Another Federer GOAT discussion point.

[wings56]

One of the Nadal fans cuts to Federer is most obviously their H2H. I've seen many arguments against Federer as the GOAT because of his losing record to Nadal. So, does having a losing record against a player take away from all of the other achievements?

Second question. If the player wasn't so accomplished... say a Nalbandian... would this even be an issue? I don't think anyone would say Federer isnt the GOAT if the person that he was losing to was Nalbandian. Obviously, the number of matches against one another would be much smaller against a lower ranked player but a H2H will still accumulate.

I'm with the camp that thinks the accomplishments speak for themselves regardless of H2H match ups with other players. Feel free to add your thoughts and arguments.

 

[Colin]

H2H is what Roger's haters (aka the Enemies of God) cling to. Because they have nothing else to deny Roger's place, head and shoulders above the rest as the greatest of all time.

 

[Seany]

Sorry Rafa fans, H2H is great, but the number of slams is what counts most by far, it's the stat that will be referred to for decades/centuries to come.

If Rafa gets more slams than Roger, hats off to him, until then no GOAT

 

[tennis_pro]

Every match they played since 2008 has favored Nadal age wise (apart from the obvious match-up issue and slower surfaces nowadays), Federer was NEVER going to end his career with a positive h2h against Nadal because of the no of matches they played after 2007 (and not only on clay) and I'm 100 % sure they're going to play at least 5-10 more matches from now on. The same way Djokovic is going to have a positive h2h against Nadal at the end of their careers won't make him a more accomplished (therefore better) player overall unless he actually wins more majors (which I doubt at this point)

 

[wings56]

Every match they played since 2008 has favored Nadal age wise (apart from the obvious match-up issue and slower surfaces nowadays), Federer was NEVER going to end his career with a positive h2h against Nadal because of the no of matches they played after 2007 (and not only on clay) and I'm 100 % sure they're going to play at least 5-10 more matches from now on. The same way Djokovic is going to have a positive h2h against Nadal at the end of their careers won't make him a more accomplished (therefore better) player overall unless he actually wins more majors (which I doubt at this point)

couldnt have said it better myself.

 

[namelessone]

I'll repeat myself: If Fed fans think the h2h is irrelevant, they should stop defending it. I'm a Nadal fan and I don't give a crap about the h2h but the more Fed fans argue against the h2h(too much clay, Fed out of prime and so on), the more they give importance/relevance to it. Fed fans feed the h2h flame.

H2H shouldn't matter in any comparison unless the players are equally matched in titles.

 

[Bobby Jr]

It's simple: they've never given out any trophies for achieving a certain head to head record.

If you need to ask why you probably wont be able to comprehend the answer.

 

[wings56]

I'll repeat myself: If Fed fans think the h2h is irrelevant, they should stop defending it. I'm a Nadal fan and I don't give a crap about the h2h but the more Fed fans argue against the h2h(too much clay, Fed out of prime and so on), the more they give importance/relevance to it. Fed fans feed the h2h flame.

H2H shouldn't matter in any comparison unless the players are equally matched in titles.

i think its federer fans trying to justify why the h2h is what is is, not necessarily saying that its supposed to be that way. like i said before, i think it doesnt matter what the h2h is, until nadal has accomplished what federer has, federer will still be considered the GOAT.

 

[double barrels]

9+18=27 meetings
Out of those 27 meetings he has seen nadal on clay 14 times. which is more than 50% of their meetings, not by much, and That is federer's worst surface. The 13 times they have played elsewhere, he has won 7-6 times. I would have to consider their clay court rivarly not so much lol. However, their non-clay court rivarly is probably the greatest ever, and federer still holds the edge..

 

[double barrels]

bottomline is 16 grand slams to 10 grand slams, that is what matters most to these guys. and nadal has very good chances of getting there. a few more french trophies, and he's got a look at another one is two nights

 

[ashitaka2010]

More interesting is why so much fans here are OBSESSED with people who do not think the most accomplished player of all time should be considered the greatest. Denying the H2H is as delusional as saying Nadal is no longer in his prime.

 

[borg11]

9+18=27 meetings
Out of those 27 meetings he has seen nadal on clay 14 times. which is more than 50% of their meetings, not by much, and That is federer's worst surface. The 13 times they have played elsewhere, he has won 7-6 times. I would have to consider their clay court rivarly not so much lol. However, their non-clay court rivarly is probably the greatest ever, and federer still holds the edge..

Really? Still holds the edge? With just 2 victories in GS, both in Wimbledon, both when Rafa was young and still learning how to play other surfaces?? With 4 out of 7 victories you are mentioning happening at Final Masters, indoors, at the end of the season when Rafa is burned out phisicaly? Cmon, even you don't believe that. That matchup is so one sided that even blind man can see it. I'm as far as it gets from Rafa fan, but it is just pathetic not to admit that this rivalry is rivalry no more and maybe never was.

 

[borg11]

More interesting is why so much fans here are OBSESSED with people who do not think the most accomplished player of all time should be considered the greatest. Denying the H2H is as delusional as saying Nadal is no longer in his prime.

True that

 

[marcub]

Fed's achievements, talent and elegance make him GOAT, but I, as a Fed fan am bothered by the h2h, there's no going around that.

 

[wings56]

Really? Still holds the edge? With just 2 victories in GS, both in Wimbledon, both when Rafa was young and still learning how to play other surfaces?? With 4 out of 7 victories you are mentioning happening at Final Masters, indoors, at the end of the season when Rafa is burned out phisicaly? Cmon, even you don't believe that. That matchup is so one sided that even blind man can see it. I'm as far as it gets from Rafa fan, but it is just pathetic not to admit that this rivalry is rivalry no more and maybe never was.

this is a good point. they havent really done much competing when both were at peak. either nadal was too young or federer was too old

 

[ZeroSkid]

Fed's achievements, talent and elegance make him GOAT, but I, as a Fed fan am bothered by the h2h, there's no going around that.

LMFAO:lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

[FlashFlare11]

Not only slams, but look at Federer's consistency. He has so many achievements and records in addition to his slams. I mean, 23 consecutive Slams SFs is amazing enough, but having a string of 18/19 Slam finals, 6 YECs, 237-consecutive weeks at No. 1, 285 total (is it too far-fetched to even hope that he'll break Sampras' record?), I could go on. There's so much more than slams and Roger encompasses the entire "GOAT" package more than any other player to date.

In my mind, as it is right now, if Federer isn't the GOAT, then no one can be the GOAT.

 

[Hood_Man]

I wonder sometimes whether it's not a case of Nadal denying Federer two CYGS or how ever many more records etc, but actually that Federer stalled and greatly delayed the Nadal era?

Someone else would have had to take Rogers place as the main rival so perhaps Nadal wouldn't have dominated much more (who knows?), but he surely would at least have been #1 in 2006/2007? Simply because of the absence of a guy winning everything else in sight on his own.

His numerous losses against lots of other players didn't stop him achieving what he did (11 titles in 2005, including a Grand Slam and 4 Masters Shields), and perhaps his losses to Federer prevented him from going further elsewhere, like 2 more Wimbledons, a WTF, Miami 2005 and a record breaking 5th Masters Series title that year.

Without Fed the era may have been more even among other players but Nadal would surely have been top dog a lot sooner.

I do think Fed is at least one of the very best players in history, and it's unfair to use stats in his twilight years to criticise him, but I actually do think the H2H is important. 14 matches were on clay sure, with 12 going to Nadal, but it's not the losses that bother me so much as the way he seems to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in the few matches where he really could or even should have won!

I can honestly say that although his loss to Djokovic at last years US Open more upsetting than todays, it was nowhere near as frustrating. Generally speaking when Fed a chance in that match he took it, and when he had those match points at the end it took one of the ballsiest shots I've ever seen to deny him and knock his senses.

I still think Nadal would lead their H2H even if Federer did have a better breakpoint conversion, but it wouldn't be 18 to flipping 9...

Ignore me if you want, these are the ramblings of a depressed Federer fan...

 

[dimeaxe]

Federer is the Greatest of all time, but not the best player of all time.

 

[Kurte954]

H2H doesn't matter in the GOAT debate. What matters is that Federer consistently dominated the majority of all male tennis players longer and more significantly than any other male tennis player in history. If Nadal were a righty or hit a flatter ball, fed would have gotten the year Grand Slam no less than 3 times. Can't say that about anyone else.

 

[ZeroSkid]

It's simple logic:

Federer: 16 Slams

Nadal: 10 Slams

Federer is GOAT because he has the most Slams. If Nadal gets over 16 slams then he is the GOAT.

GOAT= (All achievements outside Grand Slams x 0) + Total Grand Slams won

 

[Sardines]

I'm just glad I'm alive and watching tennis in probably the golden age of tennis where the 3 top guys are challenging each other with such great matches and pushing each other along.
GOAT or not, Fed has the prettiest game of them all, but the brute force blunt force trauma of Nadal and the gladiatorial athleticism and ability to hit of both wings of Djokovic is simply awesome to watch when they play each other.
Even when Sampras played Agassi, Lendl vs Mcenroe, Becker vs Edberg, never was the play as athletic and powerful as it is now. We should be happy that we have them and just enjoy!