At this moment, would you put Djokovic ahead of Nadal?

?

  • Nadal still greater

    Votes: 93 49.5%
  • Djokovic is ahead now

    Votes: 95 50.5%

  • Total voters
    188

tennismex123

New User
Too all the people that say it’s ALL about slams.
What about this scenario. A player wins the AO 21 times in his career for say age 17-40. But it’s the only event he wins all year every year so he never gets #1 or any WTF and is completely lob sided at slams. Is he still GOAT as he has 21 slams ?
Why do you go to the "extreme"? We are not talking here about only slams, Nadal has a very good resume outside the slams too, Novak has a better resume outside the slams than Nadal but Nadal is still better at slams so personally I put Nadal ahead of Djokovic TODAY.
 

tennismex123

New User
I put Djokovic ahead of Nadal even before he won Wimbledon and nothing has changed now. Nadal has won 6 slams outside of Roland Garros and whilst i agree his record is incredible there, i just think it's wrong to rank him so highly when his tally is mostly based on one slam. Also he is still missing a WTF title. He also hasn't won all the masters and both of those feats have been achieved by Djokovic.

When i think of great tennis players, slam count is obviously a major factor but i also consider greatest across all surfaces. Djokovic and Federer are still great clay players and have both made the final of Roland Garros several times. It certainly doesn't feel like they are lacking on clay when you look at their overall statistics and it's more that they've been stopped (especially Federer) by the greatest clay player ever to play the sport. The same is not true for Nadal as he has 3 other slams to contend at yet has only won 2 slams since 2010 outside of Roland Garros.
You are telling that Djokovic and Federer are great clay players because they have made RG final several times... I may remember you that Nadal also has 3 Wimbledon finals, 4 AO finals and 1 USO final but you dont consider the finals made by Nadal. Wrong comparison.
 

tacou

G.O.A.T.
Why would you even consider Novac as the greater of the two with one major being the difference? The rules don't change, if you can consider Novac the greater of the two with one slam difference then why not two, three, five or ten slams difference? Surely it reduces the idea of greatness to absurdity.
Well, going by the rules of math, one is considerably smaller than 10. In fact, it is 9 smaller.
 

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
Yall are a trip :) so easy to win 12 FO's :D its only the greatest acheivement in tennis history AND he has 6 more. Im sure Novak would have won against 06/07/08 Fed at Wimby :)
 

Dartagnan64

Legend
Not sure about that. Djokovic has only 1 Slam on clay. Nadal has multiple Slams on all 3 surfaces, the only active player to do so.
Djokovic has had the misfortune of playing in an era with the greatest clay player of all time. Hard to win clay majors in that instance. Of course Rafa has had to contend with Fed and Djokovic as well so they've all cannibalized slams from each other. But you can't point out surface wins as a differentiator in my opinion.

Personally while I love Nadal's intensity and Federer's panache, Djokovic's machine like consistency is the current model of success and he has to be the leader in the clubhouse for GOAT if present form continues.
 

asifallasleep

Hall of Fame
The only major Nadal will possibly win more of is the FO. The Joker will win more AO, USO and Wimbledon titles before he's done. It will he Fed-Joker or Joker-Fed as GOAT. Sorry Rafa.
 

Benjamin Rio

Professional
You are telling that Djokovic and Federer are great clay players because they have made RG final several times... I may remember you that Nadal also has 3 Wimbledon finals, 4 AO finals and 1 USO final but you dont consider the finals made by Nadal. Wrong comparison.
1/ Fed lost to clay goat Nadal.
2/ Fed never lost 1s round at the FO while Nadal did at the AO Wimb and 2nd round USO + RR at WTF.

Here's the big difference.
 

NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
Why do you go to the "extreme"? We are not talking here about only slams, Nadal has a very good resume outside the slams too, Novak has a better resume outside the slams than Nadal but Nadal is still better at slams so personally I put Nadal ahead of Djokovic TODAY.
The correct way of saying this is that currently Nadal being better in 1 Slam is better than Djokovic being better in 2 Slams because he was more dominant.
 

itrium84

Semi-Pro
This whole thread confirms the fact that Grand Slam is heavily underrated, even by Novak's fanbase.

Grand Slam record is most important criteria, but you can't reduce it to the sum of GS titles only. Most important is - Grand Slam itself. That's the feat only Novak has achieved, beside Laver. I understand other fanbases are actively trying to make this achievement smaller than it is, because their favourites never made it, so they find "non-calendar" argument more important than it is. What I don't understand is why Novak's fanbase doesn't recognize the scope of this achievement?
This alone is worth more than 1 GS title difference in GOAT race.

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swordtennis

Legend
This whole thread confirms the fact that Grand Slam is heavily underrated, even by Novak's fanbase.

Grand Slam record is most important criteria, but you can't reduce it to the sum of GS titles only. Most important is - Grand Slam itself. That's the feat only Novak has achieved, beside Laver. I understand other fanbases are actively trying to make this achievement smaller than it is, because their favourites never made it, so they find "non-calendar" argument more important than it is. What I don't understand is why Novak's fanbase doesn't recognize the scope of this achievement?
This alone is worth more than 1 GS title difference in GOAT race.

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I think for the most part most of us are very humble. Less bragging than fedal. Yet djokovic just keeps winning while fedal fans diminish with hypotheticals. Winning 4 majors in a row is unparrallleled.
 

itrium84

Semi-Pro
Djokovic is the only guy with golden masters. It is an incredible achievement, but many Novak's fans are trying to oversize it. In terms of GOAT race, it's a little more than trivia. It's place is not to be argument for itself, but a significant part of variety argument. Novak has won all big titles, and he is a player with most variety among big3. This is surely not important as Grand Slam record, but it can't be dismissed.

Although Nadal's variety is purposefully not recognised enough within other fanbases, and it is overblown within his own fanbase, there's no good argument against the fact that Novak is best all-around player, with Fed close behind, and Rafa on the 3rd place.

In terms of comparing Novak and Rafa, there's equally strong counter-argument against Novak's variety - Rafa is a clay god. As much as some posters are trying to avoid this, there's no way around it.

This is why it's futile to throw distribution arguments around - all of big 3 are so close to each other with Novak's and Fed's variety and Rafa's clay resume, that any attempt to differentiate between them is drown before it's made.

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itrium84

Semi-Pro
I think for the most part most of us are very humble. Less bragging than fedal. Yet djokovic just keeps winning while fedal fans diminish with hypotheticals. Winning 4 majors in a row is unparrallleled.
No we are not humble. No, there's no less bragging. It's something else.

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zvelf

Semi-Pro
Djokovic's non-calendar "grand slam", having 5 WTF championships to Nadal's 0, having spent more than 2 years longer ranked #1, and having the superior h2h record more than makes up for the difference of 2 major wins.
 

chimneysweep

Semi-Pro
This topic is interesting only the in the sense as it is test of are majors everything, yes or no. It also is a way to test consistency and inconsistency of various posters. Some of the ones who are saying Nadal is automatically over Djokovic due to 2 more majors, are the same ones who are trying to argue Navratilova and Evert over Serena with 5 fewer majors since they have more small tournament wins or something else. For these people hypocrites. And some of them are people who would never put Nadal over Federer if he reached 22 by only RG titles for instance, or say 4 RG titles and 1 non RG title, saying his record is too clay heavy, Federer is ahead in some other stats, etc... That too is inconsistent.
 

itrium84

Semi-Pro
During 2015-2016, Novak has made the greatest 12 month run in tennis history, achieving Grand Slam, absolute Masters domination and atp points all-time record combined with elo points all-time record. This is why I have no problem with naming him BOAT - no player in tennis history dominated the field and the opposition as he did, for a whole year.
During 2011 Slam season, he made similar achievement, but within the smaller time-frame.
You can refuse to name this "BOAT", but you can't refuse the ultimate domination argument.
This one plays big role in GOAT race, I would say right behind the Grand Slam record.

Now, this is what Novak's fanbase refuses to recognize - Fed and Rafa are not much far behind Novak within this criteria. Novak does have an edge in domination argument, but that's it - an edge. Fedal domination periods should not be made smaller than they are.

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Pantera

Hall of Fame
18 million dollars

versus

16 million dollars, 5 mansions, a beach house, a couple lambos and porches...

Some will choose the first, some will choose the latter...
No. You gave the nod to 18 million dollars. Lambo and porshes....urgh....the extra 2 million would mean Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 KR and Nissan GT-R alpha. And a yacht!!!
 

powerangle

Legend
No. You gave the nod to 18 million dollars. Lambo and porshes....urgh....the extra 2 million would mean Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 KR and Nissan GT-R alpha. And a yacht!!!
You must have difficulty reading. I also wrote "5 mansions". Of course it depends where the mansions are located, but here in the Silicon Valley of California, a standard house is already over a million dollars each. I know I'd rather have 16 million dollars and own 5 mansions with equity of 5 to 10 million dollars. And I'm already being kind to you. In the more expensive areas here, the large houses are going for $6+ million dollars each.
 

paolo2143

Rookie
In my view Nole is already on par with Rafa when you consider all the evidence and their achievements in tennis, the next few years will possibly determine who ends up the superior of the two
 

GabeT

Legend
If the Olympics aren't part of the ATP tour then why did players receive ATP points in the Olympic Tennis events?
They don’t anymore. And I don’t doubt players find Olympics very prestigious but since it’s a once-every-four-years tournament it can’t really be compared to the rest of what players aim for.
 

Spanglish72

Rookie
They don’t anymore. And I don’t doubt players find Olympics very prestigious but since it’s a once-every-four-years tournament it can’t really be compared to the rest of what players aim for.
Only having the chance to win it once every 4 years makes it even more meaningful, just like winning the World Cup is more prestigious than a Champions League title.

Half the world doesn't even know what a Grand Slam is, but show them an Olympic Gold medal or World Cup trophy and they think you're a GOD.
 

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
Some factors (not exhaustive ) to consider (this is a comparison strictly between the big 3):

Most weeks at #1: 1-Federer (310) 2-Djokovic (260) 3-Nadal (196)
Most year-ends at #1: 1-Federer (5) 2-Djokovic (5) 3-Nadal (4) - used overall # of weeks to break tie
Most titles overall: 1-Federer (102) 2-Nadal (82) 3-Djokovic (75)
Most tier 1 titles (slams/WTF/masters combined): 1-Federer (54) 2-Djokovic (54) 3-Nadal (52)
Most slams overall: 1-Federer (20) 2-Nadal (18) 3-Djokovic (16)
Most titles at every slam : 1-Federer (8-6-5-1) 2-Djokovic (7-5-3-1) 3-Nadal (12-3-2-1)
Most WTFs: 1-Federer (6) 2-Djokovic (5) 3-Nadal (0)
Most masters: 1-Nadal (34) 2-Djokovic (33) 3-Federer (28)
Most of the 9: 1-Djokovic (9) 2-Nadal (7) 3-Federer (7) - used overall # masters to break tie
Most dominant season: 1-Djokovic (2015: 3 slams + WTF + 6 masters) 2-Federer (2006: 3 slams + WTF + 4 masters) 3-Nadal
Most consistency/longevity: 1-Federer (15 seasons of winning at least 1 tier1) - 2-Nadal (13) 3-Djokovic (10)
Best winning % overall: 1-Nadal (83) 2-Djokovic (82.7) 3-Federer (82.2)
Highest winning % across surfaces: 1-Djokovic (G84.1-H84-C79.6) - 2-Federer (G87.4-H83.7-C76.1) - 3-Nadal (C91.8-G78-H77.3)
Best head to head vs other big 3: 1-Djokovic (26-22F/28-26N) 2-Nadal (24-16F) 3-Federer
Best head to head vs top 10: 1-Djokovic (68.6) 2-Nadal (65.2) 3-Federer (65)

The ones that Fed is most at risk of losing are weeks at #1, year ends at #1 and tier 1 titles (to Djoko) + slams to Nadal.
Nadal and Djoko are a toss for masters
(I could just count slams instead but seems too boring, sorry;))
 
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GabeT

Legend
Only having the chance to win it once every 4 years makes it even more meaningful, just like winning the World Cup is more prestigious than a Champions League title.

Half the world doesn't even know what a Grand Slam is, but show them an Olympic Gold medal or World Cup trophy and they think you're a GOD.
Not denying it’s very prestigious. But it’s hard to include with the rest of the ATP tour events. In any case I don’t think it helps nadal’s position that much.
 

King No1e

Legend
Whoa! My vote broke a 63-63 vote tie! Has any TT poll ever been more even?

The Nadal-Djokovic rivalry is so epic, they're considered dead even in the GOAT debate.
 

Spanglish72

Rookie
Not denying it’s very prestigious. But it’s hard to include with the rest of the ATP tour events. In any case I don’t think it helps nadal’s position that much.
"You know, we have the best players in the world participating in arguably the fifth Grand Slam. It’s of that importance for all of us, even more, because it happens every four years." - Novak Djokovic 2016

Sounds like Djokovic even thinks it helps Nadal's position...
 

GabeT

Legend
"You know, we have the best players in the world participating in arguably the fifth Grand Slam. It’s of that importance for all of us, even more, because it happens every four years." - Novak Djokovic 2016

Sounds like Djokovic even thinks it helps Nadal's position...
But how do you think it helps. If you believe as many do here that slam count is all that matters then the Olympics is irrelevant. If you don’t think slams are all that matters what is an Olympic title worth to you? A WtF? 2 WTFs?
 

er4claw

Rookie
Nadal has a giant hole in his resume. WTF nadal, he dont got it. No matter what VB says people can just be like WTF, he hasnt won everything yet.
 

titoelcolombiano

Hall of Fame
The 18 slams to 16 is still the key factor for Rafa but that could be equalled by the end of the AO next year at which point Djoker wins the tie-breaker based on the # 1 stats. Imagine Rafa & Djoker battling it out at the RG 2020 final for # 19 - that would be mouth-watering.
 

Subway Tennis

Hall of Fame
I'm a Nadal-Murray guy, so take my views with a grain of salt.

If I were measuring Novak vs Nadal up to this point I would say Novak is the more complete player, but Rafa has had the better career. But it's a closely run thing.

For example, if Novak had won RG, that would have given him a freakish domination stat (holding all four majors simultaneously twice in a career) to go along with an amazing consistency stat (total majors) along with surface spread (HC and Grass excellence, plus beating Nadal on clay and winning RG) which would have probably put him at the top in this era for me.
 

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
The main arguments for Djoko over Nadal are:
- more weeks at #1
- more tier 1 titles (54 vs 52)
- winning every tier 1 vs 3 missing from Nadal's resume
- the Nole slam (4 in a row)
- most dominant season ever (2015)
- leads head to head vs both top 10 and Fedal

The main arguments for Nadal over Djoko are:
- 2 more slams
- more titles overall
- more extreme domination of 1 surface (evened out by Djoko having better records in 2 out of the 3)

Well, unless slams are the only thing that matters to you, it seems like a no brainer :unsure:
 
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Tommy Haas

Hall of Fame
As Sampras once said, it's all about the slams. Nadal has two more than Djoko. When the slam titles are tied, that's when you compare the other records.
 

Fiero425

Hall of Fame
Djokovic is the only guy with golden masters. It is an incredible achievement, but many Novak's fans are trying to oversize it. In terms of GOAT race, it's a little more than trivia. It's place is not to be argument for itself, but a significant part of variety argument. Novak has won all big titles, and he is a player with most variety among big3. This is surely not important as Grand Slam record, but it can't be dismissed.

Although Nadal's variety is purposefully not recognised enough within other fanbases, and it is overblown within his own fanbase, there's no good argument against the fact that Novak is best all-around player, with Fed close behind, and Rafa on the 3rd place.

In terms of comparing Novak and Rafa, there's equally strong counter-argument against Novak's variety - Rafa is a clay god. As much as some posters are trying to avoid this, there's no way around it.

This is why it's futile to throw distribution arguments around - all of big 3 are so close to each other with Novak's and Fed's variety and Rafa's clay resume, that any attempt to differentiate between them is drown before it's made.

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Novak has records Rafa can't touch; esp. his consistency, versatility, & number of champ. over multiple surfaces! Nole has won 5 YEC whereas Rafa hasn't had much of a sniff barely making a few finals! There's also this anomaly of Rafa NEVER defended a title off clay! Fedal have little chance of achieving their own Nole-Slam as well! :unsure::cautious:
 

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
As Sampras once said, it's all about the slams. Nadal has two more than Djoko. When the slam titles are tied, that's when you compare the other records.
Oh of course Sampras would say that given how much he sucked at masters ;)
In any case, one could argue that Djoko's current slam record is superior to Nadal's:

Nadal = 12RG - 3USO - 2W - 1AO
Djokovic = 7AO - 5W - 3USO - 1AO

That means that Nadal has more titles than Djoko in 1 slam out of the 4 (1/4 of the slams). Djoko has more titles than Nadal in 2 out of the 4. (half the slams)
So, while Nadal is the most dominant at 1 slam, Djoko has the better record overall (across the 4 slams).
There is more to pertinent analysis of data than simply adding slams ;)
 
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veroniquem

Bionic Poster
Novak has records Rafa can't touch; esp. his consistency, versatility, & number of champ. over multiple surfaces! Nole has won 5 YEC whereas Rafa hasn't had much of a sniff barely making a few finals! There's also this anomaly of Rafa NEVER defended a title off clay! Fedal have little chance of achieving their own Nole-Slam as well! :unsure::cautious:
Of course. It's just a matter of popularity on this board. People are more impulsive (about whom they prefer) than rational.
If you think about it, there should not be a debate at all: weeks and year ends at #1 are huge, then there is the # of tier 1 titles combined - yes, Nadal has 2 slams and 1 master more but Djoko has 5 WTF more and on top there is the fact that none is missing from Djoko's resume whereas Nadal is currently missing 3 (WTF, Paris and Miami). That is not even mentioning the 4 in a row for Nole or the head to head.
But people will go against hard facts rather than go against their sentimental bias. Emotion is the biggest factor in sport after all.
 

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
Quite correct:
2 slams + 1 master = 5000
5 WTF = 7500 (max)

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You beat me to it! :)
I was just going to add that 5 WTF are actually worth a lot more than 2 slams and 1 master.
Djoko lost 2 RR on his way to his 5 titles, so it is actually 7100 (take off 200 points for each RR lost) vs 5000. Still a considerable difference, prestige or not.
 
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