Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Pet, Oct 5, 2010.
So he's advocating that transferring your weight AWAY from your target is going to let you hit the balls >768 mph (speed of sound). It all makes sense now..... :roll:
oh my, poor kid is being taught incorrectly. The angular momentum doesn't come from body weight away from ball, this will lead to unsteadiness. It comes from proper pivoting, more active core, open hips and loose wrist.
Modern tennis is great, especially with a racquet with a modern sweetspot.
The kid is off balance and not ready for the next shot, and I think my ear drum popped when he swung and broke the sound barrier.
This is definitely a product of over-analyzing...add in a few words such as "physics" and "momentum" just to make it sound as if it's a legit technique all on its own.
Many players already "pull the racquet backward" without even realizing it; it really depends on the situation.
For example, I am a righty. If a shot is hit out wide to my forehand, I will move right to get to it. Once I get to the ball, I will most likely have to hit it with an open-stance since I will not have time to close my stance AND an open-stance will allow me to more easily recover my court position after I hit the ball. An open-stance from this position would mean that I am almost always forced to pull my racquet backward as I swing through.
In fact, any players who use an open-stance will be pulling their racquets backward most of the time. This isn't anything new.
I guess this video DOES help in explaining the concept to beginners, since it is always difficult to explain the "swing-through" process to beginners. If you simply tell them to pull their racquet back after they make contact with the ball, then it will force them to follow through.
Yes, poor kid.
Having to work with a former touring pro, former Spanish National Coach, and the most notable Coach Internationally.
Oh yes, Wegner,,,,, The guy who claims the entire racquet is a sweet spot. I'm surprised he is not using his ironing board invention.
Didn't this guy's name used to be Milos and didn't Jerry Seinfeld destroy him in singles?
this is terrible teaching.
the key to maintain the maximum angular momentum is with a steady axis of rotation, so with the hitting arm going forward, some other part(s) of the body has to go backward as a counter weight, but the axis itself should be steady.
the video above should explain this.
I know you love this "modern" stuff, but surely you know this video is crap. The pros don't shift their weight backwards at all when they can help it.
hahah "He is not even a real man!"
No, actually I know these are 2 of the best instructors we have available. Yes, the pros do shift their wt like this student, but in the vid it is more emphasized to make a point. It is a big part of how the pros have the amazing court coverage, even with the game so fast today, because each shot can tk you back towards the center of the court while maintaining a stable hitting platform. Works amazing for those who become adept.
That's just flat out not true. Watch any video of a pro, their weight goes FOREWARD. Occasionally their weight will go backwards, but that's when they're playing defense and need a little more time. They of course have torso rotation, but that's also going towards the ball.
^^Wegner and his disciples live in Bizarro world.
I think it was another invention which he endorsed which looked like it.
I thought ironing board was your invention, because with two ironing boards back to back, two players can practise top spin against each other at the same time.
I still haven't found the racquet with the modern sweetspot, which extends almost to the frame.
LOL at the last claim. Ask tennis insiders to name top coaches, they will name Bolls, Lansdorp, Higueras, Roche, Lundgren and others, not him.
Ah yes,,,,, I remember now. That invention I invented was a good idea. I wonder why it never took off?
Amazing the hate and discontent that some feel the need to express and I guess that is fine.
But for those who don't already have it figured out, I will offer to save some time for those still learning by highly recommending MTM and Oscar's work.
Even the USTA has finally come around and is having him as a featured speaker at events, as they look to incorporate his system.
I believe what people have been expressing is that- his advice to pull back on the ball and the clip of Federer doing so, is when it's a ball that's caught Federer out of position deep, not necessarily his stroke--Oscar is trying to teach it as an overall stroke- which is odd.
Well, this does get a little silly with Oscar even though some of us might do things a little differently. I think, maybe for good reason, he's become a lightning rod for those wanting to vent. I happen to appreciate 5263's offerings in these boards but realize he does follow a couple of MTM folk who didn't express themselves or "perhaps" the organization very well - in any event they didn't come off too well at times. IMO, as a USTPA instructor, 5263 knows his stuff.
If, for instance, your thinking the kid in the video is all wrong, or being taught/given poor instruction, than you might want to evaluate what you really know. Do I agree with the entire post, maybe not but its more correct than not and the parts I might disagree with are more style issues/player preferences than stroke mechanics which is what I do.
Are these stokes for everyone, no but, IMO they are appropriate for the player involved.
I appreciate 5263 as well. I just happen to disagree with this video and him on this topic.
The video is saying that players pull their weight back away from the shot to get power. Then they show a video of Federer with his racket over his shoulder as if that comes from him leaning his weight back. These things simply aren't true.
Players get their weight forward on 90% of shots and Federer's racket is in that position because he has a nice, long swing. My racket finishes in that position also and I assure you I DO NOT pull my weight backwards.
I wouldn't even mind so much if he presented it as a new idea that could potentially catch on and become the norm. However, he acts like pulling back is an intentional, offensive weapon, and it just isn't.
Papa, I appreciate what you say here and am glad most of us have moved past some of the things said in the past by various posters.
Here is a Fed rally Fh (not on defense) looking much like the young man in the vid as it pertains to balance and wt shift.
One thing to keep in mind about listening to Oscar's instruction is that he is not micro managing the player's stroke details. He tends to be very positive in his comments and introduce only 1 issue at a time to address. So with the student in the vid, it would be a misleading to look at too many details of the stroke not being discussed, like the small hitch in his backswing.
Thanks for keeping an open mind. maybe the pulling is more clear in this vid.
Actually I have nothing against Wegner nor am I "venting," it's simply so clear to me that this particular instruction is wrong.
That link you provided is Fed being pulled wide, it's actually quite common to see him finish with a dynamic recovery step, hence the turning of the body. Notice the Fed lands on the the right foot to recover more quickly, while the exaggerated stroke of the young player is actually landing on his left foot while he's in the middle of the court.
I counter your link, with my link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inQvbT8uEGk&feature=channel
Nadal wants to stay balanced. Instructing to shift your body away from ball is simply wrong and Nadal wouldn't ask you to do it.
Actually 5263 is correct....today's pros (male especially) do pull to the side and back for quicker recovery. The game has changed from the days where pros would come into the ball more. Today's game is much faster and the players have adjusted. The need to stay behind/get back behind the baseline is increasing with each passing year.
And the last post of Nadal....he is warming up and even then towards the middle of the video he is pulling to the side, his weight is not coming forward.
Sure you can find warm up videos of pros not doing it....but in most cases, most rallies, pros are doing what is shown in the initial video. And that would be the correct way to teach juniors these days. Rick Macci does it, Nick Saviano teaches it, Emilio Sanchez teaches it through his hand fed balls where he 'forces' the kids to hit that way.
The girls still are taught to hit through the ball and use their weight forward more....but today's top junior coaches are teaching the boys the way shown in that first post.
I agree with Dreamer on this one.
Many pros will look like they are pulling their racquet back but in fact it's just the momentum from their swing.
As with Nadal, his reverse forehand has to come back behind his head because he is not twisting his torso in this vid:
and therefore his hitting arm has to go somewhere. The advantage of Nadal's reverse forehand is that he does not have to rotate his body as much, therefore cutting down on the timing needed to setup and cutting down the timing needed to recover after the shot.
Nonetheless, it is going backward due to the momentum of the swing, not because he's actually jerking the racquet back after contact.
This is a excellent post, nice to see that there are some
that understand what is going on.Also good to see that
some people dont instantly attack because it is wegner.
Student in the video seems to be falling backwards, while Federer is seen maintaining balance.
Did you also notice that the student in the video
who is pretty scrawny looking is ripping the hell
out of those forehands?
All the advanced juniors at my club hit as fast as that
The argument is not over angular momentum vs forward weight. Nadal certainly often relies on angular momentum when pressed for time. It is about Wegner's instruction that promotes breaking a steady axis of rotation by body weight backwards and to the sides for power, off a normal ball!
Exactly. He took a corner case and passed it off as a revolutionary teaching technique which breaks the mold. Like his racquet take back example which makes us imagine a strawman who runs around the court with his racquet fully back and looking stupid.
Interesting. I'm not an instructor or anything, but that kid's FH didn't like anything you'd see from the pros. It looked like he was almost yanking the ball
This Wegner fellow may or may not be a good instructor, but his explanations of things are bizarre. Speed of sound? Yikes.
Didn't like the way his right foot moved, either.
Yeah. He also says that pulling back is using physics to get power. That doesn't make any sense. Day one of physics you learn Force= Mass * Acceleration. By pulling back, you're using less mass. I doubt the acceleration would change significantly.
Therefore, less mass and the same acceleration= less force and thus, less pace.
I trying to figure out how "pulling back" increases power. What physics properties would do that? Once the ball has left the racquet then nothing you do afterward is going to have any effect. So it would have to mean that "pulling back" after the ball is hit somehow causes you to do something different before/during the hitting of the ball.
All too complex for my simple mind
That is easily answered and is a common question. The follow through after impact can have no effect on the ball which left the building a long time ago. Problem with NOT having the follow through is that it causes deceleration at impact. Anything has inertia. By remembering to follow through, you are making sure you don't slow down at impact.
Well, lets take a look at this. Although Federer is an outstanding player, maybe one of the best that ever played the game, but why do we have to compare everything/everbody to him? So are we talking about how Federer hits the ball now or maybe five years ago or do you even see any differences?
Are you saying this kid (in the video) is hitting the ball wrong or is being hurt by the instruction? Guess I just don't get what all the fuss is about because that kid is hitting some great shots even if his technique "might" be a tad different if one of us were teaching him. Even if you don't think so, those strokes are extremely solid. You (and I would include myself) have no idea how this kid hit before so your basically forming an opinion on the entire subject based on this video - seems somewhat odd to me because I would imagine most here would gladly trade their forehand for his.
Look, I'm not trying to defend either MTM or 5263 - he expresses himself very well and seems very knowledgeable as far as I'm concerned. Although I talked with Oscar several years ago (just a friendly chat), I'm not part of his organization or have any ties with anyone involved with his organization. I'm satisfied with my present association with the USPTA but that doesn't mean or imply that I think everyone else is crazy. However, lets understand that these are not black and white issues but constantly evolving like in all sports - the progress/advances unfortunately are not always in a straight line.
Well said....and when you teach young people you need to think ahead and guesstimate where the game is heading. Racquet technology, game speed, which countries training programs will dominate D-1 and pro tennis.
Many top coaches are training boys for the next generation of tennis....even more emphasis on being able to hit a shot and recover to the baseline area as quick as possible. They are training boys to hit like in that video.
Like you said, you do not pick Fed's strokes and decide to train all boys to hit like him.
And the kid in the video has a great stroke.
#1, Roger is not really pulled wide, but is hitting a routine Fh rally shot well within the sidelines. He took 1 step from center, then planted on the outside foot. that is why I picked this vid.
#2, The young man (who I understand played number 1 on his college team as a Freshy) is working on that same type routine Fh shot, with recovery. It is sort of the basic Fh in MTM.
#3, I agree you were not venting, but were just expressing your countering point of view.
I really think you're giving Wegner too much credit. If they were learning what you're advocating, which is turning your feet towards the center of the court during the shot, similar to what Yan Auzoux teaches in the FYB video, no one would be complaining.
He's saying that a player's powerful, routine rally stroke should involved pulling backwards. Look at the shots the kid in the video is hitting. They look ridiculous and are going to inhibit his recovery NOT aid it.
I think you are entitled to your opinion, but I feel my experience on this stacks up pretty well to make these type judgements. IMO there are 2 groups that will really appreciate his instruction; those who are learning the game, and those who understand it very well. Papa, tlm, and tennis coachFLA are all guys who have proven time and again a deeper understanding of how the strokes work and are taught. They have the ability to recognize the quality of many of the MTM core issues. We don't always agree on every detail, but can have good respectful discussions on different approaches to things.
Former world number 18, 5 time US open semi-finalist, Coached 8 world number one players and current Davis cup coach for Spain, Australia, and the Democratic Republic of the Congo.
Really though, it's not a case of me vs. Wegner, it's a question of the vast majority of experts and coaches vs. Wegner. I guarantee if you asked Stefanki, Cahill, Anacone, or even current players like Federer, they would straight up tell you that, ideally, your weight should be going forward into the shot.
You've got to remember, this guy is selling a product. By offering things that seem "secret" and new he's going to sell more of that product.
Excellent points as well.
I thought better of that post and decided to try to make a better reply by using edit.
But of course it comes down to your word against Oscar's when you put it as you have. I try not to harp on his credentials, but am at a loss at how someone like yourself will make the statements you have against a former touring pro and National coach at a time when they were kicking off the Spanish armada. You have the right to disagree of course, but even though I played college football, how would I look to come out cutting down Sabin or the Bear?
I had some doubts about several parts of his system in the early going, as I thought I really knew volleys well and thought the waiting things sounded a little crazy. Fortunately I did know enough to recognize the wisdom in his TS strokes. Over time with better understanding, I now see how right he was on those other areas as well.
By the way, I have spoken to more than one of those you mention, among many, many more like PMac, Nick, Macci and Everett. By far most of them agree that your weight does not actually move forward into most rally shots.
I think pulling the racquet back with that much force, and hitting off the right leg, naturally sends one sideways and backwards, not forwards. Oscar seems to be asking the student to "pull back" - meaning pull the racquet back - not to step back. The weight seems to be shifting mostly sideways, as it should for recovery, and only slightly backwards, right? Looks good to me!
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