Another option for starting mains

[Muppet]

How's this look?

- Pull tension on both sides of the string
- Set starting clamp on LM1 outside of hoop
- Pull tension on RM1 on same end of hoop as starting clamp
- Secure with fixed clamp
- Pull tension on LM1
- Move starting clamp against frame to take up slack
- Pull tension on RM1 again
- Move fixed clamp to take up slack
- String RM2 and RM3
- Pull tension on LM1 again and remove starting clamp, set fixed clamp
- Continue left, then right, etc.

This seems to give me middle mains that are a firmness between Yusuki and another method I started using that I don't know the name of. The drawback here may be overuse of the starting clamp on a part of the string that passes through the frame.

Maybe I should start naming these methods, just so I can refer to them. Okay, I'll call the one above the "Pull It Again Method." I think I'd like to call the other unnamed method the "Frying Pan Method," because the stringbed is so uniform in stiffness. That method goes like this:

- Pull tension on both sides of the string
- Set starting clamp on LM1 outside of hoop
- Pull tension on LM1 against starting clamp anchor
- Clamp LM1 at opposite end of hoop from starting clamp
- Tension RM1, RM2, and RM3
- Pull tension on LM1 and release the starting clamp, move fixed clamp along length of LM1
- Continue left, then right, etc.

What's nice about this Frying Pan Method is that it produces a very consistent product with fewer surprizes and less to think about for the user.

I'd really like to know what people think of these methods and how they compare to other methods.

Cheers!

 

[Irvin]

How's this look?

- Pull tension on both sides of the string
- Set starting clamp on LM1 outside of hoop
- Pull tension on RM1
- Secure with fixed clamp
- Pull tension on LM1
- Move starting clamp against frame to take up slack
- Pull tension on RM1 again
- Move fixed clamp to take up slack
- String RM2 and RM3
- Pull tension on LM1 again and remove starting clamp, set fixed clamp
- Continue left, then right, etc.

This seems to give me middle mains that are a firmness between Yusuki and another method I started using that I don't know the name of. The drawback here may be overuse of the starting clamp on a part of the string that passes through the frame.

Maybe I should start naming these methods, just so I can refer to them. Okay, I'll call the one above the "Pull It Again Method." I think I'd like to call the other unnamed method the "Frying Pan Method," because the stringbed is so uniform in stiffness. That method goes like this:

- Pull tension on both sides of the string
- Set starting clamp on LM1 outside of hoop
- Pull tension on LM1 against starting clamp anchor
- Clamp LM1 at opposite end of hoop from starting clamp
- Tension RM1, RM2, and RM3
- Pull tension on LM1 and release the starting clamp, move fixed clamp along length of LM1
- Continue left, then right, etc.

What's nice about this Frying Pan Method is that it produces a very consistent product with fewer surprizes and less to think about for the user.

I'd really like to know what people think of these ethods and how they compare to other methods.

Cheers!

The first method has a lot of wasted effort and pulling. The second method won't work. The second step should say RM1 I think. Still the second method has wasted effort. Why not clamp one center string outside the frame with starting clamp and go.

 

[Muppet]

How's this look?

- Pull tension on both sides of the string
- Set starting clamp on LM1 outside of hoop
- Pull tension on RM1
- Secure with fixed clamp
- Pull tension on LM1
- Move starting clamp against frame to take up slack
- Pull tension on RM1 again
- Move fixed clamp to take up slack
- String RM2 and RM3
- Pull tension on LM1 again and remove starting clamp, set fixed clamp
- Continue left, then right, etc.

This seems to give me middle mains that are a firmness between Yusuki and another method I started using that I don't know the name of. The drawback here may be overuse of the starting clamp on a part of the string that passes through the frame.

Maybe I should start naming these methods, just so I can refer to them. Okay, I'll call the one above the "Pull It Again Method." I think I'd like to call the other unnamed method the "Frying Pan Method," because the stringbed is so uniform in stiffness. That method goes like this:

- Pull tension on both sides of the string
- Set starting clamp on LM1 outside of hoop
- Pull tension on LM1 against starting clamp anchor
- Clamp LM1 at opposite end of hoop from starting clamp
- Tension RM1, RM2, and RM3
- Pull tension on LM1 and release the starting clamp, move fixed clamp along length of LM1
- Continue left, then right, etc.

What's nice about this Frying Pan Method is that it produces a very consistent product with fewer surprizes and less to think about for the user.

I'd really like to know what people think of these methods and how they compare to other methods.

Cheers!

The first method has a lot of wasted effort and pulling. The second method won't work. The second step should say RM1 I think. Still the second method has wasted effort. Why not clamp one center string outside the frame with starting clamp and go.

Thanks Irvin

Maybe I wasn't clear. In the Frying Pan method, I do clamp a main under tension with a starting clamp, pulling tension on both center mains, so the starting clamp will have some tension set inside of it. Then rather then set the fixed clamp during the same pull, I release both mains and pull LM1 individually opposite the starting clamp. I clamp that inside the hoop opposite the starting clamp. This gives LM1 and the next pull on that string an equal pre-stretch (LM1 is later tensioned. This was a pre-stretch.) This way all of the strings receive a pre-stretch from the previous pull.

Continue to the right to RM3, release starting clamp and go left, right, etc.

I don't know how much clearer that is. It has more detail, though.

 

[Muppet]

On a scale of predictable and consistent (1) to technical and less consistent (3), I would rate the three methods I know of to start the mains as follows:

1) Frying Pan
2) Pull It Again
3) Yusuki

As you go down the list, you get more pocketing and a sweeter sweetspot. But higher on the list, it's easier to just whail on the ball, or for a novice not suffering from a lack of skills.

 

[Irvin]

Thanks Irvin

Maybe I wasn't clear. In the Frying Pan method, I do clamp a main under tension with a starting clamp, pulling tension on both center mains, so the starting clamp will have some tension set inside of it. Then rather then set the fixed clamp during the same pull, I release both mains and pull LM1 individually opposite the starting clamp...

Well think about it, if LM1 was clamped outside the frame with a starting clamp that wouldn't work would it? You need to clamp one main with the starting clamp (outside the frame) and pull the other. If you pull the one with the starting clamp the clamp would pull right along with the string.

 

[jim e]

On a scale of predictable and consistent (1) to technical and less consistent (3), I would rate the three methods I know of to start the mains as follows:

1) Frying Pan
2) Pull It Again
3) Yusuki

As you go down the list, you get more pocketing and a sweeter sweetspot. But higher on the list, it's easier to just whail on the ball, or for a novice not suffering from a lack of skills.

I go with #3 as that has worked for me, and Tori Yusuki who came up with this, is a well known and respected slam stringer.

 

[Dags]

Thanks Irvin

Maybe I wasn't clear. In the Frying Pan method, I do clamp a main under tension with a starting clamp, pulling tension on both center mains, so the starting clamp will have some tension set inside of it. Then rather then set the fixed clamp during the same pull, I release both mains and pull LM1 individually opposite the starting clamp. I clamp that inside the hoop opposite the starting clamp. This gives LM1 and the next pull on that string an equal pre-stretch (LM1 is later tensioned. This was a pre-stretch.) This way all of the strings receive a pre-stretch from the previous pull.

Continue to the right to RM3, release starting clamp and go left, right, etc.

I don't know how much clearer that is. It has more detail, though.

Have I got this right? Let's say the loop of the mains starts at the head.

1. Pull tension on the two centre mains from the throat, and set the starting clamp on LM1 outside the throat.
2. 'Unpick' the loop at the top, and pull tension on LM1 from the head. Clamp normally.
3. Pull tension on RM1 from the throat, clamp normally.
4. RM2 and RM3 as normal.
5. Pull tension on LM1 from the throat, release the starting clamp, and move the fixed clamp from the head to the throat.

I don't see where any advantage lies in doing this over the Yusuki method, but hopefully I've at least interpreted your instructions correctly.

 

[Irvin]

^^Dags that makes much more sense than the way I was looking at it. I thought he was pulling LM1 from the same end both times.

 

[Muppet]

Have I got this right? Let's say the loop of the mains starts at the head.

1. Pull tension on the two centre mains from the throat, and set the starting clamp on LM1 outside the throat.
2. 'Unpick' the loop at the top, and pull tension on LM1 from the head. Clamp normally.
3. Pull tension on RM1 from the throat, clamp normally.
4. RM2 and RM3 as normal.
5. Pull tension on LM1 from the throat, release the starting clamp, and move the fixed clamp from the head to the throat.

I don't see where any advantage lies in doing this over the Yusuki method, but hopefully I've at least interpreted your instructions correctly.

The only thing here is that I set tension in my starting clamp on LM1 inside the throat, to serve as the anchor clamp.

What makes this different than Yusuki is in the degree to which each string is pre-stretched during the previous pull. In the frying pan method, after the anchor clamp is set, the first pre-stretch for LM1 and RM1 is at full reference tension, like all the other strings. Yusuki method only half pre-stretches the two middle mains. Otherwise, these methods are very similar.

I've also noticed that it might be better to use certain methods for certain string types. But peference rules:

frying pan - multi or natural gut
pull it again - synthetic gut
Yusuki - polyester

Here the stringing method can compensate for the stiffness of the string.

 

[jim e]

With Yusuki, when you pull the 2 center mains you set 2 clamps, the machines and a starter.
With Yusuki method you are not making that 1st pull of reference tension against a single clamp, as a machine clamp is backed up with a starting clamp, which allows you to adjust the machine clamp at a normal set tension on the clamp where you do not crush the string, or allow it to slip for being too loose, no matter what type of string is used.
That 1st pull on a string puts the most force on a clamp be it a starting clamp or machine clamp.
This method also keeps the anchor machine clamp in upright position without falling down after releasing gripper, and string very straight in the machines clamp.

 

[Muppet]

I go with #3 as that has worked for me, and Tori Yusuki who came up with this, is a well known and respected slam stringer.

jim e

I mean no disrespect to Mr. Yusuki or the other two technicians that created the other methods, who I must be unwittingly ripping off.

I started stringing about four years ago and in all that time I have only known about Yusuki as the way to start your mains. Now, all of a sudden, I've discovered two other ways to do it. And all three ways give different enough results to make note of them and share my findings. So now I have three methods to choose from, depending on what kind of playability the player wants and what string material we're using. The amount of liveliness doesn't seem to be affected.

Sorry if I came across as offensive. I've been having fun with this.

Muppet

 

[jmnk]

With Yusuki, when you pull the 2 center mains you set 2 clamps, the machines and a starter.
With Yusuki method you are not making that 1st pull of reference tension against a single clamp, as a machine clamp is backed up with a starting clamp, which allows you to adjust the machine clamp at a normal set tension on the clamp where you do not crush the string, or allow it to slip for being too loose, no matter what type of string is used.
That 1st pull on a string puts the most force on a clamp be it a starting clamp or machine clamp.
This method also keeps the anchor machine clamp in upright position without falling down after releasing gripper, and string very straight in the machines clamp.

That indeed has been mentioned many times (the bolded part). But I wonder - why is that? Where does 'the most force' come from?

 

[Irvin]

That indeed has been mentioned many times (the bolded part). But I wonder - why is that? Where does 'the most force' come from?

The tensioner. On every pull after the first pull there is tension on the opposite side of the tensioner so the tensioner from the tensioner is negated. Of course some methods of starting mains or crosses places less than full tension on the clamp(s.)

 

[jim e]

That indeed has been mentioned many times (the bolded part). But I wonder - why is that? Where does 'the most force' come from?

The first pull on the string when you start there is no opposing force in the other direction from a tensioned string with many methods of starting mains . This is an advantage of a method like the Yusuki method, as when you pull against the anchor clamp there is some force in the opposite direction pulling.

 

[jmnk]

The tensioner. On every pull after the first pull there is tension on the opposite side of the tensioner so the tensioner from the tensioner is negated. Of course some methods of starting mains or crosses places less than full tension on the clamp(s.)

The first pull on the string when you start there is no opposing force in the other direction from a tensioned string with many methods of starting mains . This is an advantage of a method like the Yusuki method, as when you pull against the anchor clamp there is some force in the opposite direction pulling.

well, yes, i get that. But on EVERY main, once you tension and clamp, you also have no tension on the loose end of the string. So the clamp is holding the string that is tensioned from one end only. I really do not see how that is any different compared to a starting main?

 

[Irvin]

well, yes, i get that. But on EVERY main, once you tension and clamp, you also have no tension on the loose end of the string. So the clamp is holding the string that is tensioned from one end only. I really do not see how that is any different compared to a starting main?

The next time you string a racket, before you release the tensioner, start watching the clamp and look to see what happens when you release the tensioner. That is called drawback and when the clamp pulls back the tension is lowered.

 

[jmnk]

The next time you string a racket, before you release the tensioner, start watching the clamp and look to see what happens when you release the tensioner. That is called drawback and when the clamp pulls back the tension is lowered.

sure, i'm not saying that it is not happening, the drawback that is. And it is happening to some degree on every main, after you clamp and release the tensioner. And every stringer accepts that, there's not much you can do about it, no matter how hard you try to minimize it. So why not accept the drawback on the first main as well?

plus, on that first main, the clamp is behind two grommet turns, so actually drawback is going to be somewhat less on that first main pull.

Plus, the clamp is being pulled toward the inside of the frame, so if you set it close to the inside part of the frame you will minimize the drawback as much as possible (I suppose somewhat 'risking' scratching the inside of the frame).

On every other main the clamp is pulled away from the inside of the frame, toward the opposite end (a clamp at the throat is pulled toward the hoop, and vice-versa), and there's nothing to minimize that.

I'm not saying 'do not use starting clamp'. I'm just wondering whether there's really any practical need.

 

[Irvin]

sure, i'm not saying that it is not happening, the drawback that is. And it is happening to some degree on every main, after you clamp and release the tensioner. And every stringer accepts that, there's not much you can do about it, no matter how hard you try to minimize it. So why not accept the drawback on the first main as well? ...

The drawback lessons the pressure on a clamp by reducing reducing tension. You asked why there's more pressure on the first pull. There is no drawback on the pull.

... plus, on that first main, the clamp is behind two grommet turns, so actually drawback is going to be somewhat less on that first main pull...

True if you consider the 180* turn two turns so when you do pull there is even less pressure on the clamp. When the string is pulled actually the pressures on the two sides of the clamp are equalized. Not so with the first pull.

... Plus, the clamp is being pulled toward the inside of the frame, so if you set it close to the inside part of the frame you will minimize the drawback as much as possible (I suppose somewhat 'risking' scratching the inside of the frame)...

Drawback does pull the clamp away from the frame yes. Placing the clamp closer to the frame leaves more tensioned string to create drawback so you will have more drawback but it won't be noticeable. But still a good idea to place the clamp close to the frame as possible.

... On every other main the clamp is pulled away from the inside of the frame, toward the opposite end (a clamp at the throat is pulled toward the hoop, and vice-versa), and there's nothing to minimize that...

What on earth are you talking about? Have you ever strung a racket? Every string is tensioned away from the center of the racket. Drawback pulls toward the center.

... I'm not saying 'do not use starting clamp'. I'm just wondering whether there's really any practical need.

If you don't think there's a need don't use one. Many stringers don't.

 

[jmnk]

The drawback lessons the pressure on a clamp by reducing reducing tension. You asked why there's more pressure on the first pull. There is no drawback on the pull.

What I'm arguing is the concept of 'most force on the first main pull'. yes, on the first main pull the only force is from the tensioner, let's say it is 60pounds. You will never ever have anymore force than 60 during the stringing, right? So the clamp holding the first main is pulled toward one end with 60pounds, with no force on the opposite side (I'm disregarding the lessening effect of the two turns to make the argument simpler). Now later one, let's say on the fourth main, you tension to 60, clamp the string and release the tensioner. At that moment the clamp is being pulled by the tensioned string toward the inside of the grame, with a force of 60pounds. And there's absolutely no force toward the other end as the string is just hanging there. So whether it is a first main, or any other main afterward, the clamp is being pulled toward one end with the force equal to whatever the tension is. So I'm not understanding that notion of 'most force on the first pull'. Ok, maybe at the exact pulling moment, but in general the clamp is being subjected to the same forces whether it is first main or not.

True if you consider the 180* turn two turns so when you do pull there is even less pressure on the clamp. When the string is pulled actually the pressures on the two sides of the clamp are equalized. Not so with the first pull.

sure, until you clamp and release the tensioner. after releasing the tensioner the clamp is being pulled to one side only, with no equalizing force in the other direction.

Drawback does pull the clamp away from the frame yes. Placing the clamp closer to the frame leaves more tensioned string to create drawback so you will have more drawback but it won't be noticeable. But still a good idea to place the clamp close to the frame as possible.

What on earth are you talking about? Have you ever strung a racket? Every string is tensioned away from the center of the racket. Drawback pulls toward the center.

I think you misunderstood. Or maybe I was not clear. Once you tension, clamp, and --release the tensioner--, the clamp is being pulled toward the center of the racket. With the force equal to the tensioning force. With no equalizing force in the opposite direction.

and yes, I have strung few rackets.

If you don't think there's a need don't use one. Many stringers don't.

this is just philosophical discussion on the merits and reasoning on why some do use starting clamp. I just find the reasoning lacking any merit, at least from physics sense.

 

[Irvin]

jmnk if you ever pull tension against a string held only in a machine clamp fell the string after the clamp is released. If it ever feels rough and marred remember this conversation. If it never does feel rough that is a good thing as the string never slipped. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

 

[jmnk]

jmnk if you ever pull tension against a string held only in a machine clamp fell the string after the clamp is released. If it ever feels rough and marred remember this conversation. If it never does feel rough that is a good thing as the string never slipped. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

ok, great. But please explain --why-- would I ever feel the first main 'rough and marred', but I would not damage the string the same way on subsequent mains. It is either never 'marred' or always 'marred'. there's no extra force on the first pull, there's always at most tensioning force, and it acts --on every single main once it is clamped and tensioner is released--.

 

[Muppet]

I think you misunderstood. Or maybe I was not clear. Once you tension, clamp, and --release the tensioner--, the clamp is being pulled toward the center of the racket. With the force equal to the tensioning force. With no equalizing force in the opposite direction.

I'll see if I can help here. The force of the tensioned string is only going to equal the force from the tensioner until the tensioner is released. Then, the force from the tensioned string on the clamp, is immediately decreased and can be seen in drawback on the clamp. This is why the force from the tensioner, without an opposing force on the clamp, is greater than with an opposing force. By saying that it's greater, we aren't saying that other forces are non-existent. We are only saying that they are less.

Am I getting this right Irvin, and is it clear?

 

[Dags]

This could end up being a horrible analogy, but I'm going to start typing and see how it comes out...

Let's say Man A is standing in a room with both arms outstretched. Man B comes along, grabs A's right arm, and pulls. Chances are that Man A will move.

Now we'll reset... this time, Man C takes Man A's left arm and holds it firmly. Man B now grabs A's right arm and pulls again. It should be much harder for him to move Man A because he has to negate the force from Man C (note that Man C is not pulling in the other direction, just holding firmly).


When stringing, the first pull has no tension on the other side of the clamp, so the only thing stopping the string from slipping is the grip of the clamp itself. For subsequent pulls there is tension on the other side of the clamp; this helps negate some of the force from the tension head, and hence reduces the chances of slippage.

 

[Irvin]

I don't think jmnk cares he just wants to argue.

 

[jim e]

this is just philosophical discussion on the merits and reasoning on why some do use starting clamp. I just find the reasoning lacking any merit, at least from physics sense.

DON'T BUY ONE THEN!

For those that want information why uses of a starting clamp then:

1.I have used it for flattening out the tip end of the string, which made cutting the tip at an angle easier, to help slide the string through a blocked hole.

2.Also used to bridge a scrap piece of string, to extend the length of string to reach tension head when string was a little short.(This saved my behind a # of times, I could have tied a string, but that is time consuming, and not reliable!)I keep a separate starting clamp with a scrap string on it when this situation happens, I am all set to bridge the string.

3.Also, there are some racquets where the cross tie off to start is listed to tie on a cross string,one example,Babolat PStorm, the cross tieoff is on the 3rd cross (not on a main). You need a starting clamp so you can weave the first several crosses , then tieoff at the 11 H.as listed. You can enlargen a grommet if you want to as long as you do this before you start, but is not what manuf. stringing pattern lists

4.I also use a starting clamp to start my crosses, so all knots are the same,and you would not be tying off on a main string and pulling tension against it, and when using thin gut or other 'fragile' multifilament strings, and especially at higher tensions, it is not uncommon to snap that first cross string right at the knot or at the two sharp turns the string makes, With using a starting clamp, you do not pull tension against these turns.

5. Some ATW patterns require the use of a starting clamp, (Or use of flying clamp, to use like a starting clamp), to hold the tension of the string on outside of the frame, until you free up a machine clamp

6. Some stringers like to use it to cinch up a knot as well, personally I just use my fingers.

7. Use a starting clamp to back up the machines clamp when starting the main strings.( Can be used as back up, or used with the Yusuki method of starting mains ) .

They are cheap! I have 3 of them. They are cheap. Yes you can do without, but like anything else when you have one its nice to have. I would not want to string without one any more. It costs more for a set of VS gut than a starting clamp.

 

[Power Player]

I started following Jim_e's advice when I began stringing and he has never said one thing that was wrong in my experience.

Just buy a starting clamp, start the mains like he describes, and enjoy your racquets on the court.

 

[jmnk]

I'll see if I can help here. The force of the tensioned string is only going to equal the force from the tensioner until the tensioner is released. Then, the force from the tensioned string on the clamp, is immediately decreased and can be seen in drawback on the clamp. This is why the force from the tensioner, without an opposing force on the clamp, is greater than with an opposing force. By saying that it's greater, we aren't saying that other forces are non-existent. We are only saying that they are less.

Am I getting this right Irvin, and is it clear?

I'm not sure what you are saying. Are you referring to creep phenomena?

 

[jmnk]

DON'T BUY ONE THEN!

For those that want information why uses of a starting clamp then:

1.I have used it for flattening out the tip end of the string, which made cutting the tip at an angle easier, to help slide the string through a blocked hole.

2.Also used to bridge a scrap piece of string, to extend the length of string to reach tension head when string was a little short.(This saved my behind a # of times, I could have tied a string, but that is time consuming, and not reliable!)I keep a separate starting clamp with a scrap string on it when this situation happens, I am all set to bridge the string.

3.Also, there are some racquets where the cross tie off to start is listed to tie on a cross string,one example,Babolat PStorm, the cross tieoff is on the 3rd cross (not on a main). You need a starting clamp so you can weave the first several crosses , then tieoff at the 11 H.as listed. You can enlargen a grommet if you want to as long as you do this before you start, but is not what manuf. stringing pattern lists

4.I also use a starting clamp to start my crosses, so all knots are the same,and you would not be tying off on a main string and pulling tension against it, and when using thin gut or other 'fragile' multifilament strings, and especially at higher tensions, it is not uncommon to snap that first cross string right at the knot or at the two sharp turns the string makes, With using a starting clamp, you do not pull tension against these turns.

5. Some ATW patterns require the use of a starting clamp, (Or use of flying clamp, to use like a starting clamp), to hold the tension of the string on outside of the frame, until you free up a machine clamp

6. Some stringers like to use it to cinch up a knot as well, personally I just use my fingers.

7. Use a starting clamp to back up the machines clamp when starting the main strings.( Can be used as back up, or used with the Yusuki method of starting mains ) .

They are cheap! I have 3 of them. They are cheap. Yes you can do without, but like anything else when you have one its nice to have. I would not want to string without one any more. It costs more for a set of VS gut than a starting clamp.

But I already have two starting clamps. The starting clamps are useful. For the exact reasons you have mentioned. Except the 7th point - there's absolutely no explanation for why starting clamp used in that manner is helpful/needed in any way. that is the only point I'm arguing.

 

[Power Player]

Wow, they explained it multiple times..lol.

 

[jmnk]

This could end up being a horrible analogy, but I'm going to start typing and see how it comes out...

Let's say Man A is standing in a room with both arms outstretched. Man B comes along, grabs A's right arm, and pulls. Chances are that Man A will move.

Now we'll reset... this time, Man C takes Man A's left arm and holds it firmly. Man B now grabs A's right arm and pulls again. It should be much harder for him to move Man A because he has to negate the force from Man C (note that Man C is not pulling in the other direction, just holding firmly).


When stringing, the first pull has no tension on the other side of the clamp, so the only thing stopping the string from slipping is the grip of the clamp itself. For subsequent pulls there is tension on the other side of the clamp; this helps negate some of the force from the tension head, and hence reduces the chances of slippage.

That is not --that-- terrible of analogy. Except the 'note that Man C is not pulling in the other direction, just holding firmly' part. from physics perspective what is happening is that one man is pulling in one direction, and the other is pulling in the opposite direction, since the forces are equal, the man in the middle does not move. the point is that 'holding firmly' and 'pulling' is exactly the same from physics standpoint.

Anyway, everyone seems to be focusing on the exact moment when the first main is pulled. I completely agree that at that point there's only one force from one direction pulling the fixed clamp. So the propagated idea says that one should/could use starting clamp to prevent the string from slipping out of that fixed clamp. Which implies that the starting clamp cannot, on its own, hold the string being tensioned.

my point is that on let's say 3rd main, once you clamp the string and --release the tensioner-- that clamp is being pulled in one direction as well. Again, AFTER you release the tensioner. The string acts as a tensioned spring at that moment. Since it was tensioned at 60p it is now pulling the fixed clamp with 60p force toward the center of the frame. yet no one ever suggests that the fixed clamp is not able to hold that string in place. apparently the string is not slipping now, is it? the force that is now no less that one that first main - so how come now the clamp can hold the string without a problem?

 

[jmnk]

Wow, they explained it multiple times..lol.

no, they did not.

 

[struggle]

Please, let this thread die.

This horse doesn't wanna drink.

 

[jim e]

But I already have two starting clamps. The starting clamps are useful. For the exact reasons you have mentioned. Except the 7th point - there's absolutely no explanation for why starting clamp used in that manner is helpful/needed in any way. that is the only point I'm arguing.

Now you say that the starting clamps are useful after posting.....

I'm not saying 'do not use starting clamp'. I'm just wondering whether there's really any practical need.

You sort of contradicted yourself! Irvin is correct! You seem to just want to argue even if you are wrong.Otherwise how do you explain the 2 comments you made quoted above, or do I really want to know?

Also keep in mind with the Yusuki method the anchor clamp has some tension inside the clamp, just like clamping any other main once you start the stringing process, which helps with slipping strings,as if you clamp a limp string, the string inside the clamp has no tension inside and there is added chance of string slipping, or if you overtighten that 1st clamp you can crush it. Also allows to easily clamp that anchor clamp with that main string straight in the clamp and not waving or angled in the clamp and this method also keeps the machines clamp in upright position as well for the 1st main.

You may feel better not backing up your machines clamp or use Yusuki, its your choice, but reasons have been offered . Many stringers have damaged strings by the time the 1st main has been installed, and backing up that 1st pull does make a difference by not having a string slip or crushed by too tight of clamp (some types of thin strings or delicate ones / and racquet combos and slight damage to string it will come back to you).. Possibly you will understand this after a few hundred racquets strung and seeing results. Goodluck in your experiences!

 

[Irvin]

I did a little experiment just to see what would happen. I used Gosen OG Micro 17 and ran in the two center mains. I used a racket where the mains started in the throat (Prince Jr. Graphite II OS.) I clamped 1LM with a starting clamp outside the frame at the head and pulled tension on 1RM with a Wise constant pull tensioner set @ 60#. I measured 1LM and the tension was 52 lbs. This tension loss is due to the 180* turn (surface friction between frame & string) in the throat of the racket I assumed. I clamped 1LM with a machine clamp and read 1RM's tension. I use a Gamma adapter so the string is being pulled at string bed level with very little friction on the center mains and the tension was really really close to 60#. I released tension and the clamp on 1LM had about 3 mm of drawback (best guess not actually measured.) The tension on 1LM dropped to 36#. I pulled tension again on 1RM and all drawback was recovered (clamp pulled back to the 12 o'clock post) and the tension on 1LM was then a hair over 50#. I would assume this is due to the relaxing of the string itself.

Therefore, pulling on a machine clamp around a grommet turn yielded about 87% reference tension. Holding tension, after drawback and no tension applied , resulted in 60% reference tension. So I can only assume pulling tension results in greater tension than holding tension.

OMG, is it that bad? You guys really think that I have no point in this argument at all? (and I will not be offended by an honest answer.....)

I think so. I think you just want to argue with everyone for the sake of arguing.

 

[jmnk]

Now you say that the starting clamps are useful after posting.....


You sort of contradicted yourself! Irvin is correct! You seem to just want to argue even if you are wrong.Otherwise how do you explain the 2 comments you made quoted above, or do I really want to know?

Also keep in mind with the Yusuki method the anchor clamp has some tension inside the clamp, just like clamping any other main once you start the stringing process, which helps with slipping strings,as if you clamp a limp string, the string inside the clamp has no tension inside and there is added chance of string slipping, or if you overtighten that 1st clamp you can crush it. Also allows to easily clamp that anchor clamp with that main string straight in the clamp and not waving or angled in the clamp and this method also keeps the machines clamp in upright position as well for the 1st main.

You may feel better not backing up your machines clamp or use Yusuki, its your choice, but reasons have been offered . Many stringers have damaged strings by the time the 1st main has been installed, and backing up that 1st pull does make a difference by not having a string slip or crushed by too tight of clamp (some types of thin strings / and racquet combos and slight damage to string it will come back to you).. Possibly you will understand this after a few hundred racquets strung and seeing results. Goodluck in your experiences!

OK, yes, you got me. When you take the sentence out of the context of entire post.
how about that: "I'm not saying 'do not use starting clamp'. I'm just wondering whether there's really any practical need for a starting clamp when starting stringing with Yusuki method".
Hopefully that does not contradict anything I have said.

 

[struggle]

OK, yes, you got me. When you take the sentence out of the context of entire post.
how about that: "I'm not saying 'do not use starting clamp'. I'm just wondering whether there's really any practical need for a starting clamp when starting stringing with Yusuki method".
Hopefully that does not contradict anything I have said.

this has been explained. you either choose not to read that part, not to understand it, or just disregard it as nonsense.

 

[jim e]

OK, yes, you got me. When you take the sentence out of the context of entire post.
how about that: "I'm not saying 'do not use starting clamp'. I'm just wondering whether there's really any practical need for a starting clamp when starting stringing with Yusuki method".
Hopefully that does not contradict anything I have said.

I did not take anything out of context I only quoted you on exactly what you said.

When you take into consideration that you cannot string Yusuki method without a starting clamp the bold part in above quote does not make sense, but then again.....

Also if you read all of my post #35 I explained why Yusuki method has value, but you simply ignore and go on.

I will repost it again below so you can see this and comment on being not practical:

Also keep in mind with the Yusuki method the anchor clamp has some tension inside the clamp, just like clamping any other main once you start the stringing process, which helps with slipping strings,as if you clamp a limp string, the string inside the clamp has no tension inside and there is added chance of string slipping, or if you overtighten that 1st clamp you can crush it. Also allows to easily clamp that anchor clamp with that main string straight in the clamp and not waving or angled in the clamp and this method also keeps the machines clamp in upright position as well for the 1st main.

You may feel better not backing up your machines clamp or use Yusuki, its your choice, but reasons have been offered . Many stringers have damaged strings by the time the 1st main has been installed, and backing up that 1st pull does make a difference by not having a string slip or crushed by too tight of clamp (some types of thin strings, or delicate ones / and racquet combos and slight damage to string it will come back to you).. Possibly you will understand this after a few hundred racquets strung and seeing results. Goodluck in your experiences!

 

[jmnk]

I did a little experiment just to see what would happen. I used Gosen OG Micro 17 and ran in the two center mains. I used a racket where the mains started in the throat (Prince Jr. Graphite II OS.) I clamped 1LM with a starting clamp outside the frame at the head and pulled tension on 1RM with a Wise constant pull tensioner set @ 60#. I measured 1LM and the tension was 52 lbs. This tension loss is due to the 180* turn (surface friction between frame & string) in the throat of the racket I assumed. I clamped 1LM with a machine clamp and read 1RM's tension. I use a Gamma adapter so the string is being pulled at string bed level with very little friction on the center mains and the tension was really really close to 60#. I released tension and the clamp on 1LM had about 3 mm of drawback (best guess not actually measured.) The tension on 1LM dropped to 36#. I pulled tension again on 1RM and all drawback was recovered (clamp pulled back to the 12 o'clock post) and the tension on 1LM was then a hair over 50#. I would assume this is due to the relaxing of the string itself.

Therefore, pulling on a machine clamp around a grommet turn yielded about 87% reference tension. Holding tension, after drawback and no tension applied , resulted in 60% reference tension. So I can only assume pulling tension results in greater tension than holding tension.

this is a great experiment. thanks for doing that. I need to measure myself as well.
If these numbers are indeed pretty common (and I have no reasons to think otherwise) than indeed the starting clamp on the first pull is helpful. Although I must say that I would not expect such a huge tension drop (from 60 to 36) when you release the tensioner. I was expecting it to be in the ~10pounds range (from 60 to about 50) which would make it on par with the tension you saw on 1LM.

I think so. I think you just want to argue with everyone for the sake of arguing.

well, not quite. We got a valuable measurements of of it, didn't we?

 

[Muppet]

I'm really liking the 'Pull It Again' method. I get some nice pocketing without it feeling wild. That was my problem with the Yusuki method. Sometimes the pocketing felt too loose and a couple of times I felt that a center main felt slack. Pull It Again gives center mains that are firm enough but still allow some pocketing. It feels right to me. Again, here's the procedure, without the double pull this time:

- Set starting clamp on LM1 outside of hoop
- Pull tension on RM1 on same end of hoop as starting clamp
- Secure with fixed clamp
- Pull tension on LM1
- Move starting clamp against frame to take up slack
- Pull tension on RM1 again
- Move fixed clamp to take up slack
- String RM2 and RM3
- Pull tension on LM1 again and remove starting clamp, set fixed clamp
- Continue left, then right, etc.

I like this method, but Yusuki has a lot more credentials than I do. Give it a try if you like.

 

[Muppet]

Ad Nauseum

I hope people don't mind, but I have a development to report on, combining Yusuki method with the above Pull it Again method.

I have a reel of Synthetic Power string from Pro's Pro that slips in the clamps every time I try to start my mains without doing Yusuki. So I just combined the two starting methods so that I can have a secure pocket on the ball and also clamps that don't slip:

- Pull LM1 and RM1 together in the tensioner
- Clamp LM1 with fixed clamp at opposite end from tensioner
- Place starting clamp on LM1 outside of hoop at the same end as tensioner
- Release tension
- Pull tension on RM1 and set fixed clamp
- Pull tension on LM1 again
- Release fixed clamp and starting clamp on LM1 to allow string to move
- Adjust tensioner for pull on LM1
- Re-clamp LM1 with fixed and starting clamps
- Pull tension on RM1 again
- Release fixed clamp
- Adjust tensioner for pull on RM1, then re-clamp
- Tension RM2 and RM3
- Pull tension on LM1 again, removing starting clamp
- Release fixed clamp and adjust tensioner for pull on LM1
- Move fixed clamp along the length of LM1 and set clamp
- Continue left, then right, etc.

 

[Power Player]

What is a secure pocket? I have no idea what you mean by this..lol. A few things I don't get :

Why are you putting the starting clamp outside the frame instead of just backing up the fixed clamp?

Why are you pulling tension on LM1 right after you do RM1, instead of doing 3 right side mains, clamping and then going back to LM1, tensioning and catching up?

 

[Muppet]

By a secure pocket, I mean the feeling of strings holding the ball firmly so you can sense the string to ball contact, without any feeling of slack or loose strings. The Pull It Again method doubles back and tensions the center mains a second time, so that more of the slack is pulled out of the strings before I move on to tension the outer strings.

When I learned Yusuki method, I learned to put the starting clamp in the throat. If you are setting initial tension in the string, I guess it would work just as well to put the starting clamp behind the fixed clamp.

By doubling back after RM1 and pulling on LM1 again, before moving forward with the right side mains, I am just completing the process of pulling slack out of the two center mains before I continue to the right. After I do continue to the right, I go back to LM1 once again and continue to the left.

It's just Yusuki method with extra effort to pull more slack out of the two center mains. I have played with racquets that I've strung straight Yusuki method. The multis and synthetic guts seemed to have too much give or were too hot in the sweet spot. And my racquets are low powered frames. But for polyester, straight Yusuki may be the best choice. It may just depend on how much control you want your setup to have and what kind of strings you're using.

 

[Irvin]

Seems like a lot of steps to start your mains. Why not clamp 1LM outside with starting clamp and pull tension on 1RM with your hand and clamp 1LM with machine clamp. Pull normal tension on 1RM and go about stringing normally.

 

[Power Player]

It just sounds like you are doing something wrong when you are telling me that the Yusuki method, which is used for pro players all the time is not working for you.

I agree with Irvin, it seems like a lot of steps.

 

[Muppet]

Seems like a lot of steps to start your mains. Why not clamp 1LM outside with starting clamp and pull tension on 1RM with your hand and clamp 1LM with machine clamp. Pull normal tension on 1RM and go about stringing normally.

That's a nice shortcut for the Yusuki method. Thank you. I'll do that.

 

[Muppet]

It just sounds like you are doing something wrong when you are telling me that the Yusuki method, which is used for pro players all the time is not working for you.

I agree with Irvin, it seems like a lot of steps.

Considering that I am not a pro player, setting my equipment up differently than they do makes sense. I've tried the different methods and in hindsight, nylon based strings had too loosey-goosey of a sweet spot for me. And I wasn't even looking for trouble then. I'm still getting a good pocket, it's just not as wild as what I was getting with the Yusuki method. Maybe the pros like a little more deflection in the pocket than I do.

 

[struggle]

hey, someone has to re-invent the wheel (try to do so anyhow).

really, nothing wrong with fresh thinking, but you do have to draw the line at times.

 

[Muppet]

I'm not saying that everyone should start their mains the way that I do. People can do what they like. I'm just adding another option to how mains might be started, depending upon what string material you're using and what kind of feel you like your stringbed to have. You can even vary which method you use against what tensions you're using, for more options.

And I'm thinking that for most poly mains and poly full beds Yusuki probably makes the most sense, depending on your tastes. Nylon based strings are a different story, and I strongly prefer going with the Pull It Again method for those.

For people who have been following my whole thread so far, thank you for your interest.

 

[Power Player]

So this is named pull it again, or are you attempting to market this concept as your own?

And I use a hybrid string bed, not full poly. Yusuki method works fine for it.

 

[Muppet]

I called it "Pull It Again" so that I could refer to it easily. If it hasn't been done before, I wouldn't mind being given credit for discovering the method. I'd be surprised if there weren't already people stringing this way. But then, people don't usually think past what's on the menu.

'Marketing' sounds like such a sketchy term.