Are males ranked 3.5 to 4.0 weaker than a WTA player?

Discussion in 'Racquets' started by flargosa, Mar 19, 2017 at 8:56 AM.

  1. CopolyX

    CopolyX Hall of Fame

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    No disrespect?
    Then I guess you calling my comment ignorant (meaning> lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned) and my post snobby (and a snob > meaning: one who blatantly imitates, fawningly admires, or vulgarly seeks association with those regarded as social superiors) is not personal or attack driven. Not at all!

    I did read your excellent thoughtful thread and I certainly plead guilty to the crime (& also going a bit nuts with the quotes) of not helping the OP, nor guiding.
    Nor did you also. I did not read one helpful hint from you to the OP.
    So you are either going to add value to this thread for the OP or not, since I certainly have did not.
    But it appears you also failed.
    Now you can certain continue to not disrespect me.
    If you feel it helps you or others. I am here for you.
    Best of luck teaching kids, I just hope it is not just spoon feeding them. Absolutely no disrespect ...
    Cheers CopolyX
    From parts unknown....but I can be easily found!
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017 at 10:30 AM
    #51
  2. Frans Bleker

    Frans Bleker Rookie

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    Interesting debate, I know a guy who was about ~1200 on the atp ranking and he could not beat a female pro who was top 30 at that time, (oh at the time they played he wasn't on the atp ranking anymore though).
     
    #52
  3. navigator

    navigator Professional

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    You're 100% wrong - she competes with and occasionally beats them in matches. As you're probably aware, NTRP level isn't determined by "groundstroke practice," it's determined by match play.

    She played on the tour... twenty years ago... and reached 670 in the WTA rankings, when she was (obviously) much better than she is today.

    You conspicuously avoided addressing my offer to fund your trip to San Diego to play her. So, the offer stands - I'll pay for your RT flight to SD and a night in a hotel. I'll video your match with her and post it here. It's a good deal - free travel to and from SD and you can stay as long as you like, but the extra nights and that trip to kiss Shamu at SeaWorld are on you. If you play your cards right, you might even get an audience with Sureshs.

    Anyhow, I emailed a former HS teammate of mine to get his opinion on all of this. He was Serena's traveling coach for a few years. Also a decent player - two-time Div I NCAA finalist in singles and top-200 ATP. I'll report back with his view.
     
    #53
  4. navigator

    navigator Professional

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    He must have only been a 4.0 by the time he lost to that top-30 pro... ;)
     
    #54
  5. haqqani1777

    haqqani1777 Hall of Fame

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    Off course not, my comments were not meant to be offensive. Like I said, I called you out on your condescending tone - which it was. Your comment was indeed ignorant and snobby. I see the problem here though. You pretend to be out here like a wise, old man trying to part ways with sage advice but it seems you do not have the knack to take criticism yourself, unfortunately. As for me, I never claimed to answer the OP or add value like you. I was merely replying to your post. I do know one thing; being condescending to kids and leaving psychological scars on them is far worse than being kind to them. Not that I'd ever taker any tips from you on anything anyway much less raising kids. Cheers and happy posting, anonymous poster on a forum.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017 at 9:26 AM
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    #55
  6. Booger

    Booger Hall of Fame

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    I don't think I want to go that far to win an e-argument, but still very tempting. I don't think we're supposed to go to Sea World any more since that movie came out, though. Does this mystery superstar WTA player know you're putting her up for battle of the sexes, part III?
     
    #56
  7. speedysteve

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    The original question is laughable.
     
    #57
  8. n8dawg6

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    i knew this chick once ...
     
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  9. navigator

    navigator Professional

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    Don't wuss out on me, man. Forget the "e-argument" - just plan a vacation around it - it's San Diego, for christ's sake - and play some tennis. You'll never get a better deal.

    I wouldn't know, I've never been. Skip it then.

    She's not a "superstar"... that's kind of the point, right? Nope, she doesn't know but I know she'll be happy to play you - she's a friend. Stop evading and let's start coordinating.
     
    #59
  10. flargosa

    flargosa Rookie

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    I should have worded my title clearer. Like, Why do strong WTA players use 11 oz frames. Since that goes against, what many say “Use the heaviest racquet you can handle”. WTA players can clearly can handle heavier frames. Anyway, good feedback, now it’s gone into WTA vs male club players.
     
    #60
  11. Boyd Clary

    Boyd Clary Rookie

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    So, that is what I thought you were asking (see my previous post) and my thoughts on why.

    One of the other comments back, is that they don't really use light rackets, just rackets painted to look like the lighter rackets. This implies some sexism on the racket companies (i.e. female players can play with any racket, but they think the women should play with lighter rackets than rec male players).

    IDK. I have read Genie B. plays with an off the shelf Babolat (no lead or craziness). Venus's blade is extra long but I am not sure that it is weighted up massively. But who knows?

    The next question is why don't male rec players play with lighter rackets...
     
    #61
  12. Frans Bleker

    Frans Bleker Rookie

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    Haha, he did not drop that far. I think you slightly underestimate female pro's ;)
     
    #62
  13. jm1980

    jm1980 G.O.A.T.

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    Has sureshs agreed to the "Audience with Sureshs" part of this event? :p
     
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  14. navigator

    navigator Professional

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    Just to be clear, I was kidding. Booger's the one who is more than slightly underestimating female pros.
     
    #64
  15. jm1980

    jm1980 G.O.A.T.

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    Welp, time to post this video I guess:

     
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    #65
  16. sportmac

    sportmac Rookie

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    I think it comes around to what you learn with. I grew up with heavy wood racquets. I'm not playing with that kind of weight now but I still prefer 11.5/11.8 area.

    I don't know about strength issues, I think it's more technique. The indoor courts I play on in winter have a bunch of young kids I get to see (I watched Taylor Townsend working with Zina for two winters) and there's a slight Asian girl who's probably 13/14 this year. She hits with a bunch of guys who are older (15/16) and quite a bit bigger. Still, she stands on the baseline taking their heavy spin and pummels it back. She's giving no ground to these guys who are 6- 8 feet behind the baseline. It's impressive to watch. So technique certainly has it's pluses.

    Of course at some point strength will come into play. Still, I don't think you can compare that kind of training with 3.5/4 players.
     
    #66
  17. navigator

    navigator Professional

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    ^^ I think everyone's seen that video - it's "TT famous." So it took her a while to adjust to his (relatively) terrible shots. Who among us hasn't occasionally had minor problems with a far inferior opponent. I give the guy credit - he's consistent and quick. Now, how would he do against a top-200 WTA player? A ridiculous blowout.
     
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  18. Praetorian

    Praetorian Professional

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    #68
  19. SteveI

    SteveI Legend

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    WTA.. not ITF.. and looks like she still won 6-2. This girl is a decent DI player and 800 in the world... Not a WTA player.
     
    #69
  20. jm1980

    jm1980 G.O.A.T.

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    #70
  21. CosmosMpower

    CosmosMpower Rookie

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    Dang 98 bucks for a first round loss in an event. She probably spent 4X that in gas to travel to the event.
     
    #71
  22. SteveI

    SteveI Legend

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    #72
  23. jm1980

    jm1980 G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, posting around 5 posts a day means I have no job :rolleyes:

    How about responding to the argument instead of posting a pointless ad hominem?
     
    #73
  24. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    I can easily swing a 16 oz hammer but when you start swinging one for hours it gets very tiring in a hurry. I don't think a world class woman athelete would ever be on par with a man in good shape. When I was in High School I could sprint faster than Wilma Rudolf who at the time was the best woman sprinter in the world. That's the reason women / girls can play men / boys sports but not the other way around.
     
    #74
  25. nytennisaddict

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    pretty certain this is a strength question, not a "can a 4.0 guy beat a WTA player" question :p

    i play with an 11.2oz racquet (head radical liquid metal), and i'm decently strong (bench 225+, easily pull my weight, squat >300)...

    while i could wield a 12oz+ racquet, i prefer a lighter racquet because i can generate more rhs (ie. i tend to swing out on everything, to generate-spin-for-control).

    the times i wished i had a heavier racquet (and experimented with one because of these reasons):
    * opponents were hitting a TON of spin, and moving me around the court, which was forcing me to take shorter backswings - which tended to land short
    * returning big and heavy spin serves... if i tried blocking it back, with a lighter racquet, results were unpredictable (heavier racquet made things more stable)
    * volleys - again against heavy spinning passing shots, having a heavier racquet made balls easier to control

    ultimatley i went back to a light frame since my style of play
    * i am not a hard core s&v'er,
    * i prefer grinding from the baseline with spin (which requires rhs),... wait for short ball then attack the net
    * i preferred countering big serves or big groundies with rhs and/or a firmer/slightly longer follow through...
    * also faster rhs lets me get to contact faster (less window for things to go wrong)

    that said... when using light racquets as a beginner there is a tendency to manipulate the racquet ("arm" the ball), vs. putting the racquet "in the slot" then letting the racquet do the work ("stroke" the ball)... so i prefer beginners and kids learn with a heavier racquet to avoid the temptation of doing wrist manipulations... then later, when the strokes are developed, can decide whether you prefer a lighter or heavier frame.
     
    #75
  26. nytennisaddict

    nytennisaddict Hall of Fame

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    buddy of mine i used to play with... used to play D1 (smoked me easily)
    he went to the bolletieri academy as a kid.
    i asked if he thought he'd ever try to go pro, or at least try to play futures...

    he said when he was 17, and already accepted to a D1 college... 12y old monica seles was beating him 7-5, 7-5...

    he said that's when he realized he didn't have a future in tennis after college.
     
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    #76
  27. kingcheetah

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    Look at the UTRs-- 4.5 men are 8-10. WTA women aren't.
     
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  28. navigator

    navigator Professional

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    Ok, here's his response (verbatim):

    "Serena would easily beat a 5.0, any female pro in the top 300 would totally crush a 4.5 USTA Player.
    Now a very good male college player would crush Serena. Hope I have brought some clarity to the
    Situation. Ha Ha... Take care buddy."

    For what it's worth, this guy's forgotten more about tennis in the last 5 minutes than 99.99% of the folks here know.
     
    #78
  29. n8dawg6

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    we need johnny mac to weigh in on this issue
     
    #79
  30. nytennisaddict

    nytennisaddict Hall of Fame

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    more realistic question is, would 12y-old V or S Williams beat a 4.5 male player... i'm guessing even odds, edge to the sisters.
     
    #80
  31. markwillplay

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    Uhhh...Andy is supposed to help her practice not beat her down. Sands is great, Andy can hit harder than he was. I will take him all day in that matchup.
     
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  32. Booger

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    Most of the 5.0's and 5.5's I know are or were good college players, but if he says top 300 wta could win in 4.5's, ok. It would be interesting to watch.
     
    #82
  33. Captain Ron

    Captain Ron Professional

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    That was great!
    Think I only saw Andy get two points (I know this was just edited highlights). Anyway, seemed like Bethanie could put the ball away against Andy whenever she needed two. (No disrespect to Andy who is an excellent player)
    I'm a 3.5 so their rally balls would be winners against me :(


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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    #83
  34. prjacobs

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    I agree. This guy's serve is way below 4.0. It's really weak. And she makes a ton of mistakes on low quality, routine shots.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
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  35. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    I'll do it! I will take the ring to Mordor.

    J
     
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  36. navigator

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    Haha... you and most others... but this is a Booger-specific offer. Of which he apparently will not avail himself. One wistfully wonders...
     
    #86
  37. Hydrocella

    Hydrocella Rookie

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    Are some of you joking? I'm with a female coach who was a former ranked junior in ONTARIO, not even Canada. I'm 4.0 and she can kick my butt any day. Tennis isn't only about sheer physicality, there are a variety of things - conditioning, feel, footwork, anticipation, patterns.

    Don't kid yourself the competitive nature of the pro tours entail these guys practice and train to get the best performances in match/pressure conditions. Sure ATP players would very likely cream WTA players, but unless you are also competing in those circuits don't kid yourself. Your 4.0, or 5.0 or 5.5 means very little.

    To the OP, I use a heavy frame [Pro Staff 85/90] to specifically get away with compact strokes. All I need to do is focus on early/clean contact and block back to get away with winning most of my rallies. The moment I try to really swing for the fences everything things to rot, and in fact lighter rackets make it worse. Heavy frames are easier once you develop feel/rhythm.
     
    #87
  38. jmnk

    jmnk Professional

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    Perhaps instead of watching the video for the nth time you should have read the notes on YouTube. The said player, the one you cannot possibly believe is NTRP 4.0, had 30-4 record the year that video was recorded, which earned him a bump to 4.5. So in a sense you are right, he is _not_ a 4.0 player (now, only if you did not include the second sentence....)
     
    #88
  39. kimguroo

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    this thread is going to wrong direction.
    It becomes men vs women.
    OP did not really present well for this thread but he was asking more like heavy racket vs light racket.
    High skilled player with light racket vs lower skilled player with heavy racket. WTA comparison was just a bad example. OP tried to point out that high skilled players use 11oz racket and why 3.5-4.0 players use heavy rackets.
     
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  40. navigator

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    That's funny because I hadn't read the notes on YouTube but when I've watched that video (maybe bits and pieces three separate times) I've thought, "This guy's strokes aren't perfect but the ball keeps coming back and with decent depth and he's quick... looks like a 4.5 to me." Three things which have been discussed here many times. One, it's hard to visually separate technique from where the ball actually lands and its frequency. Two, 99% of most folks' video exposure to tennis is of the professional variety so their brains can't adjust to rec level very well (so they systematically underestimate the level of rec players on video). Three, most commenters here have never seen themselves or their peers on video. They have no clue as to how "bad" they look relative to what they see in their brains.
     
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    #90
  41. jmnk

    jmnk Professional

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    make a mental note to himself "make a ridiculous statement about level of play of some player(s), pretend that I'm serious - may get an offer from @navigator to get a full-paid trip to San Diego (or perhaps even Mexico) to verify my play. Win/Win for everyone involved :) "
     
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    #91
  42. jm1980

    jm1980 G.O.A.T.

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    I think most people (myself included) didn't actually read the OP, and just jumped into the discussion

    He probably should have phrased it "Are males ranked 3.5 to 4.0 physically weaker than a WTA player?"
     
    #92
  43. NotSoSuper

    NotSoSuper Rookie

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    Posters here have a bit of a distorted view regarding level of recreational players.. Anything under 6.0 cannot play tennis with a successful professional woman.. nothing to do with weight of rackets lmfao or slight differences between 3.5-4-4.5
     
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  44. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    The top 3.5 male in the world could beat a young WTA 500 ranked player on a good day.
     
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  45. sportmac

    sportmac Rookie

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    Go out and watch some Division 1 NCAA women's tennis. No 3.5 player is going to beat them.
     
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  46. Praetorian

    Praetorian Professional

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    Only means he played other inflated 4.0 guys in my opinion. Look, I get it, it is what it is. In high school, at my peak, I was state ranked, but I was rated a 4.0 officially by USTA pros. The very top ranked kids, were God knows - they played open class Challenger events, some got scholarships to Bollatierri, and some went to have successful D1 careers. They whipped on me bad. I quit after HS, and fast forward I picked up a racket after 20 years to play in a 2.5 league just for fun. Long story short, they bumped me to the 5.0 league within 2 weeks - in which I got thumped all over the place, because it was comprised of former D1, and open class players. I was clearly not the player in HS, yet there I was. My conditioning was, or still is, poor, and any consistency I had is long gone. I have no time to train to play competitively now, so I just stick to recreational playing.

    He may be considered a 4.0/4.5, nowadays, but remember I said "nowadays".


    Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
     
    #96
  47. Praetorian

    Praetorian Professional

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    you are right, time to get back on point. I don't think it's a general rule that all 3.5-4.0 players use heavy rackets (almost all that I know, don't, and the ones that do, are wielding an RF97, becuase y'know, if it's good enough for GOAT). But there isn't any rule that says you have to use 11oz racket either. Regardless of skill level, if you know how to use the momentum of the mass of the racket, most will gravitate to using heavier racket. Keep in mind, some of us older folk started on wood rackets, and they were around 13+oz. We also tend to hit a flatter shot, so the ability to whip it up the back side of the ball for topspin, isn't that much of a requirement.
     
    #97
  48. nytennisaddict

    nytennisaddict Hall of Fame

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    only if he hired tonya harding before the match...

    [edit] lol, what is a "top 3.5 male in the world"... is that like an ATP pro sandbagging in the local 3.5 league? where does one go to compete in international 3.5 tournaments?
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017 at 6:05 AM
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    #98
  49. nytennisaddict

    nytennisaddict Hall of Fame

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    lol, or better yet,.. "As a 3.5 guy, why is it against conventional wisdom to play with lighter racquets?"
     
    #99
  50. nytennisaddict

    nytennisaddict Hall of Fame

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    lots of fragile male egos on here... :p
     

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