Any experience with roster change after match has started? (USTA)

[BustedString]

Here's the scenario: Team A playing Team B on Wed. 7/3 in an 18+ 4.0 Men's match in an outdoor league. There's rain in forecast late at night but Team A says looks like rain let's exchange rosters and do post-plays. Given that it's night before holiday, Team B agrees. I am Team C and I played that night, it didn't rain until after 9:00 PM, we finished our match (6:00 PM) easily before any hint of rain.

The first 4 Team A vs. Team B post-play rain-out matches are completed in the next week (we have 2 weeks to complete in our District). It's 2-2. The remaining match includes the captain of Team A, who is the weakest player on either team, and it is scheduled for the evening of Thurs. 7/10. That afternoon, Team A Captain emails the players (but not captain) of Team B and says that a different player will be subbing for him. New Team A Player's TLS and Tennis Record ratings are a full .4 higher (3.4 vs. 3.8 and 3.5 vs. 3.9 on the respective sites).

The match is played without Team B Captain knowing or approving of the substitution. Team A wins 2 single break sets with the stronger player subbing. Team A Captain enters the score. The next morning Team B Captain emails Team A Captain and says "hey, the scorecard doesn't match the roster we exchanged" and then is told that sub was made because Team A Captain's wife/MIL are out of town due to her cousins death from a heroin OD and he has to watch their 4 kids. Team B Captain then emails the LLC (local league coordinator) for our area and says this shouldn't be allowed and they have some discussion on it and Team B Captain quotes rules that prohibit non-injury substitutions after a match has started. The LLC says she will follow up on it, but they don't.

Last week, my team (Team C) played Team B and we are friendly. They complained about the situation to me. There is a high level of mistrust for many with Team A Captain after dealing with him for a decade+ and it's well-earned. He was an LLC last year but not asked to return after doing things like putting his team at favorable court sites, etc. I investigated the rules and found both National and Local (pasted at end) which prohibited this. I also then Facebook/IG/Twitter stalked and found several of the Team A Captain wife's cousins who had unsecured social media accounts with active posts during this time and found none mentioned the death. Team A Captain also ran a tournament the next day (and all weekend). I realize it doesn't mean it didn't happen but I just don't trust Team A Captain.

I complained to the LLC/DLC/SLC and was told to file a grievance. Team B Captain had previously considered doing this but they are not in contention for the league and didn't want to spend the $, so it was more about principal for them. After consulting with Team B Captain and their players to get facts and agreement on grievance, I filed it with Team B Captain/players in full agreement on facts as outlined above. Team A Captain had until Tuesday (2 days ago) to reply. I haven't heard back a response yet, I was hoping for today but it looks like not.

Our last local league match was last night. Our District/State Championships are next weekend. Do others have any knowledge of similar situations? If I lose the first round, should I appeal? Needless to say, if that court flips to a default/loss for Team A, then my team (Team C) wins the league. I was short 4 of my best players when I played Team A and one of our dubs teams had an off night, so we lost 2-3. We have won many more courts so we would win the league. I don't think it's a technicality and I don't think a captain can sub in a clearly stronger player at 2-2 no matter what the reason, although it appears a documentable injury is allowed. But Team B Captain sent me the emails with out of town death reason.

Here are the rules:

USTA National rule "2.01C(5) Team Line-Ups. The team captain for each team shall exchange their team line-up simultaneously prior to the beginning of the team match. No substitution may be made in an individual match after the line-up has been presented, except for injury to, illness of, or disqualification of a player prior to the start of such match."

Local/District Rule: "E. If one or more of the team matches has started, the rescheduled match must be played with the same players (as exchanged) for all matches, even though some matches may not have started."

 

[ShaunS]

I don't think it's a technicality and I don't think a captain can sub in a clearly stronger player at 2-2 no matter what the reason, although it appears a documentable injury is allowed.

Well, it is a technicality, but that's true of all rules.

In this case I would argue that the intent is immaterial. If the original players are unable to play then they'd have to forfeit that position.

This is not something I've had to deal with in the past though.

 

[kevrol]

Seems strictly prohibited by your local rules. It shouldn't stand. I will say that in my local area you can sub out any player on any court that hasn't started. The only caveat is that the sub must be a player that was not in the exchanged lineups.

 

[J_R_B]

First of all, lack of acknowledgement in public on social media of heroin ODs is indicative of nothing. That's not something that everyone will just broadcast to strangers.

In terms of the rules, I believe that Team A should be forced to forfeit the court. This is clearly against the rules. If I were the captain of Team B and Captain A wrote to me beforehand and had been upfront about the change for a match that had not started yet, I probably would have been OK with it, but just doing it without asking makes it seem underhanded in some way from the start and would have me upset as well.

 

[J_R_B]

USTA National rule "2.01C(5) Team Line-Ups. The team captain for each team shall exchange their team line-up simultaneously prior to the beginning of the team match. No substitution may be made in an individual match after the line-up has been presented, except for injury to, illness of, or disqualification of a player prior to the start of such match."

This isn't the full text of the rule. Below is quoted the entire rule 2.01C(5) from the 2019 national league rules.

https://www.usta.com/content/dam/usta/pdfs/20180813_USTA_League_2019_Regulations.pdf

2.01C(5) Team Line-Ups. The team captain for each team shall exchange their team line-up simultaneously prior to the beginning of the team match. No substitution may be made in an individual match after the line-up has been presented, except for injury to, illness of, or disqualification of a player prior to the start of such match and except under such further circumstances as a Sectional Association may authorize. If the substitution is made during the warm-up, the substitute player is entitled to a five minute warm-up. The default principles in Reg. 2.03K Team Defaults and 2.03L Scoring of Team Defaults shall be applicable.

The applicable part of what you left out is this: except under such further circumstances as a Sectional Association may authorize. I don't know what section you are located in, but here is the applicable passage from the Middle States sectional rules:

https://netplaymag.files.wordpress.com/2017/11/2018-section_regulations.pdf

When a match is postponed to another day and an individual match has not started (as defined above) a captain may change the lineup for any such match.

This is ambiguous as written because the "match" in the statement "When a match is postponed to another day" is not modified as "team match" or "individual match", which makes a big difference. If "match" means "team match", then the implication is that you can't substitute unless the whole entire match is postponed so that if 4 courts are already played, you can't substitute for the 5th on a later day. If "match" means "individual match", then the implication is that you CAN substitute for that final match on the later day. This is not a clear cut ruling but will be up to the whim of the grievance committee.

Of course, this is just Middle States. If you're in a different section, it may have different rules, but it's worth checking.

 

[BustedString]

I am USTAMidwest and our rules are here: http://s3.amazonaws.com/ustaassets/assets/615/15/8_rules_-_2017_midwest_rules.pdf

The best I found find in it was this section, which allows substitutions as the local league authorizes (see bold below). That would appear to me the same wording as Nationals with a deferral to Local to deviate. Our local wording (which I pasted after the Sectional) is stricter than National to me but either way is non-ambiguous about NOT permitting non-injury roster changes after the match has started. Middle States is definitely more ambiguous. I found nothing else in our Local rules to conflict with the prohibition on changing roster after match starts.

Realistically speaking, unless a player has a legitimate injury, I don't think the USTA should allow player substitutions in post-play match situations and I think they should require documentation of the injury. If this guy had cared to read the rules he simply could have said he was injured and gotten away with this.

Sectional:

G Team Lineups. The team captains for each team shall exchange their team match lineups simultaneously prior to the beginning of the team match. No substitution may be made in an individual match after the lineup has been presented, except for injury to or illness of a player prior to the start of such match, and except under such further circumstances as the local league authorizes. If the substitution is made during the warm-up, the substitute player is entitled to a five (5) minute warm-up.

Local:

"E. If one or more of the team matches has started, the rescheduled match must be played with the same players (as exchanged) for all matches, even though some matches may not have started."

 

[BustedString]

As I read the local rule above, assuming that Local rules trump Sectional/National when there is the deferral like our Section did, then even an injury would be precluded in our local rules.

 

[Rusbus]

In adult rec leagues....If matches get changed or canceled you should be able to change players. This is rec tennis and the goal should be to play matches. To much in life to have to be so strict on it. I captain many teams and would be very flexible in this regard within reason, as should you.

 

[BustedString]

In adult rec leagues....If matches get changed or canceled you should be able to change players. This is rec tennis and the goal should be to play matches. To much in life to have to be so strict on it. I captain many teams and would be very flexible in this regard within reason, as should you.

Respectfully disagree. I don't think captains should be allowed to use rain or the threat of rain to be able to change rosters, especially after a match has started and when they do it to substitute a stronger player in when it's 2-2. This is not World Team Tennis. You win or lose with who is on the roster.

 

[J_R_B]

I am USTAMidwest and our rules are here: http://s3.amazonaws.com/ustaassets/assets/615/15/8_rules_-_2017_midwest_rules.pdf

The best I found find in it was this section, which allows substitutions as the local league authorizes (see bold below). That would appear to me the same wording as Nationals with a deferral to Local to deviate. Our local wording (which I pasted after the Sectional) is stricter than National to me but either way is non-ambiguous about NOT permitting non-injury roster changes after the match has started. Middle States is definitely more ambiguous. I found nothing else in our Local rules to conflict with the prohibition on changing roster after match starts.

Realistically speaking, unless a player has a legitimate injury, I don't think the USTA should allow player substitutions in post-play match situations and I think they should require documentation of the injury. If this guy had cared to read the rules he simply could have said he was injured and gotten away with this.

Sectional:

G Team Lineups. The team captains for each team shall exchange their team match lineups simultaneously prior to the beginning of the team match. No substitution may be made in an individual match after the lineup has been presented, except for injury to or illness of a player prior to the start of such match, and except under such further circumstances as the local league authorizes. If the substitution is made during the warm-up, the substitute player is entitled to a five (5) minute warm-up.

Local:

"E. If one or more of the team matches has started, the rescheduled match must be played with the same players (as exchanged) for all matches, even though some matches may not have started."

Rule G is part of the Combo rules, so it wouldn't apply to you. It appears that your sectional rules are silent on the matter (unlike Middle States), so the local & national rules (which are consistent) should apply. In general, local rules that conflict with national rules do not take precedence. There has to be an exception granted in the national rules (as there is here) for a local or sectional rule to contradict a national rule.

 

[Rusbus]

Respectfully disagree. I don't think captains should be allowed to use rain or the threat of rain to be able to change rosters, especially after a match has started and when they do it to substitute a stronger player in when it's 2-2. This is not World Team Tennis. You win or lose with who is on the roster.

I get it...But!!! We are all adults and have other priorities in life. Work with the captain, see if he is available for the match and why the person isn't playing. A date change has to have some flexibility in it especially due to nature. The goal should be to play tennis...Not default.

If the guy has a death on his tennis team...That seems pretty damn legit need for him to swap a player. Look in the mirror and ask yourself what you would want someone else to do for you instead of them saying sorry, rule 5b.6e 211 states this.

Be human

 

[BustedString]

I get it...But!!! We are all adults and have other priorities in life. Work with the captain, see if he is available for the match and why the person isn't playing. A date change has to have some flexibility in it especially due to nature. The goal should be to play tennis...Not default.

If the guy has a death on his tennis team...That seems pretty damn legit need for him to swap a player. Look in the mirror and ask yourself what you would want someone else to do for you instead of them saying sorry, rule 5b.6e 211 states this.

Be human

I'll spare details, but I am not at all trusting of Team A Captain and even if this tragedy happened, I am comfortable my humanity is strong. My experience with sudden tragedies happening right at critical junctures is to be dubious. The match is 2-2, a much stronger player who was not available the day of the match is now available, notice / request for approval from the other captain was not asked (or any league coordinators -- this guy was an LLC last year, should have known to ask captains / coordinators).

The other thing is our local rules give 2 weeks for post-plays with extensions available if requested by the LLC. The match did not have to played on that day, but it did have to be played with that roster. They had almost a full week left with extensions almost always granted for another when requested.

 

[OnTheLine]

It all comes down to one simple thing: Did the court in question start their play with players Joe and Bob and THEN become Joe and George?

If a single point had been played (not warm up but actual match point) that court must finish with the same players that began it. If no points have been played then either team can switch out players.

Here is the pertinent section from our local league (USTA) rules:

8.00A Inclement Weather. Unless agreed upon by both captains, all players must be present at match time, even if a rain out is obvious. If courts are not playable within 30 minutes from the scheduled match time, either team may force the match to be rescheduled. Teams are not required to wait longer than 30 minutes from the scheduled match start time. When a match is postponed following the exchange of line-ups, the line-up would stand only for those positions that had already started (first service attempt) their match. All other positions, even those that were in warm-up may be changed including defaulted courts.

Please note that the rules do not specify that the other captain has to agree.

 

[BustedString]

It all comes down to one simple thing: Did the court in question start their play with players Joe and Bob and THEN become Joe and George?

If a single point had been played (not warm up but actual match point) that court must finish with the same players that began it. If no points have been played then either team can switch out players.

Here is the pertinent section from our local league (USTA) rules:

8.00A Inclement Weather. Unless agreed upon by both captains, all players must be present at match time, even if a rain out is obvious. If courts are not playable within 30 minutes from the scheduled match time, either team may force the match to be rescheduled. Teams are not required to wait longer than 30 minutes from the scheduled match start time. When a match is postponed following the exchange of line-ups, the line-up would stand only for those positions that had already started (first service attempt) their match. All other positions, even those that were in warm-up may be changed including defaulted courts.

Please note that the rules do not specify that the other captain has to agree.

Interesting. Your local rules explicitly allow something our local rules explicitly prohibit. Our local rules are the most strict I've seen (injury not even a reason to allow change) and yours are the most lenient. I would say, in general, I agree with the National rules which allow the injury sub only. I would definitely lose my grievance in your locality.

 

[Cashman]

Local/District Rule: "E. If one or more of the team matches has started, the rescheduled match must be played with the same players (as exchanged) for all matches, even though some matches may not have started."

The rule seems pretty clear cut, but also excessively strict for a local amateur league where people have all manner of other commitments. I would be pretty annoyed if my match had to be rescheduled to a night I wasn't available, and my only option was defaulting the court. In practice do captains actually enforce it, or do they allow informal swaps? Because if it's the latter, this is going to come off as incredibly opportunistic use of a technicality.

In fact I get the feeling from your post that you wouldn't even consider taking this further if it was a captain you weren't prejudiced against. And rightly so - the optics are terrible.

Pursue it if you like - sounds like you have a good shot at winning - but don't be surprised if you damage your reputation by doing so. A lot of people are going to see you as the one trying to use a family tragedy for your own benefit.

 

[Rusbus]

It all comes down to one simple thing: Did the court in question start their play with players Joe and Bob and THEN become Joe and George?

If a single point had been played (not warm up but actual match point) that court must finish with the same players that began it. If no points have been played then either team can switch out players.

Here is the pertinent section from our local league (USTA) rules:

8.00A Inclement Weather. Unless agreed upon by both captains, all players must be present at match time, even if a rain out is obvious. If courts are not playable within 30 minutes from the scheduled match time, either team may force the match to be rescheduled. Teams are not required to wait longer than 30 minutes from the scheduled match start time. When a match is postponed following the exchange of line-ups, the line-up would stand only for those positions that had already started (first service attempt) their match. All other positions, even those that were in warm-up may be changed including defaulted courts.

Please note that the rules do not specify that the other captain has to agree.

So in short

The rule seems pretty clear cut, but also excessively strict for a local amateur league where people have all manner of other commitments. I would be pretty annoyed if my match had to be rescheduled to a night I wasn't available, and my only option was defaulting the court. In practice do captains actually enforce it, or do they allow informal swaps? Because if it's the latter, this is going to come off as incredibly opportunistic use of a technicality.

In fact I get the feeling from your post that you wouldn't even consider taking this further if it was a captain you weren't prejudiced against. And rightly so - the optics are terrible.

Pursue it if you like - sounds like you have a good shot at winning - but don't be surprised if you damage your reputation by doing so. A lot of people are going to see you as the one trying to use a family tragedy for your own benefit.

This...The 5 paragraph post sounds like the poster is the issue not the other guy......

 

[GrassCourtFan]

I mean, it all comes down to whether the captain is telling the truth.

If he is, IMO it obviously makes sense to let someone else swap in and play, since the point of rec tennis is to play tennis and not to earn defaults by scheduling.

If he's making up an excuse in order to sub in a better player now that he sees the score is 2-2, that's obviously a jerk move.

By the way the OP is written, the story is clearly implying the latter, mentioning the score and mentioning playoffs and how the team was informed but not the opposing captain and the "high levels of mistrust".But the post never actually says "I think the captain is lying".

I would tend to start by assuming that people tell the truth about stuff like that. Who would invent a story of a heroin OD death as an excuse to sub a player in a USTA match?

 

[dcdoorknob]

I’m a little confused why lineups were exchanged in the first place in this situation. I’ve played usta in two different areas and in both lineups aren’t exchanged until captains meet at courts, in person, just before matches are to start.

Weather delays, especially ones called prior to making everyone drive to the courts, mean lineups never get exchanged between the 2 teams, and as such there is no obligation to keep the make up lineup identical to what it would have been on the original day (people have lives).

IMO exchanging lineups even tho they weren’t even planning to play on the original day was unnecessary and a root cause of the drama. Idk maybe that’s standard practice in other locals? Doesn’t seem like a good one.

 

[catfish]

If a match no points have been played, you can change the line-up unless your Section has a rule that states otherwise. This is covered in the USTA National Rule Q&A on page 4. There is a link to this document on the TennisLink home page, and I am surprised at how few people ever look at it. It gives the rationale for many rules.

2/1/07 Updated 12/16/11: When a match is postponed following the exchange of line-ups, do the original line- ups stand for the make-up match?

If the Section speaks to this issue the Section/District rule would be followed. Otherwise, the line-up would stand only for those positions that had already started (first service attempt) their match. All other positions, even those that were in warm-up may be changed including defaulted courts.
See Regulation: 2.01C(5)

 

[Cawlin]

There's a team in my ALTA mixed division that does similar stuff all the time. The captain has a number of real "ringers" on her team but they have limited availability and mostly can't play weekends when the matches are regularly scheduled. She will start calling/texting opposing captains for weeks in advance telling them all that she's got availability problems and wants to play some lines early and this and that... and if the opposing captains balk she gives them the sob story "So you want to win by default, huh? Great sportsmanship there!" when in reality, she's got players to fill the lines, just not her ringers... this past season she duped me with this crap, and I agreed to play some low lines early then stacked them with her better players. Hers was the only team to take 4 out of 5 points against mine all season. I spread the word to other captains about this, and other captains started refusing her requests... her team wound up missing playoffs altogether because she was forced to play on weekends.

Here's the scenario: Team A playing Team B on Wed. 7/3 in an 18+ 4.0 Men's match in an outdoor league. There's rain in forecast late at night but Team A says looks like rain let's exchange rosters and do post-plays. Given that it's night before holiday, Team B agrees. I am Team C and I played that night, it didn't rain until after 9:00 PM, we finished our match (6:00 PM) easily before any hint of rain.

The first 4 Team A vs. Team B post-play rain-out matches are completed in the next week (we have 2 weeks to complete in our District). It's 2-2. The remaining match includes the captain of Team A, who is the weakest player on either team, and it is scheduled for the evening of Thurs. 7/10. That afternoon, Team A Captain emails the players (but not captain) of Team B and says that a different player will be subbing for him. New Team A Player's TLS and Tennis Record ratings are a full .4 higher (3.4 vs. 3.8 and 3.5 vs. 3.9 on the respective sites).

The match is played without Team B Captain knowing or approving of the substitution. Team A wins 2 single break sets with the stronger player subbing. Team A Captain enters the score. The next morning Team B Captain emails Team A Captain and says "hey, the scorecard doesn't match the roster we exchanged" and then is told that sub was made because Team A Captain's wife/MIL are out of town due to her cousins death from a heroin OD and he has to watch their 4 kids. Team B Captain then emails the LLC (local league coordinator) for our area and says this shouldn't be allowed and they have some discussion on it and Team B Captain quotes rules that prohibit non-injury substitutions after a match has started. The LLC says she will follow up on it, but they don't.

Last week, my team (Team C) played Team B and we are friendly. They complained about the situation to me. There is a high level of mistrust for many with Team A Captain after dealing with him for a decade+ and it's well-earned. He was an LLC last year but not asked to return after doing things like putting his team at favorable court sites, etc. I investigated the rules and found both National and Local (pasted at end) which prohibited this. I also then Facebook/IG/Twitter stalked and found several of the Team A Captain wife's cousins who had unsecured social media accounts with active posts during this time and found none mentioned the death. Team A Captain also ran a tournament the next day (and all weekend). I realize it doesn't mean it didn't happen but I just don't trust Team A Captain.

I complained to the LLC/DLC/SLC and was told to file a grievance. Team B Captain had previously considered doing this but they are not in contention for the league and didn't want to spend the $, so it was more about principal for them. After consulting with Team B Captain and their players to get facts and agreement on grievance, I filed it with Team B Captain/players in full agreement on facts as outlined above. Team A Captain had until Tuesday (2 days ago) to reply. I haven't heard back a response yet, I was hoping for today but it looks like not.

Our last local league match was last night. Our District/State Championships are next weekend. Do others have any knowledge of similar situations? If I lose the first round, should I appeal? Needless to say, if that court flips to a default/loss for Team A, then my team (Team C) wins the league. I was short 4 of my best players when I played Team A and one of our dubs teams had an off night, so we lost 2-3. We have won many more courts so we would win the league. I don't think it's a technicality and I don't think a captain can sub in a clearly stronger player at 2-2 no matter what the reason, although it appears a documentable injury is allowed. But Team B Captain sent me the emails with out of town death reason.

Here are the rules:

USTA National rule "2.01C(5) Team Line-Ups. The team captain for each team shall exchange their team line-up simultaneously prior to the beginning of the team match. No substitution may be made in an individual match after the line-up has been presented, except for injury to, illness of, or disqualification of a player prior to the start of such match."

Local/District Rule: "E. If one or more of the team matches has started, the rescheduled match must be played with the same players (as exchanged) for all matches, even though some matches may not have started."

Baggers are gonna bag...

 

[Rusbus]

There's a team in my ALTA mixed division that does similar stuff all the time. The captain has a number of real "ringers" on her team but they have limited availability and mostly can't play weekends when the matches are regularly scheduled. She will start calling/texting opposing captains for weeks in advance telling them all that she's got availability problems and wants to play some lines early and this and that... and if the opposing captains balk she gives them the sob story "So you want to win by default, huh? Great sportsmanship there!" when in reality, she's got players to fill the lines, just not her ringers... this past season she duped me with this crap, and I agreed to play some low lines early then stacked them with her better players. Hers was the only team to take 4 out of 5 points against mine all season. I spread the word to other captains about this, and other captains started refusing her requests... her team wound up missing playoffs altogether because she was forced to play on weekends.

Baggers are gonna bag...

Lol...

 

[Cawlin]

Lol....Your team sucked and hers didn’t. You got beat and complained. Great job!

Actually, my team just won city championships, and her team didn't even make the playoffs. It turned out that a number of the other team captains knew this practice of hers from previous seasons without my warning them.

And yes, in rec tennis, the focus should be on playing matches, not gaming the system. Rainouts are one thing... begging for early/late play due to "availability issues" and then subbing in ringers for lines that people agree to play early because your ringers are too busy with their other teams on the weekend is another.

USTA and ALTA handle these issues differently, both systems have their strengths and weaknesses.

In ALTA a roster change can happen any time (prior to the first point of a line's match being started) as long as the roster change is "legal" (i.e. the player has to be approved ON the roster 24 hours prior to the match, and can't have moved too far up or down in the lineup based on previous play).

In general, I am all about accommodating a request to play early, and make such requests myself when I run into issues, however I am honest about it - if I ask you to play line 4 early, I'm playing my line 4 people, not some ringer that I added to the roster yesterday that would otherwise be playing line 1.

 

[Rusbus]

Actually, my team just won city championships, and her team didn't even make the playoffs. It turned out that a number of the other team captains knew this practice of hers from previous seasons without my warning them.

And yes, in rec tennis, the focus should be on playing matches, not gaming the system. Rainouts are one thing... begging for early/late play due to "availability issues" and then subbing in ringers for lines that people agree to play early because your ringers are too busy with their other teams on the weekend is another.

USTA and ALTA handle these issues differently, both systems have their strengths and weaknesses.

In ALTA a roster change can happen any time (prior to the first point of a line's match being started) as long as the roster change is "legal" (i.e. the player has to be approved ON the roster 24 hours prior to the match, and can't have moved too far up or down in the lineup based on previous play).

In general, I am all about accommodating a request to play early, and make such requests myself when I run into issues, however I am honest about it - if I ask you to play line 4 early, I'm playing my line 4 people, not some ringer that I added to the roster yesterday that would otherwise be playing line 1.

So your team is good because you got to play your "ringers"...Her better players can't play on the weekends so she asked if she could get them in early. You lost so you told all the other captains don't let her change match times, they have good players that can't play weekends. Only play them on the weekend so you can win.

Silly if you ask me.

 

[J_R_B]

So your team is good because you got to play your "ringers"...Her better players can't play on the weekends so she asked if she could get them in early. You lost so you told all the other captains don't let her change match times, they have good players that can't play weekends. Only play them on the weekend so you can win.

Silly if you ask me.

It's not silly if the league is a weekend league, and this captain is trying to completely upset the league schedule to accommodate her team.

 

[Cawlin]

So your team is good because you got to play your "ringers"...Her better players can't play on the weekends so she asked if she could get them in early. You lost so you told all the other captains don't let her change match times, they have good players that can't play weekends. Only play them on the weekend so you can win.

Silly if you ask me.

The league is specifically set up for weekend play. That's kind of the nature of the thing. Playing "early" is done as a courtesy, but it is specifically caveatted that team captains shouldn't feel obliged to honor a request to play early if it would weaken their own lineup. Playing piecemeal lines here and there after a rainout is a situation that comes up, and all captains deal with it. Further, availability issues are always a factor in adult rec league tennis. We do what we can to manage it, and I pretty much honor all requests to play early when I can do so without weakening my lineup. If I get a request, I'll put it out to the team. However, going forward, I'll be getting names of propsed early players before agreeing to it and I will cancel the early line play if any part of that changes - I don't do that to people and I won't have it done to me again either.

This captain's ringers are people who play at USTA 4.0 and 4.5 levels but who either a) sit out of ALTA long enough for their former ratings to be zeroed out (only one calendar year now, used to be 2) or b) she got them on her roster for her 3.0-3.5 team before they ever played ALTA and so have no ALTA standing, but can only play a match here or there... you can see all of this in their play history online.

Further, this little region I'm in right now is all fairly incestuous with respect to players on teams. We all know who is on which teams, some of us play on some teams with people that we play against on other teams and so on and so forth. This particular captain, I've known for 2 years. I'll call her "Becky" a la @Cindysphinx. Becky recruited my wife for one of her women's teams when my wife was just starting out a couple years ago. Becky is the kind of captain that made her own team to ensure she would get to play - which I can respect, to a point... but the thing is Becky isn't very good - maybe line 5 on my mixed team, if I have availability issues - and she didn't put herself in the lineup when she played us in mixed.

Anyway, my wife eventually got enough women interested in playing women's dubs out of our neighborhood to start her own team and my wife's women's dubs team wound up playing Becky's women's dubs team this past spring. Now I also know most of the women on Becky's women's team - I've gone to all my wife's matches when they didn't conflict with my own, so I'm pals with a good number of these ladies... I also knew these women were frustrated with Becky because they're better than her, but Becky keeps putting herself ahead of the other women in the lineup (this was part of the reason my wife started her own team as well). So half of Becky's team came to our neighborhood on a makeup match night after a rainout (the match should have been played on Sunday) - it was like a wednesday evening at 7 pm or something, dressed in their street clothes, to sit and watch their team captain, who had been frustrating them all season, take an a**-whipping at the hands of my wife's team's line 1. So that's a little background on "Becky".

As I noted earlier, I had never played Becky's team in mixed, so I didn't expect her to sandbag me, but I don't generally expect that sort of thing... I specifically requested the names of the people Becky was proposing to play the early lines, and she never responded. That should have been my first clue that something was hinky. Afterwards, the first captain I spoke to about the issue actually brought it up to me, but as we both spoke about what happened, it was a pretty identical situation. He showed me his text messages from Becky... and the messages she sent to him this season begging for early lines were exactly the same as the ones she sent to me "oh you want to win by default, great sportsmanship there!", etc... and the kicker is... he had text messages from her from two seasons prior that were identical to the ones he (and I) got this season. In his case, he denied her request to play early this season after getting burned by her doing it two seasons prior. I'd say this establishes a pattern, no?

So while I get that you think you're being some sort of internet tough guy here browbeating me over calling someone out for sandbagging, I think you're missing the mark pretty badly. What's silly, if you ask me, is weighing in with your definitive(ly wrong) opinion on the matter without knowing the details.

 

[leech]

In my Section (MidAtlantic), captains are allowed to make changes to lineup in the situation OP described:

MidAtlantic Section Local League Rule 6) Line-up Exchange:

c) If a match is postponed after line-ups have been exchanged, all line-up positions may be changed except for any positions that already started their match (first service attempt). (USTA National Q&A Interpretations, Page 4)

 

[brettatk]

Down here in Southern we are allowed to make changes as well. Thank goodness. I can't imagine the forfeits we'd have to endure if I had to keep the same guys in the lineup as match day. Some guys just can't find time to make up a match at night and most do not want to even play at night.

 

[GatorTennis]

And the OP is in a men's league? Sounds like a women's league.

It really sounds like we are hearing one side of the story. As another poster stated, why exchange lineups if everything was being postponed anyway? It sounds like the courts were played separate from each other, so why not just reschedule? Maybe the other team forced the issue? Who knows. I've met some pretty shady captains and I'll tell you what they'd do. They'd show up, warm up for 5 minutes and fake an injury, and coincidentally, the other playing would be waiting because he "wanted to watch the match".

So many easier ways to deal with league tennis. If your team is that good, you'll win. If you can't beat the 2nd place team with your backups, you're probably going to get wiped early at sectionals.

Now if you want to stick it to a captain in this scenario, there is a way. Since everyone is at the court, prepare to play the match. If the rain hasn't made it there by start time, start warm-ups at the designated time. If the opponents refuse to exchange lineups, send your players out to their courts and have them warm-up. Tell the opposing captain that if their players aren't available within 15 minutes, then it will be a default. It doesn't matter if they refuse to exchange lineups, just make sure you notify the opposing captain that warm ups are beginning and what the consequences would be. If they continue to be stubborn, wait out the 15 mins, bring your team in and congratulate them on a sweep. Go home, input the scores as a team default.

There was an instance in my old section where one captain didn't have her best players, so she wanted to wait for the rain, which was coming. The opposing captain wanted to play as much as they could and go from there. Because the opposing captain didn't have the knowledge, she never forced the warm ups, so the 15 min clock didn't start, and it eventually did rain. The solution written above was provided by the LLC at the time, and she said it's the rules and has been discussed at the Section level. You just have to know when and how to push. But the LLC always advocated working with each other, but she understood that some captains just weren't interested in fair play.

All that being said, it's fricking rec league tennis.