Anyone heard of this coach...

[4okana]

Hi, I just wanted to find out if anyone heard of Steve McAvoy? He coached, apparently, some top juniors and pros.

I went to him w/my child about a month ago and he wants to rearrange the ground strokes to be mostly top spin versus more on the flatter side that it is now. I've been to other top reputable LA coaches who liked the current strokes and never wanted to dismantle it.

So I am kind of confused about this whole issue of hitting mostly top spin and who to trust.

Any advice?

Thank you.

 

[ClarkC]

Some players need to add more spin to their strokes, others need to flatten out their strokes. Without seeing a particular player, I could not generalize about which is a better idea.

I do not know this particular coach.

 

[Tennishacker]

Hi, I just wanted to find out if anyone heard of Steve McAvoy? He coached, apparently, some top juniors and pros.

I went to him w/my child about a month ago and he wants to rearrange the ground strokes to be mostly top spin versus more on the flatter side that it is now. I've been to other top reputable LA coaches who liked the current strokes and never wanted to dismantle it.

So I am kind of confused about this whole issue of hitting mostly top spin and who to trust.

Any advice?

Thank you.

Both are effective, but really depends on your child's personality and physical size.
Big strong kids can hit both, slight size kids are better off hitting spin. Aggressive kids play better hitting flat, passive kids do better with spin.

Just my opionon...

 

[Lakers4Life]

Check out John Letts and Brian Teacher at the Arroyo Seco Tennis Center in South Pasadena. Brian is featured on Tennis Channel Academy from time to time and John is a former Stanford player, who really knows the game.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

Both are effective, but really depends on your child's personality and physical size.
Big strong kids can hit both, slight size kids are better off hitting spin. Aggressive kids play better hitting flat, passive kids do better with spin.

Just my opionon...

Buddy....you need to stop saying this. You have it 100% reversed.

In order to be effective, topspin must be done by a powerful player. Top spin without power is the worst possible thing, the balls sit up and get blasted back. This is very common knowledge among pretty much everyone in tennis. A smaller player, especially girls, need a flatter stroke to penetrate the court. The WTA is a much flatter game than the ATP.

Somehow you got things confused in your mind. No offense, it happens.

 

[Tennishacker]

Buddy....you need to stop saying this. You have it 100% reversed.

In order to be effective, topspin must be done by a powerful player. Top spin without power is the worst possible thing, the balls sit up and get blasted back. This is very common knowledge among pretty much everyone in tennis. A smaller player, especially girls, need a flatter stroke to penetrate the court. The WTA is a much flatter game than the ATP.

Somehow you got things confused in your mind. No offense, it happens.

I'm speaking from observing girls tennis for the past 10 years. You may be right in theory, but reality is different.

Young boys and girls (age 8-10), learn to hit with a western to extreme western grip because it allows them to hit the balls on the rise instead of running back to hit the shot in their strike zone. Especially now with the super light racquects, it allows them to just windsheild their strokes.
Watch these young kids hit, they usually stand inside the baseline, some almost stand near the service line. How are they able to rally, by using a western grip brushing up on the ball. (topspin)

I think that's one of the problems with junior tennis is that there is too many kids playing with western to extreme western grips, just brushing up on the ball. These strokes work well in junior tennis, but will fail them once they get older and play someone who drives the ball. (flat hitter)
Another problem with the western grip is that you can't hit low balls, and makes the transition to volley grips difficult. Notice how kids with western grips cannot hit volleys correctly.

My kids hit a flat ball, they lost alot of matches when they were young, but now play D1 tennis.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

I'm speaking from observing girls tennis for the past 10 years. You may be right in theory, but reality is different.

Young boys and girls (age 8-10), learn to hit with a western to extreme western grip because it allows them to hit the balls on the rise instead of running back to hit the shot in their strike zone. Especially now with the super light racquects, it allows them to just windsheild their strokes.
Watch these young kids hit, they usually stand inside the baseline, some almost stand near the service line. How are they able to rally, by using a western grip brushing up on the ball. (topspin)

I think that's one of the problems with junior tennis is that there is too many kids playing with western to extreme western grips, just brushing up on the ball. These strokes work well in junior tennis, but will fail them once they get older and play someone who drives the ball. (flat hitter)
Another problem with the western grip is that you can't hit low balls, and makes the transition to volley grips difficult. Notice how kids with western grips cannot hit volleys correctly.

My kids hit a flat ball, they lost alot of matches when they were young, but now play D1 tennis.

You changed the entire point. You advised smaller players to hit western and that is the opposite of what they should do. The point is that a smaller player needs to stay away from western while a stronger player can do great with western.

Any coach that allows a young kid to learn with a western grip is an idiot.

 

[Tennishacker]

You changed the entire point. You advised smaller players to hit western and that is the opposite of what they should do. The point is that a smaller player needs to stay away from western while a stronger player can do great with western.

Any coach that allows a young kid to learn with a western grip is an idiot.

I don't disagree with you, but its reality.

 

[willshot]

You can still control your spin and flatten shots out using a western grip. I would still prefer semiwestern though. Strength is one thing but its more in the racquet head speed while hitting the ball. There are 11 yearold boys out there with western grips can can outright punish the ball with spin using a western.

Also it all depends on the style of game you have. Not everyone can play the same way. Everyone is built different and some are faster than others. If your girl is small but fast, a properly hit western grip is not a bad choice if done right.

 

[SoCal10s]

Check out John Letts and Brian Teacher at the Arroyo Seco Tennis Center in South Pasadena. Brian is featured on Tennis Channel Academy from time to time and John is a former Stanford player, who really knows the game.

hahaha ... you're making me laugh..

 

[Power Player]

You guys are right about western. I used a western as a junior and it really killed me until I finally fixed my grips. I could not volley well at all. It is much better to know the Semi Western and continental. The SW allows you to drive the ball flat or with spin, and you can get to the conti real easily for volleys.

 

[10istalent]

Was advised at the Oranage Bowl by a well respected coach who was observing....if goal for daughter was to play college keep the flat ball, if it was pro she had better get that Nadal spin. For whatever that is worth.....

 

[SoCal10s]

Was advised at the Oranage Bowl by a well respected coach who was observing....if goal for daughter was to play college keep the flat ball, if it was pro she had better get that Nadal spin. For whatever that is worth.....

last year they were saying girls need to hit more flat,down the line and now it's spin like Nadal.. this BS is starting to be like "Golf Channel" where every "respected coach of the week" says the complete opposite from the previous guy..

 

[Tennishacker]

hahaha ... you're making me laugh..

What are their reputation as teaching pros?

 

[rptennis]

Hi,

Here is one guy's opinion - you need to learn how to hit with spin PROPERLY and that is the fundamental behind the modern rally ball. In tennis, you have to learn how to rally with deep topspin balls and be able to hit it to both wings of your opponent. You also need to learn how to PROPERLY flatten out the balls when you have your opportunity to go on the offensive.

The key here is the word PROPERLY. This takes proper footwork to the ball, body position when rotating to the contact point, racket path/head position to the ball, follow through and balance after the shot. This will takes years and lots of drills (including hand fed balls) to perfect.

In the past (the era when I grew up with wooden racket), you can actually rally with flat strokes and go edge to edge. The modern game with the new poly strings, calls for heavy, powerful spin as your rally ball and you follow through with the racket moving in a "windshield wiper" motion. If you go flat for your rally ball, you will be hit off the court (unless you move exceptionally well like A Murray).

 

[4okana]

last year they were saying girls need to hit more flat,down the line and now it's spin like Nadal.. this BS is starting to be like "Golf Channel" where every "respected coach of the week" says the complete opposite from the previous guy..

Ok, so what's your opinion?

 

[Tennishacker]

Hi,

Here is one guy's opinion - you need to learn how to hit with spin PROPERLY and that is the fundamental behind the modern rally ball. In tennis, you have to learn how to rally with deep topspin balls and be able to hit it to both wings of your opponent. You also need to learn how to PROPERLY flatten out the balls when you have your opportunity to go on the offensive.

The key here is the word PROPERLY. This takes proper footwork to the ball, body position when rotating to the contact point, racket path/head position to the ball, follow through and balance after the shot. This will takes years and lots of drills (including hand fed balls) to perfect.

In the past (the era when I grew up with wooden racket), you can actually rally with flat strokes and go edge to edge. The modern game with the new poly strings, calls for heavy, powerful spin as your rally ball and you follow through with the racket moving in a "windshield wiper" motion. If you go flat for your rally ball, you will be hit off the court (unless you move exceptionally well like A Murray).

I agree somewhat, its very difficult to develop strokes where you can hit a heavy spin and also hit flat. I think you have to choose one or the other.

 

[SoCal10s]

Ok, so what's your opinion?

ok here's my BS.. learn everything and try to use it.. sounds impossible ,not really..
you should learn how to hit flat line drive to high loopy topspin and everything in between .. slice,and power shots and touch finesse shots.... then as you get more into it ,your tennis personality will take shape ,and thing keep changing and you need to change with the change... but everything goes back to 3 basic concept :
1. playing defense ..
2.staying your ground
3.playing offense

 

[rptennis]

Hey Tennishacker,

Fair enough and I think for the most part, you are right. To develop both strokes, you have to have proper instruction from the beginning and you have to go through years of drills to perfect both strokes. Most kids will not have this opportunity and will not have the right coach to teach the right fundamentals. But if the kid is lucky enough to get the proper instruction, he/she will play at a very high level when the kid gets to age 16 and beyond. You will need both strokes to play proper strategic and offensive tennis to win points (a la Nadal),

Sadly, I am in agreement with you

 

[rptennis]

SoCal10s,

No BS there buddy - you laid out a perfect blueprint on how to play tennis the right way

But it is harder to do than to say it

 

[SoCal10s]

SoCal10s,

No BS there buddy - you laid out a perfect blueprint on how to play tennis the right way

But it is harder to do than to say it

it's all in the hard work you do.. and how you open up your mind to accept things..

 

[rptennis]

Perfectly said

 

[Tennishacker]

Hi,

Here is one guy's opinion - you need to learn how to hit with spin PROPERLY and that is the fundamental behind the modern rally ball. In tennis, you have to learn how to rally with deep topspin balls and be able to hit it to both wings of your opponent. You also need to learn how to PROPERLY flatten out the balls when you have your opportunity to go on the offensive.

The key here is the word PROPERLY. This takes proper footwork to the ball, body position when rotating to the contact point, racket path/head position to the ball, follow through and balance after the shot. This will takes years and lots of drills (including hand fed balls) to perfect.

In the past (the era when I grew up with wooden racket), you can actually rally with flat strokes and go edge to edge. The modern game with the new poly strings, calls for heavy, powerful spin as your rally ball and you follow through with the racket moving in a "windshield wiper" motion. If you go flat for your rally ball, you will be hit off the court (unless you move exceptionally well like A Murray).

Sounds like you teach at the highest level. To develop a junior with that kind of strokes requires alot of talent, hard work, great coaching and time.

 

[Lakers4Life]

To put it bluntly all tennis coaches or instructors want to coach the next superstar. It's funny when I watch my friend's daughter's matches and a Coach will walk up to my friend and ask if they can coach her. Some coaches know what it takes to get a scholarship to a D1 and others don't have a clue. That's the more realistic goal for most Juniors. I've met some Juniors who are home schooled who think they are good enough to turn pro, but in reality they are far from it.

The bottomline with most coaches, is money.

 

[smucker007]

The bottomline with most coaches, is money.

Sad but true..MOST coaches anyways. As long as they have their student's best interest at heart and not money first. They gotta make a living too.

4okana, I haven't hard of Steve McAvoy before..where does he coach out of? I've met Andy from Whittier Narrows and he's a good guy..Played at Cal Poly in the 90s..seems to know his stuff..Barry Friedman from Claremont Club is also a great coach. There are lots of great coaches out there..but try them out..not everyone will "fit" your daughter. As for changing her strokes, I think its a good idea for her to learn both flat as well as top spin. If she has a reliable flat shot, maybe learn the top spin and she can use both to add variety to her game. I always teach my students to use top spin rally shots and also teach them to flatten them out when attacking a short ball.

 

[BMC9670]

One piece of info missing is the age of the student and how long they have been playing. A post a while back mentioned the "correct" way to hit rather than emphasis on grip and I agree that the mechanics of the stroke and swing path have as much to do with hitting flat/spin as the grip. I'm a proponent of starting a younger child out with eastern/strong eastern and moving them to SW as they progress, emphasizing footwork, set up, turn/rotation, swing path and follow through. I think learning to hit flat and/or topspin is easier and more natural this way and they can tinker with it when they are more accomplished. But, again, we don't know where the OP's kid is in the process.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

You can still control your spin and flatten shots out using a western grip. I would still prefer semiwestern though. Strength is one thing but its more in the racquet head speed while hitting the ball. There are 11 yearold boys out there with western grips can can outright punish the ball with spin using a western.

Also it all depends on the style of game you have. Not everyone can play the same way. Everyone is built different and some are faster than others. If your girl is small but fast, a properly hit western grip is not a bad choice if done right.

Lets get back to the actual discussion. A poster mistakenly reversed things and said ALL small players are better off hitting western while all larger players were better off using semi western.

This is the OPPOSITE of the truth. That is the discussion, not exceptions.

And yes, we definitely allow talented 11 year old boys to try western. Rich Macci and others do this all the time.

Why? Because we are building a game for long term. By age 9-10 we look at the parents body structure, we look at siblings, we look at the boys. The boys that we think are destined to be bigger and stronger, we allow to try western sooner. We observe how they hit with semi western and western.

But be aware, many 11 year olds that "punish" the ball with western flat line at 16-18. Those spinny shots end up sitting up for the bigger kids. That happens to girls all the time....they win with spin in the young juniors and get demolished as they age because they can not generate enough spin to be effective. Its a long term thing....you have to balance spin vs court penetration and adjust as the kids age.

But back to the original point.....saying smaller players are BETTER OFF using western is the opposite of the facts.

 

[Lakers4Life]

Sad but true..MOST coaches anyways. As long as they have their student's best interest at heart and not money first. They gotta make a living too.

4okana, I haven't hard of Steve McAvoy before..where does he coach out of? I've met Andy from Whittier Narrows and he's a good guy..Played at Cal Poly in the 90s..seems to know his stuff..Barry Friedman from Claremont Club is also a great coach. There are lots of great coaches out there..but try them out..not everyone will "fit" your daughter. As for changing her strokes, I think its a good idea for her to learn both flat as well as top spin. If she has a reliable flat shot, maybe learn the top spin and she can use both to add variety to her game. I always teach my students to use top spin rally shots and also teach them to flatten them out when attacking a short ball.

I know the coach gotta make a living too, but I there is a level to which a each coach can teach any given student. Just like there are tournament levels in Juniors.

I agree you need to mix it up and try a coach out before you settle on one. Many times it's a convience of have them available to teach. There are also many clinics, like at Whittier Narrows for instance on Wednesday evenings.

BTW, I think I know the Andy you are talking about.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

Was advised at the Oranage Bowl by a well respected coach who was observing....if goal for daughter was to play college keep the flat ball, if it was pro she had better get that Nadal spin. For whatever that is worth.....

He was right but probably using hyperbole. No female can generate Nadal spin nor do what he does with the western grip. Few can pull off effective strokes using the Nadal like finish either!

The coach was speaking more about spin than grips. Sure, at the pro level, all the women use top spin to keep the balls in with pace. That said, the women's game is a more flat and penetrating game than the pro men's game.

As the girls get older, they certainly should develop more and more spin. Its a balancing act, the right combination of spin and court penetration.

 

[smucker007]

4okana, it really depends on how your daughter plays. If she can generate a lot of power on her flat shots now, then its a good to incorporate the topspin into her game. If she doesn't hit her flat shots with power and depth, then don't. I know a woman who hits extremely flat, but she has excellent footwork and strokes and paints the baseline all the time. Everyone has their own style, just need your daughter to find hers. Its never bad to learn a different stroke and see what she prefers.

@laker, where do you play out of? I only met Andy around sept of last year..but he is a very solid player and a really nice guy. He's the head coach at Whittier Narrows.

 

[Tennishacker]

4okana, it really depends on how your daughter plays. If she can generate a lot of power on her flat shots now, then its a good to incorporate the topspin into her game. If she doesn't hit her flat shots with power and depth, then don't. I know a woman who hits extremely flat, but she has excellent footwork and strokes and paints the baseline all the time. Everyone has their own style, just need your daughter to find hers. Its never bad to learn a different stroke and see what she prefers.

@laker, where do you play out of? I only met Andy around sept of last year..but he is a very solid player and a really nice guy. He's the head coach at Whittier Narrows.

That funny, someone mentioned John Letts here, who had the contract there many years ago. Doesn't the Hance's have that contract now?

 

[smucker007]

Letts is still involved with Whittier Narrows as far as I know. Seen him in the office/pro-shop/shack here and there. Though I don't go to WN that much.

 

[SoCal10s]

That funny, someone mentioned John Letts here, who had the contract there many years ago. Doesn't the Hance's have that contract now?

I think Letts has the contract for tons of places in SoCal area.. he's becoming the McDs of tennis .. he has so many of the courts tied up and his crew teaching and charging outrageous prices from coaches who hasn't proven themselves .. I haven't heard or seen any of their students with a high ranking.. but Letts charges $100 per hour..

 

[4okana]

Ok, here's the stats on my girl:

She's 11, very strong and powerful and hits a strong, deep, flatter ball (Lansdorp liked it). She won't be tall - probably between 5'6" or 5'7". She is a one handed backhander but this coach thinks she should go back to 2 hander or she will have problems on serve return when playing bigger/taller players.

He thinks she needs to play more of a man's game (hence more of a heavy top spin ball) to be more successful in the future.

Steve McAvoy teaches out of Calabasas and I think Valencia.

 

[Lakers4Life]

@laker, where do you play out of? I only met Andy around sept of last year..but he is a very solid player and a really nice guy. He's the head coach at Whittier Narrows.

I met Andy a long time ago from Cal Poly. Then we met again a few years ago during a round robin at WN. I see him there once in a while, when I drop by.

 

[smucker007]

u went to cal poly too?

@4okana I don't know much about your area...one of the top high school women's player in my area is only 5' so 5'6 isn't going to be too bad. 2h are great on returns. The game does seem to be going towards a heavy top spin game..especially the juniors. I like to see kids with all around games..even serve and volley so they have an option to screw with their opponents and put pressure on them.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

Ok, here's the stats on my girl:

She's 11, very strong and powerful and hits a strong, deep, flatter ball (Lansdorp liked it). She won't be tall - probably between 5'6" or 5'7". She is a one handed backhander but this coach thinks she should go back to 2 hander or she will have problems on serve return when playing bigger/taller players.

He thinks she needs to play more of a man's game (hence more of a heavy top spin ball) to be more successful in the future.

Steve McAvoy teaches out of Calabasas and I think Valencia.

Sure, adding top spin is fine as long as she does not lose her penetration. Just be very careful, playing "more of a man's game" can be the kiss of death when the average male player is 6'1" and 180 lbs. and your girl may be 5'6" 115 lbs. If she has spin but loses penetration her forehand could sit up there for the bigger girls to smack.

 

[smucker007]

Don't underestimate the juniors out there now.. I know a 13yr old girl less then 5' extreme western hits harder than my 4.0 friends..has huge topspin and good penetration. Some can do it..some can't. A little spin can never hurt. Penetration is good but if they hit so flat that either it goes into the net or goes out..doesn't do her any good.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

Don't underestimate the juniors out there now.. I know a 13yr old girl less then 5' extreme western hits harder than my 4.0 friends..has huge topspin and good penetration. Some can do it..some can't. A little spin can never hurt. Penetration is good but if they hit so flat that either it goes into the net or goes out..doesn't do her any good.

All of us know girls who can hit it well that way in juniors. Rick Macci and others will tell you....most dead end someday because of it.

Don't be fooled my what happens at age 13. Also....we are taking flatter...not flat. Every ball has spin to some degree, even girls who hit 'flatter' penetrating balls are generating spin. Its a balancing act.