Arm friendliness, it's really the string, not the racquet, right?

Discussion in 'Strings' started by anfield, Apr 13, 2018.

  1. KaiserW

    KaiserW Hall of Fame

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    Agreed it is not extreme stiff like a Pure Drive. Maybe I should have said pretty stiff.

    Full poly just feels too stiff on it for me. Went back to gut/poly and not changing unless I change racquets.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2018
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  2. Karma Tennis

    Karma Tennis Hall of Fame

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    I was talking about tennis related TE. :rolleyes:

    Anyone can give themselves TE in a matter of seconds simply by smashing the outside of their elbow with hammer! o_O

    Prefer GE, simply smash the inside of the elbow with same hammer! :eek:

    And if you can perfect the rotation, you can do both with one swing.
     
    #52
  3. USPTARF97

    USPTARF97 Semi-Pro

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    Stringing your mains with Kevlar at 80-90lbs. That would wake the elbow up quite a bit.
     
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  4. Shroud

    Shroud G.O.A.T.

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    1st off I got TE with my Pog mid with kev/nat gut at the 62/63lbs iirc.

    2ndly no one seems to understand that you can string at high tensions and have it be arm friendly if you have high swing weight.

    That pog was bone stock. Now its leaded up and its strung at 86/86 kev poly. And doesnt hurt. Just very low powered
     
    #54
  5. ron schaap

    ron schaap New User

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    :eek:
     
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  6. USPTARF97

    USPTARF97 Semi-Pro

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    Can see where that would cause some arm problems. Used to have several kids that played with that racquet. 93 inch frame and they strung in the low 50’s with hybrids. One that played at Ole Miss strung in the upper 40’s with Alu Power.
    That is a great racquet with good weight in the stock form. 340’s I believe. Good plow through like the RF97.
    Interesting jump from TE with kevlar/natural gut in the 60’s to adding a bunch of weight and string it up in the upper 80’s with kevlar/poly.
    Normally with TE the solution would be lower tension with softer strings.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
    #56
  7. anfield

    anfield Rookie

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    I just played poly main, TB 17g, syn cross. I think because the frame is so heavy and stiff, with I felt like I had to really hit out to get a reaction. With gut mains I could take a more compact or easier stroke. I'm realizing I probably had too small of a grip and could have added to the TE. I guess it was coming and two hard sessions on clay with 5.0-5.5 was the straw that broke the camel's back.

    I feel like too small of a grip does not get mentioned enough for arm health.

    For a while I was playing two OG on the 4 3/8, if I get another Wilson they will be 4 1/2 for sure.

    Just curious if a more padded grip helps with the arm. I just like the feel of leather and one OG.
     
    #57
  8. USPTARF97

    USPTARF97 Semi-Pro

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    What tension?
     
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  9. Shroud

    Shroud G.O.A.T.

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    It wasnt the racquet or strings. It was the week long spray painting in conjunction with playing too much. Had I not spray painted it would not have happened.

    Also i added weight to help the arm and went up in sizes. So at some point more tension is required

    Where you are getting tripped up is that you assume 80lbs with kevlar is an arm breaker. It is if you dont have a high sw. But if you have a high sw its totally not. Havent had Te ever again.
     
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  10. USPTARF97

    USPTARF97 Semi-Pro

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    Just out of curiosity who suggested you string that racquet in the 60’s with Kevlar? Bad advice.
     
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  11. anfield

    anfield Rookie

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    17g TB mains at 54 lbs and TNT 17g crosses at 57 lbs. It was also a few grams lighter, maybe 352g, the gut poly at 355g. I just felt like I had to take a much bigger cut, and that extra flick with touch shots. I kept that stick in the bag for two months, I'd practice serves a bit with it. I guess that's a bit tight. Maybe just need to try poly a bit lower.

    I've got the PS97CV demo coming today, they put 4g in it. I've hit with one briefly with Alu and it was okay. I'm just more excited about having a bit more flexy PS. I felt limited on serve and FH with RF, but increased my OHBH, returns, volleys and defense tremendously.
     
    #61
  12. USPTARF97

    USPTARF97 Semi-Pro

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    50/54 feels stiff to me with TB/ Syn Gut.
    48/52 plays great and lasts awhile.
     
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  13. Shroud

    Shroud G.O.A.T.

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    Why is that bad advice?
     
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  14. Backhanded Compliment

    Backhanded Compliment Legend

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    It is never just one thing but stiff 70ra + light racquet (say 11oz) with poly strings strung at 70lbs is a triple whammy that usually brings pain
     
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  15. Shroud

    Shroud G.O.A.T.

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    Weight is the most important factor if you have passible technique
     
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  16. Backhanded Compliment

    Backhanded Compliment Legend

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    agreed, for me 12.5oz + 9pts hl seems to make everything somewhat tolerable
     
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  17. Dartagnan64

    Dartagnan64 Hall of Fame

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    That's probably a big factor in the TE equation, but weight can have deleterious effects on shoulder health since heft can put strain on the rotator cuff during serves and overheads. There needs to be a balance. Enough weight to plow through the ball well but still light enough to swing easily overhead.

    For me that weight hovers around 12-12.5 oz in 5-8 points HL.
     
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  18. USPTARF97

    USPTARF97 Semi-Pro

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    12.2-12.4 , 8-9 pts head light is where it plays best to me but don’t know about all things being tolerable. String the RF97 with full poly in the 55-58 range and the arm will light up after time for most people I know that use it that are 4.5-5.5. Majority of guys are staying in the 48-52lb range with full poly. Gut/poly or full multi like NXT seem to be the best options for playability and saving the arm with this frame. Weight of the racquet and stiffness are factors in arm friendliness but strings in the RF97 play a huge factor more so than any other frame I have hit with from Wilson.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
    #68
  19. USPTARF97

    USPTARF97 Semi-Pro

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    Would never suggest that set up to anyone playing with that frame or any 93in frame. Definitely wouldn’t suggest anyone go put Kevlar/Gut in an RF97 in the 60’s. You realize the POG mid was one of the most popular frames in the junior and collegiate arena back in the day. 2008-2012 we still had a couple of collegiate players that we trained using that frame. We tested a ridiculous amount to find out what played best and we didn’t have google or websites to find out information. We went by sheer playability and what didn’t hurt the arm. Didn’t have to get a scientist out there to figure out that people could get hurt with Kevlar or poly at high tension. We had players out there that had a future ahead of them and you didn’t endanger them with high tension kevlar or poly strings. The players we saw that ended up hurt playing high tension didn’t play any better with it and would lose as much as a year healing. CSI was not needed to determine why we were seeing more injuries in competitive tennis. Having to explain why that was a bad idea to put kevlar in that frame in the 60’s when your experience with that set up was TE..would be futile. The direction that you went, up into the 80’s with Kevlar/poly as a solution also indicates that an explanation would fall on deaf ears.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
    #69
  20. Shroud

    Shroud G.O.A.T.

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    As I thought you arent reading posts or worse are selectively reading. You missed the part about the spraypainting I did that all week. Shaking and spraying for hours a day. Then playing tennis. You assume that it was just the racquet and those strings. Its just not the case.

    And yet again you dont seem to understand the relationship between swingweight, tension and arm comfort. I can string that high with no arm issues solely because I have a high swingweight a shortened stick and avoid the locked stringbeds that seem to get suggested.

    The high sw was a reaction to TE and the only real way to avoid it IME. Been TE free for years stringing high and weighting high

    And really man with all your valuable experience you managed to get TE too.
     
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  21. USPTARF97

    USPTARF97 Semi-Pro

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    Go back and read your own post at 11:56am.

    It says: “1st off I got TE with my POG mid with kev/gut at 62/63”.

    If it were a paint can then why the statement above? You think no one is reading and you deny what you say when it’s right there in black and white.
    We are all susceptible to TE playing with poly. I switched racquets on a contract and made the mistake of stringing at 55 or so in a 98” frame with poly in low temperature and had to play a match. Same string and tension I had been playing but the new frame was a bit stiffer. Yup, we are all susceptible. Many things that would obviously cause injury can be avoided like high tension kevlar. Seen many people hurt with low tension kevlar.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
    #71
  22. Shroud

    Shroud G.O.A.T.

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    I responded directly to you at 12:11 with this. Cant get much clearer
    And notice that there are no edits. So i DID tell you. And really man kevlar with a smooth cross is way more comfy than with a locked cross.

    Please talk about the OPs issue not what strings I use.
     
    #72
  23. USPTARF97

    USPTARF97 Semi-Pro

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    This guy has a hurt arm from an RF97 with poly/syn gut at 54/58. I’m sure he has benefited tremendously from your claiming TE at 62/63 from Kevlar mains and resolving that by stringing Kevlar/poly at 86/86 and then blaming it on a paint can. Thinking that what is hurting his arm is the syn gut cross and that the RF97 is not stiff is way off track.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
    #73
  24. KaiserW

    KaiserW Hall of Fame

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    I think a more padded grip will help with more shock absorbtion. I bought a Wilson Shock Shield for this reason but took it off as it added more weight than I wanted. Have since went back to Bab Skin Feel.

    Also a grip that is bigger versus smaller can also help as it should help to not grip the racquet as tight.
     
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  25. USPTARF97

    USPTARF97 Semi-Pro

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    That has made a difference on the comfort on my frames. Took the leather grips off of all 5 of them and replaced with Wilson Cushion Pro Comfort.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
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  26. Shroud

    Shroud G.O.A.T.

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    If you can see my signature you will see that I play with a 5 & 1/4. All my sticks are 3/8 stock. I wrap that with a shockshield replacement grip. That totally trashes the bevels. So i get another replacement grip and cut strips to place on bevels 2,4,6,8 and that creates a squarish shape. I only use semiwestern and conti grips mostly with an eastern bh for kicks. This grip is perfect for that. Finish with 2 gamma Supreme over grips and viola a super shock absorbant 5 1/4” grip. Its big so I dont have to squeeze to grip it.

    Another reason why my setup is super comfy so yeah you are right

    Can you measure the handle with a tailors tape and see what it measures. With 2 og 8 bet you are at 5/8ths
     
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  27. Shroud

    Shroud G.O.A.T.

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    Shockshield is about 26g. Lol was using the shocktape grip which is about 80g. Its possible but a pain to get similiar cushion and iirc about 10g less using double sided tape. Though no idea how long that would last as I stopped playing with the PS85 i did that to.

    Fwiw the weight should really up the recoil weight.

    Shockshield was almost as good as the Shocktape and easier to work with so I only use Shockshield. Only problem is wilson seems to discontinue that grip all the time. Stocked ip myself!
     
    #77
  28. Shroud

    Shroud G.O.A.T.

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    You really are just reading what you want to or STILL dont understand how weight affects comfort. Dude he never had issues with gut/poly and unlocked string bed and then he did with the poly/syngut which is locked. The stiffness never bothered him before but now it does. I explained why.

    Anyhow I gave the OP a solution that should work well for him and its up to him to try it. I also gave a solid explanation for what was happening and why. Remember him thanking me for actually adressing his issue? Its up to him to assess for himself the value of that info. I am confident that he will be helped by my solution.

    And nowhere am I suggesting that he string high tension or kevlar or anything crazy. Clearly it bugs you that I string like that and have a heavy racquet, but this is not the place to snipe at people because they dont fit in to your dogmatic views. Start your own thread if you want to do that
     
    #78
  29. USPTARF97

    USPTARF97 Semi-Pro

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    Been playing with the RF97 since it came out and played Tourbite mains with synthetic gut crosses for about a year and half competitively. Played at 48/52-50/54 and the poly slides really well on the syn gut and ultimately ends up sliding too much after 10-12 hours. Easy on the arm. Real simple solution for the guy is to lower the tension or go back to the gut/poly.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
    #79
  30. Shroud

    Shroud G.O.A.T.

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    Of course I am not saying that stiffness and high tension have nothing to do with it. If you read what the OP wrote, the tension of the poly in both beds was within a pound of each other and the syngut and gut were identical tension. The stiffness of the strings was similiar in one gut was softer but IIRC the max power is stiffer than the tourbite. So ImHo the stiffness and tension were in the same ballpark

    But what was vastly different was the snapback. The normal one had the mains tighter and crosses looser which help with snapback and because the mains slide more freely do to the crosses being smooth abd strung less tight, there is less shock and a higher launch angle. The syngut being tighter and having higher friction restricts the mains from moving and is more harsh

    That moving too much is what I am talkkng about. That string bed is locked. Its really not moving enough because the mains should snapback and be dead on straight. But the syngut and higher tension have more friction and stop the mains from returning. Its this friction due to the type of string and increased cross tension that makes it harder on the arm. Its pretty easy to see the difference between syngut crosses and poly crosses by moving them with your fingers. You can see how easy it is with poly crosses and how much harder and squeeky it is with syngut. That is the friction that hurts and precisely why kev/zx is arm friendly while kev/syngut isn't

    Its counterintuitive because poly looks like the strings arent moving at all but infact they are moving more and end up back home so to speak.

    My solution was to cross the poly mains with a soft string that would allow snapback.

    If you read the OP, this explains why he had to take bigger cuts at the ball with the TB/Syngut (less snapback and lower launch angle) and why the full bed of TB in another racquet didnt feel harsh- it had snapback and a higher launch angle, like his gut/maxpower. Altering his swing probably hurt his arm

    So its more complicated than just stiffness and tension. It also has to do with how you hit. If you hit flat snapback is not a good thing and tension and stiffness are important to comfort. But if you are a spin player the “lockedness” of the stringbed is more important to comfort. When poly dents and doesnt snapback, thats when it kills arms...
     
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  31. dnguyen

    dnguyen Rookie

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    In a nutshell, just buy a natural gut if you are after arm friendly or arm prevention but along with the right technique of a complete tennis player.
     
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  32. USPTARF97

    USPTARF97 Semi-Pro

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    You really have to figure out what works in each frame. If one has spent any time playing with an RF97 then you know that 54/58 with Tourbite/Syn Gut is going to play stiff and tough on the arm. Drop the tension 4-6 lbs and it is easy on the arm and plays great. Not rocket science.

    Tourbite 1.25/ Gosen Micro 1.30 48/52. $7
    Hyper G 1.25/ Gosen Micro 1.30. 48/52. $7
    Revolve 1.25/ Wilson Power 1.30. 50/52. $7

    Prefer:
    VS Tonic 1.30/ Wilson Revolve 1.25 57/54 $23
    VS Tonic 1.30/ Luxilon 4g. 1.25. 57/54. $28

    5.0 level tennis
    *several of my friends play poly/syn gut in the RF97 at 48/50, 50/50, 50/52. Poly/syn gut provides better feel, control and easier on the arm than full poly in the RF97.
    *havent seen a big difference in longevity between gut/poly and poly/syn gut. (6-8 hrs of good play)
    *If cost is of no concern then gut/poly is the way to go in terms of playability. Have 3 children and a wife that play tennis so cost matters.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018
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  33. chrisb

    chrisb Rookie

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    Laver got TE from an aluminum Chemold not from his wooden sticks
     
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  34. KaiserW

    KaiserW Hall of Fame

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    Wow 5-1/4! What size do you measure? I measure a 4-3/4 and have 4-1/2 racquets. In hindsight I wish I would have bought 4-5/8 as my ring finger does touch my palm. May give shock shield another try as it does increase grip size about a half size.
     
    #84
  35. Karma Tennis

    Karma Tennis Hall of Fame

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    Laver suffered from bouts of Tennis Elbow long before he started using aluminium racquets. He states that quite clearly in his autobiography. He received Cortisone Injection treatment for the condition prior to competing in the first US National Open Championships in 1968.

    Laver's TE was a function of his physiology and the pounding his left elbow took night after night during the years he was a Professional player prior to the Open Era.
     
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  36. ByeByePoly

    ByeByePoly Legend

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    Quit the swing weight and snapback shaming, it's hurtful. My swing weight is approaching 170 lbs and my tendons are not snapping back. :confused:

    Just play full bed velocity mid-tension - 3lbs and the need for this thread goes away. If your "technique" is bad enough to hurt yourself with velocity, consider video games.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018
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  37. USPTARF97

    USPTARF97 Semi-Pro

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    Don’t know about that. Put Velocity/ Weiss Cannon in my RF97 at 53/50 and started having some wrist pain. Velocity is fairly boardy for a multi. Cut it out and put Wilson Syn Gut Power/ Wilson Revolve in it at 55/52 and it was all good. Just doesn’t last long. Switched the mains and crosses to Revolve/ Syn Gut 50/52..time to play ball.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018
    #87
  38. ByeByePoly

    ByeByePoly Legend

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    fb velocity
     
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  39. ByeByePoly

    ByeByePoly Legend

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    Sorry, didn't read your post close enough. You were making a point about "boardy" velocity. I know what you are talking regarding feel, but that never translated as arm discomfort for me (and almost all of us in the velocity thread). None of us can figure out how it plays poly like, but so comfortable.

    Post TE, I played with:
    - fb bab vs touch @55
    - tonic/cream 55/50
    - fb velocity @55 and then all 2017 @52

    We are all different, but for my elbow, fb v beat out the other two (even fb gut) by quite a bit. I still don't understand why. I know from my stringer's comments v is very elastic, but the feel is not that of a rocket launcher.

    That said, fb gut on volleys ... whoa ... that is sweet.

    Edit: I came to the conclusion you have to test strings (including arm comfort) full bed. Otherwise there are too many variables.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018
    #89
  40. CosmosMpower

    CosmosMpower Professional

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    It's both and also the tension
     
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  41. USPTARF97

    USPTARF97 Semi-Pro

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    That may work, never hit with the full bed Velocity racquet I strung. Fed balls to my kids and cut the strings out because I needed the racquet.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018
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  42. Shroud

    Shroud G.O.A.T.

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    4 1/2. Shocksheild is a must for me and its why I have such weird specs. My handle is 40g and its a rare stick that doesnt end up 30pts headlight with that handle added. Start light and add to your spec
     
    #92
  43. Stretchy Man

    Stretchy Man Semi-Pro

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    I could be wrong but I thought the TE started during his second slam in 1969, but the aluminium racquet came out in early 70s.
     
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  44. USPTARF97

    USPTARF97 Semi-Pro

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    Going to stay with Gut/poly from here on out. See too many arm problems with people using full poly or poly main hybrids in the PS97 and RF97.
    Those frames play the best with gut mains and it is probably the safest thing other than playing full multi.
    No guarantees for avoiding arm problems but doesn’t hurt to be smart and avoid high tension and full bed stiff strings. Playing the lowest tension possible and still maintaining control is what I recommend to people.
    Great mechanics are not a definite for staying healthy. Djokovic has had elbow problems for the last two years playing gut/poly at 59/56 in an 18x20 so believe we are all susceptible. If you think about it that is fairly high tension with an 18x20. See where his racquet has a good bit of lead tape on it as well.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2018
    #94
  45. li0scc0

    li0scc0 Hall of Fame

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    TE is BOTH string and elbow. With myself, I can use a Babolat Pure Storm LTD (60 flex) with ANY string, with no issues. With a Dunlop Biomimetic M2.0 (73 flex), no matter the string, I will have TE.
    For racquets 'in the middle (65 flex), I can use a softer hybrid, multi, or synthetic gut without issue, but full poly is problematic.
    All racquets will be weighted up to 12.4-12.5 and 8+ points headlight, so weight/balance are similar.
     
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  46. anfield

    anfield Rookie

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    I think new racquet technology is going to help a lot with arm issues. I tested a PS97CV with fresh 4g and didn't notice anything after. I was overhitting because I felt I was not getting a full cut on FH. Also played with Prestige Pro Touch will full poly and did not feel a thing at all in my arm. Still felt like I was over hitting, but did put a half a gram at 12 and that helped.

    The problem with this new technology, you don't feel anything, even with full poly. Maybe it's something to get used to, but they really do help the arm out.

    I did get a stick I'm very excited in the mail today, 95d. Has anyone ever tried Origin main, Sny cross? Or is it better to go full Origin?
     
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  47. ByeByePoly

    ByeByePoly Legend

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    You won't get enough spin with fb origin, but it will feel great. I have now hit origin/velocity for almost 10 hours, and loving it. It brings the spin up to around fb velocity spin which is pretty good. I hit fb rpm for 5 years, you won't match that spin with any multi setup. But if you can live with 2/3 fb rpm spin ... fb velocity, origin/velocity, fb hdx, hdx/velocity are all excellent. I would pass on fb origin (unless you are a totally flat hitter). Also ... if current te issues, you might notice the poly in hdx (I did with fb hdx).

    If you found a racquet that made 4g feel good, that is a miraculous f***ing racquet. It's nuts to use 4g and origin in the same sentence. ;)

    In my fb rpm days, I tried rpm/sg a couple of times. I did not like it, and didn't see the point. I lost most of the fb rpm spin, and still didn't feel great. I would play fb velocity over rpm/sg ... not even close. Probably a different choice for a quick string breaker.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2018
    #97
  48. Shroud

    Shroud G.O.A.T.

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    Fwiw my sticks are pretty dead and wilson blx tech is the deadest i have seen. Never tried cv but dont doubt it. Totally get used to no feel
     
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  49. Dartagnan64

    Dartagnan64 Hall of Fame

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    Messages:
    4,062
    Origin FB isn't my favourite as it doesn't have much spin. Super soft and arm friendly with great tension maintenance though. But I think it works better as a poor man's gut with Origin mains and a slippery cross. I'm using velocity right now in the crosses but certainly it would work well with a soft round co-poly as well. I'm just not brave enough to try.
     
    #99
  50. USPTARF97

    USPTARF97 Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2017
    Messages:
    764
    What tension would you recommend for stringing full bed Velocity in the PS97 (2017) Black/ Red? Have two sets so want to be close to a good tension.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2018

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