Arantxa Sanchez Vicario considers Graf greater than Serena still.

[pat200]

The article is in not in English so here is the translation done by google.

http://www.ubitennis.com/blog/2015/...ategoria-pero-steffi-graf-e-ancora-superiore/

Arantxa Sanchez Vicario: "Serena is another category, but Steffi Graf is still higher"
The former world No.1, Arantxa Sanchez Vicario, compares the domains of Serena Williams and Steffi Graf, the German choosing between the two: "Steffi has peaked with the Golden Slam of 1988 and 22 Slam"

Over two and a half decades ago, the No.1 in the world at the time, Arantxa Sanchez Vicario , winning the French Open became the youngest player to triumph in a Grand Slam tournament, surpassing the record previously belonged to Steffi Graf. Reflecting on the success achieved in 1989, Arantxa compared the level of domination imposed in the circuit by the German and Serena Williams. According to the Spanish, the 34-year old native of Saginaw was unfortunate in not being able to complete the Calendar Grand Slam, playing however a different sport from all other contenders: "Serena has a game immensely powerful and a hunger to win nothing short of voracious. As long as keep up the level of these two factors and to keep fit, I think for any tennis player is very hard to think of to win her bastion. It is a complete player and is really a gulf between her and other players. If you want to think to beat her, you have to do it in the early rounds, the more we advance in the tournament the more she becomes virtually unbeatable. "

When asked who would choose between Graf and Williams, however, Arantxa has no doubts: "Steffi has peaked winning the Golden Slam successes in 1988 and 22 in the Major."

 

[mattosgrant]

It is natural for a player to favor someone of their own era, especialy one they had a rivalry with. Making Graf as great as possible also makes Sanchez Vicario look the best she can, since she was the great player Sanchez did best against (she had poorer records against all of Seles, Hingis, Navratilova, so Graf was by far her best match up of the major greats of her own era).

 

[pat200]

this is coming from a player who has a 4-3 record against serena

 

[mattosgrant]

this is coming from a player who has a 4-3 record against serena

that is true, but people still dont associate Serena and Sanchez together in anyway. Everyone knows they arent from the same era at all, and their primes werent even remotedly close to ever crossing. Most people would be surprised they even played 7 times, and remember few if any of the encounters. I for instance only recall 2 of their encounters ever, the 98 Sydney semis and 98 RG 4th round. I dont even remember any of the other 5, and I am an ardent womens tennis follower.

Sanchez's biggest claim to fame other than her clay legacy and reaching 12 slam finals, is her record and rivalry vs Graf. Against the other really big guns of her era she was considerably less impressive.

 

[scotus]

It is natural for a player to favor someone of their own era, especialy one they had a rivalry with. Making Graf as great as possible also makes Sanchez Vicario look the best she can, since she was the great player Sanchez did best against (she had poorer records against all of Seles, Hingis, Navratilova, so Graf was by far her best match up of the major greats of her own era).

Agassi does exactly the opposite, and of course, we can spin that one, too. Agassi feels so insecure about his record against Sampras that he feels better whenever he gets to rank another player higher than his greatest rival or take cheap shots at his character.

Well, psychobabble can spin things in any number of directions, but it's simply unnecessary.

Let Sanchez speak. There's no need for you to come to Serena's defense. Serena doesn't need it.

 

[PDJ]

ASV is entitled to her opinion.
ASV was also no1 in both singles and doubles. Not too shabby.
I was unaware she had a leading h2h on SW. Must be one of the very few. I think Cornet does?? But can think of no one else. Did Capriarti?

 

[mattosgrant]

I am not saying Sanchez's opinion is invalid. Just in her case she isnt entirely an impartial source on the matter given that probably more than anyone else the better Graf is = the better Sanchez looks.

Capriati is 7-10 vs Serena. She is 1 of only 2 players who has played Serena in atleast 3 slams with a winning slam head to head of 4-3 (the other being Henin, 6-8 overall, but 4-3 in slams).

 

[boredone3456]

I will say I completely agree with her opinion and assessment of the situation and am sure there are many others who do. To say she is saying it to make herself look better in the eyes of history however is cruel to her as a person. Vicario has never come off as a media hog and has never been one to really sell herself and her stats to the levels other players have done in the past. She played Graf for years and knows her game and her achievements quite well (many of Grafs achievements came at Vicarios direct expense). She has also watched Serena as a player and seen the game evolve and is perfectly capable of making an assessment that is impartial....Just because she played alongside graf does not mean she is playing favorites. If that was the case no tennis commentator would call Federer the GOAT because none of them played against him

 

[Man of steel]

ASV is entitled to her opinion.
ASV was also no1 in both singles and doubles. Not too shabby.
I was unaware she had a leading h2h on SW. Must be one of the very few. I think Cornet does?? But can think of no one else. Did Capriarti?

No cornet doesn't lead that H2H.

 

[PDJ]

No cornet doesn't lead that H2H.

Is it level? I didn't think SW was up, but will, of course, apologise if I'm wrong,

 

[Man of steel]

Is it level? I didn't think SW was up, but will, of course, apologise if I'm wrong,

Yeah its level. One of cornets win (the last match they played against each other was a retirement from serena at wuhan when serena was leading.

 

[PDJ]

Williams was barely leading when she retired.

3-3 plus additional w/o to Cornet.
They've only played one slam event, Wimbledon, with Cornet victorious.

2014 Wuhan R32 Hard Alize Cornet Serena Williams 5-6 Ret'd
2014 Wimbledon R32 Grass Alize Cornet Serena Williams 1-6 6-3 6-4
2014 Dubai SF Hard Alize Cornet Serena Williams 6-4 6-4
2013 Brisbane R16 Hard Serena Williams Alize Cornet 6-2 6-2
2008 Olympic Tennis R16 Hard Serena Williams Alize Cornet 3-6 6-3 6-4
2008 Rome Masters QF Clay Alize Cornet Serena Williams WO
2008 Charleston SF Clay Serena Williams Alize Cornet 7-5 6-3

 

[Man of steel]

Well 2014 was a mess for serena. Mentally all over the place.

 

[PDJ]

Well 2014 was a mess for serena. Mentally all over the place.

Cornet seems to have taken advantage of Williams mental state more consistently than most.
Cornet is as good against Serena as she is bad against Venus.

 

[Man of steel]

Cornet seems to have taken advantage of Williams mental state more consistently than most.
Cornet is as good against Serena as she is bad against Venus.

Well venus is a no nonsense sort a player. She handles players who are really dramatic. Serena as everyone knows is one of the queens of drama alongside jankovic and cornet. Hence the easier it is for venus to handle cornet than serena. Also notice the difficulty serena had with jankovic a few years ago. Serena's got a hold of that H2H in recent years but jankovic gave serena a lot of trouble back in 07/08

 

[pc1]

I don't know why it seems so shocking that ASV thinks Graf is better than Serena. This is Graf we're talking about, not just some hacker off the street. Graf also had super talent.

 

[BTURNER]

that is true, but people still dont associate Serena and Sanchez together in anyway. Everyone knows they arent from the same era at all, and their primes werent even remotedly close to ever crossing. Most people would be surprised they even played 7 times, and remember few if any of the encounters. I for instance only recall 2 of their encounters ever, the 98 Sydney semis and 98 RG 4th round. I dont even remember any of the other 5, and I am an ardent womens tennis follower.

Sanchez's biggest claim to fame other than her clay legacy and reaching 12 slam finals, is her record and rivalry vs Graf. Against the other really big guns of her era she was considerably less impressive.

Now your argument really begins to fray.... The more you 'interpret' what is going on in the mind of a player you have never met, never had a conversation with, and with whom you do not share a native language, the worse this gets. Your first post was a base and vague generalization about what 'players do'. This one is attempts to carve out an intricate mental dance whereby Sanchez thinks and remembers and prioritizes what 'most people do' and redefines her bias away from the very Head to Head, that heretofore mattered because you were faced with an awkward fact.

Just leave it be. She knows what she thinks and it is entirely valid and appropriate opinion of someone who played them both, knows how players of both generations prioritized the 'legacy measures' of the time and is applying them as she sees fit. You don't need to undermine the credibility of this opinion to have your own.

 

[CCNM]

Ahhh! Steffi v. Arantxa!!! Now that was some good tennis! (IMO)

 

[MLRoy]

Well 2014 was a mess for serena. Mentally all over the place.

You sound like her publicist. Care to comment on her 2014 Wimbledon doubles play? Virus? Bad ice cube? Gypsy curse? Mass hallucination?

 

[big ted]

why would anyone choose serenas career over grafs?
doesnt graf still lead in about every category?

 

[mattosgrant]

why would anyone choose serenas career over grafs?
doesnt graf still lead in about every category?

I can think of some possible reasons:

1. Far greater longevity. People find it amazing what Serena has done in her 30s and how she has conquered many generations vs Graf who retired barely after her 30th birthday.

2. Is now firmly superior on the dominant surface of modern tennis (and of both Graf and Serena's era)- hard courts.

3. Has an outstanding doubles career to go with her legendary singles career. Graf obviously not.

4. Doesn't have an asterisk attached to her career (biggest rival who was 4.5 years younger and dominant #1 over you for 2.5 years being stabbed).

5. Is recognized to at one point have played in and generally been the best player of the most competitive an deep era ever (1999-2005). All players have haters who say they benefitted from weak competition (Graf and Serena included). However when people talk about who had great competition, Serena atleast for a part of her career is talked about. Graf never.

 

[PDJ]

I can think of some possible reasons:

1. Far greater longevity. People find it amazing what Serena has done in her 30s and how she has conquered many generations vs Graf who retired barely after her 30th birthday.

2. Is now firmly superior on the dominant surface of modern tennis (and of both Graf and Serena's era)- hard courts.

3. Has an outstanding doubles career to go with her legendary singles career. Graf obviously not.

4. Doesn't have an asterisk attached to her career (biggest rival who was 4.5 years younger and dominant #1 over you for 2.5 years being stabbed).

5. Is recognized to at one point have played in and generally been the best player of the most competitive an deep era ever (1999-2005). All players have haters who say they benefitted from weak competition (Graf and Serena included). However when people talk about who had great competition, Serena atleast for a part of her career is talked about. Graf never.

Graf, whilst she could be churlish on court, doesn't have any of the asterisks against her on court behaviour that Williams has. Whilst this in no way detracts from their accomplishments, it does, IMO, play a role in their legacies as champions.

 

[Man of steel]

Graf, whilst she could be churlish on court, doesn't have any of the asterisks against her on court behaviour that Williams has. Whilst this in no way detracts from their accomplishments, it does, IMO, play a role in their legacies as champions.

What a load of bull....even for you.

 

[PDJ]

What a load of bull....even for you.

Never seen the full lead up, only the serving, so this was most illuminating.

 

[PDJ]

I don't know why it seems so shocking that ASV thinks Graf is better than Serena. This is Graf we're talking about, not just some hacker off the street. Graf also had super talent.

It's only shocking to the ..... what's that phrase?...... Oh, yes.... "the usual suspects"

 

[Vanhool]

Never seen the full lead up, only the serving, so this was most illuminating.

Illuminating in what way?

 

[roger presley]

Agree with Arantxa.

 

[mattosgrant]

Graf, whilst she could be churlish on court, doesn't have any of the asterisks against her on court behaviour that Williams has. Whilst this in no way detracts from their accomplishments, it does, IMO, play a role in their legacies as champions.

That is a fair opinion, but I never said there was no case for Graf being over Serena. I disputed another posters claim there was no possible claim for Serena being superior to Graf. My list of examples shows that is not the case.

 

[boredone3456]

While there used to be a big 4 I think now you have to say there is a big 5 of Martina, Graf, Evert, Court and Serena. Personally I still don't consider Serena the GOAT but I can't say she doesn't deserve to be mentioned among the other leading contenders.

 

[PDJ]

Illuminating in what way?

Because I've only ever seen the serving game, not the previous games or the lead up to the match eventually beginning.
I'm not sure what the ruling is, but twenty+ plus minutes, before the match began seems excessive.
Beyond bizarre she even walked out there.

 

[Vanhool]

Because I've only ever seen the serving game, not the previous games or the lead up to the match eventually beginning.
I'm not sure what the ruling is, but twenty+ plus minutes, before the match began seems excessive.
Beyond bizarre she even walked out there.

I think she was too fever nutty to think for herself and they should have just not let them go on if it couldn't happen in a timely manner. I think the tournament directors really wanted them playing doubles though, since they are such a huge draw.

I thought it was illuminating that Virginia Wade and her co-commentator (and the medical staff, and non medical tournament staff) could see Serena was sick, and yet the American commentators were quick to assume that Serena was drunk or on drugs (especially Dr. Navritilova).

Edit: maybe she didn't have a fever yet and was just wanting to go out there. A mess. I feel she shouldn't have gone out there, but she gave the fans a show I'm sure they won't forget

 

[PDJ]

I think she was too fever nutty to think for herself and they should have just not let them go on if it couldn't happen in a timely manner. I think the tournament directors really wanted them playing doubles though, since they are such a huge draw.

I thought it was illuminating that Virginia Wade and her co-commentator (and the medical staff, and non medical tournament staff) could see Serena was sick, and yet the American commentators were quick to assume that Serena that she was drunk or on drugs (especially Dr. Navritilova).

Edit: maybe she didn't have a fever yet and was just wanting to go out there. A mess. I feel she shouldn't have gone out there, but she gave the fans a show I'm sure they won't forget

Either some one in her entourage/family should have stopped her or they tried and she thought better. Clearly she was being asked if she wanted to continue by Andrew Jarrett.
Which ever it's certainly up there in most bizarre events at Wimbledon ever.
Bonkers.

 

[Vanhool]

Because I've only ever seen the serving game, not the previous games or the lead up to the match eventually beginning.
I'm not sure what the ruling is, but twenty+ plus minutes, before the match began seems excessive.
Beyond bizarre she even walked out there.

Oh, I remember why I asked. I was wondering if you considered this one of her asterisks?

 

[Vanhool]

^We were typing at the same time

 

[Vanhool]

Either some one in her entourage/family should have stopped her or they tried and she thought better. Clearly she was being asked if she wanted to continue by Andrew Jarrett.
Which ever it's certainly up there in most bizarre events at Wimbledon ever.
Bonkers.

Agreed

 

[PDJ]

Oh, I remember why I asked. I was wondering if you considered this one of her asterisks?

Yes. I do. Obviously not the biggest in terms of behaviour. But I can't imagine Graf (or any other of the greats in recent times - Open Era) being so ill-advised and opening themselves up to such ridicule. Personally I'd think less of it if she hadn't posted a selfie the same day from her 'sick bed', albeit the sofa she was lying on.
She's either not listening to good advice, getting bad advice or she just goes her merry way without thought for the consequences.
Barking.

 

[Vanhool]

Yes. I do. Obviously not the biggest in terms of behaviour. But I can't imagine Graf (or any other of the greats in recent times - Open Era) being so ill-advised and opening themselves up to such ridicule. Personally I'd think less of it if she hadn't posted a selfie the same day from her 'sick bed', albeit the sofa she was lying on.
She's either not listening to good advice, getting bad advice or she just goes her merry way without thought for the consequences.
Barking.

I think she posted the selfie because people were accusing her of being drunk or on drugs.

I think it was ill advised to go out there and embarrass herself but perhaps she didn't want to let her sister down (or fans or sponsors or who knows what) and thought she'd try. Or maybe she felt pressured by the tournament. Or maybe she just really wanted to win the tournament and hoped the dizziness would pass, and didn't think an early round doubles match on a side court would cause such a big stir. I think it wasn't really a big deal until everyone made it a big deal. It seems some will always assume the worst from her and want to ridicule or criticize her no matter what she does. If she didn't go out and play they'd be saying nasty things as well, but at least it wouldn't live on in youtube infamy.

Edit: but I guess that goes on for a lot of players to some degree. I can't believe how bad people make fun of sick or injured players in here.

 

[PDJ]

But that's my point - consequences.
And neither of us are naive enough to think that the biggest name in women's tennis in recent years is not going to attract attention, coupled with a personality that is the polar opposite to a reserved Graf! Hard to imagine the latter playing majors in leather or leopard prints
And she's on Court No.1! One of the most famous courts in tennis!
And she's pulled out of doubles matches before so I'm not convinced by most arguments stating she didn't want to let anyone down or felt pressure from the tournament etc.
As I say, it's part of her legacy. And she has to take responsibility for that. Or get people around her to protect her from herself.

 

[Vanhool]

But that's my point - consequences.
And neither of us are naive enough to think that the biggest name in women's tennis in recent years is not going to attract attention, coupled with a personality that is the polar opposite to a reserved Graf! Hard to imagine the latter playing majors in leather or leopard prints
And she's on Court No.1! One of the most famous courts in tennis!
And she's pulled out of doubles matches before so I'm not convinced by most arguments stating she didn't want to let anyone down or felt pressure from the tournament etc.
As I say, it's part of her legacy. And she has to take responsibility for that. Or get people around her to protect her from herself.

Oh well. I guess I just think people have made a mountain out of a molehill (from my perspective) but I can understand you see it differently.

Novak was bumbling about today with an eye infection (though not as ridiculously) and then retired and I don't have a problem with that either. He gave it a shot and it didn't work out. Serena won two slams last year while playing sick as a dog. Sometimes it works out if you show up and do your best. And I think post embolism Serena is more serious about her commitments.

 

[PDJ]

Oh well. I guess I just think people have made a mountain out of a molehill (from my perspective) but I can understand you see it differently.

Novak was bumbling about today with an eye infection (though not as ridiculously) and then retired and I don't have a problem with that either. He gave it a shot and it didn't work out. Serena won two slams last year while playing sick as a dog. Sometimes it works out if you show up and do your best. And I think post embolism Serena is more serious about her commitments.

If it weren't for the evidence of her Wimbledon 14 doubles I'd assume she can turn up with one leg and still win such is her opposition (tongue in cheek)

 

[mattosgrant]

Novak was bumbling about today with an eye infection (though not as ridiculously) and then retired and I don't have a problem with that either. He gave it a shot and it didn't work out.

yes but likewise to Serena, the crowd was far less than impressed.

 

[Vanhool]

If it weren't for the evidence of her Wimbledon 14 doubles I'd assume she can turn up with one leg and still win such is her opposition (tongue in cheek)

I would have given her a better chance with one leg vs dizzy. I've seen Hobblerena win quite a few early round matches parked on the baseline

 

[mattosgrant]

While I don't subscribe to how supposably incredibly weak the womens field is today I do subscribe to how weak the doubles fields have become. It seems it isn't an interest for the players anymore. Womens doubles is actually the best of womens, mens, and mixed. The absolute worst is mixed doubles. I look at the draws for those and I just burst out laughing. Serena was reaching mixed doubles slams finals her first year on tour with some guy called Lobo who was like 5 feet tall, could barely serve, and move. I am sure she could have picked me as a partner and just as well.

 

[Vanhool]

yes but likewise to Serena, the crowd was far less than impressed.

very rude crowd yesterday

 

[mattosgrant]

very rude crowd yesterday

Maybe the Federer fan army decided to go that day, and it was their chance to vent some frusteration of the last 9 months.

 

[Vanhool]

While I don't subscribe to how supposably incredibly weak the womens field is today I do subscribe to how weak the doubles fields have become. It seems it isn't an interest for the players anymore. Womens doubles is actually the best of womens, mens, and mixed. The absolute worst is mixed doubles. I look at the draws for those and I just burst out laughing. Serena was reaching mixed doubles slams finals her first year on tour with some guy called Lobo who was like 5 feet tall, could barely serve, and move. I am sure she could have picked me as a partner and just as well.

It's a shame, because I really like the tradition of well rounded players, and I enjoy watching it. I think the TDs must be thrilled to have Hingis back on the doubles circuit, and even moreso when the WS show up. I was lucky to see Hingis/Hantucova vs Errani/Vinci on a small court at Cincy right when she started her comeback. The place was packed and the energy was so high.

I wish Kvitova would play more doubles since she often bombs out early from singles.

 

[mattosgrant]

It's a shame, because I really like the tradition of well rounded players, and I enjoy watching it. I think the TDs must be thrilled to have Hingis back on the doubles circuit, and even moreso when the WS show up. I was lucky to see Hingis/Hantucova vs Errani/Vinci on a small court at Cincy right when she started her comeback. The place was packed and the energy was so high.

I wish Kvitova would play more doubles since she often bombs out early from singles.

I can only surmise tennis is so physical today many find the workload too hard. I agree with you on Kvitova. She could also improve her volleys and develop more of an all court game which with her inconsistent ground game she needs.

Hingis even in her singles prime played doubles regularly. Clijsters somewhat too. Williams played when they felt like it, now regularly, but semi regular. It is strange even less and less do now. Hingis/Mirza is such an odd pairing as their games are nothing alike, but they dominate. What do they look like live together?

 

[PDJ]

I can only surmise tennis is so physical today many find the workload too hard. I agree with you on Kvitova. She could also improve her volleys and develop more of an all court game which with her inconsistent ground game she needs.

Hingis even in her singles prime played doubles regularly. Clijsters somewhat too. Williams played when they felt like it, now regularly, but semi regular. It is strange even less and less do now. Hingis/Mirza is such an odd pairing as their games are nothing alike, but they dominate. What do they look like live together?

I'll post some clips of Hingis/Mirza when I'm back from a night out, but in a nutshell they look awesome together. They absolutely compliment each other- Mirza has a solid hard serve and a booming forehand that rivals the best out there. Hingis is sublime on the net, exceptional hands and court craft. Exceptional backhand down the line and court coverage.
I prefer watching them to 99% of singles matches.

 

[Vanhool]

Iirc Kvitova has nice hands, the issue is lumbering her way up to the net. I think she could win slams with the right partner. Vika could scoop some up too and could use the extra matchplay. Of course, that's how it looks to me, I have no idea what a struggle it would actually be for them. I suppose they think they know what's best for themselves pfffft.

We had a few solid teams of B listers, but a lot of them have broken up, which has left a bit of a void. It seems a good regularly practicing team of B listers can make a pretty good case against A listers that show up erratically. But when you get a team that includes at least 1 A lister (which H/M does), it's awesome!

Serena was actually dedicating herself to doubles before her injury/embolism took her out. Six of her major doubles titles coincided with six of her singles titles. She has a two career slams in doubles. They actually had a WS slam just before her embolism, winning 2009 Wimbledon and USO, 2010 AO and FO. She was ranked number 1 in singles and doubles in 2010. It is a real shame she got derailed, but I'm glad she made it back. Even still she was she was showing up for the doubles, but then that doubles injury that cost her the AO. I think that, combined with the fact that singles records were now within her reach and time was running out....it wasn't worth it anymore Hopefully she passes Court's singles record and then goes gunning for her total slams record! #LordWillingAndThe CreekDon'tRise #TeamGrannyWilliams

 

[Man of steel]

But that's my point - consequences.
And neither of us are naive enough to think that the biggest name in women's tennis in recent years is not going to attract attention, coupled with a personality that is the polar opposite to a reserved Graf! Hard to imagine the latter playing majors in leather or leopard prints
And she's on Court No.1! One of the most famous courts in tennis!
And she's pulled out of doubles matches before so I'm not convinced by most arguments stating she didn't want to let anyone down or felt pressure from the tournament etc.
As I say, it's part of her legacy. And she has to take responsibility for that. Or get people around her to protect her from herself.

Well no offence to graf but she has no sense in fashion. She and anyone else in her era wasn't willing enough to break the mold when it came to womens tennis clothing. None of grafs tennis outfits are iconic. While venus but moreso serena have many iconic tennis outfits and are the biggest influences of fashion in tennis in this modern era. She did very little outside of tennis.