Approaching Up The Middle On Clay

[Moz]

I have another red clay tournament coming up in a couple of weeks. I've played a total of 4 matches on it to date.

The last few times I've played on it I observed a couple of things happening. (I hit all my approaches with topspin):

a) When I came in on a ball that I would have success with on a hard court I would be a sitting duck. The type of ball was when I sent someone wide and then attack down the line off their shortish response.

b) When I gradually worked them wide laterally in both directions I had more success coming in but that obviously means I have to hit more accurate shots and dictate for longer. Eventually they'd get too far out of court to effectively pass off the approach.

My questions are for experienced clay courts players specifically although I'd be interested to hear all opinions:

1) If in scenario a) I had approached up the middle to cut the angle of pass down is it likely I would have more success? I read in an article that the approach up the middle can be very effective on red clay.

2) Is scenario b) the way I should expect to construct the points? I can't help feeling I'm not taking the first opportunity to finish the point and I should be. Is it my mentality that is at fault?

3) Do you find slice or topspin approaches more difficult to pass off of on red clay?

Thanks for your time. I'd appreciate it if, when you reply, you include a brief overview of your experience on red clay - just for context.

 

[Rickson]

I like playing the net, but I almost never play the net on clay. The surface is so slow that you're gonna have a lot of trouble putting away volleys. I'm not saying not to approach at all, but be very selective. Wait for the short ball, make sure the approaches are deep and don't be surprised if you can't put away the first volley like on hardcourts.

 

[Nellie]

Do you ever approach with slice? When I play on clay, I like to slice approaches soft and short down-the-line so the opponent has to hit over the net. I cannot approach cross court or I will get passed instantly. I don't approach up the middle because I could not cover all the options.

I have to admit that I struggle a little with clay because it really blunts my power game. It takes me a while to get used to going predominantly behind guys instead of looking for winners. It is tough to work and force a soft floater but not be able to do much with it.

 

[Andres]

I like playing the net, but I almost never play the net on clay. The surface is so slow that you're gonna have a lot of trouble putting away volleys.

That's nonsense. Red clay takes the spin better than most surfaces, so a spinny volley would be just as effective.

 

[Moz]

Thanks to everyone who has responded.

I must admit I feel that by approaching down the middle I can use short touch volleys to force a conclusion rather than powering them deep. In general I would be more inclined to play the angled volleys on clay.

I use slice rarely, particularly on approaches, but have started to practice it more. Sounds like it need to step up the practice a bit more.

 

[Barca tennis]

Hi Moz
love reading all your post.
yes approach up the middle this is a very good plan on clay to cut out the clay court players topspin passing shot which they so love also get slice going more they hate it! a lot of the clay guys cant hit it so well because of there forhand grips
barca

 

[snvplayer]

hmm, an interesting thought...

Down the middle approach can be effective to cut off angles, but clay will also give your opponent more time to set up his passing shots. So, you may not have deal with the angle aspect of passing shots, but may have to deal with more pace or more dipping passing shots. (It obviously depends on your opponent's capability). So if you are confident in your volleys and can handle low volleys, it might work.

In addition, the opponent now has more time hit and can consider hitting lobs. So you are having to deal with extra element as well.

Speaking of slice. You could try to pushing him back well behind baseline with deep - heavy topspin and come in with short slice approach. (Not the one that just sort of sits up near the baseline.)

 

[Andres]

One thing I like to do when playing on red clay is to hit a couple of really heavy topspin forehands to their forehands (to keep them pinned behind the baseline), and then approach crosscourt with a skidding slice to their backhand, with the ball bouncing around the service line.

Most coaches would cruciphy me for approaching crosscourt, but it's a tactic that never fails!
The guy has to run diagonally from behind the baseline to the service line, and try to manage a passing backhand off a skidding low ball ON THE RUN.

It's absolutely NON text-book, but hey! it works.

 

[Moz]

Some interesting ideas. It definitely looks like I'm going to have to get my slice up to scratch. It would be nice to have the option. I wouldn't really want to approach with a topspin down the middle. It's pretty difficult to hit an offensive lob off a deep slice.

I'll get to work!

Thanks everyone.

 

[Andres]

I created a beeeeauuuutiful Paint image (of which I'm very proud, cause my Paint skills BLOW!) where you could see visualize my point

 

[Moz]

Thanks for the diagram!! Impressive stuff.

I take it you're not hitting that shot hard. To take the pace off the slice do you alter the takeback or follow through or just reduce the racquet head speed?

Sorry for the newbie question.

 

[Andres]

The idea is not hitting it hard to take away his time.. it's an approach, after all, and not an attempt of a winner.

You have to keep in mind you should keep the ball low and skidding, and spinning away from him. You don't expect to end the point right there, but to have an easy put-away volley.

You don't take away the pace of the ball, you "transform" that pace into spin. Same concept than a kickserve. You use that racquet headspeed to create spin, not pace

 

[Moz]

Makes sense - thanks mate.

 

[Julieta]

I have another red clay tournament coming up in a couple of weeks. I've played a total of 4 matches on it to date.

The last few times I've played on it I observed a couple of things happening. (I hit all my approaches with topspin):

a) When I came in on a ball that I would have success with on a hard court I would be a sitting duck. The type of ball was when I sent someone wide and then attack down the line off their shortish response.

b) When I gradually worked them wide laterally in both directions I had more success coming in but that obviously means I have to hit more accurate shots and dictate for longer. Eventually they'd get too far out of court to effectively pass off the approach.

My questions are for experienced clay courts players specifically although I'd be interested to hear all opinions:

1) If in scenario a) I had approached up the middle to cut the angle of pass down is it likely I would have more success? I read in an article that the approach up the middle can be very effective on red clay.

2) Is scenario b) the way I should expect to construct the points? I can't help feeling I'm not taking the first opportunity to finish the point and I should be. Is it my mentality that is at fault?

3) Do you find slice or topspin approaches more difficult to pass off of on red clay?

Thanks for your time. I'd appreciate it if, when you reply, you include a brief overview of your experience on red clay - just for context.

I know someone who is a serve and volleyer/all courter and has been in a similar situation (fast courts to red clay) so I asked him for his opinion. He said when he arrived in Europe and tried to play his usual game on he'd get whipped by the seasoned clay courters. So he tried staying back and that didn't work either. Eventually he figured out a strategy that worked for him. He said he did some different stuff to win points. He said he attacked the second serve. He said he'd use drop shots to come in sometimes. He'd also hit high top spin moonballs off both sides, then hit a flat forehand early (this dude can play by the way, so changing it up would have been no problem for him) up the line and come in on that. He also said he tried to hit the ball early to get them to hopefully hit him a short ball. He said you have to be patient and then sting them and like the other poster said, the volleys will stick especially if you move through the shot. He also said that the main thing is that you have to figure out what works for you, what you feel comfortable doing and what will win you points. As the other poster said, he agreed that it was often out of the norm stuff that worked.

 

[Julieta]

The idea is not hitting it hard to take away his time.. it's an approach, after all, and not an attempt of a winner.

You have to keep in mind you should keep the ball low and skidding, and spinning away from him. You don't expect to end the point right there, but to have an easy put-away volley.

You don't take away the pace of the ball, you "transform" that pace into spin. Same concept than a kickserve. You use that racquet headspeed to create spin, not pace

Are you familiar with Germán Burgos the footballer? He is from Mar del Plata.

 

[Doc Hollidae]

Thanks for the diagram!! Impressive stuff.

I take it you're not hitting that shot hard. To take the pace off the slice do you alter the takeback or follow through or just reduce the racquet head speed?

Sorry for the newbie question.

To alter the pace and bounce height with slice, swing slower through the balls that you want to take pace off of and keep low.

While this tip might seem odd, it's one of those tips that make more sense once you try it.

 

[Nellie]

^^^^Que? Do you mean to swing softer to hit softer?

I would advocate shortening the backswing to hit softer. To hit shorter with the same pace, I shorten the follow-through

 

[Andres]

Are you familiar with Germán Burgos the footballer? He is from Mar del Plata.

I never met him, nor talked to him, but of course I know who he is
Guillermo Vilas is also from MdP

Where are you from, Ju?

 

[Mikael]

What I would add to this thread is that there is no single "clay court bounce". It really depends on the court and weather conditions. Sometimes the bounce can really be quite low, especially if the court is a little damp and has a lot of clay on it. In that case, slice approach shots can be quite effective.

Remember that when you play on clay you can only be sure of three things - you can slide, the ball leaves a mark, and the court is red (wait, you can't even be sure of that in the US). I have played tournaments on "fast" red clay (very little clay on the court), on slow red clay, with high bounces, low bounces, with erratic bounces, etc etc.

 

[Moz]

He also said that the main thing is that you have to figure out what works for you, what you feel comfortable doing and what will win you points. As the other poster said, he agreed that it was often out of the norm stuff that worked.

Thanks Julieta - valuable input as always. I'm not too good at improvising as I'm basically topspin, deep both sides and lots of running with coming in off short balls. Practice!

To alter the pace and bounce height with slice, swing slower through the balls that you want to take pace off of and keep low.

While this tip might seem odd, it's one of those tips that make more sense once you try it.

^^^^Que? Do you mean to swing softer to hit softer?

I would advocate shortening the backswing to hit softer. To hit shorter with the same pace, I shorten the follow-through

Nellie / Doc

This is basically my dilemna. On shorter balls I'm going to hit with topspin I shorten my backswing. But looking at slice techniques that doesn't seem to make sense because you want to keep the "square" set-up in preparation. If I reduced the follow through I'd get less slice. So I was leaning the way Doc suggested.

I'm probably overanalysing - I'll get out there and try it.

 

[seb85]

I havn't played red clay since i was much younger (11 or 12) however i regularly play on green clay these days. I think green is a bit faster but im sure the same principles apply.

The most important thing is to accept that not every attack you make will result in the expected conclusion. The game is very predictable on hard courts since the bounces are more regular and it doesn't pick up spins so much.

If an attack fails, and your opponent defends well, build another one from scratch. I fell into the trap of feeling like i 'deserved' to have already won the point. You are going to have to hit many more balls on clay esp against a good defender.

Use spins to vary the balls the opponent is seeing. Hit lots of slices, sidespins, topspins- clay really pickes them up and makes the ball move about. Junkball them occasionally- remember that it is easier to defend your side of the net aswell. Try and get into them mentally- hanging on the ropes for a little while to see if they start making some mistakes never hurts.

As for approach shots, attacking the net is a great way to finish off the points on clay as long you are in the position to do it. AS you have found, running passes are much easier since the ball sits up right into the strike zone of most players. Use scenario b) to get yourself into a good position. In order to execute it you need to practise those dicating shots- 80% power with loads of topspin- kick them off the court rather than flattening out like one would do on a hard court.

So I know I didn't answer your question directly. The reason i wrote all that was that I wanted to emphasise that the reason your approaches were getting killed was probably more because of the situation you were using them in, rather than the need to hit a particular type of approach.

BTW are you playing clay in Europe? or are you down at Sutton at the moment?

Seb

 

[Moz]

Seb.

I'm playing a tournament in Italy starting on the 14th May. It's a long way to go to get passed on every approach in your first match!! I did play on the red clay at Sutton once this year and was quite impressed by the quality of the courts. They compared favourably to Spain.

Thanks very much for your post - it was very useful. It confirms a lot of my suspicions!! I am a patient player however I don't like to see what I regard as chances go begging. I think on red clay I need to re-evaluate what a chance is.

I certainly get away with short approaches on hard that get me crucified on clay. I'll try and get a bit more air on topspin passes to drive them back. I'll also work on my ability to utilise the front of my opponent's court more with slice.

Thanks again.

 

[chess9]

Good luck in Italy, Moz!

As for red clay and Har-tru, I have several problems, being an old hard court player.

1. Irregular bounces drive me nuts as I have long arms and a long swing.
2. A 90 year old grandmother with one leg can get to almost everything on clay, but she'll need two legs on Har-tru. So, runners with patience and lots of topspin are the best clay courters it appears.
3. Patience! OMFG! Do I want to be buried out there? Call the undertaker, please. And the older guys who are good on clay will drive you nucking futs. I played a guy the other day who would have Brad Gilbert pulling out his hair. LOL! Puerto Rican with a street game....

-Robert

 

[seb85]

Seb.

I'm playing a tournament in Italy starting on the 14th May. It's a long way to go to get passed on every approach in your first match!! I did play on the red clay at Sutton once this year and was quite impressed by the quality of the courts. They compared favourably to Spain.

Thanks very much for your post - it was very useful. It confirms a lot of my suspicions!! I am a patient player however I don't like to see what I regard as chances go begging. I think on red clay I need to re-evaluate what a chance is.

I certainly get away with short approaches on hard that get me crucified on clay. I'll try and get a bit more air on topspin passes to drive them back. I'll also work on my ability to utilise the front of my opponent's court more with slice.

Thanks again.

Italy certainly is a long way to go to get passed! I think its just difficult for us British players to get into the clay mentality. There really just arn't many clay courts around- sutton are the only red ones i know of. Ive been hitting a lot on the green clay at Westway sports centre- do you know it? we're going to Zurich to represent college on red clay later this term so i want to be good by then!

Yeah I think patience has to be taken to a whole new level on clay. However the satisfaction i get from winning a match on it is so much greater because of all the tactical play involved. I love mixing it up. I also love running which helps i guess!

Its one of my bugbears with British tennis. We got rid of 'our' surface- shale- and replaced it with tarmac. I can see the cost benefits but in terms of our juniors it really isn't great. Shale or clay is so much softer on joints reducing the chance on injury. It also helps learn an appreciation for tactics- you can get pretty far on a hardcourt just by spanking it from the baseline.

One more tactical thing that i like personally is bringing my opponent to the net. My running forehand is probably my best asset and the ball sits up so nicely on clay...

Good luck in Italy

Seb

 

[rocket]

I am a patient player however I don't like to see what I regard as chances go begging. I think on red clay I need to re-evaluate what a chance is.

Once well inside the baseline, be prepared to finish off the point at net. Rip one into the open space, or behind the guy, then come in. Only use the drop-shot when he's nowhere near the net.

It's very hard to stop & start quickly on clay, both for you & your opponents, so bear that in mind & plan your attacks based on it. Good luck!

 

[Nellie]

Another point I think about after taking my usual clay beating is that clay strategies are often long-term. By this, I mean that a strategy is often not meant to win a point, but to win games later in the match. When I play someone with good topspin on clay, I end up doing well for the first hour or so, but enventually, my shoulder wears out from hitting hard, high balls. Similarly, with a slicer, my back and legs are killing me after bending down to get the ball for the 200th time - so I find myself losing a lot of 3 set matches on clay after winning the first set.

So regarding your initial strategy, if you slice approaches up the middle, I think you may get passed first, but eventually, the opponents footwork may start to waver when you consistently point them on the move.

 

[Moz]

Good luck in Italy, Moz!

As for red clay and Har-tru, I have several problems, being an old hard court player.

1. Irregular bounces drive me nuts as I have long arms and a long swing.
2. So, runners with patience and lots of topspin are the best clay courters it appears.
3. Patience! OMFG! Do I want to be buried out there?
-Robert

Thanks Robert

I totally agree with 1. but the courts I've been on so far have been okay. Numbers 2 and 3 are okay, on the other hand I don't want to be out there all day!

Its one of my bugbears with British tennis. We got rid of 'our' surface- shale- and replaced it with tarmac. I can see the cost benefits but in terms of our juniors it really isn't great. Shale or clay is so much softer on joints reducing the chance on injury. It also helps learn an appreciation for tactics- you can get pretty far on a hardcourt just by spanking it from the baseline.

Don't get me started mate! There is only one thing worse and that is replace them with artificial grass. I need something which is softer on the joints though, I can't walk in the mornings. Good luck in your trip.

Once well inside the baseline, be prepared to finish off the point at net. Rip one into the open space, or behind the guy, then come in. Only use the drop-shot when he's nowhere near the net.

It's very hard to stop & start quickly on clay, both for you & your opponents, so bear that in mind & plan your attacks based on it. Good luck!

I think I'm definitely going to attack behind the guy. It's something I never usually do but can see it being useful. Thanks.

Another point I think about after taking my usual clay beating is that clay strategies are often long-term....

So regarding your initial strategy, if you slice approaches up the middle, I think you may get passed first, but eventually, the opponents footwork may start to waver when you consistently point them on the move.

That's an interesting point. Particularly as I'm 35 in an over 35's event. If they look slightly out of shape I'm going to make them stay out there until they drop.

 

[J011yroger]

I have found the one thing to help me on clay approaches is to focus on keeping the ball LOW, moreso than deep. Normally on a hard court I can hurt my opponent so badly off of a short ball, that I am just up at net looking to pick up the pieces. While on clay, that same ball would sit up and slow down allowing me to be passed.

I would consider it almost unthinkable to be approaching the net regularly without a quality slice approach.

As far as approaching up the middle, moreso that location on the court, I would consider location of opponent and just slap the ball right at them. When you smack that flat power drive directly at them and deep, they need to first get out of the way of the ball, and second create some type of angle out of a shot that has no angle on it comming in.

Just some perspective from a power player who also struggled on clay and is working hard to get better on it.

I also left out the part about how I hit perfect approach shots, get weak replys and flub the easy volley, I didn't think you really needed instruction on how to accomplish that one.

J

 

[Moz]

As far as approaching up the middle, moreso that location on the court, I would consider location of opponent and just slap the ball right at them. When you smack that flat power drive directly at them and deep, they need to first get out of the way of the ball, and second create some type of angle out of a shot that has no angle on it comming in.

I also left out the part about how I hit perfect approach shots, get weak replys and flub the easy volley, I didn't think you really needed instruction on how to accomplish that one.

J

Straight at them, wherever they are - that's a nice idea. The general theme seems to be that on clay it's not always the obvious approach that is best, it's the approach which will:

a) cause them to change direction
b) get out of the way of the ball to set up for the shot
c) force them to hit a ball that is not in their natural strike zone.

Or even better all 3. So as they recover from a wide backhand I'll hit a deep slice to their left shoulder as an approach!

Whereas on a hard court hitting to the open court - which they are running towards in anticipation of your approach - is typically good enough.

Jo11y - thanks and you are correct - I need absolutely no instruction on how to flub the easy volley!!!

 

[FedererISBetter]

And if somehow your approach isn't there, be READY for that great shot thats you gotta volley back. Not neccessary to volley for a winner, but volley to get a flab return so you can volley it away. Get low, split, and block that great shot deep

 

[Fay]

One thing I like to do when playing on red clay is to hit a couple of really heavy topspin forehands to their forehands (to keep them pinned behind the baseline), and then approach crosscourt with a skidding slice to their backhand, with the ball bouncing around the service line.

Most coaches would cruciphy me for approaching crosscourt, but it's a tactic that never fails!
The guy has to run diagonally from behind the baseline to the service line, and try to manage a passing backhand off a skidding low ball ON THE RUN.

It's absolutely NON text-book, but hey! it works.

I take my lesson on clay every week and my coach has recommended this very same sound advice.

 

[chess9]

I have found the one thing to help me on clay approaches is to focus on keeping the ball LOW, moreso than deep. Normally on a hard court I can hurt my opponent so badly off of a short ball, that I am just up at net looking to pick up the pieces. While on clay, that same ball would sit up and slow down allowing me to be passed.

I would consider it almost unthinkable to be approaching the net regularly without a quality slice approach.

As far as approaching up the middle, moreso that location on the court, I would consider location of opponent and just slap the ball right at them. When you smack that flat power drive directly at them and deep, they need to first get out of the way of the ball, and second create some type of angle out of a shot that has no angle on it comming in.

Just some perspective from a power player who also struggled on clay and is working hard to get better on it.

I also left out the part about how I hit perfect approach shots, get weak replys and flub the easy volley, I didn't think you really needed instruction on how to accomplish that one.

J

Great idea, hitting right at them! I never thought of it. DUH!!! That's a fabulous tip. Post of the month for me.

-Robert

 

[J011yroger]

Great idea, hitting right at them! I never thought of it. DUH!!! That's a fabulous tip. Post of the month for me.

-Robert

Right, just make sure you understand the difference between hitting it TO them, and hitting it AT them.

J

 

[Julieta]

I never met him, nor talked to him, but of course I know who he is
Guillermo Vilas is also from MdP

Where are you from, Ju?

I'm from the States. My sister loved Burgos back in the 90s.

 

[Julieta]

Thanks Julieta - valuable input as always. I'm not too good at improvising as I'm basically topspin, deep both sides and lots of running with coming in off short balls. Practice!





Nellie / Doc

This is basically my dilemna. On shorter balls I'm going to hit with topspin I shorten my backswing. But looking at slice techniques that doesn't seem to make sense because you want to keep the "square" set-up in preparation. If I reduced the follow through I'd get less slice. So I was leaning the way Doc suggested.

I'm probably overanalysing - I'll get out there and try it.

I forgot too that there was this guy at my school, an English guy actually, and he used to hit this amazing approach shot. It was kind of like a moonball but not - lots of top which being an approach he hit from up in the court. He had incredible footwork as I recall. This was on fast courts though.

 

[Doc Hollidae]

^^^^Que? Do you mean to swing softer to hit softer?

I would advocate shortening the backswing to hit softer. To hit shorter with the same pace, I shorten the follow-through

No. While the advice I gave might seem somewhat vague, it’s one of those things you have to try yourself to understand the concept. Rather than trying to visualize it.

Nellie / Doc

This is basically my dilemna. On shorter balls I'm going to hit with topspin I shorten my backswing. But looking at slice techniques that doesn't seem to make sense because you want to keep the "square" set-up in preparation. If I reduced the follow through I'd get less slice. So I was leaning the way Doc suggested.

I'm probably overanalysing - I'll get out there and try it.

Moz,
You’re spot on in regards to the Nellie’s suggestion. When you shorten your stroke on a slice, you reduce the amount of spin produced potentially and as well as depth. My suggestion of slowing the swing down is for keeping the ball low and disguising depth and pace without significantly altering your stroke technically or visually.

For me, I use the slow swinging slice mostly when approaching for 2 reasons. 1) It keeps the ball low so my opponent has to hit up on the ball, therefore putting him in a defensive or neutral position. 2) It allows me to take my normal slice stroke, but vary the pace, depth, and bounce height. A favorite play of mine is to hit a soft, low bouncing slice around the service line. Most players anticipate a deep approach, but end up having to lunge for the ball or are pulled out of position. Federer does this quiet frequently in his matches, but does it as a groundstroke rather than an approach. He’ll slice a short ball into no man’s land that forces his opponent to hit a defensive or neutral shot and pulls them out of position.

 

[J011yroger]

Surprised no one has mentioned the time honored sneaking in behind a high bounding ball to the backhand ploy.

J