Are there advantages to firm wrist on the forehand?

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Championships+Wimbledon+2008+11P13P1E9Bbl.jpg


Bend those knees Rog!

J
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Post #46 seems to show whippy wrists and very upright little bent legs, feet very close together.
My forehand is terrible, but I have a wide feet stance (maybe 25"), and mucho bent knees compared to that photo. And very little wrist layback since my left wrist doesn't lay back.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
^^^ His feet are much further apart than it looks in the still. It is an optical illusion.

If you start a shot with your knees bent, and hit the ball with your knees bent, you didn't accomplish anything by bending your knees except getting lower.

J
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
The two pics on post #46 are not of the same shot. Both forehands, yes.
Both pics, seems knees are very straight and feet close together.
The pic of Fed, and we don't need to help Fed with his forehands, shows a much wider base of the feet.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Oh, golf....
You start your backswing with the legs barely bent.
You finish your stroke with the legs barely bent.
In between, you drive your hips forward with the legs, with a twisting motion, and hit the ball using the kinetic chain WITHOUT lift at all.
I see plenty of modern players lift as they hit the ball. Not for me, I'm 60 with beat up legs, ankles, and feet. Maybe, hence the poor forehand.
Do you need LIFT with your knees for a forehand, or is DRIVE more important?
 

aimr75

Hall of Fame
Jolly, thanks for the comments

LeeD, i was simply illustrating one aspect ive been working on which is to try keep my wrist from being rigid, but i know i have many things to work on with my swing, as do most of us.. I dont think ive ever stated my strokes are where they should be, i have many things to work on :)
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
I'm not criticising your laid back wrists. I WISH I could to that. I'm not really criticising your upright stance and narrow feet, just an observation and something I can do also.
It's possible to have a laid back wrist before striking the ball, then a firm wrist at impact. You only tighten your grip at impact.
Remember, I keep saying my forehand sucks, which it does.
 

aimr75

Hall of Fame
I'm not criticising your laid back wrists. I WISH I could to that. I'm not really criticising your upright stance and narrow feet, just an observation and something I can do also.
It's possible to have a laid back wrist before striking the ball, then a firm wrist at impact. You only tighten your grip at impact.
Remember, I keep saying my forehand sucks, which it does.

yeah, my goal is to try and be relaxed while hitting, which includes my wrist.. its something i didnt do before, but at the very least my wrist isnt so rigid as it used to be

Here is a shot sequence from behind..

swingv.jpg
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Yea you look relaxed and balanced.
I can't get balanced without a wide spread apart feet stance, as 5'11" and 150lbs. is pretty easy to topple over.
 

Ripper014

Hall of Fame
^^^ His feet are much further apart than it looks in the still. It is an optical illusion.

If you start a shot with your knees bent, and hit the ball with your knees bent, you didn't accomplish anything by bending your knees except getting lower.

J

I agree... the stroke is ok... the weight transfer is obvious in both pictures... and being that the ball is as high as it is... his stance is a comfortable one for him... no real need for the deep knee bend. Not how I hit the ball... but it seems like it is an efficient way for him to hit the ball.
 

mikeler

Moderator
I think my Golfers Elbow (GE) is because I'm trying to turn my wrist too far back to get extra topspin on my forehand backswing. I'm thinking of locking my wrist on future forehands. Maybe that will help with the pain.
 

KenC

Hall of Fame
I'm looking at those pictured shots where both Fed and the TT poster have their arm completely straight, as in a 180 degree angle at the elbow. If that doesn't lead to TE I would be really surprised.
 
C

chico9166

Guest
yeah, my goal is to try and be relaxed while hitting, which includes my wrist.. its something i didnt do before, but at the very least my wrist isnt so rigid as it used to be

Here is a shot sequence from behind..

swingv.jpg

I actually really like the looks of this forehand.
 

aimr75

Hall of Fame
I'm looking at those pictured shots where both Fed and the TT poster have their arm completely straight, as in a 180 degree angle at the elbow. If that doesn't lead to TE I would be really surprised.

Ive never gotten TE.. dont think a straight arm technique causes it.. It would be a good bet Federer hasnt gotten TE using a straight arm :)
 

drakulie

Talk Tennis Guru
aim, thanks for sharing the pics. Love the extension you get on your FH.

Would you say you have a lot of spin on your FH?? I ask because your racquet face never faces the ground before impact. Not that one has to do this to impact spin, but was just curious.
 
C

chico9166

Guest
aim, thanks for sharing the pics.
Love the extension you get on your FH.
Would you say you have a lot of spin on your FH?? I ask because your racquet face never faces the ground before impact. Not that one has to do this to impact spin, but was just curious.

Yup, one of the advantages of a straight arm, is that the ideal contact point, IS (MORE OR LESS) at the point of maximum extension. So if you can meet your contact point requirement, you get a real long line of acceleration and real "plow through ability."
 
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Bungalo Bill

G.O.A.T.
Ive never gotten TE.. dont think a straight arm technique causes it.. It would be a good bet Federer hasnt gotten TE using a straight arm :)

The straight arm technique does increase a players risk to get tennis elbow.

In order to reduce this risk, a player needs to understand what needs to be done.

The main keys to hitting like Federer are:

1. You must maintain an elastic wrist area. The reason for this is just before contact you want the elasticity in the wrist to allow the hand to accelerate forward for the impact with the ball. This release helps reduce shock that could be sent to the elbow if you maintained a firm wrist and arm.

2. The arm needs to be relaxed through the entire motion and even as the arm extends in the forward portion of the swing.

3. A player needs to make contact with his elbow in front of the body plane. This is usually something that doesn't need to be taught as players will do this if they are doing the steps before reasonably correct. However, this is a check point that a coach needs to watch and make sure the player is doing.

If a player performs these main areas, the straight-arm is fine provided other things check out that support it.
 
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aimr75

Hall of Fame
aim, thanks for sharing the pics. Love the extension you get on your FH.

Would you say you have a lot of spin on your FH?? I ask because your racquet face never faces the ground before impact. Not that one has to do this to impact spin, but was just curious.

Drak, i can generate a pretty good amount of spin, but with the way i hit its not hard to hit flat as well..

When you mention the racquet face not facing the ground, at what point of the swing are you referring to? in the fourth pic, the position is more or less in that 'pat the dog' position where the racquet is pointing to the ground

The straight arm technique does increase a players risk to get tennis elbow.

In order to reduce this risk, a player needs to understand what needs to be done.

The main keys to hitting like Federer are:

1. You must maintain an elastic wrist area. The reason for this is just before contact you want the elasticity in the wrist to allow the hand to accelerate forward for the impact with the ball. This release helps reduce shock that could be sent to the elbow if you maintained a firm wrist and arm.

2. The arm needs to be relaxed through the entire motion and even as the arm extends in the forward portion of the swing.

3. A player needs to make contact with his elbow in front of the body plane. This is usually something that doesn't need to be taught as players will do this if they are doing the steps before that reasonably correct. However, this is a check point that a coach needs to watch and make sure the player is doing.

If a player performs these main areas, the straight-arm is fine provided other things check out the support it.


Interesting, thanks BB, never really thought about it since ive never really felt any real TE issues.. in the still shots, would you say these checkpoints are met? or too hard to tell?
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
The reason for this is just before contact you want the elasticity in the wrist to allow the hand to accelerate forward for the impact with the ball.
Fed slo mo vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvZ7prb43Lk&feature=related

Looks more like a radial deviation in the wrist from the 4-7 sec frames than a flexion movement , flexion being what you would expect from the wrist "catching up" in an elastic response.

IMO, the flexion and extension movements in general need to be avoided in tennis strokes, while the radial deviation and Ulnar deviation can be useful to add acceleration and spin without pushing the ball out. Yes, given the ability of the wrist to move in a wide variety of paths, there will be overlap to some degree, so this is a general way of looking at it.
 

drakulie

Talk Tennis Guru
Drak, i can generate a pretty good amount of spin, but with the way i hit its not hard to hit flat as well..

When you mention the racquet face not facing the ground, at what point of the swing are you referring to? in the fourth pic, the position is more or less in that 'pat the dog' position where the racquet is pointing to the ground

aimr, thanks! Yeah, I saw that photo. I was referring more to the racquet face being closed as you approach the ball with your forward swing.

For instance, in my FH I have my racquet face closed longer than you do. Was just curious if you felt you get a lot of spin.
 

aimr75

Hall of Fame
aimr, thanks! Yeah, I saw that photo. I was referring more to the racquet face being closed as you approach the ball with your forward swing.

For instance, in my FH I have my racquet face closed longer than you do. Was just curious if you felt you get a lot of spin.

ah right.. im not too sure how much it plays a part in spin, maybe somebody can chime in on that.. id be interested to know

here is a shot sequence of fed.. but please, dont take this in any way me comparing my swing to his since that would be ridiculous.. i just thought id show that federer seems to have the face opened for quite some time in the forward swing.. as we know, he can generate crazy spin.. so, im not sure what the answer is

fedxd.jpg
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
ah right.. im not too sure how much it plays a part in spin, maybe somebody can chime in on that.. id be interested to know

here is a shot sequence of fed.. but please, dont take this in any way me comparing my swing to his since that would be ridiculous.. i just thought id show that federer seems to have the face opened for quite some time in the forward swing.. as we know, he can generate crazy spin.. so, im not sure what the answer is

Probably not crazy spin on this one of Fed or the one of you due to not going much below the ball in the loop.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
^^^ Racquet is waist high at the drop, contact is shoulder high. I would think any lower would be superfluous.

J
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
^^^ Racquet is waist high at the drop, contact is shoulder high. I would think any lower would be superfluous.

J

Maybe,
but I think the camera angle is deceiving and the contact is well below the shoulder and the loop is slightly above the waist. In any respect, the swing path as it approaches the contact is clearly not steep by any standard IMO.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
ah right.. im not too sure how much it plays a part in spin, maybe somebody can chime in on that.. id be interested to know

here is a shot sequence of fed.. but please, dont take this in any way me comparing my swing to his since that would be ridiculous.. i just thought id show that federer seems to have the face opened for quite some time in the forward swing.. as we know, he can generate crazy spin.. so, im not sure what the answer is

fedxd.jpg


In my understanding Fed's FH involves an exceptional wrist strength and flexing which most of us would get hurt if we try. And he's a pro so he knows how to accelerate the racket head and keep at it. Again, we non-pro players have funny and variant speeds in our strokes.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Maybe,
but I think the camera angle is deceiving and the contact is well below the shoulder and the loop is slightly above the waist. In any respect, the swing path as it approaches the contact is clearly not steep by any standard IMO.

Obviously just hitting around in practice, but perhaps there is something to be learned there?

You know that I am not at all a fan of steep swingpaths, so maybe I am biased.

Still kicking around ideas, I will write something up when I have decided what I think.

J
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
Obviously just hitting around in practice, but perhaps there is something to be learned there?

You know that I am not at all a fan of steep swingpaths, so maybe I am biased.

Still kicking around ideas, I will write something up when I have decided what I think.

J

Yes, we are not on the same side of the spectrum when it comes to preference of angle of swing path, haha.
I tend to like the options a hard dipping ball gives me and normally will only flatten out trajectory to the extent I can still generate some pretty good spin and to an opened court. Of course I play mostly dubs where the spin gives even better payoff IMO. Hard wide angles, making net players volley up, and well hidden TS lobs from out of nowhere when most of Fhs have steep paths, are things that win tons of easy points.
 
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J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Yes, we are not on the same side of the spectrum when it comes to preference of angle of swing path, haha.
I tend to like the options a hard dipping ball gives me and normally will only flatten out trajectory to the extent I can still generate some pretty good spin and to an opened court. Of course I play mostly dubs where the spin gives even better payoff IMO. Hard wide angles, making net players volley up, and well hidden TS lobs from out of nowhere when most of Fhs have steep paths, are things that win tons of easy points.

Amazing that two people on TW can have different views on something and talk about it without calling one and other an idiot, and proclaiming their way superior.

Now that I am transitioning into match play mode, I, for the past couple months have been using all of my various shots and mixing them together in point play, instead of just working on one thing per week.

As an added bonus as I am working on it and my wrist keeps getting stronger, my forehand is starting to vaguely resemble someone trying to hit a tennis ball.

Dunno if you saw my latest video, but it is a good illustration of how I mix topspin and flat in point play. (The point play starts about 1/2 way through when I start saying the score).

http://vimeo.com/8293490

You will see that even on my heaviest topspun shots with the biggest arc, my swingpath is not very steep. And as far as quality of ball regarding pace and spin I would stack mine up against most people who are not making money playing.

Of course, I am different from the others we are talking about as I have a much more extreme grip and very bent arm (Would like to transition to a straighter arm, working on it.)

I would assume that you also have a much milder grip than I.

Thoughts?

J
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
Amazing that two people on TW can have different views on something and talk about it without calling one and other an idiot, and proclaiming their way superior.

Thoughts?

J

Yes, pretty cool isn't it. It's one of the things I always liked about your posts. You are not shy about stating your opinions, but have room to listen the the ideas of others. Yes, my grip is milder for sure.

Just watched your vids and agree that you stay pretty flat with your trajectory and really drive thru most balls, while getting some solid TS. My honest opinion is that you will have a tough challenge to be consistent enough to beat really solid players with your current approach to strokes, but also from what you are saying, you seem to be moving in a better direction. I saw one I really liked about 7:41.

To me, 19 of 20 shots you hit look to be very hard with a flatter trajectory, as though you were attacking a high mid ct ball to the open court, but instead, you were mostly back at the BL where these odds are not so good. You are constantly hitting thru that small window just above the net that will allow the TS to save your shot from going long. Even Fed starts to get in trouble when he gets to going in this direction too far.

I expect this works pretty good on lower players that give you easy balls and are overwhelmed with the power like in the vid, but against 4.5 players who will redirect that power back at you from on the rise, that ball will be back on you so quick that you will still be in your follow thru! Your contact was late quite often even with the rtns this guy was giving you. I'm also thinking that low balls and higher balls will give your consistency problems too. Is this right?

IMO, to take the next step, you are going to have to hit more out front with a contact that is more up and across and balls that are 1-3 feet higher over the net on avg, with another 15% more spin and much more focus on timing. With your natural power, it would be like facing big, fast, kick serves- all over the court, that would be jumping about shoulder high. My son that plays D1 was working me over with this kind of attack all week. It was not fun to face.
 
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Recon

Semi-Pro
^^ I'd have to respectively disagree about the Federer bit, Seeing him live, 2008-2009 US open..His forehand pierces the court 75% of the time, He hits with A LOT of topspin but its not the loopy type, it really rotates into the court. When he wants to he can raise his trajectory but I'd say 3/4 vorhands are hitting through the court taking time away from his opponents.

Also jollys shots are usually landing around the feet, it would take an exceptionally talented 4.5 player to take these strikes on the rise(consistently) & return it back to a place where they can hurt him.

Also Jolly does raise his trajectory and hits slower in sets for example: http://vimeo.com/3314019
I agree that if jolly was to take the tips you have passed on to him and practice them, that would be a scary heavy ball he would produce. I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end.

For comparison sake, this video provided by aimr75 demonstrates a pro's [gasquets] insane spin[even with a continental forehand!!] (no wonder he camps so deep behind the baseline). http://vimeo.com/2902674 .So I believe its a style difference, but the best can mix it up, as you can see when gasquet & fed attacks they almost always lower the trajectory and hit through that court with insane racquet head speed.

--HOWEVER I cannot speak for J011y and I have no intentions of just bumping my head into you guys conversation, I just wanted to add my spin into it. Feel free to tell me off.
 
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aimr75

Hall of Fame
Of course, I am different from the others we are talking about as I have a much more extreme grip and very bent arm (Would like to transition to a straighter arm, working on it.)

i think i recall you saying you had a western grip, is that right? I would have thought it would be very difficult to straighten out the arm with that grip.. i pretty much use an eastern, but when ive dabbled with a SW, even that is erring on the side of uncomfortable with a straight arm

I know its doable though using a SW with straight arm (nadal)
 

ms87

Rookie
^^ I'd have to respectively disagree about the Federer bit, Seeing him live, 2008-2009 US open..His forehand pierces the court 75% of the time, He hits with A LOT of topspin but its not the loopy type, it really rotates into the court. When he wants to he can raise his trajectory but I'd say 3/4 vorhands are hitting through the court taking time away from his opponents.

Also jollys shots are usually landing around the feet, it would take an exceptionally talented 4.5 player to take these strikes on the rise(consistently) & return it back to a place where they can hurt him.

Also Jolly does raise his trajectory and hits slower in sets for example: http://vimeo.com/3314019
I agree that if jolly was to take the tips you have passed on to him and practice them, that would be a scary heavy ball he would produce. I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end.

For comparison sake, this video provided by aimr75 demonstrates a pro's [gasquets] insane spin[even with a continental forehand!!] (no wonder he camps so deep behind the baseline). http://vimeo.com/2902674 .So I believe its a style difference, but the best can mix it up, as you can see when gasquet & fed attacks they almost always lower the trajectory and hit through that court with insane racquet head speed.

--HOWEVER I cannot speak for J011y and I have no intentions of just bumping my head into you guys conversation, I just wanted to add my spin into it. Feel free to tell me off.

lol wtf jolly is an awful player in every video I've seen (this one included). what heavy ball are you talking about? are we watching the same video? I see a disastrous serve, a weak, flawed forehand, and a weak, flawed backhand. oh and crap movement. I don't mean to beat up on the guy gratuitously, but if you consider him a good player then nobody should be heeding your tennis advice.
 

jwbarrientos

Hall of Fame
I think my Golfers Elbow (GE) is because I'm trying to turn my wrist too far back to get extra topspin on my forehand backswing. I'm thinking of locking my wrist on future forehands. Maybe that will help with the pain.

I was told the same by a pro coach, he said more or less ...

"your wrist is your own wrist" :shock:
"do not try to do whoever you wanna be" 8)
"just try to find your own way and practice" :?

I also was offered those wrist-lock (?) devices ... but didn't work.

I assume uniqueness means that every single person looks for his/her own way to deal with wrist, even existing a proper technique.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
i think i recall you saying you had a western grip, is that right? I would have thought it would be very difficult to straighten out the arm with that grip.. i pretty much use an eastern, but when ive dabbled with a SW, even that is erring on the side of uncomfortable with a straight arm

I know its doable though using a SW with straight arm (nadal)

I hit the majority of my FHs with a grip right on the line between W and SW. I float between full western and extreme eastern depending on the shot.

Don't need to go fully straight arm, as it is a bit too taxing on my wrist right now, but I think I would like to end up with something in the Tsongaish neighborhood of arm bend.

J
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
IMO, to take the next step, you are going to have to hit more out front with a contact that is more up and across and balls that are 1-3 feet higher over the net on avg, with another 15% more spin and much more focus on timing. With your natural power, it would be like facing big, fast, kick serves- all over the court, that would be jumping about shoulder high. My son that plays D1 was working me over with this kind of attack all week. It was not fun to face.

Agree, and working on it continually moving in that direction while still retaining the pace when I can use it. When I am in serious playing mode I HATE missing shots, so I constantly try to use what I can and still have a low UE count.

But also staying true to my personality, I understand that there is a time and place for everything, but if I can't serve and hit big, I wouldn't enjoy playing nearly as much. So I don't mind playing steady to win a match here and there, or practicing consistency drills for a few hours a week, but at the end of the day I still have to let it fly now and again.

J
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
--HOWEVER I cannot speak for J011y and I have no intentions of just bumping my head into you guys conversation, I just wanted to add my spin into it. Feel free to tell me off.

I agree pretty much with what you said, and appreciate the input. The only 4.5s that can really stand up to me in a groundstroke game are the top singles/sandbagging (in the eye of the observer) players and up. Against the very best players that I play, I need my serve to carry me (I still lose of course, but it is the serve that lets me put up some games on the board) because their movement and shot anticipation is so much better, if not the quality of the ball, that in a rally off the ground every shot I lose a little bit of a step on them until they win the point. They also change direction on the ball better than I do.

Video really takes away from the pace/spin of the shots, but I currently hit a pretty mean ball, and have hit with probably over 40 boardmembers.

As far as taking the shots on the rise and returning them back. I have a buddy whom I would call the 5.0 equiv of Gilles Simon. Dude stands right in on the baseline and hits everything on the rise, and changes direction on the ball incredibly well. My serve is bigger, but we have the most fierce baseline points ever, with me basically throwing the kitchen sink at him, and him standing in and dishing it back out. Not uncommon for us to have several 30+ stroke points in baseline games to 21.

J
 
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J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
lol wtf jolly is an awful player in every video I've seen (this one included). what heavy ball are you talking about? are we watching the same video? I see a disastrous serve, a weak, flawed forehand, and a weak, flawed backhand. oh and crap movement. I don't mean to beat up on the guy gratuitously, but if you consider him a good player then nobody should be heeding your tennis advice.

Sorry, I don't recall ever seeing you post before, but you sound like you believe what you wrote. Would you be up for a small wager? Perhaps a $20 TW gift card? You can send them to someone's e-mail address.

Now that I am pretty healthy I am going to try to play a full schedule of tournaments in 2010. You can state what you think my level of play is, and if I exceed that in tournament play, you can send me the gift card, if I match your stated level, then you can pay me.

Fair?

J
 
lol wtf jolly is an awful player in every video I've seen (this one included). what heavy ball are you talking about? are we watching the same video? I see a disastrous serve, a weak, flawed forehand, and a weak, flawed backhand. oh and crap movement. I don't mean to beat up on the guy gratuitously, but if you consider him a good player then nobody should be heeding your tennis advice.

Do you have a video that you have posted, so people can compare your skills to Jolly's??? Maybe you have already posted one, but I usually find it's easy for people to **** all over someone's video and technique when they have posted their own video and put themselves out there. Maybe you are the exception to the rule?
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
^^ I'd have to respectively disagree about the Federer bit, Seeing him live, 2008-2009 US open..His forehand pierces the court 75% of the time, He hits with A LOT of topspin but its not the loopy type, it really rotates into the court. When he wants to he can raise his trajectory but I'd say 3/4 vorhands are hitting through the court taking time away from his opponents.

Also jollys shots are usually landing around the feet, it would take an exceptionally talented 4.5 player to take these strikes on the rise(consistently) & return it back to a place where they can hurt him.

Also Jolly does raise his trajectory and hits slower in sets for example: http://vimeo.com/3314019
I agree that if jolly was to take the tips you have passed on to him and practice them, that would be a scary heavy ball he would produce. I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end.

For comparison sake, this video provided by aimr75 demonstrates a pro's [gasquets] insane spin[even with a continental forehand!!] (no wonder he camps so deep behind the baseline). http://vimeo.com/2902674 .So I believe its a style difference, but the best can mix it up, as you can see when gasquet & fed attacks they almost always lower the trajectory and hit through that court with insane racquet head speed.

--HOWEVER I cannot speak for J011y and I have no intentions of just bumping my head into you guys conversation, I just wanted to add my spin into it. Feel free to tell me off.

Glad to see your comments and interest, except that you don't seem to notice we are saying about the same things in general.

On Fed, I said the trouble starts when he goes too far in that direction. It's a relative thing and too far for Fed is not the same as too far for Jolly. I never suggested that Fed hits a softer loopy ball on avg! IMO Fed struggled (for him anyway) in early 08 because he was trying to hit thru the court too much even for him, which resulted in high UE counts and missing long quite often. He did better in the US open you cite and won in 08 and did well up until latter sets of the final in 09, where several things went wrong for him.

I also never suggested Jolly should not mix it up, but in fact that is what I think he should do. In the vid there was not much of a mix, and if you think there was, I would have to disagree on that point. I pointed out the one ball that I thought he did something a little dif with in the direction I'm suggesting.

Jolly, I'm not one of the trolls busting on you here, but given some match results and even more your comments about how your serve must account for you getting games on better players, IMO you need to realize that there is a need to make more shots in a row on your avg point. I don't think I would have to read those comments by you or see match results to have figured this out that consistency needs to improve for you to win more matches. It is evident in that current stroke to me that you will miss too often. I think you are seeing this too and making some excellent adjustments in form and mental approach. And also agree, you still have to take your cuts at times and enjoy this game, as that is why we play. You don't want to lose that aspect of your game anyway!
 
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Recon

Semi-Pro
lol wtf jolly is an awful player in every video I've seen (this one included). what heavy ball are you talking about? are we watching the same video? I see a disastrous serve, a weak, flawed forehand, and a weak, flawed backhand. oh and crap movement. I don't mean to beat up on the guy gratuitously, but if you consider him a good player then nobody should be heeding your tennis advice.

I gave no advice in my whole post. Neither did I call him a good player. Though I will state this clearly, you sir, are an idiot. Your lack of interpretation proves this.
 

Recon

Semi-Pro
Glad to see your comments and interest, except that you don't seem to notice we are saying about the same things in general.

On Fed, I said the trouble starts when he goes too far in that direction. It's a relative thing and too far for Fed is not the same as too far for Jolly. I never suggested that Fed hits a softer loopy ball on avg! IMO Fed struggled (for him anyway) in early 08 because he was trying to hit thru the court too much even for him, which resulted in high UE counts and missing long quite often. He did better in the US open you cite and won in 08 and did well up until latter sets of the final in 09, where several things went wrong for him.

I also never suggested Jolly should not mix it up, but in fact that is what I think he should do. In the vid there was not much of a mix, and if you think there was, I would have to disagree on that point. I pointed out the one ball that I thought he did something a little dif with in the direction I'm suggesting.

Jolly, I'm not one of the trolls busting on you here, but given some match results and even more your comments about how your serve must account for you getting games on better players, IMO you need to realize that there is a need to make more shots in a row on your avg point. I don't think I would have to read those comments by you or see match results to have figured this out that consistency needs to improve for you to win more matches. It is evident in that current stroke to me that you will miss too often. I think you are seeing this too and making some excellent adjustments in form and mental approach. And also agree, you still have to take your cuts at times and enjoy this game, as that is why we play. You don't want to lose that aspect of your game anyway!

On Fed, he does make alot of UE's this is known, so i'll have to agree with you on that, though when the US Open comes around he usually plays his best tennis that i've SEEN. I can't really comment on the matches I watch through the television because the camera angle sucks, you cant really see the trajectory, when will they have court level view!!?

The mix of trajectory is agreed upon, this is true for any player, the ability to hit a high dipping topspin shot to force the opposition into an uncomfortable position/striking range then finishing it off with a piercing ball should be tools in serious players toolbox.

I watch pro tennis when it comes around my way in NY, & I have to say pros are freaking machines man! they rarely miss a ball unless forced or being too aggressive. It's really crazy seeing them pound ground-strokes routinely at a high level of pace and spin. When I first saw tennis on TV, I already had training under my belt so I thought.."I can do that". Seeing it live!? blew my damn mind. Whole different ball game. I feel like the consistency and mental game is under appreciated and under shadowed by the pretty strokes. A coach of mine who was ranked REALLY high, top 60, told me that once you get into the top 300 almost all pros have weapons and their favorite shots to hit, the only thing that separates the top 100 and so forth is the mental game.
 
T

TennisandMusic

Guest
I agree pretty much with what you said, and appreciate the input. The only 4.5s that can really stand up to me in a groundstroke game are the top singles/sandbagging (in the eye of the observer) players and up. Against the very best players that I play, I need my serve to carry me (I still lose of course, but it is the serve that lets me put up some games on the board) because their movement and shot anticipation is so much better, if not the quality of the ball, that in a rally off the ground every shot I lose a little bit of a step on them until they win the point. They also change direction on the ball better than I do.

Video really takes away from the pace/spin of the shots, but I currently hit a pretty mean ball, and have hit with probably over 40 boardmembers.

As far as taking the shots on the rise and returning them back. I have a buddy whom I would call the 5.0 equiv of Gilles Simon. Dude stands right in on the baseline and hits everything on the rise, and changes direction on the ball incredibly well. My serve is bigger, but we have the most fierce baseline points ever, with me basically throwing the kitchen sink at him, and him standing in and dishing it back out. Not uncommon for us to have several 30+ stroke points in baseline games to 21.

J

Come on man, why do you talk like this after people posted your results? The only people that can stand up to your are 4.5's that are actually sand bagging? Why do you say that kinda thing?

If I were you I would re-evaluate your game. Have you ever considered that you use a racquet that is way too heavy for you? Look at your videos. You look like you have trouble heaving that thing that around. It certainly doesn't look like something that is easy for you. You lose to every 4.0 and up pretty much in tournaments, based on the records that people posted here. You have claimed to have world class coaching. What are they teaching you? If that was the case, shouldn't you be regularly beating 4.0's and above? What about the beating a 3.5 with a broom? Or saying you hit more topspin than anyone on the planet (a couple years back)? Or talking about winning junior tournaments with "exceptional footwork", which seems to be an area you are really lacking in based on your vids? I mean I KNOW I suck, and that's why I leave the garbage in my videos. If the pros are making mistakes by the dozens in their matches, why do people on youtube edit them all out to make it look like they are tennis geniuses that never make an error? Absurd.

I'm sure you're a nice guy and all, but man, you really know how to talk some trash. Why do you do it? Where do you get the idea to name a simple kevlar/poly hybrid after yourself, and AFTER someone else suggested it to you in the first place?

To everyone else, you gotta stop lionizing this guy, just because of how he talks. Based on his videos, there isn't a ton of pace and spin on his shots. Look how long the shots take to go from end to end. I see no kick off the court, even on the clay, and the guy he is always playing with looks like an out of shape older man who can barely keep the ball in play.

Man, seriously, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but it gets tiresome to constantly read this load in almost every section on this board. Of course I can "not read it" as is often the retort, but I dunno. Isn't that like saying, if you don't like pollution move to a different city? Why wouldn't we just clean things up?

Well, I know I'm the one who looks bad here, but somebody has to say it. Oh well.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
Well, I know I'm the one who looks bad here, but somebody has to say it. Oh well.

Well I'll speak up on the other side of this and I don't agree that anyone needed to say anything on this.

I think Jolly's posts are some of the most interesting on this forum and that he has a personality that really comes thru in them. He's a guy that I think I'd really enjoy getting out to the courts with if he lived closer. Can he talk alittle trash now and again? Sure, but he does it with a style that is laid back and rarely if ever hurtful towards others (that I have seen anyway). He's written some exceptionally useful post on string and I think that alone shows quite a bit about his skills.

He's been willing to post several vids of his hitting, so he's not trying to hide behind just words in a post. If you don't think he hits a heavy ball, you are just kidding yourself. His ball gets thru the court and is penetrating. It's not going to kick up with that trajectory, no matter how much spin he imparts, as it can't get vert enough on the "dip to bounce". Pretty open of him to be willing to share his vids and overall perspective for any who might enjoy them.

As to his record, I've met several players who hit a very nice ball (their best 7 of 10) who didn't win a lot of league matches for one reason or another. I think many are like Jolly in that they take great enjoyment in each BIg whack at the ball. It feels so good to them to really get a hold of one hit just right! Much like golfers who can drive 350 on occasion, but don't putt well enough to score as well. Some of these players go on to adjust and plug holes in their games and become much better winners down the road. Seems Jolly is intent on making just this type of improvements and seeks good coaching along the way. I can't see why anyone would say he doesn't knock the tar out of the ball, cause he does.
 
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LeeD

Bionic Poster
WOW... :shock::shock: JOLLY !!!
Just read you don't play in temps below 65. No wonder you look like you hit a gazillion mph and move like a pro.
I don't play when it's over 65, am 60, use Dunlop's heaviest balls, use heavy rackets with dead strings, and move like a hippo.
 

ms87

Rookie
Come on man, why do you talk like this after people posted your results? The only people that can stand up to your are 4.5's that are actually sand bagging? Why do you say that kinda thing?

If I were you I would re-evaluate your game. Have you ever considered that you use a racquet that is way too heavy for you? Look at your videos. You look like you have trouble heaving that thing that around. It certainly doesn't look like something that is easy for you. You lose to every 4.0 and up pretty much in tournaments, based on the records that people posted here. You have claimed to have world class coaching. What are they teaching you? If that was the case, shouldn't you be regularly beating 4.0's and above? What about the beating a 3.5 with a broom? Or saying you hit more topspin than anyone on the planet (a couple years back)? Or talking about winning junior tournaments with "exceptional footwork", which seems to be an area you are really lacking in based on your vids? I mean I KNOW I suck, and that's why I leave the garbage in my videos. If the pros are making mistakes by the dozens in their matches, why do people on youtube edit them all out to make it look like they are tennis geniuses that never make an error? Absurd.

I'm sure you're a nice guy and all, but man, you really know how to talk some trash. Why do you do it? Where do you get the idea to name a simple kevlar/poly hybrid after yourself, and AFTER someone else suggested it to you in the first place?

To everyone else, you gotta stop lionizing this guy, just because of how he talks. Based on his videos, there isn't a ton of pace and spin on his shots. Look how long the shots take to go from end to end. I see no kick off the court, even on the clay, and the guy he is always playing with looks like an out of shape older man who can barely keep the ball in play.

Man, seriously, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but it gets tiresome to constantly read this load in almost every section on this board. Of course I can "not read it" as is often the retort, but I dunno. Isn't that like saying, if you don't like pollution move to a different city? Why wouldn't we just clean things up?

Well, I know I'm the one who looks bad here, but somebody has to say it. Oh well.

THANK YOU

by the way, you don't look bad here - the one who looks bad is the ass with the cult following of 3.0 worshippers

perhaps I should repeat myself: jolly's technique is seriously flawed on every stroke. his forehand is a MESS. his backhand is a MESS. his serve is a MESS. I haven't seen a lot of volleys so I can't comment there (although the ones I did see were crappy). This is a 3.5 player who can play (and lose to) 4.0's on a GOOD DAY.

The real irony is that he is a big, physically fit guy who clearly has a passion for tennis; he has the potential to be a great player if he wasn't so stubborn and egotistical.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
^^^ Does that mean you will take the bet?

J

Don't sweat guys like this, as their vids probably wouldn't look any better, and if they do have a lot more skill, they would not be threatened by what you have to say about your game.
 
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