Can someone comment please?

Everyone seems to agree that one of the secrets to a powerful serve is pronation.

Well, one of the secrets to a powerful one handed backhand is supination.

Maintaining that angle allows you to supinate more powerfully. And the muscles that power that supination are external rotators in the shoulder. So you have both power and consistancy as you are not using small forearm and wrist muscles that would be more prone to fatigue and error.

Also important is maintaining that angle on high shots. I see some people erroneously try to drop their racquet head so that it is more level with the tennis court, rather than the more steeply angled racquet as exhibited by Justin Gimelstob at the end of this FYB's video on how to hit the high backhand: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eODtCid4C0k

And yes, it is important for your contact point to be well out in front.

 

[pvaudio]

Really, it depends on the person. 90deg is the benchmark number, but I've been told everything from slightly bent elbow to a fully straight arm. The actual key is to keep the wrist stable and if you want to vary any angle, vary the angle of the elbow. If you keep the wrist fixed on the racquet and use the shoulder to generate the pace then the forearm supination at the end to generate the topspin, then you've got a huge amount of options.

 

[ProgressoR]

maybe i am half asleep but the L is not at contact point right? surely at contact its much more straight than 90 degrees??
the L is at take back and then the forward swing before contact, but at contact the arm is straightening?
Am i being dense? that has been known to happen.

 

[ProgressoR]

Everyone seems to agree that one of the secrets to a powerful serve is pronation.

Well, one of the secrets to a powerful one handed backhand is supination.

Maintaining that angle allows you to supinate more powerfully. And the muscles that power that supination are external rotators in the shoulder. So you have both power and consistancy as you are not using small forearm and wrist muscles that would be more prone to fatigue and error.

Also important is maintaining that angle on high shots. I see some people erroneously try to drop their racquet head so that it is more level with the tennis court, rather than the more steeply angled racquet as exhibited by Justin Gimelstob at the end of this FYB's video on how to hit the high backhand: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eODtCid4C0k

And yes, it is important for your contact point to be well out in front.

please tell me more about supination in this shot, do you know of any vids?

i know that a good 1hbh is supposed to have wrist extension through contact....not sure if this is linked to supination....i just cannot easily picture supination in this shot...thanks

 

[ProgressoR]

maybe i am half asleep but the L is not at contact point right? surely at contact its much more straight than 90 degrees??
the L is at take back and then the forward swing before contact, but at contact the arm is straightening?
Am i being dense? that has been known to happen.

yeh, being dense, at contact its somewhere 90 and about 120 degrees, just did some shadow shots and answered my question. And of course my shot looks very very much like RF's i wish

 

[LeeD]

Maybe opened up to 115-130 degrees.

 

[pvaudio]

please tell me more about supination in this shot, do you know of any vids?

i know that a good 1hbh is supposed to have wrist extension through contact....not sure if this is linked to supination....i just cannot easily picture supination in this shot...thanks

He's confusing supination with abduction. Supinating at your shoulder does not lead to shoulder rotation. External rotation is a separate movement which is seen if you stick your right upper arm straight out from your shoulder, bend your elbow to create a 90 degree angle, then moving your forearm in a forward or backward arc like in a snapshot of a baseball pitcher. The shoulder joint itself can only supinate a few degrees, and in fact, a supination wrist lock is a type of jujitsu submission hold, in which the wrist and forearm are twisted to the point that the shoulder is the only source of movement:

 

[ProgressoR]

^^^
thanks, however in my experience charliefed has been spot on in posts before.

so what is the wrist supposed to be doing in the 1h bh? just extending at contact?

 

[charliefedererer]

^^^
so what is the wrist supposed to be doing in the 1h bh? just extending at contact?

The wrist remains relatively fixed throughout the shot.

The main movements on the 1HBH come from the shoulder.

"Wristy" backhands will be errant and lead to tennis elbow.

 

[charliefedererer]

He's confusing supination with abduction. Supinating at your shoulder does not lead to shoulder rotation. External rotation is a separate movement which is seen if you stick your right upper arm straight out from your shoulder, bend your elbow to create a 90 degree angle, then moving your forearm in a forward or backward arc like in a snapshot of a baseball pitcher. The shoulder joint itself can only supinate a few degrees, and in fact, a supination wrist lock is a type of jujitsu submission hold, in which the wrist and forearm are twisted to the point that the shoulder is the only source of movement:

Perhaps you will like this better with the added part spelled out in parentheses:

Maintaining that angle allows you to supinate (your forearm) more powerfully. And the muscles that power that supination (of the forearm) are external rotators in the shoulder. So you have both power and consistancy as you are not using small forearm and wrist muscles that would be more prone to fatigue and error.

I agree that the obvious role of the shoulder in the one handed backhand is abduction (i.e. moving the arm away from the body).

But when you are "directing the butt of the racquet at the ball" in the initial part of the forward swing, the forearm is prone (palm of hand faces down). The forearm begins to supinate so that at ball strike the palm is neutral (neither prone or supine) but as this rapid phase of movement continues, the foream ends up supine in the follow through.
What I was trying to address was that this act of supination of the forearm occurs mainly because of the muscles that externally rotate the shoulder, not from the smaller supinator muscles in the forearm.
Also that supination motion occurs late in the forward swing, and is a fairly violent motion that contributes to the speed of the racquet head, in a manner analagous to the pronation that occurs with a serve.

 

[pvaudio]

Perhaps you will like this better with the added part spelled out in parentheses:

Maintaining that angle allows you to supinate (your forearm) more powerfully. And the muscles that power that supination (of the forearm) are external rotators in the shoulder. So you have both power and consistancy as you are not using small forearm and wrist muscles that would be more prone to fatigue and error.

I agree that the obvious role of the shoulder in the one handed backhand is abduction (i.e. moving the arm away from the body).

But when you are "directing the butt of the racquet at the ball" in the initial part of the forward swing, the forearm is prone (palm of hand faces down). The forearm begins to supinate so that at ball strike the palm is neutral (neither prone or supine) but as this rapid phase of movement continues, the foream ends up supine in the follow through.
What I was trying to address was that this act of supination of the forearm occurs mainly because of the muscles that externally rotate the shoulder, not from the smaller supinator muscles in the forearm.
Also that supination motion occurs late in the forward swing, and is a fairly violent motion that contributes to the speed of the racquet head, in a manner analagous to the pronation that occurs with a serve.

That makes sense; the wrist "flick" at the end is simply supination of the forearm

 

[salsainglesa]

the video misses the forest for the trees... the most important angle is the angle at contact point, so you can take the raquet into the ready position in any way, its arbitrary and whatever isconfortable for you is fine...
When it starts to count is when you are starting to swing forward... the thing with federer is that he has a 90 degree angle at that position and it straightens a little before contact and then he lets the wrist go almost entirely... and afterwards at the final part of the followthrough his wrist is bent again, so it is not at 90 degrees all the swing, that would hurt your tendonds, trying to keep that configuration, be loose when you hit, and let the followthrough be natural. loose wrist and use the inertia produced by your legs and shoulders, use the arm as a pendulum... activate your shoulder blades on take back. point with your front shoulder blade,not your back.

The flick is a combination of supination and ulnar deviation. a strong supination also puts a lot of stress in your joint, since the raquet inertia is forward.