Any advice on BCAAs and Arginine?

[joe sch]

Any usage advise or warning ?

Some of the clinical reports read like these supplements would not help most athletes.

What are BCAAs (Branched-Chain Amino Acids)?

* They are amino acids present largely in myoproteins.
* They are known to increase the amount of proteins in the body.
* They are used as an energy source during exercise.
* They consist of 3 amino acids, valine, leucine, and isoleucine.

What is Arginine?

* It plays an important role in expanding blood vessels to facilitate the blood flow.
(Nitric oxide, which is required to expand blood vessels, is made from arginine.)
* It is an amino acid that is useful in eliminating excessive ammonia from the body.
*

It is reported to enhance immunological function.

 

[El Diablo]

Forget the arginine....the blood vessels that matter are expanded by increased cardiac output, which occurs during exercise. Arginine is of no demonstrable value for athletic performance.
All proteins are cleaved in the GI tract to amino acids which are then reassembled to form new protein as needed. Short chain, long chain, no chain, doesn't much matter. The typical American diet contains more than enough protein, so it is not the limiting factor to muscle formation and, unless you are fully depleted of glycogen, won't contribute to energy.
And EVERYTHING seems to have been reported somewhere to enhance immune function....this became the catchphrase of the supplement business when people began to wonder if cancer might relate to some impairment of immune function. I've not seen any good data to support this claim.

 

[TnTBigman]

Why concern yourself only with BCAA and Agrinine? Your body needs specific amounts, and any excess in one will cause an imbalance in the others. If you workout and play regurarly, 1-2 serving of a GOOD Whey Protein Isolate supplement a day will cover all your amino acids needs.

 

[joe sch]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

A shop where I get my Cytomax was selling those "performance additives" so I looked into it and it appears they are not beneficial for most athletes. Sounds like there are much better and cheaper ways, like Whey Protein as TnTBigman suggests.

 

[El Diablo]

Or....are you sitting down?....food!!! More than enough protein in the typical diet, too much protein can lead to kidney problems.

 

[joe sch]

Or....are you sitting down?....food!!! More than enough protein in the typical diet, too much protein can lead to kidney problems.

Ok, I will keep that in mind ...
Im basically a carb guy but my wife cooks too much beef

 

[bee]

Two good books: The Okinawa Diet Plan and Superfoods.

I am really disgusted these days with all the vitamin and supplement hucksters out there puffing up claims of this and that.

I agree with that other guy. Good healthy food provides what you need and some of the more recent research on plant based diets and some specific things (like pomegranate juice, blueberries, curry, and fish...as well as fruits and vegetables in generaly) is quite impressive.

Good health to you, my friend!

 

[TnTBigman]

I used to be all into Sports Supplements like BCAA, Creatine, HMB, etc. After a while, you just realised that its all hype. If it sound too good to be true, then it is. An exception for creatine, casue it did work, but its positive effects stopped after usage stopped.
As long as you eat a balanced diet according to your activity level, and body weight composition (or your optimum body weight composition) you'll be just fine. If you strength train, then a good Whey Protein ISOLATE powder will supplement that extra protein your body needs (an extra 20g - 38g per day). EAS Precision Protein as well as AST VP2 Whey Protein Isolate are two high quality whey protein products. Or if you want no preservatives, Solgar has a pure whey protein isolate powder that tastes just as great.
L-Glutamine in its free form is also a good amino acid to take by itself casue not only your muscles use it up, but also your imune system. And in large amounts.
Bee has some excellent points about anti-oxidants. They are essential for recovery and overall good health. I've read great things about pomegranate juice from repuable sources.

 

[jackson vile]

The BCAAs will increase energy, so I would recomend them before a game, really though you can get the same effect from a simple protine isolate check proteinfactory.com .

How ever minerals that raise pH and alkalinity would be of much more benefit ie posstasium, calcium, mangnesium.


You could try citrulline malate, tri-creatine malate would be good as long as you do not take a recomended, if you take as recomended you will hold water slowing you down and possibly increasing blood pressure

 

[ollinger]

Jackson
can you offer any support for your point? My understanding of physiology is that amino acids are last in the body's hierarchy of energy source choices, after carbs and lipids, so you'd have to be pretty emaciated before amino acids were used as an energy source.
________
party Cam

 

[jackson vile]

No, that is from stored energy not energy that is available for imediate use, ie what your stomache is digesting now and in the blood stream.


Whey isolate is a very simple protein that is called fast protein, it is partially digested already and your body is able to use it quickly.

Whey has a very large amount of BCAAS


see here and read, very informative http://www.amino-vital.com/inactiontips.asp?tips=mikeross&bhcd2=1138756081



A role for branched-chain amino acids in reducing central fatigue.

Saturday, January 21, 2006

Subject and Source: Nutrition, J NUTR - 3.25, Journal
Related Articles

A role for branched-chain amino acids in reducing central fatigue.

J Nutr. 2006 Feb;136(2):544S-7S

Authors: Blomstrand E

Several factors have been identified to cause peripheral fatigue during exercise, whereas the mechanisms behind central fatigue are less well known. Changes in the brain 5-hydroxytryptamine (5-HT) level is one factor that has been suggested to cause fatigue. The rate-limiting step in the synthesis of 5-HT is the transport of tryptophan across the blood-brain barrier. This transport is influenced by the fraction of tryptophan available for transport into the brain and the concentration of the other large neutral amino acids, including the BCAAs (leucine, isoleucine, and valine), which are transported via the same carrier system. Studies in human subjects have shown that the plasma ratio of free tryptophan (unbound to albumin)/BCAAs increases and that tryptophan is taken up by the brain during endurance exercise, suggesting that this may increase the synthesis of 5-HT in the brain. Ingestion of BCAAs increases their concentration in plasma. This may reduce the uptake of tryptophan by the brain and also 5-HT synthesis and thereby delay fatigue. Accordingly, when BCAAs were supplied to human subjects during a standardized cycle ergometer exercise their ratings of perceived exertion and mental fatigue were reduced, and, during a competitive 30-km cross-country race, their performance on different cognitive tests was improved after the race. In some situations the intake of BCAAs also improves physical performance. The results also suggest that ingestion of carbohydrates during exercise delays a possible effect of BCAAs on fatigue since the brain's uptake of tryptophan is reduced.

PMID: 16424144 [PubMed - in process]


http://www.dailybiomed.com/?cat=115

The last one is a pubmed study if you like, PubMed is peer reviewed by the best doctors in the world

 

[ollinger]

As you doubtless know, there's plenty in biological and medical literature that makes little sense; this article demonstrates what may be an epiphenomenon without a HYPOTHESIS, so its value is not manifest. Wurtman of M.I.T. has elegantly demonstrated that tryptophan availability can affect the amount of 5HT in the brain but DOES NOT affect the firing rates of those neurons containing 5HT. So what is the MECHANISM by which amino acid chains might prevent fatigue. The literature is littered with correlations that aren't supported by a useful hypothesis.
Similarly, cognitive performance after an exercise task is hardly a measure of energy. 5HT activity in the brainstem Raphe nuclei is crucial in sleep-wakefulness differentiation but it's anything but clear that this would have an impact on a tennis player's performance unless he'd been up all night.
Finally, a review of this subject in "Ultrafit" Sept 2001 points out that Blomstrand's finding of less fatigue after taking BCAAs has not been replicated in a number of other studies
________
HOW TO ROLL A JOINT

 

[jackson vile]

There is the PubMed do you know what PumMed is? It is peer reviewed by the leading and most experienced doctors in the world.


You have no leg to stand on, bcaas are cheap so cheap that these people can try it for themselves and see if they like it end of story, I back up my information with studies you have nothing.

How arogant and ignorant

 

[PowerServe]

no, jack-nut, what is pum med? before you fire off and criticize someone by calling them ignorant, learn how to spell. 'arogant' that must be an idaho term..

you have studies, but apparently your comprehension skills are damn near zero. shut your mouth with your hillbilly theories and send me some potatoes.

 

[LostMyMojo]

PowerServe, maybe you should look at the content of the posts before insulting the person on their spelling? If you care so much about spelling and grammar, learn to capitalize.

As others have said, arginine will not largely help. There are also better ways than BCAAs like Whey protein, also suggested, with less risk of an imbalance and such. Also, jackson, go back to ollinger, I wouldn't "try something out for myself" without proof and studies -he mentioned why the study has particular loopholes. Almost every study (or rather, every) can be biased to reach a certain conclusion, they have to in order to promote something, the studies are required of them for funding.

Ignorant and arrogant yourself, jackson, although PowerServe was similar.

 

[PowerServe]

I don't want to start a p*ssing contest, BUT jackson vile has been dolling out half assed advice since I first stepped foot on the fitness board. Check out his posts. Giving haphazard advice on sensitive subjects such as blood pressure and cholesterol can kill a person, and, frankly, I'm sick of his Bull****, because that's all it is, Bull****.

Look at the content you say? I did. It's emptiness poorly disguised as questionable advice. He may mean well, but he has NO CLUE about what he's talking about, though, that's not what he says, just ask him.

 

[chess9]

As an interesting aside to this discussion re protein intake, my training partner (who also is my weights coach) is a former world power lifting champion. When he won the championship most of his competitors were taking 500 to 1000 grams of protein per day. (This was the '80's.) He ate a high carbohydrate diet and took relatively small amounts of protein from fish, peanut butter (my favorite food), and chicken breasts.

I'm a low GI carb guy for the most part, and only supplement my protein needs during my heavy weight training cycle in the winter. (just ended)

-Robert
________
Yamaha It250H Specifications

 

[LostMyMojo]

I don't want to start a p*ssing contest, BUT jackson vile has been dolling out half assed advice since I first stepped foot on the fitness board. Check out his posts. Giving haphazard advice on sensitive subjects such as blood pressure and cholesterol can kill a person, and, frankly, I'm sick of his Bull****, because that's all it is, Bull****.

Look at the content you say? I did. It's emptiness poorly disguised as questionable advice. He may mean well, but he has NO CLUE about what he's talking about, though, that's not what he says, just ask him.

Point taken, and after reading some of the other posts (as you mentioned) I'm beginning to agree with you. No p*ssing contest there.

But it's possible to point it out and move on. Or at the very least move on to the next post he makes and point out that that's wrong too. Don't make it too personal.

 

[jackson vile]

PS you have no education at all, I show studies you have nothing at all and no logical reasoning either, you comments are empty and nonsensical.

You are new and it shows, quit embarrassing your self, and get a life as you are taking the internet way too seriously.




You make fallacious comments that I give haphazard advice, I back up all of my information you have nothing especially in your head:mrgreen:



It is sad the best you can due to refute my points is resort to name calling how sad how very very sad

 

[Phil]

As you doubtless know, there's plenty in biological and medical literature that makes little sense; this article demonstrates what may be an epiphenomenon without a HYPOTHESIS, so its value is not manifest. Wurtman of M.I.T. has elegantly demonstrated that tryptophan availability can affect the amount of 5HT in the brain but DOES NOT affect the firing rates of those neurons containing 5HT. So what is the MECHANISM by which amino acid chains might prevent fatigue. The literature is littered with correlations that aren't supported by a useful hypothesis.
Similarly, cognitive performance after an exercise task is hardly a measure of energy. 5HT activity in the brainstem Raphe nuclei is crucial in sleep-wakefulness differentiation but it's anything but clear that this would have an impact on a tennis player's performance unless he'd been up all night.
Finally, a review of this subject in "Ultrafit" Sept 2001 points out that Blomstrand's finding of less fatigue after taking BCAAs has not been replicated in a number of other studies

Any chance of getting a translation of what you just wrote...into ENGLISH?

 

[jackson vile]

Any chance of getting a translation of what you just wrote...into ENGLISH?

He is saying that the study doesn't pan out and that they dont' even understand what is going on/ how it is happening so he thinks the study is moot at best.

 

[Phil]

He is saying that the study doesn't pan out and that they dont' even understand what is going on/ how it is happening so he thinks the study is moot at best.

Thank you!

 

[PowerServe]

cute, jack-nut, so in order to be educated, I must first show references? That doesn't prove education, any half-wit can google BCAA and copy/paste the first article that pops up. Which, obviously, you did. That proves only 2 things: 1) you know how to manuever around google 2) you know how to copy/paste irrevelant information into a forum.

I don't take the forum seriously, but what I do take seriously is dangerous advice someone may use to unknowingly hurt themselves. So I hope no one takes your advice seriously. If they do they could end up dead.

Just go back to talking about racquets and who's gonna win the next tournament - the forums that can safely use "try this, you might like it" advice.

 

[Kevin T]

BCAAs are not worth your time or money. Ditto arginine. A few studies show that BCAAs MAY (key word, MAY) reduce exercise fatigue. MAY. The studies are very limited and not very convincing. Everyone will do much better by eating and exercising properly and allowing for sufficient recovery. The American College of Sports Med or American Dietetic Association do not recommend either supplement. Isolated BCAAs are not found in nature. Can man create a superior food product? Doubt it. "Hey, I just ate a yummy BCAAana. Good stuff!!". Amino acids are an important, yet very tiny, energy source during exercise. Like fat, proteins also require a greater amount of oxygen (hence, a greater degree of energy) during metabolism and also tax the body more during removal of the post-metabolic waste products versus carbs. It's a catch 22. I've said it before and I'll say it again; I played for an ACC school and attended grad school and worked with athletes at an SEC school. We didn't hand out protein powder or argine or creatine or BCAAs and those guys did quite well. Heck, some are even making millions. The only supplement we consumed or provided was good old gatorade and home cooking.

On the topic of journals and sources, I have mentioned before about the "reliability" or "efficacy" of many articles and journals that are cited, especially concerning exercise and nutrition. Of the 100s out there, profs and scientists actually read and trust a handful.

PowerServe is correct. Just because you're formally educated doesn't mean you are "educated". There's more junk out there than good info. Like the Internet, PubMed can be a wonderful resource but also a bane of the truth. Stick with what Mama Nature provides.

Kevin T, PhD, RD, ACSM-certified Exercise Specialist (not showing off, just showing you guys I'm legit)

 

[jackson vile]

You need to grow up. You have posted no references and you don't even understand what PubMed is.

You say something is dangerous, explain it and post some references.


Here are even more references supporting BCAAs use and their effectiveness.

Branched-Chain Amino Acids

Blomstrand E, Celsing F, Newshome EA (1988) Changes in plasma concentrations of aromatic and branch-chain amino acids during sustained exercise in man and their possible role in fatigue. Acta Physiologica Scandinavica 133, 115-21

Bloomstrand E, Hassmen P, Ekblom B et al (1991 ) Administration of branch-chain amino acids during sustained exercise - effects on performance and on plasma concentration of some amino acids. European Journal of Applied Physiology 63, 83-8

Bloomstrand E, Hassmen P, Newsholme E (1991 ) Effect of branch-chain amino acid supplementation on mental performance. Acta Physiologica Scandinavica 143, 225-6

Carli G, Bonifazi M, Lodi L et al (1992 ) Changes in exercise-induced hormone response to branched chain amino acid administration. European Journal of Applied Physiology 64, 272-7

Coombes J, McNaughton L (1995) The effects of branched chain amino acid supplementation on indicators of muscle damage after prolonged strenuous exercise. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise 27, S149 (abstract )

Davis JM (1995) Carbohydrates, branched-chain amino acids, and endurance, The central fatigue hypothesis. International Journal of Sport Nutrition 5, S29-38.

Davis JM, Baily SP, Woods JA et al (1992). Effects of carbohydrate feedings on plasma free tryptophan and branched-chain amino acids during prolonged cycling European Journal of Applied Physiology 65, 513-19

Gastmann UA, Lehmann MJ (1998). Overtraining and the BCAA hypothesis. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise 30, 1173-8

Hefler SK, Wildman L, Gaesser GA et al (1993). Branched-chain amino acid (BCAA) supplementation improves endurance performance in competitive cyclists. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise 25, S24 (abstract)

Kreider RB (1998). Central fatigue hypothesis and overtraining. In Kreider RB, Fry AC, O’Toole M (editors), Overtraining in Sport (pages 309-31). Champaign, Illinois: Human Kinetics

Kreider RB, Jackson CW (1994). Effects of amino acid supplementation on psychological status during and intercollegiate swim season. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise 26, S115 (abstract)

Kreider RB, Miller GW, Mitchell M et al (1992). Effects of amino acid supplementation on ultraendurance triathlon performance. In Proceedings of the I World Congress on Sport Nutrition (pages 488-536). Barcelona, Spain
Enero

Newsholme EA, Parry-Billings M, McAndrew M et al (1991). Biochemical mechanism to explain some characteristics of overtraining. In Brouns F (editor) Medical Sports Science, Vol. 32, Advances in Nutrition and Top Sport (pages 79-93). Basel, Germany Karger

Wagenmakers AJ (1998. Muscle amino acid metabolism at rest and during exercise: role in human physiology and metabolism. In Holloszy JO (editor) Exercise and Sport Sciences Reviews (pages 287-314). Baltimore, Maryland Williams & Wilkins


Enjoy PoorServe you have been smoked!


You can buy BCAAs here for $10.00 for 200grams (cheap and more safe than drinking your local tap water)
http://www.easycart.net/BeyondACenturyInc./Amino_Acids_Arginine_Formulas_etc.html

 

[PowerServe]

so you just googled a bunch of studies to post here, huh? you probably didn't even read them.

This post doesn't discredit me, it just makes you look like a fool. I know what Pub Med is. Let it die little boy.

 

[jackson vile]

I have posted 16 different studies supporting the use of BCAAs, you have nothing what so ever.


I did my homework a long time ago and you are just now making an uneducated guess, and you guessed wrong Powder Puff.


These supplements are used by the best athletes in the world, the best trainers along with the best nutritionist use those for themselves and for their clients that range from professional athletes to Olympic athletes.


Do you want real world references, I can give you those also.

Do you know who Don Allies is, Charles Palanquin, John M Beardy, Charlie Francis, Bryan Haycock, Charles Staley, ect, ect.


Also you have not substantiated your claim that these supplements are dangerous.


You severely lack education and practical and advanced applications of an education in real life and optimal athletics.


Give up Poor Sport, Cross Over, Slam Dunk, Game Ova!:mrgreen:

 

[Phil]

I'll go with KevinT's assessment-BCAA's are worthless garbage (like 95% of the crap peddled in GNC and other vitamin/supplement chains).

Save your money and buy vegatables and other REAL nutrition.

 

[PowerServe]

Re-read my posts dipshit, I never said bcaa's were dangerous. You posted 16 studies? what does that tell us? not a damn thing except you know how to copy/paste. If you're so educated, explain one, JUST ONE, of the studies you posted with an intelligent tongue. You can't do it. You missed the boat along time ago, Barney.

wanna see something neat? Here are 13 cited studies on creatine implementation. It took 60 SECONDS TOTAL to google and find ALL 13 of these cited studies listed at the bottom of an article - the great part was that they were all listed together, so I didn't even have to look up and read each study and according to you, that's all I need to do to prove my education.

Here I'll show you:
http://www.man-health-magazine-online.com/creatine-research.html

They are CITED studies located at the end of the article. The citations (what you copy/pasted above and what I've pasted below) include ZERO information. Go fool someone else with your childish antics, it ain't gonna work here...



Walter MC, et al. Creatine monohydrate in muscular dystrophies: A double blind, placebo-controlled clinical study. Neurology 2000 May 9; 54(9): 1848-50.

Tarnopolsky M, et al. Creatine monohydrate increases strength in patients with neuromuscular disease. Neurology 1999 Mar 10; 52(4): 854-7.
Protective effect of the energy precursor creatine against toxicity of glutamate and beta-amyloid in rat hippocampal neurons. J Neurochem 1968-1978; 74(5).

Malcon C, et al. Neuroprotective effects of creatine administration against NMDA and malonate toxicity. Brain Res 2000; 860(1-2): 195-8.
Matthews RT, et al. Creatine and cyclocreatine attenuate MPTP neurotoxicity. Exp Neurol 1999; 157(1): 142-9.

Balestrino M, et al. Role of creatine and phosphocreatine in neuronal protection from anoxic and ischemic damage. Amino Acids Abstract 2002; 23(1-3): 221-229.

Matthews RT, et al. Neuroprotective effects of creatine and cyclocreatine in animal models of Huntington's disease. J Neurosci 1998; 18(1): 156-163.

Ferrante RJ, et al. Neuroprotective effects of creatine in a transgenic mouse model of Huntington's disease. J Neurosci 2000; 20(12): 4389-97.

Klivenyi P, et al. Neuroprotective effects of creatine in a transgenic animal model of amyotrophic lateral sclerosis. Nat Med 1999; 5(3): 347-50.

Gordon A, et al. Creatine supplementation in chronic heart failure increases skeletal muscle creatine phosphate and muscle performance. Cardiovasc Res 1995 Sep; 30(3): 413-8.

Andrews R, et al. The effect of dietary creatine supplementation on skeletal muscle metabolism in congestive heart failure. Eur Heart J 1998 Apr; 19(4): 617-22.

Broqvist M, et al. Nutritional assessment and muscle energy metabolism in severe chronic congestive heart failure-effects of long-term dietary supplementation. Eur Heart J 1994 Dec; 15(12): 1641-50.

Park JH, et al. Use of P-31 magnetic resonance spectroscopy to detect metabolic abnormalities in muscles of patients with fibromyalgia. Arthritis Rheum 1998 Mar; 41(3): 406-13.

 

[PowerServe]

And by the way, unless you have something intelligent to say, I have no more use for this thread.

 

[jackson vile]

So what was the point, you still have not refuted my points that I made and then the studies that I cited to support my information?

All you do is get angry and want people to believe you are right about this and that because you said so.


"but what I do take seriously is dangerous advice someone may use to unknowingly hurt themselves."Powder Puff

"Giving haphazard advice on sensitive subjects such as blood pressure and cholesterol can kill a person"-Powder Puff

Here you are saying that BCAAs are dangrous and then I never said anything about cholesterol.

Further more you keep going back and editing your posts and most got deleted.


You show a total lack of decency and education you are the poster boy for ignorant, there is a picture of you in there with your glasses and pocket protector:mrgreen:


Luecine is the most important in respect to the body, as it can help with increase of hGH, but that is not for energy, dilation of blood vessels do increase performance as it increases your body's ability to import energy and export oxidized waste. We see this demonstrated with many athletes taking low doses of Viagra and cialis now.

 

[PowerServe]

First, I never disagreed with your post... and frankly, I never read past the "it'll make you retain water so you'll be slow." <--- That's wrong.

Second, the danger I was referring to was your post in the Blood Pressure thread

"Pottasium and magnesium will drop that right down guaranteed, love that stuff"

I deal with high blood pressure patients on a daily basis, and the advice you gave on the thread was to a what, a teenager? A teenager is easily influenced. Though, both you and I know to take advice from a public forum with a grain of salt, this kid may not realize this. Your advice was irresponsible at best. What if the kid started popping handfulls of potassium and magnesium at a time? Would it kill him? Probably not, but you never know what adverse side effects some people may have while taking new supplements. The whole point of all of this is that you must, like someone mentioned to you on another thread, always err on the side of caution, because you never know who you're giving advice to or what they're going to do with that advice.

For example, vitamin D can be lethal if taken in large doses. If you give someone advice pertaining to V-D that is similar to the advice given in the blood pressure thread, you never know what harm they're going to inflict on themselves if they decide to take ten to twenty thousand grams at a time. Many people's mentallity is "more is better", but with some things, "more can be dangerous." So just be cautious.

 

[jackson vile]

Oh........... Power Aid............... Will you ever learn.................