Arizona State University cancels men's tennis

Overall picture?? It's all F@#$ing president Bush fault... USA and the Bush administration can spend billions and billions of US$ dollars on Iraq and illegal immigrants ,so everyone in the USA has to cut corners and have this kind of stuff to deal with ... That money spent can surely fix alot of ailing elderly and all Americans , put alot of young deserving Americans through school but Americans are seeing less and less of our tax dollars work in a way that will affect US directly. I don't know any Iraqians but I can surely guarantee you that a few years from now a lot of Iraq refugees will make their way over here and get a free ride and our tax dollars will be supporting them....and the thing is,they should get it ,because we(Bush,USA) ravaged their homeland just like in Viet Nam.. so what is the common denominator ? answer -- Texas a--holes presidents...
get a copy of the movie "obsessions" you might have a different view on Iraq, as for the illegals 100% correct fix the economy DEPORTATION and before anyone gets ruffled my mom is Lopez 2nd generation
 
A couple points

1. Brad-
You aren't supposed to be posting anymore, remember what your handlers said? You know: "No-No-No Brad- now, here's a bisquit"

2. SoCal10-
They have a "special" high chair waiting over in "rants and raves" for you where you can help those giant brains solve ALL the world's problems( if only folks in power read a little tennis thread), Most the time those jokers give me a headache.

3. Title IX has been beat to death on other threads- There is even a group dedicated to it's examination and overthrow- which includes the REAL statistics about the damage it has done.
And don't get too comfortable, you major-sports guys... Title IX ALSO includes equal representation in Coaching AND Sports Administration. EVERY SINGLE Div I is out of compliance at any time over some section of IX- It just depends when and where they want to crack the whip.

4. ASU has a GREAT tennis facility- surrounded by a lot of the ugliest multi-level parking lots that greed could create- I hope to God that the plan was not hatched just to make a short-sighted grab for the real estate and more butt ugly parking.

5. I have some tennis balls with the SUN DEVIL logo stamp I picked up a couple weeks ago, maybe the LAST home stand against ARIZONA.... I wonder what they will go for at auction?
just have to watch what i say ,but to let you know deits put on 3inches since you saw him at the winters , hitting a little bigger not much though been working on his pass game will be leaving tennis at the end of the year for a few months then will come back and dominate!
 

cmb

Semi-Pro
ahh its going to keep happening. Also president Bush's money spent in iraq may not have been spent on the NCAA if it was not for Iraq, but the money spent in Iraq is a drain on the entire economy, and it trickles down to everything. When institutions start to feel the pinch, the sports that are freeloading get axed. Simple economics here boys and girls. If we keep going down this dark road, the worst is yet to come.
 

johnkidd

Semi-Pro
What the ASU Athletic Dept failed to mention is they are still paying their old football coach that they fired after the '06 season. IIRC correctly they gave him an extension after the previous season (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that). What the NCAA need to do is reduce the amount of football scholarships and basketball scholarships that schools are allowed to give. I think basketball is allowed 12. So you have guys on scholar ship who never play....same with football. Tennis at most schools get 4.5 scholarships. I guess my ASU Tennis T shirt will be a collectors item now.

Update: Dirk Koetter was given an extension through 2009 when Lisa Love hired on, then fired him after the 2006 season. They also fired their basketball coach Rob Evans after the '05-06 season, so in the span of 6 months both coaches of the major programs were fired. So depending on what their buyouts were, that's a nice chunk of change out of the ASU Athletic budget.
 
Last edited:

johnkidd

Semi-Pro
Overall picture?? It's all F@#$ing president Bush fault... USA and the Bush administration can spend billions and billions of US$ dollars on Iraq and illegal immigrants ,so everyone in the USA has to cut corners and have this kind of stuff to deal with ... That money spent can surely fix alot of ailing elderly and all Americans , put alot of young deserving Americans through school but Americans are seeing less and less of our tax dollars work in a way that will affect US directly. I don't know any Iraqians but I can surely guarantee you that a few years from now a lot of Iraq refugees will make their way over here and get a free ride and our tax dollars will be supporting them....and the thing is,they should get it ,because we(Bush,USA) ravaged their homeland just like in Viet Nam.. so what is the common denominator ? answer -- Texas a--holes presidents...
Dude....talk about two things that are totally unconnected. You really need to step back take a deep breath, and put away any sharp objects....you'll be OK.
 

cmb

Semi-Pro
so the struggling economy has no connection to the programs being dropped? I totally disagree
 

johnkidd

Semi-Pro
so the struggling economy has no connection to the programs being dropped? I totally disagree
Absolutley no connection. The football stadiums are still packed in Saturday's in Tempe. The biggest factor is Title IX which mandates equal spending for mens' and womens' sports in proporation to the student population. Since football takes a huge amount of scholaships they need to make up for that in womens sports. If you look at most college athletic websites there are more womens sports vs. mens sports. If you need to make things equal, you cut a mens sport instead of increasing the budget. Plus you add in when these schools fire a football or basketball coach they still have to pay something to that coach based on what their contract buyout is.
 

10isDad

Hall of Fame
Absolutley no connection. The football stadiums are still packed in Saturday's in Tempe. The biggest factor is Title IX which mandates equal spending for mens' and womens' sports in proporation to the student population. Since football takes a huge amount of scholaships they need to make up for that in womens sports. If you look at most college athletic websites there are more womens sports vs. mens sports. If you need to make things equal, you cut a mens sport instead of increasing the budget. Plus you add in when these schools fire a football or basketball coach they still have to pay something to that coach based on what their contract buyout is.
Agreed. Figure that the endowment to allow ASU men's tennis in perpetuity is about the same as the buyout for the fired football coach ($3 million) + the annual current football head coach's salary (about $1.5 million/year).

Since 1983 there are over 90 universities that have dropped men's tennis. That spans Bush, Clinton, etc. There are many many more that have dropped wrestling and other non-revenue sports. The one thing that they have in common is the vast majority are men's sports because of the Title IX issue.
 

10isDad

Hall of Fame
Good quote. Not saying I totally agree but at least partially:

''It's not Title IX's fault, it's chicken college presidents and athletic directors who won't bite the bullet on the irresponsible spending of their football programs,'' said Donna Lopiano, the executive director of the Women's Sports Foundation and the former women's athletic director at the University of Texas. ''Their football programs are better funded than most professional sports. Football is pitting the victims against the victims. Until they wise up, men's minor sports will be crying the blues as football keeps laughing to the bank.''
 

goober

Legend
Agreed. Figure that the endowment to allow ASU men's tennis in perpetuity is about the same as the buyout for the fired football coach ($3 million) + the annual current football head coach's salary (about $1.5 million/year).

.
yah Dirk Koetter buy out was a joke and completely falls on Lisa Love.

But the thing is nobody cares about the tennis team other than a very small minority. ASU football OTOH is what Lisa Love is going to be judged by in large part. Football gets a huge amount or press time in the newpaper, on radio and TV. Mens tennis gets virtually zero. Students care, alumni care, the media cares. So the AD fires a coach with a winning record to pay even bigger bucks for a coach with even a better pedigree in hope for a Rose Bowl or a NC.

Drop Men's wrestling, tennis and swimming? It will barely register a blip on the interest meter compared to what would happen if the football team has a losing record next year.
 

johnkidd

Semi-Pro
yah Dirk Koetter buy out was a joke and completely falls on Lisa Love.

But the thing is nobody cares about the tennis team other than a very small minority. ASU football OTOH is what Lisa Love is going to be judged by in large part. Football gets a huge amount or press time in the newpaper, on radio and TV. Mens tennis gets virtually zero. Students care, alumni care, the media cares. So the AD fires a coach with a winning record to pay even bigger bucks for a coach with even a better pedigree in hope for a Rose Bowl or a NC.

Drop Men's wrestling, tennis and swimming? It will barely register a blip on the interest meter compared to what would happen if the football team has a losing record next year.
I went to the ASU/Stanford match last year and they a decent turnout. Nowhere what you see at UGA, Illinois etc. , but I was surprised. Tennis as a whole is not as big in Arizona as I would have thought before I moved there. Also with ASU their baseball program is huge as well as Mens/Womens golf and softball.
 

flowrider

New User
You guys are looking at things through a small lens. Look at the big picture.

Title 9 has its faults no doubt, but it has helped women get education and athletic opportunities. And yes, some men have paid a price for that.

But give me a break...men's tennis, wrestling, swimming, water polo....lots and lots of healthy, athletic, white guys, from families in decent financial shape.

The advantage that Title 9 throws to women athletes certainly does not even touch the huge advantage white guys from good families have in America. Income levels, CEOs of major companies, government positions....pretty much everything is tilted towards these guys.

Quit your dang whining.
Amen. I totally agree.
 

gully

Professional
Since 1983 there are over 90 universities that have dropped men's tennis. ... The one thing that they have in common is the vast majority are men's sports because of the Title IX issue.
Not sure where you get this. As I cited in Post #46, the number of men's participants AND teams increased from 1983-84 to 2004-05. It's conceivable that a number of universities indeed dropped mens' tennis, but how do you explain the increase? Or, better, why do you ignore it -- so that you can continue to blame Title IX?

Again: the number of teams AND participants actually ROSE -- not DROPPED -- from 83-84 to 04-05. It's ignorant to blame Title IX as the sole explanation for any one team losing its program.
 

goober

Legend
I went to the ASU/Stanford match last year and they a decent turnout. Nowhere what you see at UGA, Illinois etc. , but I was surprised. Tennis as a whole is not as big in Arizona as I would have thought before I moved there. Also with ASU their baseball program is huge as well as Mens/Womens golf and softball.
How do define huge? In terms of spectator turn out they are not huge. Golf and softball? Uh - no. Amount of revenue they bring in? Pretty much little to none.

In terms of success yes these are successful programs, but you could argue Men's wrestling, swimming and tennis were successful too.
 

10isDad

Hall of Fame
Not sure where you get this. As I cited in Post #46, the number of men's participants AND teams increased from 1983-84 to 2004-05. It's conceivable that a number of universities indeed dropped mens' tennis, but how do you explain the increase? Or, better, why do you ignore it -- so that you can continue to blame Title IX?

Again: the number of teams AND participants actually ROSE -- not DROPPED -- from 83-84 to 04-05. It's ignorant to blame Title IX as the sole explanation for any one team losing its program.
First and foremost, I NEVER blamed Title IX. My very first statement was that the university cited economic reasons. I did point out that due to Title IX, the university could not legally cancel any women's sports without also cancelling more men's sports - that's not blaming Title IX, it's pointing out a fact. I also included a quote from the Women's Sports Foundation that pointed the blame at the lack of checks on football spending. So who's ignorant?

Page 188 of the NCAA Document shows that 218 men's tennis teams were dropped. Page 201 shows that 139 teams were added. Do the math...

The overall number of participants in men's tennis is pretty close and has actually slightly increased overall, but that's due to schools having bigger squads than in the old days. There's more traveling, the sport is physically more demanding so they have more people on the team - many of whom don't play duals but are used pretty much for practice
 

10isDad

Hall of Fame
I went to the ASU/Stanford match last year and they a decent turnout. Nowhere what you see at UGA, Illinois etc. , but I was surprised. Tennis as a whole is not as big in Arizona as I would have thought before I moved there. Also with ASU their baseball program is huge as well as Mens/Womens golf and softball.
Unfortunately, at some of the dual meets there were less than a couple dozen persons watching. USC, UCLA, Stanford, Cal and UA were pretty much the only men's events with any significant turnout.

Also, one of the math instructors used to give extra credit if the students went to the tennis matches and stayed through doubles - often the stands cleared out at singles.
 

gully

Professional
The overall number of participants in men's tennis is pretty close and has actually slightly increased overall, but that's due to schools having bigger squads than in the old days.
Exactly. And so, for any able-bodied male who wants to play collegiate tennis at whichever division, there are as many opportunities (and teams) today as there were 20-some years ago.
 

10isDad

Hall of Fame
Exactly. And so, for any able-bodied male who wants to play collegiate tennis at whichever division, there are as many opportunities (and teams) today as there were 20-some years ago.
You seem incapable of doing math - while there are as many participants as 20 years ago, there are at least 80 fewer colleges at which to play NCAA ball. However, it's still basically a squad of 6 to 8 regular players with the remainder being "practice players", so any added opportunity that exists is to practice with the team and hope other players get injured.
 

gully

Professional
You seem incapable of doing math - while there are as many participants as 20 years ago, there are at least 80 fewer colleges at which to play NCAA ball.
No: From the same document cited earlier, listing Div I, II, and III as totals, Div I in parentheses.
Men's Tennis, 1981-82: 690 teams (267 D1); 7,340 participants (2,884 D1)
Men's Tennis, 2004-05: 742 teams (265 D1); 7,386 participants (2,613 D1)

As JLyons pointed out, some 12 teams or so have been dropped in the last four years (and seven or so added). But still, according to these figures, the number of teams remains about the same (or slightly higher).
 

10isDad

Hall of Fame
No: From the same document cited earlier, listing Div I, II, and III as totals, Div I in parentheses.
Men's Tennis, 1981-82: 690 teams (267 D1); 7,340 participants (2,884 D1)
Men's Tennis, 2004-05: 742 teams (265 D1); 7,386 participants (2,613 D1)

As JLyons pointed out, some 12 teams or so have been dropped in the last four years (and seven or so added). But still, according to these figures, the number of teams remains about the same (or slightly higher).
Can't really argue except to say there are conflicting statistics. You are correct, there are more teams and players, however in 1984-5, 91% of universities had men's tennis. In 2004-5, only 71% of universities had men's tennis. The difference is there are more universities (page 136). The other thing that isn't pointed out is the population is likely also higher now so the argument that there is the same or more opportunity is likely evened out due to population differences. Also, back in 1984-5 there were likely far fewer foreigners on the teams - there were definitely still foreigners, but not as many (currently about 38% of all D1 players)...

Still, the point of this post was to hopefully get people to donate moneys to ASU to try to meet the endowment so yet another program isn't cancelled. Tennis is one of the oldest sports at ASU, yet it's being shoved aside...
 
Last edited:

johnkidd

Semi-Pro
How do define huge? In terms of spectator turn out they are not huge. Golf and softball? Uh - no. Amount of revenue they bring in? Pretty much little to none.

In terms of success yes these are successful programs, but you could argue Men's wrestling, swimming and tennis were successful too.
Golf is huge at ASU, the course is named after the founder of Ping, they've got 3 alumni currently ranked in the top 70 in the world (You might have heard of Phil Mickelson, Paul Casey & Jeff Quinney?). You don't think those guys contribute back to the programs? I also believe the program gets the revenue the course generates. It's pretty much self sustaining.

The women's softball team was also National Champs this year. All those games are on ESPN. I'm sure there is a cut of that the schools get.

Mens Tennis, ASU has a nice program and an excellent coach, but as far as players? Sargis Sargisian and Mike Donnelly are the two biggest they've produced.
 
Last edited:

10isDad

Hall of Fame
Mens Tennis, ASU has a nice program and an excellent coach, but as far as players? Sargis Sargisian and Mike Donnelly are the two biggest they've produced.
No offense, but I believe you mean Gary Donnelly...and it's Sargsian.

I think I could argue that college doesn't produce touring pros - in fact in looking at the current status, college is where touring pros who can't make it "big" go...

I certainly can't think of very many "big" players that are former collegians - at least not post 80's. There are a few, but not many...
 

goober

Legend
ASU wrestling has been reinstated. The boosters came up with the $$$. I am impressed.

Here's their highlight history.

-Competed in 45 NCAA tournaments
• 23 Top 20 finishes
• 11 Top Ten Finishes
• 7 Top Five Finishes
• 8 NCAA Individual Champions
• 62 Sun Devils combined for 106 All-America honors
• 16 Pac-10 Team Championships
 
Top