Are we judging the new gen harshly?

aman92

Hall of Fame
Reading some of the match threads leads one to believe that the new crop of players are the worst ones to ever emerge in tennis. I know even I got sucked into the rhetoric in the past but what are we really judging them on?
I know it's disappointing that the way Musetti collapsed after winning the first 2 sets but did we really expect a newcomer playing in his first ever main draw to do any better against the World No 1?
Coming to Sinner, people expected a lot of him and he probably should have closed out the first set but c'mon he is playing against the greatest clay court player in the history of tennis on his favourite arena. It's only normal to be overawed by the challenge you face on the other side of the net. Federer and Djokovic at their peaks couldn't touch Nadal here and we expect a teenager to do any better?

Just saying the parameters for judging the new gen are a bit harsh. Tennis has become an older man's game and they are unlucky to still come up against 2 people who are as determined as ever to break the slam record. Just give them a couple of years to fully mature.
 

clout

Hall of Fame
Tbh most of these posters don’t care about the next gen or even the sport for that matter. The other two fanbases selectively sh** on the next gen whenever they lose to a big 3 member to symbolize how weak it is and that tennis is in dire state if they don’t move on from the big 3.
 

tonylg

Legend
 

Incognito

Legend
”Federer and Djokovic at their peaks couldn't touch Nadal here and we expect a teenager to do any better?”

nadal hasn’t been peak since 2009. They should be beating him. Sinner has potential though, people should worry about him on HC with that fh. He wont do much damage on clay and grass with bad footwork. I like Mussettis groundies, better bh that Tsits imo.
 

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
1. No, we are not judging the new gen harshly
- there were enough folks at their age who didn't collapse time and time and again vs oldies
- but ok, let's say that these 2 guys should get a free pass, what about Tsitsi, Med, Zverev, Khachanov, Coric, Thiem, Raonic, Dimitrov, Goffin, Nishikori?

2. tennis didn't become an older men game. Look in the ranking, the generation that was supposed to take over from Djokodal (Thiem, Raonic, Dimitrov, Goffin, Nishikori) is fading

3. sorry, but it's a fact that 3 generations after Djokodal failed to retire them, and we are still counting

4. youngsters also failed to take down collective an injured Nole at AO, having quite an advantage in terms of recovery, so while Musetti might be judged too harsh, the next gen as a generation is judged at its fair value

P.S.
Safin defeated Agassi in 5 sets during their first GS match
Nadal, Becker, and many others fared much better at the same age
and no, don't finger point at Fed, cause then let's finger point at Coric, and others who years later failed to take over the reigns, and Coric is probablu more injured than not, so I doubt that with the years he builds endurance and cardio
 
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aman92

Hall of Fame
”Federer and Djokovic at their peaks couldn't touch Nadal here and we expect a teenager to do any better?”

nadal hasn’t been peak since 2009. They should be beating him. Sinner has potential though, people should worry about him on HC with that fh. He wont do much damage on clay and grass with bad footwork. I like Mussettis groundies, better bh that Tsits imo.
I am saying both Federer and Djokovic faced Nadal multiple teams in their respective peaks at the FO and failed miserably. To expect a precocious Sinner to do any better against Nadal is not justified.
 
D

Deleted member 771911

Guest
Actually tbh Musetti did great and deserves praise. Good stuff from him. The days of Kuerten coming out of nowhere and winning the trophy are long gone. Sinner though, he does deserve criticism. He learned nothing from last RG. Yes it was last November but still seven, eight months and he did worse.
 

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
”Federer and Djokovic at their peaks couldn't touch Nadal here and we expect a teenager to do any better?”

nadal hasn’t been peak since 2009. They should be beating him. Sinner has potential though, people should worry about him on HC with that fh. He wont do much damage on clay and grass with bad footwork. I like Mussettis groundies, better bh that Tsits imo.
I am saying both Federer and Djokovic faced Nadal multiple teams in their respective peaks at the FO and failed miserably. To expect a precocious Sinner to do any better against Nadal is not justified.
are you saying that Nadal in 2021 plays at same level like Nadal in 2007 - 2009?
as in, if they would meet, the Nadal 2021 would win, or take the match to a close 5 setter?

edit
@aman92 added your quote as well here, as the question stays same
 

Krish872007

G.O.A.T.
Reading some of the match threads leads one to believe that the new crop of players are the worst ones to ever emerge in tennis. I know even I got sucked into the rhetoric in the past but what are we really judging them on?
I know it's disappointing that the way Musetti collapsed after winning the first 2 sets but did we really expect a newcomer playing in his first ever main draw to do any better against the World No 1?
Coming to Sinner, people expected a lot of him and he probably should have closed out the first set but c'mon he is playing against the greatest clay court player in the history of tennis on his favourite arena. It's only normal to be overawed by the challenge you face on the other side of the net. Federer and Djokovic at their peaks couldn't touch Nadal here and we expect a teenager to do any better?

Just saying the parameters for judging the new gen are a bit harsh. Tennis has become an older man's game and they are unlucky to still come up against 2 people who are as determined as ever to break the slam record. Just give them a couple of years to fully mature.
There's a bit of false equivalence with this statement.
We're assuming that these "NextGen" players are playing exactly the same version(s) of Nadal that Federer / Djokovic faced, which is very very debatable. Today for instance, Nadal was absolutely there for the taking in set 1, trying to gift it with multiple DFs and forehand unforced errors. The fact that he's 35 and becoming increasingly dominant doesn't quite add up (though it's fantastic to watch of course).
Since Nadal is the benchmark for all things clay and RG, it is important to frame this in context of the level Nadal has displayed at this tournament in all his previous runs.

We know that these guys are not on the same level as Federer / Djokovic, but I would think they would be looking to progress, rather than regress.
 

StrongRule

G.O.A.T.
I'm tired of making excuses for them. Enough is enough. 19 years old Nadal played his first RG and actually won the title, beating a dominant world number 1 in the semifinals. I don't expect 19 years old Musetti to repeat that, but come on, I don't think expecting him to have the stamina to compete against a 34 years old for more than 2 sets is asking too much! 2005 Nadal would have beaten this Djokovic in 3-4 sets.
 

USO

Banned
Sinner tried his absolute best, bless his heart. Great effort.

Musetti tanked his match and admited it. Shame on him.
 

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
Actually tbh Musetti did great and deserves praise. Good stuff from him. The days of Kuerten coming out of nowhere and winning the trophy are long gone. Sinner though, he does deserve criticism. He learned nothing from last RG. Yes it was last November but still seven, eight months and he did worse.
which shows that Nadal keeps studying the youngsters and preparing for them, while youngsters keep betting that the father time will eventually catch up and the draw will open
 

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
There's a bit of false equivalence with this statement.
We're assuming that these "NextGen" players are playing exactly the same version(s) of Nadal that Federer / Djokovic faced, which is very very debatable. Today for instance, Nadal was absolutely there for the taking in set 1, trying to gift it with multiple DFs and forehand unforced errors. The fact that he's 35 and becoming increasingly dominant doesn't quite add up (though it's fantastic to watch of course).
Since Nadal is the benchmark for all things clay and RG, it is important to frame this in context of the level Nadal has displayed at this tournament in all his previous runs.

We know that these guys are not on the same level as Federer / Djokovic, but I would think they would be looking to progress, rather than regress.
No, WE are not assuming that 2021 Nadal is same player like peak Nadal
but some folks might assume
 

StrongRule

G.O.A.T.
Sinner tried his absolute best, bless his heart. Great effort.

Musetti tanked his match and admited it. Shame on him.
Don't go that far. Sinner's choke in the first set was bad, and for sure he should have done much better against Nadal who hits 7 double faults. But at least he choked, not got tired against an opponent who is 15 years older.
 
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Deleted member 771911

Guest
which shows that Nadal keeps studying the youngsters and preparing for them, while youngsters keep betting that the father time will eventually catch up and the draw will open
Indeed. Got to ask ourselves what the Fokina Sinner and his team been doing since last year.
 

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
Don't go that far. Sinner's choke in the first set was bad, and for sure he should have done much better against Nadal who hits 7 double faults. But at least he choked, not got tired against an opponent who is 15 years older.
they both lost the last 6 games, so I wouldn't say that Sinner wasn't tired
perhaps if he was some 10 years older, perhaps he had more energy, as I keep reading that these days tennis players peak at 30+
 

tennisjedi

Hall of Fame
It’s because the big 3 have won so much, that we’re expecting the future gens to replicate their results.

Djokodal is winning because of their mental strength and experience.
 

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
It’s because the big 3 have won so much, that we’re expecting the future gens to replicate their results.

Djokodal is winning because of their mental strength and experience.
for a beginning someone could replicate Safin performance:
1. not fold and actually fight & defeat an oldie
2. win GS and #1 position in ranking without waiting for the oldies to retire
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Reading some of the match threads leads one to believe that the new crop of players are the worst ones to ever emerge in tennis. I know even I got sucked into the rhetoric in the past but what are we really judging them on?
I know it's disappointing that the way Musetti collapsed after winning the first 2 sets but did we really expect a newcomer playing in his first ever main draw to do any better against the World No 1?
Coming to Sinner, people expected a lot of him and he probably should have closed out the first set but c'mon he is playing against the greatest clay court player in the history of tennis on his favourite arena. It's only normal to be overawed by the challenge you face on the other side of the net. Federer and Djokovic at their peaks couldn't touch Nadal here and we expect a teenager to do any better?

Just saying the parameters for judging the new gen are a bit harsh. Tennis has become an older man's game and they are unlucky to still come up against 2 people who are as determined as ever to break the slam record. Just give them a couple of years to fully mature.
1. Federer and Djokovic were dealing with a better Nadal

2. I'm sure there would be a lot of complaining if Federer was the one taking advantage, but because it's Nadal/Djokovic it's all ok.
 

Kralingen

Legend
Little bit of a, little bit of column b.
It’s become harder and harder for younger players to outlast older and fitter players on the baseline grind feats that we have today. It’s a man’s game in terms of endurance and mental strength to hit 30+ rally balls per game when points used to be finished so much earlier. Djokovic is the grinder of grinders and in Bo5 it’s nearly impossible to outgrind him running around like this.

At the same time there’s a clear lack of ATG talent and mentality, and the younger gens all have either talent or personality flaws that the likes of Murray didn’t hav. So, both.
 

junior74

Talk Tennis Guru
Reading some of the match threads leads one to believe that the new crop of players are the worst ones to ever emerge in tennis. I know even I got sucked into the rhetoric in the past but what are we really judging them on?
I know it's disappointing that the way Musetti collapsed after winning the first 2 sets but did we really expect a newcomer playing in his first ever main draw to do any better against the World No 1?
Coming to Sinner, people expected a lot of him and he probably should have closed out the first set but c'mon he is playing against the greatest clay court player in the history of tennis on his favourite arena. It's only normal to be overawed by the challenge you face on the other side of the net. Federer and Djokovic at their peaks couldn't touch Nadal here and we expect a teenager to do any better?

Just saying the parameters for judging the new gen are a bit harsh. Tennis has become an older man's game and they are unlucky to still come up against 2 people who are as determined as ever to break the slam record. Just give them a couple of years to fully mature.
Tennis has "become an old man's game" because no young players stand up.

Three generations of failure. It's tough to view it differently, despite all the talent of Big3. Obviously, had any young played had the talent of a young Big3, we would have seen dramatic changes.

Imagine if Murray, Wawrinka and Del Potro were still injury free... Next gens would barely reach R4.
 

eagletennis

Semi-Pro
Reading some of the match threads leads one to believe that the new crop of players are the worst ones to ever emerge in tennis. I know even I got sucked into the rhetoric in the past but what are we really judging them on?
I know it's disappointing that the way Musetti collapsed after winning the first 2 sets but did we really expect a newcomer playing in his first ever main draw to do any better against the World No 1?
Coming to Sinner, people expected a lot of him and he probably should have closed out the first set but c'mon he is playing against the greatest clay court player in the history of tennis on his favourite arena. It's only normal to be overawed by the challenge you face on the other side of the net. Federer and Djokovic at their peaks couldn't touch Nadal here and we expect a teenager to do any better?

Just saying the parameters for judging the new gen are a bit harsh. Tennis has become an older man's game and they are unlucky to still come up against 2 people who are as determined as ever to break the slam record. Just give them a couple of years to fully mature.
Really? Too harsh? These 3 grandpas are taking their souls regularly and we should go easy at young guys in full strength. Nah man they deserve even more criticism
 

aman92

Hall of Fame
Murray and Wawrinka did better in slams against a younger (and better) Big 3. So at the very least we can conclude that no player younger than them has been as good. Not even a Wawrinka-level player out of anyone currently age 33 or younger. That's not very good.
Wawrinka peaked quite late so we can't compare him to the next gen yet.. As for Murray, think he benefitted from maturing along with Nadal and Djokovic. Don't forget that Nadal owned him for the most part during their initial rivalry, as did Djokovic. Zverev one could argue has achieved more than Murray had at the same age.
 

aman92

Hall of Fame
Tennis has "become an old man's game" because no young players stand up.

Three generations of failure. It's tough to view it differently, despite all the talent of Big3. Obviously, had any young played had the talent of a young Big3, we would have seen dramatic changes.

Imagine if Murray, Wawrinka and Del Potro were still injury free... Next gens would barely reach R4.
The lost gen is certainly a failure and basically all players before Med was born can be considered that. But think players like Medvedev, Tsitsipas and Sinner can still turn out to be multi slam winners. We have just beem spoiled by the presence of the 3 greatest tennis players of all time
 

tudwell

Legend
Wawrinka peaked quite late so we can't compare him to the next gen yet.. As for Murray, think he benefitted from maturing along with Nadal and Djokovic. Don't forget that Nadal owned him for the most part during their initial rivalry, as did Djokovic. Zverev one could argue has achieved more than Murray had at the same age.
Well, yes, they certainly have time to continue to get better, but no one currently has reached the level Wawrinka or Murray were at back in 2013-2016. And importantly no one in between did either. Lost Gen was even worse, which I think has people primed to see the negative in Next Gen.
 

aman92

Hall of Fame
Well, yes, they certainly have time to continue to get better, but no one currently has reached the level Wawrinka or Murray were at back in 2013-2016. And importantly no one in between did either. Lost Gen was even worse, which I think has people primed to see the negative in Next Gen.
Agree about the lost gen but all I am saying is it's too early to write the next gen off. Let's wait for what they do in the next couple of years when they should be hitting their peaks
 

ChrisRF

Hall of Fame
nadal hasn’t been peak since 2009.
What Nadal does at RG since 2017 is absolutely and completely peak. Such a dominance is actually unprecedented in tennis history. The stats clearly show this, even compared to his two earlier RG phases of consecutive titles. The guy could win 2 consecutive RGs without losing a set and would have lost 3 sets in 5 years then. If that isn’t peak, then what is?
 

Spencer Gore

Hall of Fame
I think we're just dealing with two players (and for several years three players) who are simply phenomenally gifted players AND have extraordinary longevity. It has been like having three Ken Rosewall's all competing at the same time. The next generations haven't stood a chance.
 

StrongRule

G.O.A.T.
What Nadal does at RG since 2017 is absolutely and completely peak. Such a dominance is actually unprecedented in tennis history. The stats clearly show this, even compared to his two earlier RG phases of consecutive titles. The guy could win 2 consecutive RGs without losing a set and would have lost 3 sets in 5 years then. If that isn’t peak, then what is?
Maybe just the competition got weaker, don't you think? Watch 2008 Nadal, then you will stop thinking that current Nadal who hits 7 double faults is peak Nadal.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Agree about the lost gen but all I am saying is it's too early to write the next gen off. Let's wait for what they do in the next couple of years when they should be hitting their peaks
They are at their peaks or do you think ages 24-25 aren't peaks anymore suddenly just because of some age shift narrative?
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
What Nadal does at RG since 2017 is absolutely and completely peak. Such a dominance is actually unprecedented in tennis history. The stats clearly show this, even compared to his two earlier RG phases of consecutive titles. The guy could win 2 consecutive RGs without losing a set and would have lost 3 sets in 5 years then. If that isn’t peak, then what is?
I mean, guys are just worse. Did you watch Sinner completely collapse when the first set was there for the taken?
 
What Nadal does at RG since 2017 is absolutely and completely peak. Such a dominance is actually unprecedented in tennis history. The stats clearly show this, even compared to his two earlier RG phases of consecutive titles. The guy could win 2 consecutive RGs without losing a set and would have lost 3 sets in 5 years then. If that isn’t peak, then what is?
Equating scorelines with level, again?
 
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