travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
I think he was saying that you haven’t amputated from the knee yet, so suck it up and play 4.5.
Appeal down due to knee replacement
- Thread starter Injured Again
- Start date
schmke
Legend
So, there actually is an auto-appeal, but the "auto" isn't a given, there are criteria to be met.
Here are the relevant sections from the 2023 regulations:
2.05E(1) Any player who is 60 to 64 years of age or older prior to, or during, the calendar year in which
such player plays his or her first local league match and has achieved the same rating level or lower for
his or her three most recent year-end ratings, without benefit of an age-related appeal of the player’s
year-end rating level, if promoted will automatically be granted an appeal (A rating) of their current rating
back to their previous valid year-end rating level, subject to 2.05E(5) below. NTRP Dynamic
Disqualification procedures as outlined in 2.04B(3) apply.
2.05E(2) Any player who is 65 to 69 years of age and has not been granted an age-related appeal of their
year-end rating level in the last three years, if promoted, will automatically be granted an appeal (A rating)
of their current rating back to their previous valid year-end rating level, subject to 2.05E(5) below. NTRP
Dynamic Disqualification procedures as outlined in 2.04B(3) apply.
2.05E(3) Any player who is 70 to 79 years of age and has not been granted an age-related appeal of their
year-end rating level in the last three years, will automatically be granted an appeal (A rating) of their
current rating to the next lower level, subject to 2.05E(5) below. NTRP Dynamic Disqualification procedures
as outlined in 2.04B(3) apply.
2.05E(4) Any player who is age 80 or older and has not been granted an age-related appeal of their
year-end rating level in the last five years, will automatically be granted an appeal (A rating) of their current
rating to the next lower level. NTRP Dynamic Disqualification procedures as outlined in 2.04B(3) apply.
2.05E(5) Any player who is clearly above level under the applicable Computer Methodology procedures, as
defined in the Glossary, will be denied an appeal of his or her year-end rating under 2.05E(1), 2.05E(2) and
2.05E(3).
The criteria to be met changes slightly depending on the age, and in all cases players cannot be "clearly above".
Oddly the 2024 regulations doesn't have 2.05E at all, but instead has this:
2.05E(1)–(5) that described the eligibility criteria for players 60 and older to
appeal their rating down have been removed from the 2024 USTA League
Regulations. The opportunity for these players to appeal their rating has not changed.
The player can appeal their rating with a few clicks, and will receive an immediate
answer, based on the criteria programmed into TennisLink. As such, the specific
criteria are not needed in these regulations.
I read that to say the same criteria is still used, they just aren't documenting it. I'm guessing the USTA got too many questions and wanted to simplify it, go click appeal, and what happens happens, no documented rules to nitpick?
Injured Again
Hall of Fame
schmke
Legend
Yeah, in most cases it allows for an auto-appeal down if one gets bumped up, until one gets to 70, then it seems appeal downs become possible.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
You can tell the league coordinator that you know me, and then she’ll ask me what I think about your situation (she has asked me for intel about 4.5 players before when there were questions about level).
NumbersGuy
Semi-Pro
The USTA's logic is this. You've been playing on a bum knee for a while, which has no doubt hampered your play, yet you've still earned a 4.5 rating so are by definition playing at a 4.5 level. Maybe not a Nationals-level 4.5, yet 4.5 nonetheless. If you are like virtually every other TKR veteran on this board, including me, your level of play will actually get better than it was before the TKR within a few months. Maybe 6, maybe 12, depending on how diligently and aggressively you push the rehab more than any other factor. The USTA does not have a "temporary, while rehabbing" rating to offer. Just play tennis and enjoy your new knee, and stop worrying about how you could win more if you were at a lower level. Go ahead and try the appeal since there's no charge, but your chances are slim to none.
atatu
Legend
Just out of curiousity do you feel like your level got better after a TKR ? I keep hearing different things, one group says they improved and can move so much better now, the other group says they can never get back to where they were prior to the TKR, I'd really like to hear what your experience has been like.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Every person I know who got TKR was worse level after recovery than they were before. But that’s because even if the knee was slightly improved, the surgery happened when they were age 60-something, and everyone in their 60s is rapidly declining in level anyway. Father Time is merciless.
NumbersGuy
Semi-Pro
Before the TKRs (plural), my play had deteriorated largely because bending my knees to properly get down to the ball was painful. Plus, it limited the amount of practice and play that I could tolerate. Those restrictions are gone now and I feel my play has improved from at least the last couple of years pre-TKR. In my experience and from talking with many other TKR veterans, the difference is 90% in the rehab. In my conversations with vets who had poor outcomes, they almost all hemmed and hawed when I asked them how aggressively they pushed the rehab. Those with great outcomes, they rehabbed as I did. And it's notlike you have to rehab all day, mine was 2 hours every other day but working it like a beast and then spending a day and a half on the couch with ice bags.
In other words, low correlation with the quality of any competent surgeon or any other factor, and very high correlation with the rehab. The physical therapist is key. You'll know you have a good one when the first question she asks you is, what are your goals? Some just want to be able to get out of the chair without pain; I told her I wanted to compete for a tennis national championship. I could see in the rehab room that what she put me through was way different from what the others were getting.
In other words, low correlation with the quality of any competent surgeon or any other factor, and very high correlation with the rehab. The physical therapist is key. You'll know you have a good one when the first question she asks you is, what are your goals? Some just want to be able to get out of the chair without pain; I told her I wanted to compete for a tennis national championship. I could see in the rehab room that what she put me through was way different from what the others were getting.
recreationalplayer
Semi-Pro
As a 67yr old who had a total knee replacement just over a year ago and a revision/corrective surgery just over two weeks ago on the same knee, after knee replacement it is never "the same" or "as good as new." And if the other goes out, forget about it. IMO, USTA has little interest in individual members, they are about themselves.
Mongolmike
Hall of Fame
Can't agree with everything you wrote more strongly. Rehab is CRITICAL. It sucks, it hurts, it is uncomfortable, but you have to endure and push if you want a successful outcome. I've said before, push til it hurts, then push just a tiny bit more for 2 or 3 seconds.
And I too know many tkr patients who still limp, or still have pain. Guess what. They are the idiots who were back on the court in 8 weeks bragging that they had a tkr and they are back on the court in 8 weeks. Or when you talk in detail about their rehab, they got many reasons why they didn't follow thru.
Recovering range of motion is so important. Strength will come, but you have to hurt to get the range back. Sucks, but true.
schmke
Legend
It is interesting how the USTA seems to be fairly strict regarding appeals down for medical reasons, presumably in an effort to maintain a fair playing field and not have players recover and end up clearly out of level. But as has been noted many times and currently on the thread about Utah teams, they continue to have rules in place that allow new players to be out of level pretty easily.
I think they are so desperate to have a flow of new players that they don't want to have any barriers to new players joining. Correspondingly, while I don't think it is fair to say they don't care about existing players, they seemingly don't fear that they will leave, or figure they may leave for other physical/medical or other reasons soon anyway so the loss is not as significant as not getting a new younger player.
I think they are so desperate to have a flow of new players that they don't want to have any barriers to new players joining. Correspondingly, while I don't think it is fair to say they don't care about existing players, they seemingly don't fear that they will leave, or figure they may leave for other physical/medical or other reasons soon anyway so the loss is not as significant as not getting a new younger player.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
As a doctor who's dealt with hundreds of disability claims, I can tell you with absolute certainty that there are almost as many people with illegitimate claims to disability as there are legitimate. I suspect USTA has had the same problem. Too many people pulling the medical card to get an advantage. They know that simply playing will reveal all in the end.
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
Why do people get a TKR if they think the knee is going to be worse after surgery? The expectation is that they will feel better and at the very least have less pain and stiffness to deal with especially when they do vigorous activities. Of course, there is a post-surgery recovery and rehab period where things are expected to be worse, but that is not expected to last a year. So, why would USTA grant a medical appeal to someone based on them having a TKR? The patient should not play when they are rehabbing their knee in the first few months and then their level might be better or about the same would be the USTA’s expectation.
Guys here complain that the USTA is not strict enough with monitoring ratings and then when it comes to their own case, they want them to be lenient. Post 56 says it all.
Guys here complain that the USTA is not strict enough with monitoring ratings and then when it comes to their own case, they want them to be lenient. Post 56 says it all.
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ace18
Professional
@Injured Again Sorry for my delay in following up on your recovery. Ive been traveling and broke a finger in my tennis hand last week and trying to type is a pain. I'm 58 but had been a 4.5 for a long time. Due to my knee issues over the last 5 years, I stopped playing 4.5 because I got tired of playing 5.0 guys that managed their rating at 4.5. I sat out usta for 3 years so I no longer had a rating and didn't play at all for the last 2 years of the sit out. This past summer I self-rated 4.0 which put me immediately at 4.5. I appealed using multiple knee surgeries, age, and TKR to get bumped to 4.0. They granted my appeal, I was shocked. So, there is hope for you.
Injured Again
Hall of Fame
Tennis is one (but a big) part of life. The other is just comfort in all the everyday things where you use your knees. In my case, even though I could still (painfully) get around the court and be competitive, my wife and I are avid hikers and I was limited in doing that. My left knee started hurting two years ago during a multi-week hiking trip to Colorado and has deteriorated since. I have managed to painfully make it through many hikes since then, but hurting for five to eight hours on a hike is a different story than hurting for 90 minutes playing singles. So even if the new knee isn't as good playing tennis, it will be better hiking and that's a worthwhile trade to me. And that's not even counting walking around the house, getting in and out of cars, and the rest of our lives away from sport.
I'm as stupid and stubborn as they come, and have played through numerous painful injuries. But even my level of stupidity is enough to know that I'm not jeopardizing my knee to go all out in tennis competition for the first year, and it seems the USTA could easily enough accommodate that. I don't know how the rating and appeals process works, but it should be easy enough for the USTA to approve my appeal but put me down at 3.99 instead of where ever a rating typically goes with a downward appeal. That way, if I win a match or two, I'm back up to my prior level and I have minimal leeway to game the ratings. I just don't see why this is so hard, especially for someone past age 60.
Injured Again
Hall of Fame
Ouch! Hope your finger heals quickly and you hit a glorious shot when you hurt it!
Did you work your way back up to 4.5? How much (and what type) of tennis are you playing now?
ace18
Professional
@Injured Again Haha, i broke my finger walking my dogs! There was a dog owner walking his dog unleashed and my 2 Great Pyrenees decided they wanted to see the dog and the leash got wrapped around my finger.
I actually just started playing USTA again this summer. I'm 2-1 at 4.0 40 and over and 0-1 at 4.0 18 and over. My movement is the biggest part of my game that's been impacted. My shots are pretty good, just struggle getting to the ball. I cannot back up to hit overheads or chase lobs or drop shots. I used to do all of that successfully.
Injured Again
Hall of Fame
I had a friend who went on a ski trip to Whistler, BC. He’s an avid and good skier, but came home with his leg in a cast. I said I hope it was a glorious mogul run, that you tried a double somersault with a triple twist, and that you ALMOST landed it!
He said “Nope. I had just gotten there and was carrying the last of my stuff into the cabin when a dog ran by and startled me, and I fell on the stairs and broke my ankle.“
I also got the absolute best gift for Christmas from my daughter! We took care of her dog for a year when she was working 80 hours a week. I was telling her that I probably picked up a thousand poops from that lovable little guy, and so she got me this:
2024 Pooping Pooches Dog Calendar, White Elephant Gag Gift Exchange Yankee Swap
Shop japa0003's closet or find the perfect look from millions of stylists. Fast shipping and buyer protection. 2024 Pooping Pooches Dog Calendar, White Elephant Gag Gift Exchange Yankee Swap. Condition is New. Shipped with USPS Media Mail.
poshmark.com
We all laughed so hard we went through a whole box of tissues from the tears. All of our family love that dog as if he were our own blood!
Uhh, I guess this is a tennis forum!
Since I hurt my knee, I can’t shuffle backwards or really run more than a couple of steps either. So both lobs and drop shots are deadly. But you’re doing great and a perfect example of why an appeal down makes sense for a TKR.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
usta should just come out with a chart:
Bionic knee: -0.25 ntrp
Bionic hip: -0.5 ntrp
Amputated foot: -1.0 ntrp
Paralysis waist down: -1.5 ntrp
And so on…
Bionic knee: -0.25 ntrp
Bionic hip: -0.5 ntrp
Amputated foot: -1.0 ntrp
Paralysis waist down: -1.5 ntrp
And so on…
jhick
Hall of Fame
Tell Andy Murray that his ntrp went down -0.5 because of his bionic hip.
Bottom 2 categories would put you into wheelchair tennis.
HAHA, true for Murray!
The problem for the USTA granting ntrp move downs for joint replacement patients is that for some the bump becomes temporary, with recovery to their previous level before end of season. Some never recover their previous playing level ever. The USTA can't gauge who will and who won't come back to the previous level, so as far as I can tell they deny most all these requests.
Being a bilateral TKR recipient it makes sense to me to let the season play out and let the computer decide. Having had my surgery last Aug. 2023, I feel confident I'll be playing the same level this spring. One exception, my low back issue needs to clear first, unrelated to my knees I know. I also understand each persons conditions pre, post surgery, timeframes to recovery along with when the surgery was performed all are different making what their playing condition will be the following season different! Granting bump downs for joint replacement simply opens up pandoras box for bad actors to further game the system.
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