Are Nadal's successes really more iconic than Djokovic's?

[nolefam_2024]

Bro Novak freaking Djokovic was an amazing clay court player and is one year younger than Rafa. If anything the fact that Rafa had to beat Djokovic so much on clay makes his accomplishments even more ridiculous. And that’s before even mentioning Fed, himself a solid clay player.

Nole is third best clay player in open era.

 

[Mustard]

Nole is third best clay player in open era.

I think Muster and Kuerten would have something to say about that. Lendl and Wilander would agree with your statement, because they believe in continual improvement through the eras, or at least they say that. Wilander might say Alcaraz is better

 

[Slightly Biased Nadal Fan]

Disecting Nadal's success will inevitably bring us to the conclusion that 2/3 of it came on clay. Which isn't a problem per se, but than you have to face the uncomfortable truth that in the whole timeframe of his success (almost 20 years), he was the only natural claycourter out there. Not a single one who has the skillset traditionally required for clay has appeared for more than 20 years. Who was the next best thing? Ferrer? Was it luck? Maybe. Unprescedented turn of events for sure, especially when you consider the field most of the 90s claycourters had to go through to win a single RG, let alone multiple. In other words, he was the favorite 99% of the time and none of his wins came "against all odds" or anything. In the process, he undoubtedly had a handfull of good matches, but very few were really "epic" or "iconic", unless infinite fistpumping levels it up for you. That leaves us with 2005 Rome, 2006 Rome, 2013 RG, and surely 2009 RG that he lost.

As for his success elsewhere, it mostly came as a product of impoverished draws that coincided with his own good form, which itself was a side effect of picking and choosing the time and the place thus artificially adjusting his off clay schedule to maximize the potential gain. A fruitful strategy, but not neccessarily a honorable one, especially if in the end you're the one who ends up blaiming all the events skipped for losing the slam race. The direct consequence of aforementioned strategy are wins such as 2010 W, 2013 USO, 2017 USO etc.

Lastly, we come to his success indoors. Umm... Well... Yeah. I'm sure I got it all covered.

Eh I mean as far as natural clay courters he's THE natural clay courter gone super saiyan. Everything your natural clay courter does he did at a substantially higher level and playing him with that style was more prone to get bullied than actually put him in a spot of bother (only Diego really did this throughout his career once he was weakened a little bit and he didn't really even get that close to actually winning). The few times that style was effective was when Nadal himself wasn't as offensively refined on anything other than his FH in 05-06 and and it still came up short. Guys that were close to perfect players like Djoker/Fed (the former who legit has an all time great clay resume, both of which would likely supersede the body of work on clay anyone this side of Borg or Lendl w/o Rafa) or people that could bring and sustain heavy firepower off both wings like Soderling, Thiem, Zverev were the ones that fared better. Most of his clay losses or matches he was in a trouble/having to work more fit that bill or some big hitter just in a purple patch a la Mathieu RG06, Soderling 09 obv, Gulbis Rome and Brands RG 2013. Sure you can argue that the Ferrers of the world weren't as good a natural clay courter as the 90s guys like Muster, Bruguera, Courier, and people of that ilk but I struggle to see how that's more productive an archetype, no matter how good, in tackling Nadal on clay and putting somewhat of a cap on his winning there (maybe I can concede in bo3 but doubt it bo5).

His off clay resume is also being super downplayed here. His scheduling wasn't really deliberate to be fresh and ready for particular events until later in his career by like age 32-33ish. He pretty much played everything he could when health permitted. You can assess as much blame as you'd like for him being more streaky than you'd think for a player of his caliber but painting with broad strokes alluding to a deliberate attempt to inflate his title count and only pouncing when things opened up for him is disingenuous when he was pretty much a fixture at the back end of damn near every event he was playing 2008-early 2014 and then 2017-early 2022. Not to mention the obvious that while he was in his prime he had several stretches and tournaments that quite simply saw him play some of the greatest tennis that's ever been played (in both wins and losses he's gone through some gauntlet draws and/or taken down some very respectable to excellent versions of the other 2) that can hold up to any amount of scrutiny.

He's no all timer on indoor hc without a doubt, but he isn't as woeful as is made out to be. For one, he has a masters, there's no major that time of yr, and the biggest title there in WTF he easily could have a similar if not better resume there than Murray with a little luck. Literally the only difference in their resume there is Nadal's 2 yrs he made the final he played Peakerer in probably his best London WTF form and Djokovic in the midst of a war path that saw him win 28 straight through the 14 AO qf while Andy got Crapovic in the midst of a tailspin the one time he got to the final. Other than that, he's mostly been too burned out by end of yr to play or finish Bercy and/or WTF and when he has played, he's pretty consistently found himself in the QF or SF stage at least at those events. He had a bad WTF in 09 and 2011 (22 nosedived after Wimby and by then was in his present day washed form) and that's pretty much it.

 

[Lauren_Girl']

Now that Nadal has announced his retirement, the idea that he was the player with the highest number of iconic matches won has come back into fashion. Obviously, first of all, the 2008 Wimbledon final against Federer, but also for example the one against Medvedev at the 2022 Australian Open. Yet, thinking back over the careers of the big three, I think that of the 3, Djokovic was the one with the highest number of iconic matches won, which I will try to list some of;

2011 Sf Us Open;
The match where he saved 2 match points in response to Federer in the fifth set.

2012 Australian Open Final;
A battle that lasted almost 6 hours against Nadal to win the seventh consecutive direct clash.

Qf Australian Open 2013;
Vs Wawrinka, no holds barred battle part 2.

Monte Carlo 2013 final;
Against Nadal where he interrupted the Mallorcan's infinite hegemony in the Principality of Monaco.

Sf Wimbledon 2018;
 Another battle against Nadal decided in the fifth set, the day of Djokovic's definitive resurrection after two complicated years.

Wimbledon 2019 final;
Against Federer, need we say more?

Australian Open 2020 final;
The day Thiem put him in serious difficulty by going 2-1 ahead but the Serbian came out of it like a seasoned champion.

Sf Roland Garros 2021;
Another battle with Nadal, after being bullied in the first set he overturns the inertia of the match in an infinite third set and then closes it in 4 interrupting a streak of successes of the Spaniard in the Parisian slam that had lasted since 2017.

Roland Garros 2021 final;
He wins his second slam title on clay by coming back against Tsitsipas from a 2-0 disadvantage, a rarity.

Paris-Bercy 2021 final;
Against Medvedev, the Russian had recently given him the disappointment in the final of the US Open denying him the grand slam, the first set seems like the continuation of the New York final, but once again Djokovic finds the strength to react by winning the match and the tournament.

Cincinnati 2023 final;
Against Alcaraz, a memorable battle in which the Serbian in the second set already down by one found himself with his back to the wall several times but once again managed to turn it around immediately avenging the defeat in the Wimbledon final.

Paris 2024 Olympic final;
Here too there is no need to add anything else regarding what can be defined as the most iconic match of his career, a fairytale story brought to completion thanks to an unmistakable force of will against the opponent who a few weeks earlier had humiliated him in the Wimbledon final.

So no, the bearer of the most iconic matches won I think is Djokovic. What do you think?

He has the most 5 sets wins and highest percentage in Grand Slams. Even that Stepanek match (USO 2007) was iconic as far as I'm concerned. So many to pick in that list.
And so many iconic defeats (Wimbledon 2023, AO 2014, RG 2013 only to mention a few ones)

In Masters 1000 if you're putting Cincinnati 2023 you have to include Montreal 2007, Indian Wells 2014, Shanghaï 2012 and Miami 2011 too. That RR match vs Medvedev in 2022 was one of the most iconic for me because it was a dead rubber and he left his heart and his soul on the court to win that 3rd set, even though he''d already qualified for the semis... Could have easily tanked and rested before the last stages but nope.

IDK who has the most iconic matches between Djokovic and Nadal but that's certainly not a strong argument to separate them.

 

[Mustard]

Now that Nadal has announced his retirement, the idea that he was the player with the highest number of iconic matches won has come back into fashion.

Because it's the truth. He didn't win them all, but he certainly won most of the biggest matches, and had the highest highs.

Do people like yourself realize how hard Nadal had to work in 2005-2009 to not only hold his own against Federer on clay, but to eventually beat Federer in Wimbledon and Australian Open finals? Some people act now like it was a foregone conclusion all along, when it most certainly was not. The attitude at the time from most fans was that it was only a matter of time before Federer sweeps aside Nadal everywhere, including on clay.

I can remember 2011, when Djokovic was beating Nadal time after time. There were people then saying that Nadal would never beat Djokovic ever again. Nadal beat Djokovic 6 times out of 7 matches in 2012-2013, and regained world number 1. Nadal beat Djokovic in 4 consecutive matches in majors from 2012-2014, after what Nadal had previously done against Federer.

Nadal even got his own back in 2022 for Djokovic "figuring him out" at the 2021 French Open.

Djokovic fans should count their lucky stars about the 2012 Australian Open and 2018 Wimbledon, or they'd have no case.

 

[fedfan24]

Nadal, then Federer.

 

[vex]

Nole is third best clay player in open era.

I agree

 

[MissileBackHand99]

For me it's Nadal. Bursting onto the scene as a teen phenom, winning the French in his first try at 19; beating Fed 4 years in a row to 4-peat; becoming the first to win the Channel Slam in almost 30 years; becoming the youngest to win all 4 Slams; his 8 consecutive Monte Carlo titles, 10 Rome titles, comebacks from so many injuries that would've been career ending for others (esp the 2012 leg injury that MANY swore would end his career); the Miracle in Melbourne 2022 Aussie Open, the rivalry with Fed across all surfaces, etc