Anyone compared Head Speed, Extreme and Instinct?

P

peakofthebounce

Banned
There are three rackets that seem identical at 300g heavy, 1pt. HL, and 16x19 string pattern;

1). Speed;

http://www.head.com/tennis/products/racquets/tour-speed/graphene-speed-mp-1619/7120/?region=us

2). Extreme;

http://www.head.com/tennis/products/racquets/tour-extreme/youtektm-ig-extreme-mp-20/7129/?region=us

3). Instinct;

http://www.head.com/tennis/products/racquets/tour-instinct/graphene-instinct-mp/7125/?region=us

...

If anyone's tried two or more of them - how do they actually differ from each other? Are they basically the same racket in white, yellow and blue, respectively?

Or do they feel somehow different, ie. softer or stiffer...etc...?

Please tell me your experiences.

Thanks
 
Instinct: Game improvement racquet

Extreme: Tweener racquet

Speed: Hybrid of a tweener and a player's racquet
 
peakofthebounce said:
You sound like a bit of a gear snob, thanks for your response - but in terms of how they play, can you explain it?
Click to expand...

Thanks I guess? :)

Instinct - most power, least control, least comfortable, least touch (subjective)

Extreme - most spin

Speed - most control, most comfortable, least power, most touch (subjective)


Game improvement racquets are for rather weaker players. They offer a lot of power and forgiveness, making it easy to play relatively well with moderate strokes.

Tweener racquets are for the modern game. They provide good power and a lot of spin and forgiveness, allowing extremely aggressive topspin strokes. They really shine with fast strokes focused on heavy topspin from the baseline.

Player's racquets are for advanced players. They have a lot of control and require long and fast strokes in order to reach their full potential. Due to their low power and high control, a higher racquet head speed can be achieved without overfiring, which translates into a lot of spin. However, flat penetrating strokes are very effective too, as the racquet controls them effectively. They also really shine at net, as they (generally) have better touch and the control makes it possible to volley effectively, even when it is a difficult low volley. The most versatile type of frame.

Using this general rule you can understand the differences between the racquets quite well.
 
SpinToWin said:
Thanks I guess? :)

Instinct - most power, least control, least comfortable, least touch (subjective)

Extreme - most spin

Speed - most control, most comfortable, least power, most touch (subjective)


Game improvement racquets are for rather weaker players. They offer a lot of power and forgiveness, making it easy to play relatively well with moderate strokes.

Tweener racquets are for the modern game. They provide good power and a lot of spin and forgiveness, allowing extremely aggressive topspin strokes. They really shine with fast strokes focused on heavy topspin from the baseline.

Player's racquets are for advanced players. They have a lot of control and require long and fast strokes in order to reach their full potential. Due to their low power and high control, a higher racquet head speed can be achieved without overfiring, which translates into a lot of spin. However, flat penetrating strokes are very effective too, as the racquet controls them effectively. They also really shine at net, as they (generally) have better touch and the control makes it possible to volley effectively, even when it is a difficult low volley. The most versatile type of frame.

Using this general rule you can understand the differences between the racquets quite well.
Click to expand...

But how is the Instinct offering more power than the Speed because all three of the models I've linked have exactly identical weight (300g) and balance (1pt HL). How can one racket be anymore powerful than the other with these identical stats? Is one noticeably stiffer than the other? Even then, the Tennis Warehouse stats indicate that the Instinct and the Speed differ by about 2 points merely in stiffness...?

Also, when you say that the Extreme offers the 'most spin' - how does it achieve that? Is it somehow the easiest to accelerate vertically? Again, it has identical stats to the other three. I know that string bed pattern affects spin a great deal, yet the Extreme has an identical string bed pattern as the other two (16x19).
 
peakofthebounce said:
But how is the Instinct offering more power than the Speed because all three of the models I've linked have exactly identical weight (300g) and balance (1pt HL). How can one racket be anymore powerful than the other with these identical stats? Is one noticeably stiffer than the other? Even then, the Tennis Warehouse stats indicate that the Instinct and the Speed differ by about 2 points merely in stiffness...?

Also, when you say that the Extreme offers the 'most spin' - how does it achieve that? Is it somehow the easiest to accelerate vertically? Again, it has identical stats to the other three. I know that string bed pattern affects spin a great deal, yet the Extreme has an identical string bed pattern as the other two (16x19).
Click to expand...

How… Location of flex, distribution of mass, beam thickness, the orientation of the graphite at a specific location in the racquet, string density/spacing etc.

There are so many variables that determine the playability characteristics of a racquet, I couldn't point them all out. A specific example is the extreme and topspin. The extreme is extremely (pun pun pun) rounded as a head shape. Therefore, the head is wider and shorter than the other two racquets. This gives a larger spin window, meaning it is easier to hit heavy spin (more effective racquet face to work with). Also, the string pattern is more open with the Extreme, allowing a lot of spin.
 
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Instinct: Advanced tweener racquet

Extreme: Powerful modern players' racquet

Speed: Modern players' racquet
__________________
2 x Head YouTek Prestige Pro (customized). 2
 
For me Extreme is similar to a Babolat's Pure Drive or Aero Pro racquet: thick beam and round face, offers plenty of power and spin. It's for baseline players seek for extra spin and power.

Speed is for all-around players or aggressive baseliners. It offers less power and spin than Extreme, less touch and feel than Prestige or Radical but in general, it has no significant weakness. It's much better at the net.

Instinct: Light and stiff, it's an advanced tweener racquet like Bartelby said above. Its oval head shape is good for flat hitter.

Am I right?
 
No game improvement racquet is 295 grams unstrung.

Extreme is maybe an advanced tweener racquet, but the Pro version is definitely a powerful player's racquet.

And the same goes for the Speed, although less powerful.


SpinToWin said:
Instinct: Game improvement racquet

Extreme: Tweener racquet

Speed: Hybrid of a tweener and a player's racquet
Click to expand...
 
Bartelby said:
No game improvement racquet is 295 grams unstrung.

Extreme is maybe an advanced tweener racquet, but the Pro version is definitely a powerful player's racquet.

And the same goes for the Speed, although less powerful.
Click to expand...

IG Instinct is 300g I assumed the Graphene was too.

Anyway, it's a tweener.
 
Yes, it's 300. I thought they had reduced it for some reason. It seems to be coming in light at 311 strung so maybe that confused me.
 
Pure Control Tour is game improvement racquet to me. It gives me more power than Prestige...

Instinct is a tweener. Game improvement racquets are different story guys.
 
Joonas said:
Pure Control Tour is game improvement racquet to me. It gives me more power than Prestige...

Instinct is a tweener. Game improvement racquets are different story guys.
Click to expand...

There's no way the pure control tour is a game improvement racket. It's a players racket.
 
Instinct is a power tweener, essentially Head's competitor to the Pure Drive. Instinct is a great racquet.

The Extreme is a spin tweener, essentially Head's competitor the Aeropro Drive.

The Speed is kind of unique, but more of a player's tween, akin to the Wilson Blade.
 
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SpinToWin said:
… you might want to reconsider that (urgently).
Click to expand...

But it improves my game. I hit so much easier with good pace...

I am being sarcastic. But to claim the Instinct a game improvement racquet is a bit arrogant. I held Sharapovas racquet in my hand. It is an Instinct albeit custom made and leaded but still an Instinct. To me game improvement racquets are those weird shaped super light things that give power like hell. And which are being used by 70+ year olds. Not top 10 woman...

I agree with above that Instinct is very much Pure Drive like.
 
Joonas said:
But it improves my game. I hit so much easier with good pace...

I am being sarcastic. But to claim the Instinct a game improvement racquet is a bit arrogant. I held Sharapovas racquet in my hand. It is an Instinct albeit custom made and leaded but still an Instinct. To me game improvement racquets are those weird shaped super light things that give power like hell. And which are being used by 70+ year olds. Not top 10 woman...

I agree with above that Instinct is very much Pure Drive like.
Click to expand...

Sharapova's racquet is a customized YouTek Radical Pro, not an Instinct. I cannot think of any pro that uses the new Graphene Instinct because it truly is a game improvement racquet and not suited to higher levels.

By the way, a game improvement racquet is a racquet that produces good results with short to medium length (and speed) strokes. The Graphene Instinct is just that.
 
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I use the LM Instinct racquet and jumped on it cos I'd been looking for something that I could defend on the BH with. My serve has weakened a bit and I often overshoot with the forehand. I find it very comfortable and I always look at flex before choosing a raq.

I tried the MG Extreme (?pro)a while ago and disliked it. Immensely. I guess I don't like APD type frames...

The Speed series has always intrigued me... I want to stop switching frames. Please don't tempt me!
 
forthegame said:
I use the LM Instinct racquet and jumped on it cos I'd been looking for something that I could defend on the BH with. My serve has weakened a bit and I often overshoot with the forehand. I find it very comfortable and I always look at flex before choosing a raq.

I tried the MG Extreme (?pro)a while ago and disliked it. Immensely. I guess I don't like APD type frames...

The Speed series has always intrigued me... I want to stop switching frames. Please don't tempt me!
Click to expand...

ahhhh the liquid metal instinct, now that was a racquet!
I don't want to tempt you, really… Actually… Have you tried the IG Speed 16x19? :twisted:
 
ArliHawk said:
...
The Speed is kind of unique, but more of a player's tween, akin to the Wilson Blade.
Click to expand...
little off...
Wilson did not have Blade model until Djokovic signed a contract with them. Then Wilson copied LM Radical (DJ. ex & favorite frame) and made Blade. When Djokovic returned to the Head, Radical line has already promoted by good player, Andy Murray and radicals are sold well. They decide to create whole new line of rackets... Speed.
 
The TW definition of 'game improvement' follows industry convention and the Instinct does not fit it:

Category 1: Power or Game Improvement Racquets

This is the term used by racquet manufacturers for power-oriented racquets. In most cases, these racquet models feature oversize to super-oversize heads (107-135 square inches), are lightweight (8-9.5 ounces), longer (27-29 inches) stiffer and are balanced head-heavy (or evenly balanced) to retain enough weight in the hitting zone. Designed for players with shorter, slower swings and who want more power from the racquet.
 
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Category 2: ‘Tweener Racquets'

Probably needs revising due to the falling out of fashion of extended length racquets but the Instinct just barely fits into this category.

Of course, these are only the central orienting variables and you could take others into account:

There are several models that offer a blend of features from game improvement and player’s racquets. They are often light-er (9.5-11 ounces), balanced anywhere from slightly head-light to slightly head-heavy, have midplus (95-102 square inches) heads and are usually extended length (27.5-28 inches). These racquet models offer low-medium to medium-high power and are most appealing to intermediate-advanced players, seeking enhanced maneuverability.
 
TheRasha said:
little off...
Wilson did not have Blade model until Djokovic signed a contract with them. Then Wilson copied LM Radical (DJ. ex & favorite frame) and made Blade. When Djokovic returned to the Head, Radical line has already promoted by good player, Andy Murray and radicals are sold well. They decide to create whole new line of rackets... Speed.
Click to expand...

The Blade is nothing like the LM Radical… It's larger, with a thicker beam, much stiffer, etc. I doubt that the Blade was made for Djokovic.
 
SpinToWin said:
The Blade is nothing like the LM Radical… It's larger, with a thicker beam, much stiffer, etc. I doubt that the Blade was made for Djokovic.
Click to expand...
I didn't say that both racquets play simmilar, just say that wilson tried to copy LM Radical and it is deffinitely made for Djokovic. Wilson didn't have frame like that. Maybe that "not Radical" playability is the reason why Djokovic left wilson :). And how is blade larger? Same lenght & head size.
 
TheRasha said:
I didn't say that both racquets play simmilar, just say that wilson tried to copy LM Radical and it is deffinitely made for Djokovic. Wilson didn't have frame like that. Maybe that "not Radical" playability is the reason why Djokovic left wilson :). And how is blade larger? Same lenght & head size.
Click to expand...

The Radical is a real 95" head (at least the old ones were), just like the Prestige.
 
SpinToWin said:
Sharapova's racquet is a customized YouTek Radical Pro, not an Instinct. I cannot think of any pro that uses the new Graphene Instinct because it truly is a game improvement racquet and not suited to higher levels.

By the way, a game improvement racquet is a racquet that produces good results with short to medium length (and speed) strokes. The Graphene Instinct is just that.
Click to expand...

Spin, That's what I thought also. But I can tell you that it is not radical. I sat down with Thomas Högstedt who was behind and involved in Marias change to Head. It is an Instinct. Custom made/customized for her. There were also two custom made Instincts made for one South African girl who is coached by Högstedt. I strung them. And all were the same apart from specs. The mold is 100% sure Instinct.

And by your definition of game improvement racquet my Pure Control Tour is a game improvement racquet. So is My POG mid.
 
Joonas said:
Spin, That's what I thought also. But I can tell you that it is not radical. I sat down with Thomas Högstedt who was behind and involved in Marias change to Head. It is an Instinct. Custom made/customized for her. There were also two custom made Instincts made for one South African girl who is coached by Högstedt. I strung them. And all were the same apart from specs. The mold is 100% sure Instinct.

And by your definition of game improvement racquet my Pure Control Tour is a game improvement racquet. So is My POG mid.
Click to expand...

Look, if you call the Pure Control a game improvement racquet, then you are not exactly a reliable source IMO. Most people on this forum agree that Sharapova is using the YouTek Radical Pro, including vsbabolat, one of the most knowledgeable posters on this forum. Give a Graphene Instinct to a intermediate and give a Pure Control Tour to a intermediate. The intermediate will generally be playing quite well with the Instinct, but playing short with the Pure Control Tour, because it is a player's racquet, with high static weight, relatively high swing weight (for intermediates), low power and a small sweetspot. The Instinct is the opposite.
 
SpinToWin said:
Look, if you call the Pure Control a game improvement racquet, then you are not exactly a reliable source IMO. Most people on this forum agree that Sharapova is using the YouTek Radical Pro, including vsbabolat, one of the most knowledgeable posters on this forum. Give a Graphene Instinct to a intermediate and give a Pure Control Tour to a intermediate. The intermediate will generally be playing quite well with the Instinct, but playing short with the Pure Control Tour, because it is a player's racquet, with high static weight, relatively high swing weight (for intermediates), low power and a small sweetspot. The Instinct is the opposite.
Click to expand...

Sorry guys for going OT.
But once again Spin. I know YT Radical Pro and Marias Instinct is not YT Radical Pro. Shared holes, inclined shape after shaft and before throat and most of all discussion with the guy who worked with Head and Maria with the change. These are facts. Everyone can believe what they want.

Of course an intermediate would not feel comfortable with PCT. But also lot of modern top juniors would not feel comfortable with it either. But they would and do feel very comfortable with Instinct. My point is that if a racquet is lighter, stiffer and has inherent power doesn't make it a game improvement racquet. I don't see Pure Drive as a game improvement racquet either. For me it is wrong racquet sure but I know a lot players way above my level who have chosen Pure Drive. Same applies to Instinct. For example one of our top ITF girl who plays with stock Instinct. Now go and label them as intermediates...

At the end of the day people are free to label racquet classes the way they want. But if some one considers trying out Instinct then go ahead. It is a very nice racquet. And you can be serious player to use one. Maria does- not stock, but Instinct nevertheless.
 
One more OT message,
I just had a look on pictures of Maria and her racquet this year. There are no shared holes so the mold in those picture/tournaments may very well have been Radical.

The one I had in my hand and that we talked about has then probably been tryout for Instinct mold. Made for and tried by her but obviously not she didn't switch to. At least yet.
 
Joonas said:
One more OT message,
I just had a look on pictures of Maria and her racquet this year. There are no shared holes so the mold in those picture/tournaments may very well have been Radical.

The one I had in my hand and that we talked about has then probably been tryout for Instinct mold. Made for and tried by her but obviously not she didn't switch to. At least yet.
Click to expand...

She won't make the switch to the normal Graphene Instinct obviously… The difference is too big. She plays with a racquet with flex in the high 50s. If she was to switch to the Instinct, it will only be the mold and the racquet will have completely different specs, essentially making it a different racquet. The Instinct is quite different to the Pure Drive in some aspects. It has much less access to spin (which makes the Pure Drive controllable for those with the right technique), as its head shape is much more elongated. On the highest level with long and fast strokes, you will be hard pressed to find a Graphene Instinct, for that reason. The instinct cannot be called a tweener since it lacks the access to spin and has a lot of power, hence game improvement (my analysis).
 
A few questions;

How does the Instinct 'lack access to spin'? If you swing it upwards quickly, won't it produce spin?

What does an 'APD' racket mean? What does 'APD' stand for?

Also, if we are ranking Instinct, Extreme and Speed on stiffness (frame flexibility) - how would we order them? And is it a noticeable difference? Because the stats here on Tennis Warehouse show that they are all within a couple points of stiffness from each other, but I just wondered in the 'real world' if that is the case or not?

Thanks
 
peakofthebounce said:
A few questions;

How does the Instinct 'lack access to spin'? If you swing it upwards quickly, won't it produce spin?

What does an 'APD' racket mean? What does 'APD' stand for?

Also, if we are ranking Instinct, Extreme and Speed on stiffness (frame flexibility) - how would we order them? And is it a noticeable difference? Because the stats here on Tennis Warehouse show that they are all within a couple points of stiffness from each other, but I just wondered in the 'real world' if that is the case or not?

Thanks
Click to expand...

The Instinct has a more elongated head in comparison to a PD (Pure Drive) APD (AeroPro Drive) or an Extreme. This makes for a smaller spin window and a denser stringbed of the mains, leading to less spin.

Stiffness: Instinct>Extreme>Speed (Speed is the most flexible).

The stiffness does translate to the court if you consider racquets of the same iteration (Graphene, IG, YouTek), however comparing between iterations is where the confusion begins.
 
SpinToWin said:
The Instinct has a more elongated head in comparison to a PD (Pure Drive) APD (AeroPro Drive) or an Extreme. This makes for a smaller spin window and a denser stringbed of the mains, leading to less spin.

Stiffness: Instinct>Extreme>Speed (Speed is the most flexible).

The stiffness does translate to the court if you consider racquets of the same iteration (Graphene, IG, YouTek), however comparing between iterations is where the confusion begins.
Click to expand...

Thanks, and what about the issue of polarization? How does this affect racket handling/power, and are the Instinct, Extreme or Speed polarized?
 
peakofthebounce said:
Thanks, and what about the issue of polarization? How does this affect racket handling/power, and are the Instinct, Extreme or Speed polarized?
Click to expand...

A polarized racquet at the identical weight of another rather depolarized racquet will have more power and easier access to spin. However, the polarized racquet will be less maneuverable (on a short swing) and feel less solid.

According to Head, the Graphene racquets are polarized. Whether head actually uses Graphene in a way that it alters the racquet's playability is debatable, but I think we can say that the racquets are polarized to some extent, definitely more polarized than the IG predecessors.
 
SpinToWin said:
The Instinct has a more elongated head in comparison to a PD (Pure Drive) APD (AeroPro Drive) or an Extreme. This makes for a smaller spin window and a denser stringbed of the mains, leading to less spin.
Click to expand...

The new Instincts have the most open 16 x 19 drill patterns I've ever seen. The APD, PD and Extremes are clearly denser patterns in the hitting zone.
 
peakofthebounce said:
So which is the most polarized out of Instinct, Extreme and Speed?
Click to expand...

I wouldn't know… I'd need professional equipment and a sample size of all racquets in order to measure the relative weight of the racquets at a specific location… Right now I can at most look at the ratio of swingweight to static weight to make a judgement on that (inaccurate calculation/estmate).

Swingweight : Static Mass

Graphene Instinct MP (3 pts HL, 312g) = 0.99359

Graphene Speed MP (3 pts HL, 312g) = 1.02564

IG Extreme MP 2.0 (1 pts HL, 326g) = 1.02147


The only racquets that can be compared are the Speed and the Instinct (due to equal balance and static weight) and you can see that the Speed obviously is more polarized than the Instinct. We cannot comment on the Extreme as it is (head) heavier.
 
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hmmm, according to the Head website, the rackets I mentioned in OP are all 1 pt. headlight.

And why do most say that the Instinct is the most powerful, if it is the least polarized, yet has identical static weight and balance?

If Tennis Warehouse stats are wrong vs Head's official stats regarding balance, then does that make the Extreme MP 2.0 the most polarized?

Would most people say that the Extreme is less polarized than the Speed? I thought that was the case.
 
peakofthebounce said:
hmmm, according to the Head website, the rackets I mentioned in OP are all 1 pt. headlight.

And why do most say that the Instinct is the most powerful, if it is the least polarized, yet has identical static weight and balance?

If Tennis Warehouse stats are wrong vs Head's official stats regarding balance, then does that make the Extreme MP 2.0 the most polarized?

Would most people say that the Extreme is less polarized than the Speed? I thought that was the case.
Click to expand...

The Extreme is less polarized I'd say, but that is impossible to know for sure without sophisticated equipment (which we frankly do not have)…

Also, power level cannot be derived from only mass (distribution). Far more important factors are the flex (location), the beam width, etc.

Tennis Warehouse's stats are correct. They calculate their values from a large sample size.

In general, I would say that specs are a nice guideline to see if you might like a racquet, but that user feedback is much more revealing as there are so many variables that determine a racquets playability (which we do not know of) that it is impossible to infer anything based on specs alone.
 
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SpinToWin said:
The Extreme is less polarized I'd say, but that is impossible to know for sure without sophisticated equipment (which we frankly do not have)…

Also, power level cannot be derived from only mass (distribution). Far more important factors are the (flex location), the beam width, etc.

Tennis Warehouse's stats are correct. They calculate their values from a large sample size.

In general, I would say that specs are a nice guideline to see if you might like a racquet, but that user feedback is much more revealing as there are so many variables that determine a racquets playability (which we do not know of) that it is impossible to infer anything based on specs alone.
Click to expand...

Hmm, so the Instinct, according to the tennis warehouse stats (which you just said are accurate) is only a point or two stiffer than the Extreme or Speed, has the thinnest beam, is the least polarized, is identical in overall static weight and balance, and is still the most powerful? That extra point in stiffness really made all the difference?

A point in stiffness is surely not that much, seeing as there are some Prince rackets that are around 20 points lower in stiffness than the Heads.
 
peakofthebounce said:
Hmm, so the Instinct, according to the tennis warehouse stats (which you just said are accurate) is only a point or two stiffer than the Extreme or Speed, has the thinnest beam, is the least polarized, is identical in overall static weight and balance, and is still the most powerful? That extra point in stiffness really made all the difference?

A point in stiffness is surely not that much, seeing as there are some Prince rackets that are around 20 points lower in stiffness than the Heads.
Click to expand...

I said etc. because there are so many factors I cannot list them. For example, racquets are made for the largest part out of graphite and the orientation and density of graphite in the racquet is one of the largest factors for determining a racquet's playability (something we have no data of). Flex/stiffness is a vague term. It only measures the average flex in the throat. However, flex location is very important (by the way, the Speed has the thinnest beam). A racquet does not necessarily play like its specs. I can only comment on my experience that the Instinct has the most power and the Speed the least. Why that is so I cannot fathom and nobody (other than the engineers) can quite frankly.
 
SpinToWin said:
I said etc. because there are so many factors I cannot list them. For example, racquets are made for the largest part out of graphite and the orientation and density of graphite in the racquet is one of the largest factors for determining a racquet's playability (something we have no data of). Flex/stiffness is a vague term. It only measures the average flex in the throat. However, flex location is very important (by the way, the Speed has the thinnest beam). A racquet does not necessarily play like its specs. I can only comment on my experience that the Instinct has the most power and the Speed the least. Why that is so I cannot fathom and nobody (other than the engineers) can quite frankly.
Click to expand...
Excellent point - the engineers really do know what they're up to - racquets do not play necessarily like their published specs, because of the factors you mentioned that are not published.
 
Head Instinct MP Vs BPD

so do you guys think the Head Graph Instinct MP is really similar to the BPD?? I've used the BPD for years, and need a bit more power..this seems to be a good racquet.
 
jmh said:
so do you guys think the Head Graph Instinct MP is really similar to the BPD?? I've used the BPD for years, and need a bit more power..this seems to be a good racquet.
Click to expand...

get a more powerful string… Much cheaper than getting a whole new racquet
 
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