ARRRGGHH!!! How can we beat these %*!)$&^#_Q weak doubles teams?

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Deleted member 120290

Guest
Obviously if we can't beat these weak doubles teams, then we are weaker. Frustrating thing is that individually the guys on our teams and I can manhandle the other teams' players in singles. For example my doubles partner and I have each beaten the championship team's players in singles by 6-1, 6-3, 6-0, etc. It is not even close. We can make them run all day with superior serves, ground strokes and footwork. Most of our opponents have weak 1HBH that can be exploited all day in singles.

However in doubles, we always lose 4-6, 5-7, 2-6, 6-7, etc. Some other teams are even worse than them and we cannot even beat them. It's like we are playing 2 singles vs 1 doubles team. We have little or no strategy, other than fire away at the opponents at the net.

We are playing in another doubles tournament in 3 weeks (3 doubles teams per club) and we need to win at least 1 match to save face and sanity. Our team is becoming the sacrificial lambs for the other teams. We are the one team that EVERYONE wants to see in their draw. What to do? What to do?

P.S. Actually I would love to hear from players from the other side of the net. Players who feast off doubles teams like us. What they do to beat us, what would trouble them, for example heavy topspin, drop shots, flat shots, etc.
 
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Enga

Hall of Fame
I'm on your side of the net. I play doubles all the time with older guys who have big weaknesses on their backhand side, slower movement, who would probably be easy to beat in singles.

But they know how to play doubles.

Now, I'd suggest thst these guys must be much better volleyers than you. OR, maybe theyre not, but they have more experience in doubles and can anticipate what you'll do more easily, allowing them to control the center and the net.

Its a totally different game, and you need to find the right balance. I have had more success recently because I'm finally understanding how to win in doubles. You dont necessarily even need good teamwork. Higher first serve percentage, control the net, and dont make errors. Although good teamwork helps, I find that just a general understanding of your teammates strengths and weaknesses is all you need. That, and to be aware of their court positioning so you can cover the rest of the court.

You're gonna want to get better at anticipating your opponents return, when to stay, and when to poach
I feel this only gets better with experience because its so hard to teach when you should go or stay in doubles as the net man.

Youre also going to want to come to the net more. Not necessarily to serve and volley, but to be there at the net, and not make errors when they hit the ball to you up there. Even better if you hit volley winners. Big part of doubles is making the opponents feel cramped, like they have no where to hit the ball, making the less confident. Eventually, you want the opponents to feel like the only place they can hit to is above, which you will take advantage of by smashing the ball.

It was a long process for me to get to a point where I can beat players with more doubles experience than me. Its definitely a whole different game.

BIG THING that I suggest is this: Try holding your ground up at the net, dont give up an inch and be ready. It disheartens your opponents if you can stay right there and not make errors, and it gives more room for your teammate to hit the ball, making him confident.
 
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Deleted member 120290

Guest
Thanks. You have some good points. My volleys are pretty solid and at times excellent but I also make more errors than the doubles experts. Their volleys are much stronger than their ground strokes comparatively.

As mainly a singles player, I don't really have the patience to play each point 6, 10, 14 strokes. But I guess I have to adapt if I want to win in doubles.

I have pretty solid ground strokes that I can hit hard flat or with topspin. Truth be told, I can drill the guys at the net pretty much on most returns esp. on 2nd serves but I don't want to hurt them or create a bad vibe. But I'm wondering if that is a tactic I should use or I am dumb for not using it to my advantage. I mean hitting at their hips, not chest or face.
 

oble

Hall of Fame
We have little or no strategy, other than fire away at the opponents at the net.
That's mistake number one. Don't blast shots at the netperson. Attack their feet so that they have to hit up for you to put away, or lob them, especially if both of them are at the net. In my experience the best passing shot in doubles is a spinny topspin shot that dips short, or a low slice.
Also make sure the netperson on your side, be it yourself or your partner, is being very active, shading where the ball travels and watching the opponent netperson, and look for opportunities to cross to the middle service line and poach. Make sure both of you attack the net when the opportunity arises even if you're not a serve & volleyer.

As mainly a singles player, I don't really have the patience to play each point 6, 10, 14 strokes. But I guess I have to adapt if I want to win in doubles.

I have pretty solid ground strokes that I can hit hard flat or with topspin. Truth be told, I can drill the guys at the net pretty much on most returns esp. on 2nd serves but I don't want to hurt them or create a bad vibe. But I'm wondering if that is a tactic I should use or I am dumb for not using it to my advantage. I mean hitting at their hips, not chest or face.

Actually, you should keep points short in doubles. Ideal situation is always serve -> return -> poach, or serve -> weak return -> put away, or serve -> return -> attack the legs of the netperson -> netperson pops a weak low volley or half-volley -> put away. Basically you want to make them hit up, so that you can hit down at them to win points the low-risk way (a volley that you can hit down or a smash is always easier than a low volley/half-volley, for eg.).
It sounds like they are serve & volleying? Aiming your shots to jam them is perfectly legit, although yes, aim towards their lower-half of their bodies don't pelt their chest or face :p
Also, lob them. Lob them on return of serve, lob them when they both close the net, lob over the netperson when you manage to pull their back player out of the court. I find that singles players seem to hate moonballing and lobbing, but they work wonders in doubles, especially when your passing shots are not working.
 

spaceman_spiff

Hall of Fame
Target the weakness, move in, put the ball away at the net.

When you have a neutral or short ball, don't be afraid to hit down the middle. When you have time to do what you want with the ball, the opposing net man is unlikely to risk going for the poach. If you hit a good shot DTM, then it gives your opponent fewer options and allows your partner to cheat over to the middle and cut down the angles even more.
 

Enga

Hall of Fame
Yes, hitting down the middle is a really good tactic in doubles. It forces the net players to quickly decide who gets the ball. Also keeping points short, like oble mentioned is good, it means you're aggressive. You need a bit of risk, but the errors must be kept low. Its a delicate balance
 

Alchemy-Z

Hall of Fame
Biggest thing I see is Singles is a (Side to Side game) and Doubles is a (Front to Back) game...so singles players get stuck in long rallies playing doubles cause side to side against 2 players just get's your shot blocked back.

Return of serve is key in doubles I believe ....if you can take control of the point on your return you control that match.

example.

I play ad court and against a righty instead of returning deep cross court I will slice it short out wide....they will move in and have to scoop it up...to either be A- hit by my partner at net ..or if they manage to get it over him I can usually take it as an overhead myself. (the winning chance for them is to go down the alley....so the option I am giving them is the lowest % shot in the game and while they might get a few they miss much more)

this works so well and so often I can almost read the dread on their face before serving to me...and once they catch on an try to serve and volley I will either go hard at their feet...or simply lob their partner cause I know they are making a mad dash to the net to try and pick up my short slice they have grown to expect...

after that they seem to run out of options....and start doing stuff like both playing back....which means our team gets control of the net - which is what you want.
 

goran_ace

Hall of Fame
It's like we are playing 2 singles vs 1 doubles team. We have little or no strategy, other than fire away at the opponents at the net.
...
P.S. Actually I would love to hear from players from the other side of the net. Players who feast off doubles teams like us. What they do to beat us, what would trouble them, for example heavy topspin, drop shots, flat shots, etc.

View from the other side of the net. When I see a team that plays more like two individuals rather than as a team it is because of their movement/positioning. Doubles is all about team court coverage. If you don't move with your partner first place I'm going is down the middle. When I say middle I mean the seam/gap in coverage. For example, if I get pulled out wide by a ball near the sideline, I expect to see both players to shift. If one guy slides over to cover anything DTL and his partner shades over the middle. This leaves me with a difficult short CC angle or a lob as my options for hitting into space otherwise I have to hit right into them and react. But if the guy's partner does not shade over to the middle he just opened up a passing lane. Don't assign halves to the court and just play your side. Think about where you are in relation to your partner and where the potential openings are for your opponents to hit. Stay on your toes and move with every shot. Remember that you can influence where the ball goes with your positioning at the net. Take away the easy options and make them hit the more difficult shot.
 

TennisCJC

Legend
Doubles is chess while singles is checkers. Different games.

Doubles guys with a decent serve and good volley can do a lot of damage. I started playing mostly singles in leagues in 20s, played some of both in 30s, mostly league doubles in 40s with some singles, and around age 55 transitioned to almost all doubles in league play. Through the years, there have been a few guys who beat me in singles but who couldn't beat me in doubles.

"Pushing" can win in singles but generally doesn't work as well in doubles unless you have an outstanding lob. I don't mean "pushing" in a derogatory way either. A good 4.5 level "pusher" can be a really solid tennis player but doubles gives you a smaller window to hit into and if the opposing team can hit serves, groundstrokes, approach shots and volleys hard enough to make the "pusher" miss the target by a few feet, the net person(s) in doubles will feast on the slower ball coming back.

Also, a singles baseline power player is not as effective in doubles as the net person(s) can pick any shot that hangs above the net. Granted, a powerful shot can beat a vollier(s) on pace but the net team will have a good shot at making a lot of volleys especially if they force the power baseliner to make contact behind or near the baseline.

Also, a really good vollier can dominate a doubles match and it is much more difficult to dominate with volley in singles. In singles, the baseliner has more court into which they can pass giving them more advantage than in doubles. Also, in singles, a good vollier must transition to the net while 50% of the time they will be positioned at the net at the start of the point in doubles. So, the volley carries a heavier weight of importance in doubles than it does in singles.

Also, in singles if your serve is slightly less effective than your opponents, it makes a bigger difference than in doubles. Basically, in doubles if you can serve well enough to keep opponents from hitting consistently aggressive returns, you have a good shot to hold due to a smaller target for the returner. In singles, the returner can get away with medium quality returns while in doubles these are less effective as they can be picked by the net person of the server can play S&V.

I think the key to improving in doubles is to work on a good steady spin serve, volleys, overheads, S&V, lobs and approach shots. You can do this in drills but you also need to play a lot of doubles and commit to using at least some S&V, approaching behind all weak 2nd serves by your opponents, and approaching on ALL balls that allow you to move into the court to hit. Move in, use split step and then move forward to cut off volley. Also, work on movement at net with your partner where you shift L or R with the direction of your team's shot. Finally, communicate by using these words in doubles: YOURS, MINE, BOUNCE, SHORT, SWITCH and STAY. Use these words as early as possible to avoid confusion and communication with these words can be important.
 

samarai

Semi-Pro
learn to lob. if they are also good lobbers better work on overhead. get better at net. Lob them everytime both are at net. u ar not going to be able to blast them out from baseline if both are at net.
 

spaceman_spiff

Hall of Fame
Doubles is chess while singles is checkers.

Doubles against guys with apparent weaknesses isn't even checkers.

Serve at the weakness, get a weak return, put it away at the net. Serve at the weakness, get a weak return, put it away. Serve at the weakness, get a weak return, put it away. Every once in a while, you might throw in a serve the other way to catch your opponents off guard. If your placement is good, then you'll often get an easy ace or another weak ball to put away.

It's a similar thing on returns. Try to find a weakness so you can target it, and then target it relentlessly. Maybe you throw in a sneaky shot down the line from time to time. But generally, attack the weakness, move in, volley/smash.
 

LakeSnake

Professional
Obviously if we can't beat these weak doubles teams, then we are weaker. Frustrating thing is that individually the guys on our teams and I can manhandle the other teams' players in singles. For example my doubles partner and I have each beaten the championship team's players in singles by 6-1, 6-3, 6-0, etc. It is not even close. We can make them run all day with superior serves, ground strokes and footwork. Most of our opponents have weak 1HBH that can be exploited all day in singles.

However in doubles, we always lose 4-6, 5-7, 2-6, 6-7, etc. Some other teams are even worse than them and we cannot even beat them. It's like we are playing 2 singles vs 1 doubles team. We have little or no strategy, other than fire away at the opponents at the net.

We are playing in another doubles tournament in 3 weeks (3 doubles teams per club) and we need to win at least 1 match to save face and sanity. Our team is becoming the sacrificial lambs for the other teams. We are the one team that EVERYONE wants to see in their draw. What to do? What to do?

P.S. Actually I would love to hear from players from the other side of the net. Players who feast off doubles teams like us. What they do to beat us, what would trouble them, for example heavy topspin, drop shots, flat shots, etc.

Hmm, kind of seems like "Doubles team we kill in singles beats us in doubles" is becoming the new "How do pushers that I am better than beat me".
 
Maybe they are better? For the moment!

Weird thing is I know exactly what you are saying.
Singles and doubles are just so different, its all tennis but its diverse in its plays, responsibilities, intensities etc etc.
I can certainly relate to the post. It would have been particularly apt for me a year or so ago but not so much now. I have played a lot of doubles in the last year. Now my singles game is chronic!!!! Too much doubles!!!
 
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donquijote

G.O.A.T.
You will not lose any service game following this strategy, provided you can serve decent most of the time. You said you were.
As soon as you serve a good one, come to the net. Even if you and your partner are average volleyers, you should get a lot of free points. It will be quite difficult to lob to a good serve and you two will be ready to finish the point at the net. Volley/smash to feet or open space, not to body. Don't try to overpower or rush. Take a deep breath and put it away.

Follow a similar strategy to attack their second serves, provided their 2nd serves are attackable. Come to the net after a good return. Put your body into the return, move forward. Don't try to make a winner though. Don't rush for the return and observe the other player whether he is trying to poach. You can hit to the sides if he's moving into the middle. Once you do that he will be afraid to try that again.
 
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TennisCJC

Legend
learn to lob. if they are also good lobbers better work on overhead. get better at net. Lob them everytime both are at net. u ar not going to be able to blast them out from baseline if both are at net.

I don't agree with this approach. If both opponents are at the net, I think your next shot should depend on the quality of their shot coming to you. I have seen my partner move in 1/2 way between service line and baseline to hit a FH off a waist high ball and then attempt a lob. I think if you have a short ball that allows you to get 3 or more feet inside the court before contact and it is something you can attack, you should attack it. I like hitting a dipping topspin shot down the middle most times and mix in a DTL or CC angle shot on occasion.

I agree with your lob when they both at net, if they have you on the defensive because A. they hit a deep penetrating approach shot, or B. they hit a mid-court or shorter ball that stays really low making it difficult to pass. It is higher percentage to lob when they are both up and pushed you deep or have you scampering.

But, if you are inside the court and have time to drive one, I prefer hitting a drive. I think trying a lob from inside the court is actually a difficult shot too because the court is shorter for your lob and your weight is moving forward. There are exceptions - if one opponent has a poor overhead, then lob. In mixed doubles, if the female is short, you can lob her more easily.

Even if both opponents prove to be good volliers and able to handle dipping passing shots with pace, I will use a mix of lobs and passing shots. But, my starting point is I will hit topspin passing shots off short balls that give me time until they prove they can consistently handle them. I don't start with an automatic lob just because they are both at the net. You see this all the time in pro doubles now where a baseline player will continually pepper the net players until the net players hit a deep volley. I have seen pros hit 3 or 4 consecutive topspin shots from within the court even when both players are at the net.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
I"m on the other side.
While I can walkabout and stumble in singles, doubles is the game I usually, not always, try my best.
Me, 66, and a 72 year old beat a 35 year old and a 45 year old easily. In singles, they'd have the edge. In doubles, I know what my partner is going to do, and he knows what I'm going to try to do, and we have never played with or against each other in singles or doubles.
Every shot is different in doubles. The strategy is hit where the opponent is weakest, not just hit your best shot.
You can cream your hardest forehand, but doubles players either block it back low, or lob it, forcing you to reset. And when you try to hit hard, it takes more concentration, so you might not notice the netman cheating to the middle.
You can hit 110 flat serves, but unless you can really move it around, you'll find a lob return going over your partner's head, you having to retrieve and hit a groundie off a high, backspinning slow moving ball.
And when you charge the net, you get low dippers to your feet, so you move in more, and then get a lob deep CC, the longest court.
It's just a different game, one you WILL get better at and be able to destroy those doubles teams, but it will take some time, tons of doubles practice, and lots of thinking.
 

racket king

Banned
Obviously if we can't beat these weak doubles teams, then we are weaker. Frustrating thing is that individually the guys on our teams and I can manhandle the other teams' players in singles. For example my doubles partner and I have each beaten the championship team's players in singles by 6-1, 6-3, 6-0, etc. It is not even close. We can make them run all day with superior serves, ground strokes and footwork. Most of our opponents have weak 1HBH that can be exploited all day in singles.

However in doubles, we always lose 4-6, 5-7, 2-6, 6-7, etc. Some other teams are even worse than them and we cannot even beat them. It's like we are playing 2 singles vs 1 doubles team. We have little or no strategy, other than fire away at the opponents at the net.

We are playing in another doubles tournament in 3 weeks (3 doubles teams per club) and we need to win at least 1 match to save face and sanity. Our team is becoming the sacrificial lambs for the other teams. We are the one team that EVERYONE wants to see in their draw. What to do? What to do?

P.S. Actually I would love to hear from players from the other side of the net. Players who feast off doubles teams like us. What they do to beat us, what would trouble them, for example heavy topspin, drop shots, flat shots, etc.

I could talk forever and a day about dubs tactics, but firstly, what level of play is this NTRP wise?
 

racket king

Banned
Goes from 3.0 to 7.0 across the board. Singles and doubles are different games.

What on earth are you rambling on about you idiot? I'm not talking about singles v doubles.

The tactics and plays that a '7.0' dubs pair is going to execute are going to be wildly different to what a 3.0 dubs pair is going to be capable of doing. That's nothing to do with singles v doubles.

Think first before you spam a thread next time.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Yes, I"m the idiot.
Pair Ferrer and Berdyk together, and two doubles player's ranked in the 70's in singles would beat them handily.
Pair two D-1 singles only players together, both baseliners, and they'd lose to the No. 1 doubles teams of that team. Or at least, the doubles pair would account much better than they ever could in singles.
Pair two baseline 4.5 singles players together against a good doubles team, and even though the doubles team can't come close to the singles guys in singles, they'd win in doubles.
That goes for 4.0, 3.5 also. And 3.0.
The tactics between a 7.0 and a 4.0 team might not be so different. Serve up the middle mostly, allowing your netman go cover the middle. Serve to the weaker return side, so your netperson can poach. Return low and sharp CC, and if the opposinig netperson shows poach, go DTL. Serve, move forward, volley up the middle low, pining the two opponent's up the middle so you open the alley for putaways. Lob deep CC, because CC is a longer court, and nature helps bring the ball down and IN.
Geez, that goes for 7.0 down to 3.0.
 
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Deleted member 120290

Guest
I could talk forever and a day about dubs tactics, but firstly, what level of play is this NTRP wise?

My partner and I both play 4.5 singles. Both decent players with good, solid strokes but zero doubles IQ. We lose to 4.0 opponents in doubles.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Read post 21.
You didn't list the strengths and weaknesses of you team. Lefty rightie? Tall, short? Approach skills, chip skills, net skills, overheads, half volleys? Strong grips usually force player's to stay back more, while near conti grips encourage a net style of play.
 
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Deleted member 120290

Guest
Hmm, kind of seems like "Doubles team we kill in singles beats us in doubles" is becoming the new "How do pushers that I am better than beat me".

Next thread by my opponents will be, "ARRRGGHH! We own these weak )*()W*&QR*&% players in doubles but cannot beat them in singles"
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Actually, the reason doubles teams play mostly doubles is that they already know that singles is NOT their strength. They won't wonder why they can win in singles, they're doubles players!
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
I think a very good way to tell if your skill set is better than theirs, singles, doubles, whatever, is to play 1 vs 2. Same rules but you guard your singles court while your doubles opponents guards their full doubles court.

This is like that court constructed half grass half clay for Fed vs Nadal in an exhibition match.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
I'm not sure what 2 vs 1 proves, or shows.
The ONE usually wins, smart ONES hit up the middle, towards the weaker player, or weaker player playing that side, or exclusively to the weaker player.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
I'm not sure what 2 vs 1 proves, or shows.
The ONE usually wins, smart ONES hit up the middle, towards the weaker player, or weaker player playing that side, or exclusively to the weaker player.
If the One is good, he should win, which proves if the singles player is as good as he claims, he should know how to blow past the two weaker doubles dudes.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
For example, a couple weeks ago, Rufus Smith joined in on the fun. We played 2 vs 1 for 21 points needed to win. Billie, a weak hitting girl, won 21-16. I won 21-7. Rufus Smith one 21-11.
You'd think this was expected.
I beat Rufus 6-1, with him very lucky I missed enough shots in the one game he won. Most of the other games, he got zero or one point.
How can the two win if the one just pounds the middle, weaker player side? The player get's the doubles court to hit into, giving angles the fastest players would have trouble tracking down.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
How can the two win if the one just pounds the middle, weaker player side? The player get's the doubles court to hit into, giving angles the fastest players would have trouble tracking down.

You know the doubles guys cover less court area (whole court divided by 2) than the singles guys, right?
If the doubles guys are good at their game, the singles guy can only hit in one narrow corridor.

All in all I would think this is a good test.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Think about this, if 3 equally good SINGLES (but lousy at doubles) players play 1 vs 2. My bet would be on the doubles team. Two singles guys will blast one guy off the court.
 

Bobby Jr

G.O.A.T.
We are playing in another doubles tournament in 3 weeks (3 doubles teams per club) and we need to win at least 1 match to save face and sanity. Our team is becoming the sacrificial lambs for the other teams. We are the one team that EVERYONE wants to see in their draw. What to do? What to do?
Maybe, so you have something finite and clear to implement - rather than stuff like "improve your volleying" (doh!) - you could try a couple of simple changed to how/where you play.

A couple of examples.

1/ On serves - on both sides hit your serves down the middle - not wide. This might seem odd sometimes, especially if is means serving to someone's forehand or being predictable - but tactically it also means the returner will almost always have a harder time keeping their return away from your net-man. So either your partner will get more volleys (and the returner will be nearer the middle - leaving more court open to hit to), the returner will go for more (more risky for them), or they'll just hit more winners and show you up (in which case you weren't going to win regardless). Then, once the returners are starting to make lots of meaningful returns, and only then, hit a few serves out wide.

2/ Commit to hitting every ground-stroke over the centre strap. If you're out wide: hit it over the centre strap. If you're more central: hit it over the centre strap. Again, it might not sound like much but it might get you out of of the singles habit of playing down the line as much which, in doubles, gives away too many free points (errors or easily covered by a good net man). Note: of course you wont end up hitting every ground-stroke over the centre strap - but this plan will at least help you get out of the habit of playing doubles like two singles players trying to end points when shots aren't really on.

3/ Change partners for the odd match - find someone who is good at doubles and ask them to take charge and call the play/pattern/tactic for you. Pretty soon you'll start to see how you can improve your doubles with your normal partner.
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
Singles is about the grind and lateral movement. Doubles is about shot making, hitting tight windows, and finesse. They are quite different. However, both reward huge serves. How well do you serve? If you and your partner are truly better than these guys, you'll be getting so many free points on serve, you should at least be taking them to tie breaks.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Single guy hit's up the middle, towards the weaker of the 2 player's. Singles wins almost every time.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
LeeD,

If two guys hit ground stroke shots straight to each other, ie with no or minimal running, do you think a slight difference in level would be a big deal?

In fact if the weaker guy had a bigger court to hit to, would that even make up for his weakness?

Recreational players do not possess the kind of power that blows people away by hitting straight to them. I have never seen such skill.
 
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Deleted member 120290

Guest
LeeD and user92626, kindly take your discussion elsewhere. I don't want this thread to be stamped, "Official LeeD Derailed Thread".
 
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Deleted member 120290

Guest
One older guy joined our club and will be playing in the tournament for us. He is the nightmare that we face in doubles tournaments. He never hits hard except for 1st serves. The guy is like a 60 yr old Asian and he is freakishly tall like 6'5" or something. He bunts back everything hard flat, heavy topspin, skidding slices and places them well. It is maddening. I have to generate all the pace and hit back to him. In singles he wouldn't be able to get away with that because I would hit angles and make him run to cover the whole court. But in doubles he waits all day or attacks the net and wins more points than not.

I'm slowly and reluctantly coming to realize that doubles is a net game with up and back movement, not side to side. Those who control the net, win. In singles it is usually he who controls the baseline, wins. I'll have to improve my consistency at the net and stop playing 2 singles game. In a tournament match, is it acceptable to drill the guy in the hip if he is sitting on top of the net on the serve return?
 

Enga

Hall of Fame
I think its absolutely fine to aim low and at a person. I mean, as long as theres no harmful intent, then its just part of the game. I often aim just outside of a person's hips. I havent hit anyone yet, as people tend to dodge out of the way, and I'm just aiming in their general direction near their feet, not necessarily at them. Its a big advantage to feel comfortable to hit the ball at someone because it makes the court feel wider. Just be ready to say sorry if your ball hits somewhere indecent...

Oh, and dont hold back. Some guys love it if you hit at them, and block it back
 

spaceman_spiff

Hall of Fame
In a tournament match, is it acceptable to drill the guy in the hip if he is sitting on top of the net on the serve return?

There's no rule against that. But keep in mind that, if they're right on top of the net and you hit it right at/to them, then they can use your pace and just block the volley for a winner or target your partner's feet and make him pop up an easy sitter.
 

MisterP

Hall of Fame
Obviously if we can't beat these weak doubles teams, then we are weaker. Frustrating thing is that individually the guys on our teams and I can manhandle the other teams' players in singles. For example my doubles partner and I have each beaten the championship team's players in singles by 6-1, 6-3, 6-0, etc. It is not even close. We can make them run all day with superior serves, ground strokes and footwork. Most of our opponents have weak 1HBH that can be exploited all day in singles.

However in doubles, we always lose 4-6, 5-7, 2-6, 6-7, etc. Some other teams are even worse than them and we cannot even beat them. It's like we are playing 2 singles vs 1 doubles team. We have little or no strategy, other than fire away at the opponents at the net.

We are playing in another doubles tournament in 3 weeks (3 doubles teams per club) and we need to win at least 1 match to save face and sanity. Our team is becoming the sacrificial lambs for the other teams. We are the one team that EVERYONE wants to see in their draw. What to do? What to do?

P.S. Actually I would love to hear from players from the other side of the net. Players who feast off doubles teams like us. What they do to beat us, what would trouble them, for example heavy topspin, drop shots, flat shots, etc.

What level is this?
 

MisterP

Hall of Fame
There's no rule against that. But keep in mind that, if they're right on top of the net and you hit it right at/to them, then they can use your pace and just block the volley for a winner or target your partner's feet and make him pop up an easy sitter.

Agreed. That's pretty much exactly what the net guy wants you to do, which is why he is standing so close. All he has to do is get a racquet on it, and the point is over with. The guys you want to hit directly at are the ones who are standing 6 or 8 feet back.
 
Thanks. You have some good points. My volleys are pretty solid and at times excellent but I also make more errors than the doubles experts. Their volleys are much stronger than their ground strokes comparatively.

As mainly a singles player, I don't really have the patience to play each point 6, 10, 14 strokes. But I guess I have to adapt if I want to win in doubles.

I have pretty solid ground strokes that I can hit hard flat or with topspin. Truth be told, I can drill the guys at the net pretty much on most returns esp. on 2nd serves but I don't want to hurt them or create a bad vibe. But I'm wondering if that is a tactic I should use or I am dumb for not using it to my advantage. I mean hitting at their hips, not chest or face.

actually doubles Points are shorter than Singles Points on average. if you get to a good net Position you can kill the Point with the first or second volley.

the key to doubles is to get to a good net Position, Close the middle and be the first one who can hit a volley DOWNWARDS.
 

blip

Rookie
I'm average at doubles but I always check the net guy. That means check him down the line, normal cross court and close to his hips. If the guy is a poacher, it's actually good to go at the body as they are moving the wrong way. Just like everyone said, the team that takes over the net (on serve and returns) usually wins...
 

onehandbh

G.O.A.T.
The general rule of thumb I give myself is that I can close the net to the degree I can cover the lobs thrown my way by the opponents.

If I am playing opponents that don't lob well, then I'll close and poach more. Against good lobbers I can't do that as much. Of course it also depends on how the opponents fare against my doubles partner's serve. It's always great to have a partner that can consistently hit a kick serve down the T on the deuce side. Great serve for poaching.

Recently played against an opponent that was able to hit high looping topspin shots crosscourt consistently. It made it difficult to poach and also it would require being further back from the net on the cross.
 

TennisCJC

Legend
One older guy joined our club and will be playing in the tournament for us. He is the nightmare that we face in doubles tournaments. He never hits hard except for 1st serves. The guy is like a 60 yr old Asian and he is freakishly tall like 6'5" or something. He bunts back everything hard flat, heavy topspin, skidding slices and places them well. It is maddening. I have to generate all the pace and hit back to him. In singles he wouldn't be able to get away with that because I would hit angles and make him run to cover the whole court. But in doubles he waits all day or attacks the net and wins more points than not.

I'm slowly and reluctantly coming to realize that doubles is a net game with up and back movement, not side to side. Those who control the net, win. In singles it is usually he who controls the baseline, wins. I'll have to improve my consistency at the net and stop playing 2 singles game. In a tournament match, is it acceptable to drill the guy in the hip if he is sitting on top of the net on the serve return?

Yes, net play is significantly more important in doubles. If you establish 2 up with your partner behind a decent serve or decent approach shot, the odds are over whelmingly in your favor to win the point. If you want to play doubles, you have to commit to attacking the net and learn the net skills - volley, 1/2 volley, overhead and transition to net skills - approach shots and spin serve.

Yes, in competitive match (league or tourney) it is acceptable to hit through the net player. You can hit serve return at the net player. Also, if you get a high volley while you are at net, a standard play is to hit it "short to short" and hit through the net player in front of you. If I am at the net and hitting through the opposing net player, I try to keep my shot down and not hit at their face. But, realize what goes around, comes around. If you start head hunting and going for body shots, expect the same to come back your way. I don't get upset when players hit at me as I accept it is the percentage shot and I will do the same thing when it's my turn.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
TenFanLA....
2 vs 1 is exactly HOW you beat a good doubles team, consisting of individual BAD singles players!
Learn from the discussion, don't stick your head in the sand because you can apply the lesson.
You beat a good doubles team, consisting of two bad singles players, by isolating one of them, drawing the team together, which open's up the alleys for you to hit your winners!
Don't be one of those youngsters who ignore history. Instead, LEARN the lessons most old farts have learned.
And don't expect to beat a good doubles TEAM by hitting just to one of the players. You have to draw them together, cause confusion as to who hit's the ball, thus opening the court for you winners.
 
A huge part of dubs is player positioning and intelligent shot selection. You end up playing a lot of shots that you simply wouldn't play in singles as the court which you can aim into is smaller because of the net player. You need to have a good idea exactly where you're hitting it and what the likely response is from the opponent, so that you can setup the next shot. It's really about constructing points IMO as opposed to singles where you 'bash and run'. The right shot selection can only really come from playing matches and getting used to what works and what doesn't. You be better off pairing up with an experienced dubs player who can guide you through a match.

Have a look at the video below and see what shots / patterns work and the ones that don't. LeeD would get absolutely killed at this level!


Don't be one of those youngsters who ignore history. Instead, LEARN the lessons most old farts have learned.

Any of the 'youngsters' in the video above would beat you comfortably whether in singles or dubs. You don't have to be 66 years old to know how to play.
 
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mightyrick

Legend
Yes, in competitive match (league or tourney) it is acceptable to hit through the net player. You can hit serve return at the net player. Also, if you get a high volley while you are at net, a standard play is to hit it "short to short" and hit through the net player in front of you. If I am at the net and hitting through the opposing net player, I try to keep my shot down and not hit at their face. But, realize what goes around, comes around. If you start head hunting and going for body shots, expect the same to come back your way. I don't get upset when players hit at me as I accept it is the percentage shot and I will do the same thing when it's my turn.

The term "hit at the net man" is way too vague. IMHO, there is acceptable and unacceptable versions of that play.

In the San Diego doubles match, I "went at" Navigator three or four times. But when I do that, the goal is not to "go at" the person. Rather, I am targeting a very specific location extremely close to the person. The point of such a shot is to either force the net man to try to hit a high reaching/angled volley... or to try to hit a low volley very close to their body (a jammed shot).

To me, anything else is simply unethical once you reach maybe high 3.5 or low 4.0 level. Because at that level, you are good enough to target your shots appropriately and win the point.

On top of that, tactically speaking, it's a bad idea (at that level) to go straight at the body anyways. Because all a guy has to do is turn the racquet face to block the ball back. There's no easier backhand volley than the one where the ball comes straight at you and you barely have to move to make contact.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Those guys are pretty good! Much better than the San Diego and Berkeley doubles.
Would be nice to see what Papa Mango, Shroud, RajS, Yax, and Matt would think about this doubles. Add Dave, Cheetah, RKelly too.
But, is this social get together doubles, or a real competitive match?
SD, and Berkeley, nobody was really trying to WIN, everyone was just social hit and giggles.
 

Off The Wall

Semi-Pro
These guys are good. They show good court awareness. I saw one guy move for a shot that had not yet been hit. Awesome.

I used to play open doubles in the 70's. There's a lot to it. Awareness or "reading the court" is an acquired skill.

To the Op, good doubles players play the next contact point. For starters, if their next shot is going to be a difficult shot, then close. If it is going to be struck aggressively, then don't. Good luck.
 
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