"Arming" the ball over legs and hip rotation

ChaelAZ

G.O.A.T.
Standard practice for the prototypical ATP forehand bases technique on "ground up" push with legs and trunk rotation and not 'arming' a ball. We all see the advice given ad nausea online and here in the forums. For fun, I present to you, Dolgopolov.




So, if legs and trunk rotation are removed as such, what are his keep factors for creating spin, power, and such? Other thoughts?

I see contact point and the (said) lag and snap (racquet head speed) as his two weapons of choice. He is dang quick.
 

SinjinCooper

Hall of Fame
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Photo 1. Player has loaded chain by stepping aggressively to the outside, preparing to extend right leg, and thus drive right hip. Unit turn fully executed, hitting arm back and loaded, shoulders perpendicular to baseline, off arm extended, ready to pull to assist in core rotation.

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Photo 2. Outside leg has begun drive, beginning rotation of hips ahead of shoulders. This creates the separation needed between the two angles to sequence them as parts of the chain that drives the power of the shot, and drops the racquet into the traditional "Pat the Dog" slot -- the "lag" portion of the lag and snap.

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Photo 3. Hips have fully opened, and now shoulder girdle has come around to square. Off arm has retracted fully, signaling end of forceful core rotation, which enables loaded arm to come through the hitting slot at full speed without inhibition. The "snap" at the end of the lag and snap.

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Photo 4. The lariat finish common to the reverse FH.
 
If these are not arming the ball I don't know what are

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Going the Citiopen last year was a revelation to me. Saw the Dog play in person. Saw Tiafoe. Saw Sock. Then all this bunkum that I sort of believed before about classical, traditional strokes vaporized before my eyes. Then post modern was born as soon as I got back to Portland.
 

GuyClinch

Legend
So, if legs and trunk rotation are removed as such, what are his keep factors for creating spin, power, and such? Other thoughts?

Looking for ways to play tennis badly? Rotation is the key for 'next level' tennis. If beginners arm - mediocre players rotate - and good player rotate with lag (both arm and racquet). This forum goes from 'tips' to 'tell me the crappy way I play is good'..
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
Standard practice for the prototypical ATP forehand bases technique on "ground up" push with legs and trunk rotation and not 'arming' a ball. We all see the advice given ad nausea online and here in the forums. For fun, I present to you, Dolgopolov.




So, if legs and trunk rotation are removed as such, what are his keep factors for creating spin, power, and such? Other thoughts?

I see contact point and the (said) lag and snap (racquet head speed) as his two weapons of choice. He is dang quick.

Keep factors? Lag and snap?
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
Looks like high level hitting on clay. Strokes are not going to be textbook given that pace and inconsistent bounces. But they will all have the key mechanic of early shoulder turn away from the ball and a stroke initiated with the hips followed by shoulders followed by arm followed by hand.

An "armed" stroke has the shoulders, arms and wrists moving en bloc into the ball with either a fully closed or fully open stance using minimal leg/hip action
 

SinjinCooper

Hall of Fame
That's why I had commented on your thread that it's not so clear that you are arming the ball.
Really?

Go here, and count how many balls use arm and shoulders to pull or swing ineffectually at the ball with minimal to zero involvement from the legs, hips, and core.


You'll find that it's almost every one of them. Which, incidentally, is also about how many missed the court entirely.

At least for this thread's GIF, he cherry picked one of the few from his collection that he didn't arm. Instead, he used that bizarro, lock-armed, Frankenstein twist/swat technique. It's a terrible stroke, of course, but it's what happens when a non-athlete is exposed to the idea of a kinetic chain and attempts it with no instruction.

It would merit pity, sort of like his efforts at "science" do, but we all know why the SS Rational Discourse has sailed.
 

Tennisanity

Legend
Really?

Go here, and count how many balls use arm and shoulders to pull or swing ineffectually at the ball with minimal to zero involvement from the legs, hips, and core.


You'll find that it's almost every one of them. Which, incidentally, is also about how many missed the court entirely.

At least for this thread's GIF, he cherry picked one of the few from his collection that he didn't arm. Instead, he used that bizarro, lock-armed, Frankenstein twist/swat technique. It's a terrible stroke, of course, but it's what happens when a non-athlete is exposed to the idea of a kinetic chain and attempts it with no instruction.

It would merit pity, sort of like his efforts at "science" do, but we all know why the SS Rational Discourse has sailed.

Yeah I agree a lot of them do look armed. And the gif he picked, although it doesn't looked armed, it could still be armed. I think some cases of arm are so easy to pick out, because the angle between the arm and torso changes too soon that it's easy to tell the arm was propelling the stroke. But in other cases like the gif BSSH picked, he could still be initiating the stoke with the arm, but the body follows along all the way, that it's hard to tell.
 

J J

Rookie
Dolgopolove has the fundamental pieces in place like the majority of pros. People who play for money. There is a world of difference between dolgo and bssh

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
 
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Really?

Go here, and count how many balls use arm and shoulders to pull or swing ineffectually at the ball with minimal to zero involvement from the legs, hips, and core.


You'll find that it's almost every one of them. Which, incidentally, is also about how many missed the court entirely.

At least for this thread's GIF, he cherry picked one of the few from his collection that he didn't arm. Instead, he used that bizarro, lock-armed, Frankenstein twist/swat technique. It's a terrible stroke, of course, but it's what happens when a non-athlete is exposed to the idea of a kinetic chain and attempts it with no instruction.

It would merit pity, sort of like his efforts at "science" do, but we all know why the SS Rational Discourse has sailed.

You are nothing but a mud slinger. One that does not do unbiased analysis. Are blinded by various prejudices. You provide no proof for any of your statements. All the strokes in the video have a large involvement from the legs, hips and core. I add the arm to it as well once the stoke is initiated and has accelerated a fair bit.

I am practicing for doubles as well. So some of the shots in the alley are intentional. They are hit with margin. I don't see any forehand go long. One or two might be close but still in. The picture can be zoomed. The backhand is still being worked on. It is getting accurate without any loss of pace with repetition. I was not using the full backhand motion. The additions that I normally make but will not show till the time is right, provide the increased RHS margin that I need for the backhand.

I don't have the time and energy to debunk your claims. I reject your analysis with extreme prejudice. I also ask people especially those who are trying to figure out their own individual style to not rely on your analysis. You are not open minded, do not provide proof of what you are talking about and impugn people despite non-repudiable proof of the result of a given action (like say a 102+ mph stroke that stays in).
 

J J

Rookie
Ah! The superlative double standards of TTW experts

This is not arming the ball

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But this is

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Got it!
The pro is hitting off his back foot. You are hitting squatting off your front foot. Twisting around like a top. Yes it is exactly the same. Wrong. Sad.
Lol at your left toe even spinning around. That's great balance there buddy.

The left foot on bssh makes me lulzzzz... watch it lead the shoulders. Ha ha.... that is called the toe-kinetic chain. Used by people who stink like dirty feet.

If the PoMo reached 120mph his left foot will twist off.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
 
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The pro is hitting off his back foot. You are hitting squatting off your front foot. Twisting around like a top. Yes it is exactly the same. Wrong. Sad.
Lol at your left toe even spinning around. That's great balance there buddy.

The left foot on bssh makes me lulzzzz... watch it lead the shoulders. Ha ha.... that is called the toe-kinetic chain. Used by people who stink like dirty feet.

If the PoMo reached 120mph his left foot will twist off.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Looks like your eye sight is failing. Might want to get newer glasses. Th Dog is hitting off his front foot just like me. His toe moves just like me. His ball is much slower so not as much amplitude as me. Please stop working and ruining any more junior players. They need somebody who can give them a fighting chance to maximize their innate talents.
 

J J

Rookie
Looks like your eye sight is failing. Might want to get newer glasses. Th Dog is hitting off his front foot just like me. His toe moves just like me. His ball is much slower so not as much amplitude as me. Please stop working and ruining any more junior players. They need somebody who can give them a fighting chance to maximize their innate talents.
The pro is transferring his weight from his back foot to his front foot. And he slightly sits up in the process probably due to the kick of the incoming ball. His left foot is nothing like your ballerina twist.

You literally turn 90 degrees with your left toe. That is hilarious. How do you recover when you are all twisted up? Oh wait... you don't need the recovery step. PoMo 1st strike. Lmao.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
 

GuyClinch

Legend
Looks like your eye sight is failing. Might want to get newer glasses. Th Dog is hitting off his front foot just like me. His toe moves just like me. His ball is much slower so not as much amplitude as me. Please stop working and ruining any more junior players. They need somebody who can give them a fighting chance to maximize their innate talents.

Arming is not apparent from video all the time. Pros will arm on occasion - especially if they get in a fix. The difference is when possible pros don't arm and most of the time you do.

I'd look up Coach Kryil video where he holds his arm to his side and hits forehands to really understand what this arming thing is.
 

Bender

G.O.A.T.
It's fine to arm the ball where it is necessary.

Running 2HBHs on the full stretch or making late contact on the FH side on a ball incoming fast are two examples.

Which is the superior method of using a monkey drum? Spinning the drum by rotating the drum itself or by swinging just the strings separately?
 

tennis_balla

Hall of Fame
Standard practice for the prototypical ATP forehand bases technique on "ground up" push with legs and trunk rotation and not 'arming' a ball. We all see the advice given ad nausea online and here in the forums. For fun, I present to you, Dolgopolov.




So, if legs and trunk rotation are removed as such, what are his keep factors for creating spin, power, and such? Other thoughts?

I see contact point and the (said) lag and snap (racquet head speed) as his two weapons of choice. He is dang quick.

He's not arming the ball. A lot of coaches especially online over exaggerate the load. Making people think it involves some deep knee bend and rotation. Watch Dolgos hips not just his racket. Also keep in mind that the ball is going at a very fast pace. There is no need to have a significant load phase, and mostly you don't have time. Basically to summarize, he's still loading, just not in the way most people perceive the way it should be done.
 

J J

Rookie
Bssh cannot tell the nuance of technique. He thinks he knows it all. I want to break my computer or smart phone when I read his posts and those that subscribe to his lunacy.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
I know that I use to much arm when hitting. Here is a clip with a few forehands in slow motion. Would these be considered using to much arm?


 

SinjinCooper

Hall of Fame
I know that I use to much arm when hitting. Here is a clip with a few forehands in slow motion. Would these be considered using to much arm?


I only watched the first one, but I wouldn't say your problem is arming the ball, so much as it's a broken kinetic chain, caused by a too-stiff motion.

The way the whole shebang is meant to work is that you drive or shift your weight to open your hips, while your shoulders remain closed a moment longer. This creates what pitching coaches refer to as "delayed rotation," caused by the separation of the angles of the hips and the shoulders. See the SECOND freeze frame I captured of Dolgo up above in post #6, and note the difference in angles between the hips and the shoulders. This is the essence of the upper body's purpose in a throwing chain (therefore, the same goes for the serve!). Afterward, the shoulders come around until they're pointing square to the target as well, and the LOOSE, RELAXED ARM is just now getting ready to use that momentum to launch through.

Legs -> hips -> upper body/shoulders -> relaxed arm.

The way you're executing it, your legs are driving your hip just fine, but AT THE SAME MOMENT both your shoulder girdle AND your already pre-locked arm are moving with the hips as a single, locked unit. The result is you get more drive from your legs and hips than someone arming the ball would, but you're getting no boost from anything above that in the chain.

I'm not deeply in love with the Lock & Roll guy, but I think his explanation of the way the chain is supposed to work contrasts with how you're executing it so well that it might be worth a look.


Incidentally, this is the same thing that causes BSSH's "better" forehand (that he posted above) to be ineffective. Note the similarities in the actions of the hips, shoulders, and arm. Your stroke is more effective overall because you've figured out how to add spin to the thing, but the same prescription will improve both of your shots.

(ETA Incidentally #2: the stroke as you're hitting it would be a lot more at home with a continental forehand. Was it learned during the wood racquet era?

See McEnroe...

)
 
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tlm

G.O.A.T.
I only watched the first one, but I wouldn't say your problem is arming the ball, so much as it's a broken kinetic chain, caused by a too-stiff motion.

The way the whole shebang is meant to work is that you drive or shift your weight to open your hips, while your shoulders remain closed a moment longer. This creates what pitching coaches refer to as "delayed rotation," caused by the separation of the angles of the hips and the shoulders. See the SECOND freeze frame I captured of Dolgo up above in post #6, and note the difference in angles between the hips and the shoulders. This is the essence of the upper body's purpose in a throwing chain (therefore, the same goes for the serve!). Afterward, the shoulders come around until they're pointing square to the target as well, and the LOOSE, RELAXED ARM is just now getting ready to use that momentum to launch through.

Legs -> hips -> upper body/shoulders -> relaxed arm.

The way you're executing it, your legs are driving your hip just fine, but AT THE SAME MOMENT both your shoulder girdle AND your already pre-locked arm are moving with the hips as a single, locked unit. The result is you get more drive from your legs and hips than someone arming the ball would, but you're getting no boost from anything above that in the chain.

I'm not deeply in love with the Lock & Roll guy, but I think his explanation of the way the chain is supposed to work contrasts with how you're executing it so well that it might be worth a look.


Incidentally, this is the same thing that causes BSSH's "better" forehand (that he posted above) to be ineffective. Note the similarities in the actions of the hips, shoulders, and arm. Your stroke is more effective overall because you've figured out how to add spin to the thing, but the same prescription will improve both of your shots.

I see what your saying my hips and shoulders move together instead of separately.
 

SinjinCooper

Hall of Fame
I see what your saying my hips and shoulders move together instead of separately.
All that said, a too-stiff motion is still better than an armed ball. You'll have the benefit of consistency since the stroke is still being driven by the large muscle groups and consistent body placement, and the benefit of safety since you're not using the fragile shoulder muscles to try to crank the ball.

For some people with less mobility in the thoracic spine or shoulder, that's the final destination. It's not a bad stroke. Just not the fluid ideal one hopes to aim for.

The point being, aim for fluidity, but if it proves hard to achieve, don't beat yourself up about it.

Getting YOUR best forehand (serve, BH, whatever...) is about using as many elements of the chain as you, personally, can recruit effectively, and using them in the correct order. You're doing that so far.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
All that said, a too-stiff motion is still better than an armed ball. You'll have the benefit of consistency since the stroke is still being driven by the large muscle groups and consistent body placement, and the benefit of safety since you're not using the fragile shoulder muscles to try to crank the ball.

For some people with less mobility in the thoracic spine or shoulder, that's the final destination. It's not a bad stroke. Just not the fluid ideal one hopes to aim for.

The point being, aim for fluidity, but if it proves hard to achieve, don't beat yourself up about it.

Getting YOUR best forehand (serve, BH, whatever...) is about using as many elements of the chain as you, personally, can recruit effectively, and using them in the correct order. You're doing that so far.

I will have to see if I can loosen up some and get my shoulders to turn separately from my hips. I might be to old and stiff to make that change though.
 

SinjinCooper

Hall of Fame
I will have to see if I can loosen up some and get my shoulders to turn separately from my hips. I might be to old and stiff to make that change though.
If you find you're having trouble, but it remains a goal you'd like to pursue, the keyword to search on Google or YT is, "thoracic mobility." That's essentially the ability of the upper torso to rotate separately from the waist. You should be able to find some very gentle progressions that'll allow you to improve your mobility a little bit at a time, and even small separation in that angle can pay big dividends.

Alternatively, even keeping those two locked as a unit, but relaxing the arm (if you can) will also improve the stroke measurably. It's not unusual to see even pros hit that way sometimes...or the rare pro who hits that way the majority of the time...

 

GuyClinch

Legend
People hate this guy (who is just like a 4.5 player) but I think his explanation is solid enough..


Many players are at level one so to speak (using his terminology) and few are at level 3 (lock and roll guy). Most people don't really get arming.. But its a big problem.

Another thing that happens that's related is in match play people revert to arming. So they go from level 2 (practice) to level 1 (match play).. You can feel this happening sometimes.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
People hate this guy (who is just like a 4.5 player) but I think his explanation is solid enough..


Many players are at level one so to speak (using his terminology) and few are at level 3 (lock and roll guy). Most people don't really get arming.. But its a big problem.

Another thing that happens that's related is in match play people revert to arming. So they go from level 2 (practice) to level 1 (match play).. You can feel this happening sometimes.

That's a good video and A good explanation of different forehand swings. I'm thinking I use level two most of the time.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
If you find you're having trouble, but it remains a goal you'd like to pursue, the keyword to search on Google or YT is, "thoracic mobility." That's essentially the ability of the upper torso to rotate separately from the waist. You should be able to find some very gentle progressions that'll allow you to improve your mobility a little bit at a time, and even small separation in that angle can pay big dividends.

Alternatively, even keeping those two locked as a unit, but relaxing the arm (if you can) will also improve the stroke measurably. It's not unusual to see even pros hit that way sometimes...or the rare pro who hits that way the majority of the time...


Thanks I will check that out and see if I can get some more mobility. At times in practice I have relaxed the arm more and could feel more racket speed. But I will have to keep working on that because it seems I always go back to using a tighter arm for some reason.
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
Thanks I will check that out and see if I can get some more mobility. At times in practice I have relaxed the arm more and could feel more racket speed. But I will have to keep working on that because it seems I always go back to using a tighter arm for some reason.

It's tough as you get older if you've never had that mobility to begin with.

The biggest difference between pros and amateurs is the start and finish of the kinetic chain. Pro's all have a significant coiling of their torso that is absent in most amateurs so they get that early unwinding force while the rest of us turn our shoulders and hips en bloc. Then they have late wrist lag (or pronation on the serve) that adds the final bit of acceleration. Amateurs tend to get the wrist straight and lined up with the ball too early and lose that accelerative force.
 

Tennisanity

Legend
He's not arming the ball. A lot of coaches especially online over exaggerate the load. Making people think it involves some deep knee bend and rotation. Watch Dolgos hips not just his racket. Also keep in mind that the ball is going at a very fast pace. There is no need to have a significant load phase, and mostly you don't have time. Basically to summarize, he's still loading, just not in the way most people perceive the way it should be done.

What's your opinion on bssh. Is he arming?
 

ChaelAZ

G.O.A.T.
He's not arming the ball. A lot of coaches especially online over exaggerate the load. Making people think it involves some deep knee bend and rotation. Watch Dolgos hips not just his racket. Also keep in mind that the ball is going at a very fast pace. There is no need to have a significant load phase, and mostly you don't have time. Basically to summarize, he's still loading, just not in the way most people perceive the way it should be done.

Suppose that is my point watching him hit is that so much fuss is made over using legs and over exaggerated body rotation, where Dolg isn't really doing any of that. Even compared to most other pros he is very understated in both areas and uses racquet head speed to generate pace and spin.

As mentioned in BSSH's thread about post modern, Dolg is an outlier in overall form, though he does tick all the boxes a bit.Not something we'd promote for upcoming players in any way.

Meh. Thought it would be an interesting discussion. Like all the posts so far. Good stuff.
 

tennis_balla

Hall of Fame
Suppose that is my point watching him hit is that so much fuss is made over using legs and over exaggerated body rotation, where Dolg isn't really doing any of that. Even compared to most other pros he is very understated in both areas and uses racquet head speed to generate pace and spin.

As mentioned in BSSH's thread about post modern, Dolg is an outlier in overall form, though he does tick all the boxes a bit.Not something we'd promote for upcoming players in any way.

Meh. Thought it would be an interesting discussion. Like all the posts so far. Good stuff.

It's definitely a good thing to discuss. There are always a few exceptions or rather slightly different ways to achieving same results. Dolgo is definitely not arming the ball although as you say he doesn't exhibit the classic load most coaches talk about.

Santoro is another great example albeit a very extreme one. Teaching him to play like Fed would be detrimental because his style is so unique and works for him.
Other examples of this are musicians such as guitar players. Jeff Beck comes to mind. Anyways having said that they all however possess key fundamentals which every good player has.
 

Tennisanity

Legend
Suppose that is my point watching him hit is that so much fuss is made over using legs and over exaggerated body rotation, where Dolg isn't really doing any of that. Even compared to most other pros he is very understated in both areas and uses racquet head speed to generate pace and spin.

As mentioned in BSSH's thread about post modern, Dolg is an outlier in overall form, though he does tick all the boxes a bit.Not something we'd promote for upcoming players in any way.

Meh. Thought it would be an interesting discussion. Like all the posts so far. Good stuff.

But couldn't that be because in the pros it's so ingrained in them. Their muscle motions don't need to be as exaggerated because the kinetic chain is so connected in them, if that makes sense. Whereas with rec players they need to exaggerate the motions to get it down correctly.
 

GuyClinch

Legend
But couldn't that be because in the pros it's so ingrained in them. Their muscle motions don't need to be as exaggerated because the kinetic chain is so connected in them, if that makes sense. Whereas with rec players they need to exaggerate the motions to get it down correctly.

Pros certainly arm on occasion. But when give time and a decent ball they use rotation and lag to generate massive seemingly effortless power.

For some amateurs it can be quite the opposite. Occasionally they get the kinetic chain right but because of timing, footwork, coordination and skill - they mostly arm the ball.

The 'default' amateur player will just hit all sorts of balls and many different contact hieghts via arming. And they can win like this. So its hard to convince them otherwise.

That's the problem with guys like BSSH - he hits the ball hard - plays no one decent - so thinks obviously he is doing everything right.. Heck he is even 'ahead' of the curve..

It takes a more seasoned eye to see what is really going on arming vs. rotation is not immediately obvious. Because you can rotate even while arming..

I thought this video was good for this kind of thing..


Its' not all about wrist angle/ISR and such. Just letting your body rotate back and rotate forward I found to be really helpful.

I found real life coaching mixed on this. I routinely took a group class with a coach and he would yell about people arming the ball. And in hindsight he was 100% right - its no wonder he keeps getting promotions...

But really most coaches don't really explain it a way that clicks. Whats worse we are getting a wave of poor players who instead of seeking to understand what is being said..

They seek to justify their own poor play.. This hasn't really happened on talk tennis before...
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
But couldn't that be because in the pros it's so ingrained in them. Their muscle motions don't need to be as exaggerated because the kinetic chain is so connected in them, if that makes sense. Whereas with rec players they need to exaggerate the motions to get it down correctly.

That's if you believe rec players can get it down correctly at all. If they started tennis in adulthood I suspect 99% of rec players will never get the kinetic chain down precisely. Most because they don't have the innate coordination. The rest because they can't learn a whole new motor pattern or are unwilling to put the time in. A few gifted athletes with practice time likely will get it down but those numbers are remarkably small IMO.
 
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