Are the WTA players not strong enough for the WW forehand?

[TheCheese]

I think the reason the ATP style forehand is so rare is because the WTA style is so much easier when you're first starting. Of course, when you get better it's a much riskier shot with a less desirable outcome, but by that time most players are not going to change.

The WTA style is just pushing through the ball while rotating at the elbow. It's very simple in concept, but very difficult to control because it takes perfect timing and positioning.

The ATP style allows the forearm and shoulder to store elastic energy as it lags behind and then when the arm comes through it allows players to create massive amounts of racket head speed. It also allows players to simultaneously increase the amount of spin with pace, rather than trading one for the other. It's a much more forgiving stroke, gives way more control, and gives you way more options. It's just harder to learn, so not many people bother.

And also, yes, Raonic's forehand mechanics are bad and basically WTA style. He can't get spin without trading a ton of pace, similar to roddick.

 

[dominikk1985]

so let's make a List of ATP FHs in the WTA:

Stosur, Schiavone, Kuznetsova, henin, mauresmo

others that maybe qualify:
Schnyder http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzyNQFDHtTQ
Na li http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIfYUSE0J4Y

also a lot of the germans:
Goerges http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpTm3P3yBRI
kerber and barthel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEDQJYVjGcs
groenefeld http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oHR_Z2dgtM

so actually there are quite a lot of players with such a forehand.

 

[eliza]

I'm not saying that they cannot hit it but they often lack Penetration.

see schiavone. she basically uses an ATP FH (pronated Loop take back, across brushing with a closed racket face, ww finish)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_yc3lylsho

but her FH is not really penetrating (on average, sometimes she crushes a ball). she is a small Person anyway so she is probably wasting her energy into spin (OK she still won a slam)

The question should be directed to a female player (who knows her body better?). But allow me to integrate an info on coaching tennis in Italy. Schiavone is not an exception, but the rule. The "lack of penetration" (your perception of) can be noticed also in men (next time watch an Italian male player).
It is too bad that the industry of coaching has been insofar dominated by misconceptions on what a girl can and cannot do.

 

[TCF]

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[luvforty]

during the evolution process, the women's job was to pick fruits and berries and carry babies... speed is not required.

men had to hunt.. that's why spin makes sense because they can chase down flat balls.

 

[eliza]

TCF, you picked my post prior to my correction. I have no intention to pick on any given coach (also b/c he who was named is not present. Fortunately, nowadays girls have truly a magnificent variety of choices in training and coaching, supported not by mere visual comments but bio-mechanical studies. My best wishes to your girl.

 

[TCF]

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[comeback]

This is a great thread. As a 4.5 tournament player serve and volley, continental grip, lots of slice from both sides, old school 62 years old..i have been practicing the modern WW forehand with a semi western the last 6 months against the wall and in some matches with mixed results..When i do flatten it out ie WTA style i like it better especially on return of serve..The excessive wrist on the WW and poly strings necessary takes a toll on us seniors..It takes a strong fast whip to hit back a high hard topspin forehand.
Another thing to address is where the player stands. Fed ,Djok, Agassi stand up on the baseline taking the ball on the rise and SNAP..
Ferrer, Murray are back further, let the ball drop a little more.
Here are 2 WTA forehands from Capriati and Hingis I'm now trying to copy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfi7Ht1vhpk Capriati

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCz69qhmZWc Hingis

 

[rkelley]

This is a great thread. As a 4.5 tournament player serve and volley, continental grip, lots of slice from both sides, old school 62 years old..i have been practicing the modern WW forehand with a semi western the last 6 months against the wall and in some matches with mixed results..When i do flatten it out ie WTA style i like it better especially on return of serve..The excessive wrist on the WW and poly strings necessary takes a toll on us seniors..It takes a strong fast whip to hit back a high hard topspin forehand.

You might try a blended string bed. I use a Luxilon Rough in the mains and Babolat Xcel in the crosses. It really softens up the string bed but you can still get the big spin.

 

[dominikk1985]

This is a great thread. As a 4.5 tournament player serve and volley, continental grip, lots of slice from both sides, old school 62 years old..i have been practicing the modern WW forehand with a semi western the last 6 months against the wall and in some matches with mixed results..When i do flatten it out ie WTA style i like it better especially on return of serve..The excessive wrist on the WW and poly strings necessary takes a toll on us seniors..It takes a strong fast whip to hit back a high hard topspin forehand.
Another thing to address is where the player stands. Fed ,Djok, Agassi stand up on the baseline taking the ball on the rise and SNAP..
Ferrer, Murray are back further, let the ball drop a little more.
Here are 2 WTA forehands from Capriati and Hingis I'm now trying to copy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfi7Ht1vhpk Capriati

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCz69qhmZWc Hingis

Isn't hingis more of a ww FH?

 

[TheCheese]

I spent lots of time with Macci. He and other coaches give the girls the option. We are not dictators. We allow them to hit with topspin just like the boys. We show them both styles....and we also do that for the smaller boys.

But the fact is we also have 20 plus years of observing the results. In most cases the girls end up getting destroyed in the 16s-18s. The big girls wait for the topspin balls and crush them.

The fact is most girls can not generate the power needed to make topspin a weapon rather than a liability. We do what we can, strength training, etc. But the results are what they are. The girls for the most part with more penetrating forehands go further than the ones who do not adjust.

I have an 8 year old daughter and we train no differently than the boys at this point. But as she ages up, we will monitor things and see what adjustments are needed.

I disagree that it's all about a girl's upper body strength. Look at Roddick. He's obviously a big, strong guy but was unable to generate any significant power when going for a heavy topspin shot.

It's really about his technique. Just like many WTA players, Roddick would have to either hit a loopy topspin shot or a much more risky and powerful flat shot.

Look at Fed/Nadal/Djoko/Henin. When they hit hard, they can do it with pace AND spin. It's not such a clear tradeoff.

 

[dominikk1985]

I disagree that it's all about a girl's upper body strength. Look at Roddick. He's obviously a big, strong guy but was unable to generate any significant power when going for a heavy topspin shot.

It's really about his technique. Just like many WTA players, Roddick would have to either hit a loopy topspin shot or a much more risky and powerful flat shot.

Look at Fed/Nadal/Djoko/Henin. When they hit hard, they can do it with pace AND spin. It's not such a clear tradeoff.

yes, there is a clear tradeoff. any ounce of energy that goes into spin doesn't go into linear velocity, even with the modern FH. You cannot beat physics. more spin = less velocity

However it is not about strength per se but about RHS. To hit hard and spinny you simply have to generate a lot of RHS.

there are quite a few factors for RHS:
-technique (using the whole kinematic chain, getting separation and to a smaller degree also the micro moves of the arm we discuss here all the time
-strength
-leverage (long arms, height...)

you can compensate for one with the other to some degree (see henin -although she was very strong later in her career for her size) but to hit a really heavy ball you usually need all 3 things. few women have that but some do (stosur when she has a good day for example).

 

[TCF]

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[eliza]

Their stance is somewhat different, you don't know the speed of the ball in each case, you don't know what the intent is, etc. You cannot just compare two still photos.

+1.

Also read about "strong grip", but with WWFH and FW grip is absolutely loose.

 

[eliza]

My post refers to juniors, not pros that train for life for tennis. In regards to juniors, limited training, we play the percentages. Thats all a coach can do, we can not require massive amounts of strength training or force them into technique they do not like. Most kids we get for a limited amount of time with a limited interest in development.

In MOST cases, not all, the girls who rely on topspin like the boys will flat line. Their balls will start to sit up and be crushed where as the boys continue to develop their strength and their topspin remains effective.

Sure, technique plays a part. But after 20 years of seeing it, and Macci seeing it for 30 years.....we know we need to play the percentages and be ready to teach the girls more penetrating forehands when/if the time comes.

And you wonder why Tennis is in state we all lament..........