Are sandbaggers really just the best players at level?

5sets

Semi-Pro
I'll be honest. I hit the appeal button. Lol. After watching 4.5 play at the Texas Adult Masters (I was there for 4.0) I just didn't think I belonged on the same court as those guys.

The computer disagreed though, and my appeal was denied. So 4.5 it is.
I wish there was an unlike thumbs down button on here. Lol, I knew you would try
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
Sandbagging is really not as big of a deal as you all are making it seem. There are always going to be players at the top of any level, by definition. It doesn’t mean they are throwing matches.
 

5sets

Semi-Pro
Sandbagging is really not as big of a deal as you all are making it seem. There are always going to be players at the top of any level, by definition. It doesn’t mean they are throwing matches.
Correct a 4.49 should always beat a 4.00 6-0 6-0 but we are talking about by definition those that purposely throw games or even throw matches. That’s what a Sandbagger is.
 

5sets

Semi-Pro
4.01 I meant. Yes each level has a vast range definitely......There’s a 4.5 team in our League last Spring who purposely got smacked every match so they could play 4.0 this Spring.
I really hope they don’t make it to Nationals like that Dallas that was mentioned tried to
 

MaxTennis

Rookie
I ran a ballbag report on your nnumbes and it shows you are between 4.55 and 4.95.
I personally prefer UTR a lot more because I play Open tournaments as well as league, so it captures all of my results.

I’m 10.49 UTR right now in singles vs 4.52 in TennisRecord.
 

5sets

Semi-Pro
My TennisRecord is 4.52.

Just for kicks, I tried appealing down and got denied.
So are we all in agreement that Tennis Record is + or - .10 on actual USTA dNTRP? I posed the over/under question in another thread and didn’t get much of an answer
 

BallBag

Semi-Pro
That’s a big spread, how did you get those numbers?

I personally prefer UTR a lot more because I play Open tournaments as well as league, so it captures all of my results.

I’m 10.49 UTR right now in singles vs 4.52 in TennisRecord.
Appeal range is 0.05 and you got denied up and down. Using statistical regression and the central limit theorem, I deduced that you rating is 4.75 +- 0.20 with a 3 sigma uncertainty.
 

Chalkdust

Rookie
I don't get why USTA allows automatic appeals. It's one thing to allow players to submit an appeal for cases where there was an injury or similar situation where the player has regressed. But why allow someone to go back to a lower level for absolutely no reason?
 

5sets

Semi-Pro
I don't get why USTA allows automatic appeals. It's one thing to allow players to submit an appeal for cases where there was an injury or similar situation where the player has regressed. But why allow someone to go back to a lower level for absolutely no reason?
Thank you. That’s what I’ve been saying. Reward those who improve. Free breakfast at IHOP or something, lol.
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
I don't get why USTA allows automatic appeals. It's one thing to allow players to submit an appeal for cases where there was an injury or similar situation where the player has regressed. But why allow someone to go back to a lower level for absolutely no reason?
Because the appeal range is a statistical margin of error. It is players who they were not really sure should be bumped.
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
Thank you. That’s what I’ve been saying. Reward those who improve. Free breakfast at IHOP or something, lol.
To play devil’s advocate, the appeal lets guys continue to play league tennis who are too borderline to find a new team at the next level.

It’s not about improving. There’s no way to improve without getting matches in the first place.
 

Chalkdust

Rookie
Because the appeal range is a statistical margin of error. It is players who they were not really sure should be bumped.
I don't buy it. There is no stats involved. There is a well defined function (the rating algorithm). You feed it inputs (starting ratings and results) and it spits out an output. The result is what it is.
I think the auto appeal is just there to appease players who would rather keep dominating at a lower level (at the expense of others at that level) rather than suck it up and take their knocks at the higher level. If they are really out of their league then they will get bumped back down the following year.
 

Chalkdust

Rookie
To play devil’s advocate, the appeal lets guys continue to play league tennis who are too borderline to find a new team at the next level.
So they end up taking up spots at the lower level thus shutting out some players at the bottom of that level. So how does this result in a net positive?
 

Chalkdust

Rookie
How will they get enough matches to get bumped down? I know two guys who got bumped to 4.5 and had to sit out of spring league the next year.
An unfortunate situation. But if instead they played 4.0 they would be taking up spots at the expense of lower level 4.0s who now would not be able to get enough matches to get bumped down to 3.5. So it just shifts the problem to someone else.
 
I don't buy it. There is no stats involved. There is a well defined function (the rating algorithm). You feed it inputs (starting ratings and results) and it spits out an output. The result is what it is.
I think the auto appeal is just there to appease players who would rather keep dominating at a lower level (at the expense of others at that level) rather than suck it up and take their knocks at the higher level. If they are really out of their league then they will get bumped back down the following year.
I'm pretty sure it's a sliding scale and not a hard cut off (i.e. 4.05) like others mentioned above. "You feed it inputs." Sometimes people don't have a lot of inputs to feed it. In those situations the margin of error is larger, near 4.10. Then the more matches you've played, the smaller your appeal range is. Finally, if I remember correctly (probably not), you can't appeal if you've played a certain amount of matches a.k.a. "The result is what it is". I think all in all it takes into account what you're saying while realizing that people with fewer matches may not be rated 100% true to their skill due to lack of results. Seems fair.
 

Chalkdust

Rookie
I'm pretty sure it's a sliding scale and not a hard cut off (i.e. 4.05) like others mentioned above. "You feed it inputs." Sometimes people don't have a lot of inputs to feed it. In those situations the margin of error is larger, near 4.10. Then the more matches you've played, the smaller your appeal range is. Finally, if I remember correctly (probably not), you can't appeal if you've played a certain amount of matches a.k.a. "The result is what it is". I think all in all it takes into account what you're saying while realizing that people with fewer matches may not be rated 100% true to their skill due to lack of results. Seems fair.
To be clear, I'm not saying that the rating is 100% reflective of skill. Just that it's formula driven and thus an absolute result. Which of course is only as good as the formula and the data fed into it.

So yeah some people might end up with a rating higher than their actual skill, and some with lower. Such is life. I still think auto appeals do much more harm than good.
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
To be clear, I'm not saying that the rating is 100% reflective of skill. Just that it's formula driven and thus an absolute result. Which of course is only as good as the formula and the data fed into it.

So yeah some people might end up with a rating higher than their actual skill, and some with lower. Such is life. I still think auto appeals do much more harm than good.
Whether appeals are good or not is a tough subject.

There may be legitimate situations where appealing down is a good thing, particularly if a player is unable to play at the higher level due to no teams at that level or a actual "mistake" spit out by the algorithm where someone can't really compete at the higher level but one of the strange situations that can occur does. If being bumped up and not having an avenue to appeal down causes someone to quit playing, that isn't a good thing.

On the other hand, it is certainly something that can be abused if every bumped up player is hitting the appeal button and some that genuinely can compete at the higher level are having it granted. Just like an algorithm "mistake" could bump someone up inappropriately, an algorithm "mistake" could end up having someone close enough to the threshold to appeal down when it shouldn't have, and now this mistake is compounded by the player being able to appeal down.

On the whole, I think there is probably less good about appeals than bad and I'd vote for doing away with them, or at least doing away with auto-appeals and making players file manual appeals, but there are issues with that too as how do you ensure appeal review is done fairly and equitably, and where does a committee draw the line.
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
People want to play on teams with their friends and social groups. Most would be fine if new teams were easy to find. But they aren’t. All a new potential captain has to do is look you up on TR or TLS, see that you were a level below last season, see who you lost to, and all the sudden you aren’t getting a call back.
 

Chalkdust

Rookie
People want to play on teams with their friends and social groups. Most would be fine if new teams were easy to find. But they aren’t. All a new potential captain has to do is look you up on TR or TLS, see that you were a level below last season, see who you lost to, and all the sudden you aren’t getting a call back.
All you say is true, but applies equally to those already near the bottom of a level who struggle to get playing time partly because many spots are taken by appeal adjusted players.
Anyway I respect your opinion and we can agree to disagree
 

Matthew ATX

Semi-Pro
I wish there was an unlike thumbs down button on here. Lol, I knew you would try
Haha. Everyone did. Literally, everyone. I knew mine wouldn't be granted.

I'm actually excited about the match play I will get at 4.5. Finding all new teams and tournament partners now that I'm not even remotely in demand? That, I am not enjoying so far. I feel like I'm standing on the corner with a "Will play 4.5 for food" sign.
 

zipplock

Semi-Pro
To me sandbagging is more than just manipulating a ranking, it's the psychology behind it. To me, a sandbagger is someone that values a WIN over a weaker opponent more than the CHALLENGE of playing against an equal/stronger opponent. I view this as a lack of honor, lack of personal integrity.

There are two kinds of people in this world: those that LOVE winning more than they hate losing, and those that HATE losing more than they love winning. Sandbaggers are the first, win at all costs. The second take a loss as motivation to work harder, improve themselves. A sandbagger doesn't have the self-belief to choose this path.
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
To me sandbagging is more than just manipulating a ranking, it's the psychology behind it. To me, a sandbagger is someone that values a WIN over a weaker opponent more than the CHALLENGE of playing against an equal/stronger opponent. I view this as a lack of honor, lack of personal integrity.

There are two kinds of people in this world: those that LOVE winning more than they hate losing, and those that HATE losing more than they love winning. Sandbaggers are the first, win at all costs. The second take a loss as motivation to work harder, improve themselves. A sandbagger doesn't have the self-belief to choose this path.
That really has nothing to do with it
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
Nothing? Nothing?? Ok. Enlighten me. Since what I described has NOTHING to do with sandbagging, what is the EXACT cause of sandbagging?
Haters. Guys can’t win at their level, so they start calling anyone who beats them a sandbagger or a pusher. It’s like clockwork. Anytime a guy starts talking about sandbagging, just pull up his recent USTA profile and there is like a 100% chance he just posted a 1-1 loss.
 

zipplock

Semi-Pro
So your position is that there is no such thing as a sandbagger, just some butthurt player that lost something? Ok. Enjoy your black and white world.
 

5sets

Semi-Pro
Haters. Guys can’t win at their level, so they start calling anyone who beats them a sandbagger or a pusher. It’s like clockwork. Anytime a guy starts talking about sandbagging, just pull up his recent USTA profile and there is like a 100% chance he just posted a 1-1 loss.
Now you’re describing two different entities. Haters and Sandbaggers. Just because Haters call everyone who beat them a Sandbagger does not mean actual Sandbaggers don’t exist. These are the ones that hit that appeal down button to coast through another season at 12-3 rather than continue to improve and play at their computer generated level and face a 1-4 season as they will likely get less playing time.
 

Chalkdust

Rookie
It's true though that there are people who would rather be at a level where they are able to win without playing their best, than be at a level where they have little chance unless they are playing their best.
 

dcdoorknob

Hall of Fame
So are we all in agreement that Tennis Record is + or - .10 on actual USTA dNTRP? I posed the over/under question in another thread and didn’t get much of an answer
Definitely not in agreement. I'm a 3.19 on TR, have a teammate who is a 3.14, both bumped to 4.0. So it was off by >.30 in both cases and >.35 in my teammates case.
 

dcdoorknob

Hall of Fame
Not all bump ups even dominated at their lower level, for whatever that's worth, especially this year in sections with an large % of bump ups like Southern and Texas. By my best count I went 11-10 in league matches that counted towards USTA rating this past year, all 3.5 matches, never playing up. Got bumped to 4.0, had my appeal down granted. I was surprised to be bumped and thought a .523 winning percentage was pretty indicative that I was already at the right level. Good god, I don't know how I would have ever convinced a local 4.0 team to play me ever after going 11-10 at 3.5 the previous year.
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
Not all bump ups even dominated at their lower level, for whatever that's worth, especially this year in sections with an large % of bump ups like Southern and Texas. By my best count I went 11-10 in league matches that counted towards USTA rating this past year, all 3.5 matches, never playing up. Got bumped to 4.0, had my appeal down granted. I was surprised to be bumped and thought a .523 winning percentage was pretty indicative that I was already at the right level. Good god, I don't know how I would have ever convinced a local 4.0 team to play me ever after going 11-10 at 3.5 the previous year.
Yes, in all likelihood you were a "Texas" bump up, but 3.19 was still way too low for you.

But what are we to take away from the USTA making such a radical bump up in Texas? Yes, Texas has done well at 3.5 the past few years, and the usual year-end calculations should take that into account, but it appears they did more than that. It is almost like they decided to punish a good portion of the 3.5s in Texas with bump ups for the crimes of the few.
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
Good god, I don't know how I would have ever convinced a local 4.0 team to play me ever after going 11-10 at 3.5 the previous year.
Doesn’t matter. According to this site, you are weak for appealing. Unsporting, and just another sandbagger. Instead of appealing, you should sit out of rec tennis until a 4.0 team takes a risk on you.
 

dcdoorknob

Hall of Fame
But what are we to take away from the USTA making such a radical bump up in Texas? Yes, Texas has done well at 3.5 the past few years, and the usual year-end calculations should take that into account, but it appears they did more than that. It is almost like they decided to punish a good portion of the 3.5s in Texas with bump ups for the crimes of the few.
I do agree with this. Why should people across the entire state be bumped because some captain and team in Houston spends all their free time trying to game the system and wins nationals?
 

Matthew ATX

Semi-Pro
Not all bump ups even dominated at their lower level, for whatever that's worth, especially this year in sections with an large % of bump ups like Southern and Texas. By my best count I went 11-10 in league matches that counted towards USTA rating this past year, all 3.5 matches, never playing up. Got bumped to 4.0, had my appeal down granted. I was surprised to be bumped and thought a .523 winning percentage was pretty indicative that I was already at the right level. Good god, I don't know how I would have ever convinced a local 4.0 team to play me ever after going 11-10 at 3.5 the previous year.
One of my teammates had a 22% win percentage at 18+. 62% at 40+. He did okay in tournaments; one MZ win (playing with me) and two losses in the finals (to me) playing with high rated players but definitely didn't dominate. Finished at #10 in the rankings. TR has him at 3.78. Bumped to 4.5. Appeal denied.
 

5sets

Semi-Pro
I do agree with this. Why should people across the entire state be bumped because some captain and team in Houston spends all their free time trying to game the system and wins nationals?
But if people all across Texas got bumped from 3.5 to 4.0 doesn’t that mean they will be facing the same opponents in 2020 during the regular season that they did in 2019? ??? Embrace the bump up and things will work out. When a MLB player gets sent down to the Minor Leagues to work on his game for a bit does he tell his manager to keep him there or does he work to get stronger so he can play where he belongs again?
 

Matthew ATX

Semi-Pro
But if people all across Texas got bumped from 3.5 to 4.0 doesn’t that mean they will be facing the same opponents in 2020 during the regular season that they did in 2019? ??? Embrace the bump up and things will work out. When a MLB player gets sent down to the Minor Leagues to work on his game for a bit does he tell his manager to keep him there or does he work to get stronger so he can play where he belongs again?
No... All the 4.0's that didn't get bumped to 4.5 (85%) are still in 4.0. So that's who the fresh bumps from 3.5 will mostly be playing.
 

5sets

Semi-Pro
To each his own I guess. I’ve said it before, I’d rather have competitive matches at a higher level and lose than win all my matches comfortably at a lower level. I mean is it even exercise winning 2 and 3 once a week for 12 weeks or however long the season is?
 

Matthew ATX

Semi-Pro
Well the problem is, I don't think some of these unfair bumps are going to have many competitive matches at the next level. I think Texas reached a good ways too far. They definitely weren't winning 2&3 week in and week out. The one I mentioned wasn't winning much at all in league.
 

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
So can there exist a female sandbagger?

Every woman I know that got a bump down appealed back up.
Most women I know who believe they are at the top of a level and didn't get bumped hit the appeal up button ... many succeeded.

Perhaps at the 4.5 level it changes, but definitely the 3.0/3.5/4.0 world all seem to want a bump up and consider a bump down to be a crushing blow.
 
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