Are there advantages to firm wrist on the forehand?

[J011yroger]

Don't sweat guys like this, as their vids probably wouldn't look any better, and if they do have a lot more skill, they would not be threatened by what you have to say about your game.

It doesn't bother me in the least, I actually know what I can and can't do, and who I have really lost to and beaten, you know, in the real world. Just want to show the rest of the kind folks here that they are just running their mouth, and not willing to back it up in any way.

J

 

[Topaz]

Fair???

Sorry, I don't recall ever seeing you post before, but you sound like you believe what you wrote. Would you be up for a small wager? Perhaps a $20 TW gift card? You can send them to someone's e-mail address.

Now that I am pretty healthy I am going to try to play a full schedule of tournaments in 2010. You can state what you think my level of play is, and if I exceed that in tournament play, you can send me the gift card, if I match your stated level, then you can pay me.

Fair?

J

So, no matter what happens, Jolly gets paid/gc?!?

Those are some interesting terms.

 

[Topaz]

The description and the word elasticity by BB is all good stuffs. I would say try to create as much elasticity as possible to promote whippiness. However, anytime you detect a slight pressure at the wrist, you're going too far and you will end up with a wrist pain if you keep it up.

This is what I'm currently experiencing...too much whippy and a lot of pain!

Also, another thing a player can do is move the heel of their palm against the butt of the handle (for what it was designed for). This allows a player to maintain a similar grip but it steadies the racquet in the hand more. This coincides with "choking" up on the handle. The heel acts as a brace.

Excellent pointer, thanks!

 

[tfm1973]

^^^ Does that mean you will take the bet?

J

i got a bet for you jolly. now that you are healthy and rested and hopefully didn't eat too much during the holidays (i know i did) - you look ready for tournaments in 2010. just enter open tournaments like you normally would in singles. by june 1st, 2010 -- if you win 25% of your matches or more i'll gladly pay you a $100 tenniswarehouse.com gift card. if you are at 24% or less in win percentage -- you pay me $100 in tenniswarehouse.com gift card.

it's a win-win. you have extra motivation for your matches. you win 25% or more of your matches and you prove to your naysayers that you belong at the Open Tournament level.

jollyroger win conditions:
-- matches must be completed. withdraws, defaults, no shows do not count.
-- all matches must be from January 1, 2010 to June 1, 2010.
-- matches must be in Men's Open Singles
-- tournaments must be USTA sanctioned
-- must win 25% or more matches

do we have a bet? the TennisWarehouse.com forum members and God can be our witnesses.

 

[JoelDali]

i got a bet for you jolly. now that you are healthy and rested and hopefully didn't eat too much during the holidays (i know i did) - you look ready for tournaments in 2010. just enter open tournaments like you normally would in singles. by june 1st, 2010 -- if you win 25% of your matches or more i'll gladly pay you a $100 tenniswarehouse.com gift card. if you are at 24% or less in win percentage -- you pay me $100 in tenniswarehouse.com gift card.

it's a win-win. you have extra motivation for your matches. you win 25% or more of your matches and you prove to your naysayers that you belong at the Open Tournament level.

jollyroger win conditions:
-- matches must be completed. withdraws, defaults, no shows do not count.
-- all matches must be from January 1, 2010 to June 1, 2010.
-- matches must be in Men's Open Singles
-- tournaments must be USTA sanctioned
-- must win 25% or more matches

do we have a bet? the TennisWarehouse.com forum members and God can be our witnesses.

Please be careful J0lly...

 

[tfm1973]

joeldali -- what's the trap? either he wins 25% of his matches or he doesn't. it's clear some of his past results were likely hampered by his injuries. but he's in fighting shape again and his confidence is high.

if it's a trap because i'm not going to pay up if i lose -- i'm a known poster and i have a dozen or so positive references in the for sale section. i'm a very low risk for welching on the bet. $100 is a very small price to pay to satisfy my curiosity. if there's a 3rd party who wants to hold my $100 -- i'm fine with that too.

 

[JoelDali]

Settle down man, I love the 'it a trap' Internet thing when applied to J0lly being attacked or targeted.



Your avatar rocks by the way.

I think I recognize her.

 

[zapvor]

i appreciate Jolly willing to play and post videos. 99% other posters who say how great they are are just that-saying it. no video

 

[tfm1973]

joeldali -- ahh gotcha. actually i'm curious and don't mind if i lose. i hope jolly accepts the bet.

also i'm waiting for admiral ackbar to tell me it's a trap.

 

[drakulie]

i appreciate Jolly willing to play and post videos.

I do as well. However, Jo11y is the one who placed a bet after being called out for once again stating the only ones who could handle his ground game are 4.5's and above, when fact is>>> he is winless against this level of play and those below this level (4.5) are doing fairly well against him. Additionally, as Topaz pointed out>>> ain't much of a bet if it is a "win/win" for him. (perhaps he didn't realize he worded his words incorrectly).

 

[JoelDali]

The NTRP numbers do not lie.

 

[ms87]

To those of you who respond to my posts with finger pointing and calls for me to post videos; how are my videos (or even level of play) relevant? Let's suppose I make and post a video. Turns out I'm a 3.0 player. Does that mean jolly's technique is no longer flawed? Does it make him a better player than he is? Or does that simply mean I have no business pointing out the flaws in his game, even though they are objectively there regardless of who points them out?

For the record, I am a 5.0 tournament player. I know this not because of self rating but because I win matches at the 5.0 level against other players who win at the 5.0 level.

When I see jolly's videos, I see a player who can easily be broken down. He has oriented his entire game around power but he does not generate it properly. Why do you need a heavier racquet than any touring professional? It's because your technique sucks and the easiest way to generate power (if you don't care about consistency or control) is to turn your racquet into a club. Of course, a heavy racquet with bad technique is inviting injury, but you've already learned that the hard way.

This approach may be fine at the 3.5 level where your opponent will give you plenty of unforced errors to compensate for your own and your pace will occasionally force errors.
Then you step up to 4.0 and you may be able to keep up if you are having a good day and your opponent is having a bad one.
At 4.5, you are making far more errors than your opponent and your pace (which really isn't that impressive to begin with) no longer intimidates your opponent.
Do jolly's tournament results really surprise anyone?

The sad thing is that when someone points out problems with his game, he doesn't ask for specific critiques (you know, like someone who is actually interested in improving) but rather huffs and puffs and proposes bets like a 5th grader.

 

[Topaz]

For the record, I am a 5.0 tournament player. I know this not because of self rating but because I win matches at the 5.0 level against other players who win at the 5.0 level.

And this is part of the problem...it seems the majority of posters on this board do not understand how actual NTRP ratings work...you can't call yourself a 4.5 (or any other level) until you beat (or at least are competitive with) other players at that same level.

Seems like lots of folks around here read those guidelines and declare themselves a 4.5+ without ever leaving the couch!

Now, before the Jollybrigade gets on me...I'm not accusing him specifically of this (I know he isn't a couch player), but I do think he has a fundamental misunderstanding of ratings. As do many, many posters these days.

 

[Topaz]

Additionally, as Topaz pointed out>>> ain't much of a bet if it is a "win/win" for him. (perhaps he didn't realize he worded his words incorrectly).

That's what I was wondering, too...sounded like a real nice bet for Jolly, he wins if he wins, and he wins if he loses. Those are my kinda odds!

 

[mikeler]

I'd take that bet. Just wait for a really weak Open draw. If you win one match, then lose the next one you are at 50%! No more tournaments the rest of the year!

 

[EP1998]

that is true! look for one without any prize money.

 

[mikeler]

that is true! look for one without any prize money.

Bingo!!!!!

 

[zapvor]

To those of you who respond to my posts with finger pointing and calls for me to post videos; how are my videos (or even level of play) relevant? Let's suppose I make and post a video. Turns out I'm a 3.0 player. Does that mean jolly's technique is no longer flawed? Does it make him a better player than he is? Or does that simply mean I have no business pointing out the flaws in his game, even though they are objectively there regardless of who points them out?

For the record, I am a 5.0 tournament player. I know this not because of self rating but because I win matches at the 5.0 level against other players who win at the 5.0 level.

When I see jolly's videos, I see a player who can easily be broken down. He has oriented his entire game around power but he does not generate it properly. Why do you need a heavier racquet than any touring professional? It's because your technique sucks and the easiest way to generate power (if you don't care about consistency or control) is to turn your racquet into a club. Of course, a heavy racquet with bad technique is inviting injury, but you've already learned that the hard way.

This approach may be fine at the 3.5 level where your opponent will give you plenty of unforced errors to compensate for your own and your pace will occasionally force errors.
Then you step up to 4.0 and you may be able to keep up if you are having a good day and your opponent is having a bad one.
At 4.5, you are making far more errors than your opponent and your pace (which really isn't that impressive to begin with) no longer intimidates your opponent.
Do jolly's tournament results really surprise anyone?

The sad thing is that when someone points out problems with his game, he doesn't ask for specific critiques (you know, like someone who is actually interested in improving) but rather huffs and puffs and proposes bets like a 5th grader.

wasnt pointing at anyone specfic. just my experience on here. its not relevant, but since you are saying you are 5.0, care to show results/ video?

 

[blue12]

It didn't look to me like Jolly was hitting all that bad. I would take it easy with the movement though and try to stay more still and balanced before and after ball contact. That's my two cents!
On the wrist thing which this post was originally about, i don't really see the wrist movement in the Federer/ Nadal video that some were talking about, not until the follow through is there much wrist.
Plus you guys ever here of the Wrist assist that Brad Gilbert tried to market?
The idea behind the thing was that club level players use way too much wrist.
Ha! It keeps your wrist really still so you can make more solid contact. That's what Gilbert says anyway. I believe it!

 

[5263]

It didn't look to me like Jolly was hitting all that bad. I would take it easy with the movement though and try to stay more still and balanced before and after ball contact. That's my two cents!
On the wrist thing which this post was originally about, i don't really see the wrist movement in the Federer/ Nadal video that some were talking about, not until the follow through is there much wrist.
Plus you guys ever here of the Wrist assist that Brad Gilbert tried to market?
The idea behind the thing was that club level players use way too much wrist.
Ha! It keeps your wrist really still so you can make more solid contact. That's what Gilbert says anyway. I believe it!

Nice post on each point.

 

[aimr75]

To those of you who respond to my posts with finger pointing and calls for me to post videos; how are my videos (or even level of play) relevant? Let's suppose I make and post a video. Turns out I'm a 3.0 player. Does that mean jolly's technique is no longer flawed?

Well, take the real world for example, would you take lessons and advice from a coach that has the ability and experience of a 3.0? even if you are a 5.0, you seem mostly interested in just telling people how bad they are without giving any real helpful advice anyway.

 

[J011yroger]

Fair???



So, no matter what happens, Jolly gets paid/gc?!?

Those are some interesting terms.

lol, ok, I never claimed to be smart.

Obviously a typo on my part.

Listen to what I mean, not what I say.

J

 

[J011yroger]

i got a bet for you jolly. now that you are healthy and rested and hopefully didn't eat too much during the holidays (i know i did) - you look ready for tournaments in 2010. just enter open tournaments like you normally would in singles. by june 1st, 2010 -- if you win 25% of your matches or more i'll gladly pay you a $100 tenniswarehouse.com gift card. if you are at 24% or less in win percentage -- you pay me $100 in tenniswarehouse.com gift card.

it's a win-win. you have extra motivation for your matches. you win 25% or more of your matches and you prove to your naysayers that you belong at the Open Tournament level.

jollyroger win conditions:
-- matches must be completed. withdraws, defaults, no shows do not count.
-- all matches must be from January 1, 2010 to June 1, 2010.
-- matches must be in Men's Open Singles
-- tournaments must be USTA sanctioned
-- must win 25% or more matches

do we have a bet? the TennisWarehouse.com forum members and God can be our witnesses.

Done. *Virtual Handshake*

J

 

[J011yroger]

It didn't look to me like Jolly was hitting all that bad. I would take it easy with the movement though and try to stay more still and balanced before and after ball contact. That's my two cents!

Excellent point. I tell my friends that when I am playing I feel like a labrador retriever puppy on a hardwood floor. All energy and no brakes.

Movement wise I can't stay in a prolonged groundstroke exchange with a better player than me because I keep losing 1/2 a step on every stroke, especially on clay. It is something that I recognize needs to be addressed, and that I work hard at, but unfortunately something that I lack natural aptitude for, so hopefully I can make up for it with stubbornness. I can kind of volley now due to sheer refusal to admit that I have zero natural touch or ability at net.

If stubbornness and hard work can't get it done, I will have to do something else. Perhaps a brain matter transplant like in young frankenstein could help.

J

 

[J011yroger]

The sad thing is that when someone points out problems with his game, he doesn't ask for specific critiques (you know, like someone who is actually interested in improving) but rather huffs and puffs and proposes bets like a 5th grader.

Funny... I think I discuss it a lot with people whom I respect. Even in this very thread.

I didn't mean to give the impression that I was huffing and puffing, I just wanted you to put your money where your mouth was, because I don't think that deep down you believe what you wrote.

Don't tell me. Show me, show me that you believe what you wrote.

J

 

[onehandbh]

When I am hitting my FH well, my wrist is relaxed during the take back
and very passive overall in conscious effort, but at impact I would say it
is firm and sort of forms a near right angle w/my forearm.

When I am more actively using my wrist my FH is usually worse, shanking more
and requiring more effort.

 

[tfm1973]

Done. *Virtual Handshake*

J

Badda Bing. *spits in hand* we gots ourselves a bet. good luck to you in 2010!

 

[Spinz]

Excellent point. I tell my friends that when I am playing I feel like a labrador retriever puppy on a hardwood floor. All energy and no brakes.

Movement wise I can't stay in a prolonged groundstroke exchange with a better player than me because I keep losing 1/2 a step on every stroke, especially on clay. It is something that I recognize needs to be addressed, and that I work hard at, but unfortunately something that I lack natural aptitude for, so hopefully I can make up for it with stubbornness. I can kind of volley now due to sheer refusal to admit that I have zero natural touch or ability at net.



J

I watched some of your set video. One thing I noticed about the movement is your first step and recovery. Not the speed so much as the place. Sometimes it seems you do not recover to the most likely spot and/or are ready to move to that area where the ball is likely to go based on the shot or serve you hit. Then you have to scramble a bit. In some cases this has happened when you were in control of the point. This could be a result of too many dead ball drills. You should work with your teaching pro or high level friends on pattern drills and drills with serve, step into the court to the right place drills. Against better players you need those extra second as you've already noticed.

 

[J011yroger]

I watched some of your set video. One thing I noticed about the movement is your first step and recovery. Not the speed so much as the place. Sometimes it seems you do not recover to the most likely spot and/or are ready to move to that area where the ball is likely to go based on the shot or serve you hit. Then you have to scramble a bit. In some cases this has happened when you were in control of the point. This could be a result of too many dead ball drills. You should work with your teaching pro or high level friends on pattern drills and drills with serve, step into the court to the right place drills. Against better players you need those extra second as you've already noticed.

Ya, I believe those were last winter, I have been much more focused on playing groundstroke games, and practice sets since mid summer. I will have to film another match, but I am hesitant to do so against someone unless I am sure I can cover the T serve pretty well, would be an expensive ace that took out my camera,

J

 

[blue12]

Excellent point. I tell my friends that when I am playing I feel like a labrador retriever puppy on a hardwood floor. All energy and no brakes.



J

Jolly movement is technique just like strokes are. You can improve it just like you can improve strokes. Balance is the key though, stopping and starting and staying in control is all about never losing your balance.

 

[J011yroger]

Jolly movement is technique just like strokes are. You can improve it just like you can improve strokes. Balance is the key though, stopping and starting and staying in control is all about never losing your balance.

Ya, for sure, and I work hard at it off court, and on, but it is one of the things that is harder and doesn't come as naturally to me.

J

 

[blue12]

Yeah i'm about the same way. I honestly thought i was hopeless until recently. I've always moved much better forward and backwards than side to side though. But i've been doing some things that have really helped. Some things i've figured out just by hitting a million balls though and i've learned a lot about movement by watching you tube videos of Simon, Fed, safin and Jokovic.

 

[J011yroger]

^^^ I do a lot of plyo, and agility drills, as well as balance stuff off court. It wasn't pretty when I started, but as the weeks went on I got better and better at it. Still have a long way to go, but there is hope.

J

 

[maverick66]

But i've been doing some things that have really helped. Some things i've figured out just by hitting a million balls though and i've learned a lot about movement by watching you tube videos of Simon, Fed, safin and Jokovic.

Thats about only thing watching pros is good for. Movement patterns and putting together plays. You can learn a ton by watching how they position themselves and how they move for a balls. you can actually apply these to your game instead of trying to mimic swings which is a good way to fail.

 

[Spinz]

Thats about only thing watching pros is good for. Movement patterns and putting together plays. You can learn a ton by watching how they position themselves and how they move for a balls. you can actually apply these to your game instead of trying to mimic swings which is a good way to fail.

+1. I have read threads on here that are so technical in terms of grips and backswings when a lot of the players should be looking at the feet getting to contact, at contact and in recovery.

 

[blue12]

^^^ I do a lot of plyo, and agility drills, as well as balance stuff off court. It wasn't pretty when I started, but as the weeks went on I got better and better at it. Still have a long way to go, but there is hope.

J

Just another opinion but i think you look a lot better in your videos when you step in on your backhand. I noticed you do it on your forehand occasionally as well when you are attacking. You'd gain a lot of time if you did it at the baseline as well, rather then moving up then back and setting on your back foot. If you just stayed up on your front foot off both sides you'd eliminate a lot of unnecessary movement. It's kind of a Davydenko style of play, at least on the forehand side, cause just about everybody steps in on a two hander if they have time.

 

[Power Player]

When I am hitting my FH well, my wrist is relaxed during the take back
and very passive overall in conscious effort, but at impact I would say it
is firm and sort of forms a near right angle w/my forearm.

When I am more actively using my wrist my FH is usually worse, shanking more
and requiring more effort.

I am noticing the same thing. I also notice that I could get away with a looser wrist on less demanding sticks, but in order to hit clean shots with players sticks, I have to keep my wrist like yours on impact. I use my wrists too much, always have. Bad habit even as a junior player that I have to fix.

 

[Counter]

Hi all,

A question that I think might be relevant, or at least related, to the topic:

In hitting a forehand, how does the issue of firm versus loose wrist relate to that of supination (during backswing) and subsequent pronation (during forward swing) of the wrist and the forearm? Could you say that such pronation amounts to, or implies, 'loosening' the wrist? Or are these in fact two independent issues? (As you might suspect, I'm also not totally clear on what constitutes a 'firm' wrist, as opposed to a 'loose' one.)

In my limited understanding at least, one is supposed to supinate during the backswing, and then again to pronate one's wrist during the swing forward (specifically, just before impact)... If this assumption is actually wrong, I'd also like to hear it!

Thanks,
Counter.

 

[aimr75]

In my limited understanding at least, one is supposed to supinate during the backswing, and then again to pronate one's wrist during the swing forward (specifically, just before impact)... If this assumption is actually wrong, I'd also like to hear it!

as far as i understand it, pronation occurs where the forearm turns counterclockwise for a righty.. so in the take back, if the hitting face of the racquet faces the ground or back fence, then the forearm has pronated.. supination occurs when the forearm rotates clockwise, hence in the forward swing to the ball, supination occurs.. there after, the arm naturally pronates in the follow through..

I think there is some contention with guys like fed where people would argue the follow through pronation occurs slightly before contact.. dont know if this is the case

 

[KenC]

as far as i understand it, pronation occurs where the forearm turns counterclockwise for a righty..

Pronation involves rotating your forearm from palm up to palm down, or in that rotating direction. Supination is the opposite.

 

[aimr75]

Pronation involves rotating your forearm from palm up to palm down, or in that rotating direction. Supination is the opposite.

thanks, i should have described it that way.. i remember seeing a photo that shows this very thing

 

[smoothtennis]

You guys need to start a new JollyBet Thread, LOL. That's a cool bet guys - and gives Jolly more motivation to train with intensity.

One other caveat to the bet? Do Jolly's wins have to be against someone 4.5 or highter to count as a win? I mean...I entered an Open tournament and pulled out at win when I was rated a 3.5 against a good junior who self destructed.

 

[Sup2Dresq]

You guys need to start a new JollyBet Thread, LOL. That's a cool bet guys - and gives Jolly more motivation to train with intensity.

One other caveat to the bet? Do Jolly's wins have to be against someone 4.5 or highter to count as a win? I mean...I entered an Open tournament and pulled out at win when I was rated a 3.5 against a good junior who self destructed.

I heard someone won a first round match at the national indoor open tournament last month at Flushing Meadows.. against a 3.0 (well I'm guessing 3.0 since the person lost to a 4.0 6-0, 6-3 earlier in the year and zero wins in a main draw).

Sometimes your lucky, sometimes your not. Kind of like.. sometimes you feel like a nut.. sometimes you don't (can someone tell me the candy bar commercial that came from?)

 

[smoothtennis]

I heard someone won a first round match at the national indoor open tournament last month at Flushing Meadows.. against a 3.0 (well I'm guessing 3.0 since the person lost to a 4.0 6-0, 6-3 earlier in the year and zero wins in a main draw).

Sometimes your lucky, sometimes your not. Kind of like.. sometimes you feel like a nut.. sometimes you don't (can someone tell me the candy bar commercial that came from?)

Dude - are you kidding?! Almond Joy has nuts, Mounds don't!

 

[5263]

The wrist is a VERY COMPLEX joint?

What is complex? What is complex about that? Your grip pressure a player has on the handle stiffens the wrist. What is complex about that?

There is no complexity here.

From John Yandell-
This is a complex and important topic. There is no doubt that one of the changes at the top of the game is the more relaxed swing styles and the huge variety of wiper and reverse finishes.

Biomechanical studies by Brian Gordon show that any forward wrist movement makes a minimal (about 1% !) contribution to racket head speed.

 

[J011yroger]

Just another opinion but i think you look a lot better in your videos when you step in on your backhand. I noticed you do it on your forehand occasionally as well when you are attacking. You'd gain a lot of time if you did it at the baseline as well, rather then moving up then back and setting on your back foot. If you just stayed up on your front foot off both sides you'd eliminate a lot of unnecessary movement. It's kind of a Davydenko style of play, at least on the forehand side, cause just about everybody steps in on a two hander if they have time.

Nope, I know you are right, sometimes I don't realize when I do, and when I don't have time.

But for sure it is a better ball.

J

 

[LeeD]

As in the serve, wrist is the joint that allows the chain to work.
Try hitting serves or forehands with a LOCKED wrist, like wrap it in tape or put it in a plaster cast. Both shots lose 50% power immediately!
But you don't SNAP your wrist, you loosen it at backswing to allow it to pivot on your forward swing, and hopefully try to tighten it at impact.

 

[JoelDali]

i got a bet for you jolly. now that you are healthy and rested and hopefully didn't eat too much during the holidays (i know i did) - you look ready for tournaments in 2010. just enter open tournaments like you normally would in singles. by june 1st, 2010 -- if you win 25% of your matches or more i'll gladly pay you a $100 tenniswarehouse.com gift card. if you are at 24% or less in win percentage -- you pay me $100 in tenniswarehouse.com gift card.

it's a win-win. you have extra motivation for your matches. you win 25% or more of your matches and you prove to your naysayers that you belong at the Open Tournament level.

jollyroger win conditions:
-- matches must be completed. withdraws, defaults, no shows do not count.
-- all matches must be from January 1, 2010 to June 1, 2010.
-- matches must be in Men's Open Singles
-- tournaments must be USTA sanctioned
-- must win 25% or more matches

do we have a bet? the TennisWarehouse.com forum members and God can be our witnesses.

Well, did you pay him yet or what?

 

[Double_Bagel]

Great thread. So....who won the bet??

 

[Double_Bagel]

Sorry to necro this thread, but my curiosity is killing me!