At what age do results matter???
- Thread starter ga tennis
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I don't have an intelligent or answer based on personal experience for raising a potential pro player.
I think we can all agree that results at a young age really should have no effect on a child's later potential.
What I just wonder though is whether losing a lot when young could possibly have a negative effect by getting the child used to losing?
I can think anecdotally of the williams sisters who were very dominant as young juniors and then didn't really compete in organized tournaments until they were professionals. I have to wonder if the early dominance made a profound effect on their mental game -- in thinking they always should and would win over anyone else.
I think we can all agree that results at a young age really should have no effect on a child's later potential.
What I just wonder though is whether losing a lot when young could possibly have a negative effect by getting the child used to losing?
I can think anecdotally of the williams sisters who were very dominant as young juniors and then didn't really compete in organized tournaments until they were professionals. I have to wonder if the early dominance made a profound effect on their mental game -- in thinking they always should and would win over anyone else.
Thats a GREAT point. I kinda feel the same way wanting her to only play college players and men until she is 14 and technically perfect. My dad thinks that i should keep her out of tournaments until she is 100% ready with no holes in her game. Her coach thinks that she needs to play tournaments for the mental and psychological development. I like the way Richard handled his girls.I am torn and not sure which is the best route for my daughter.
At what age are they allowed to play professional events?
Ash_Smith
Legend
Can't play WTA or ITF womens circuit before 14.
Between 14 and 15 can play max of 8 ITF's (no more than three at $50,000) and can receive a max of 3 wild card into WTA events, plus Fed Cup.
Between 15 and 16 can play a max of 10 pro events (ITF or WTA), plus Tour Champs and Fed cup.
Between 16 and 17 a max of 12 pro events
Between 17 and 18 a max of 18 pro events
Between 14 and 15 can play max of 8 ITF's (no more than three at $50,000) and can receive a max of 3 wild card into WTA events, plus Fed Cup.
Between 15 and 16 can play a max of 10 pro events (ITF or WTA), plus Tour Champs and Fed cup.
Between 16 and 17 a max of 12 pro events
Between 17 and 18 a max of 18 pro events
Ash_Smith
Legend
I think you're right in one sense, in that there is too much emphasis put on results too early (certainly I feel this s the case over here). On the other hand though, players do have to be "great" by 16 (depending on your definition of great of course). Whilst there is a second window of opportunity between 16-18(ish) to develop coordination chain based tasks, it is much less effective than the earlier window (up to around 12-13) - so the groundwork must be done.
So for me, great in terms of tec/tac/phys/mental skills by 16 or thereabouts is essential, great in terms of results starts at 16.
So for me, great in terms of tec/tac/phys/mental skills by 16 or thereabouts is essential, great in terms of results starts at 16.
Alohajrtennis
Semi-Pro
GA,
FYI, I have been reading this post and trying to respond since you posted it. However, I keep typing posts and deleting them.
Don't know what to tell you.
By any objective measure, the prospect of beecoming a pro tennis player, even if she won 12U sectionals at the age of 10 are dismal.
The fact is, you can hire a bunch of math geeks an/or statisticians to comb through the past data and draw charts and graphs for you, but that will only tell you what happened in the past. The future is unwritten. Your daughter is not a statistic.
If you wait until she is "100% technically perfect with no holes in her game" she will never play a tournament. Think about that in a literal sense. So, then it comes down to your judgement, or her coach or your dad to determine if she has no holes in her game. When that's determined then you play her right? Even the pros are always trying to improve technically and work to improve holes in their game. All I'm saying is with a 10 yr old you could be waiting to play a tournament a long time. Now, when you do finally play there's going to be expectations on winning, right? If you answer yes to any of my questions you are setting her up to be a results based athlete. Not good. Short term fast burn out path.
Keep her eye on the process, learning, improving, always trying 100%, perfroming your best, making adjustments, having a good attitude. Long term always developing path.
No one can contol winning, even the best pros will tell you this. The only thing you can contol is effort and attitude.
Read "Fearless Tennis by Jeff H. Greenwald or get the CD's. Look him up, interesting background. At age 46 he still plays some Futures and Challengers, not like he used to but he's still winning a match here and there at that level applying his principles. Age group wise he's been #1 in the world ITF 35 and unders, I believe. More recently he won the world championship 45's.
Judge the effort and the attitude. When she gives 100% effort and she has a good attitude, be sure to praise that. CRYING during or after a match does not mean she was trying, might mean she cares, but cares about what? Pleasing you, her coach, grampa, her friends or herself? The answer should be herself....... Anyalize the results and learn from them. Don't judge results and certainly never over-emphisize them. Of course we play to win, but if you put the results(winning) before the process(playing one point at a time, measuring effort and attitude) there will be limitations built in. Play and develop as an athlete in this way and I promise you will have a fierce competitor and there will be many more wins than losses.
Just play and learn to love the battle.
Now if you decide to play full court and skip the short court stuff, fine. If you want to play a limited and calculted schedule, fine. Just play.
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Ash_Smith
Legend
Sorry, only just read this back. Good advice, when our players start their touring career we look for 2:1 win:loss ratio over the first year or two.
justinmadison
Semi-Pro
This subject has been discussed a couple of times. I will include a link to one discussion and a quote from that thread.
The data are clear. Most people agree with the statement … If you are a top 12’s player it does not mean you will be a top 18’s player. The part many people miss is … If you are a top 18’s player you were a top 12’s player. Put another way … If you are not a top 12’s player you will not be a top 18’s player.
During the last discussion I looked at the ranking history of the top 10 boys 18’s. Almost all were elite players in 12’s.
Results matter in 12’s.
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=4549022&highlight=ranking#post4549022
The data are clear. Most people agree with the statement … If you are a top 12’s player it does not mean you will be a top 18’s player. The part many people miss is … If you are a top 18’s player you were a top 12’s player. Put another way … If you are not a top 12’s player you will not be a top 18’s player.
During the last discussion I looked at the ranking history of the top 10 boys 18’s. Almost all were elite players in 12’s.
Results matter in 12’s.
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=4549022&highlight=ranking#post4549022
gplracer
Hall of Fame
I think the point is that success in the 12s does not guarrantee success later. BUT if a player is not already a standout by 12 then the chances of being a standout by 18 is very small. There are always exceptions but not many. Most of the stand out players who are not highly ranked at 12 could be if they went the tournament route AND played in their age division. Players like the William sisters played a very limited amount of tournaments and Pete Sampras played up. Agassi played up as well. He was playing in the 12s at 9 and 10.
Alohajrtennis
Semi-Pro
I agree with this sentiment. Learning how to win is a skill in and of itself. Some kids have it naturally, others take longer to figure it out. That's what you see in 12's all the time. Girls with happy feet and confidence and no technical skills beating kids with perfect strokes. Shot selection under pressure, etc. dealing with the isolation, etc. I think she needs to play, and after she has played maybe you can be a better judge of how much she needs to play based on what you and your coach see and what she's getting out of it.
"Just wanted to see what my fellow posters think about this. I know for my 10 year old daughter results dont matter just as long as shes improving and doing it right.What age do results really matter if the plan is to become a money making pro??"
Given your question, "results" would matter when your daughter can compete and defeat professional level players, at least the level of professional players required to be a "money making pro," which I assume you mean actually making a living at tennis (better chance winning your state lottery of course but that's another discussion). Talk about the 80/20 rule; you better be one of the handful of best players on this planet to "make a living at it."
However, if that's the goal, then "results" are by-products and shouldn't be the focus. The focus is how best to prepare your daughter (physically, mentally, technique, form, etc.) to be the best player she can be (taking into consideration the reality of life; what you can do; how much $ you can spend; etc.) so that she can try to compete at the professional level (when will that be? when she starts winning even entry level satellite professional tournaments, etc.).
I come from a family with pro athletes (dad played in the NBA; I played Div. I) and it doesn't matter what sport, the best in the world in a given sport have a very unique mixture of ingredients which no one "completely" understands (and, of yea, there's luck).
Only you know your daughter so do the best you can and let the marbles fall where they may . . . the creme generally rises to the top. All the money in the world can't buy a champion b/c some of the key ingredients can't be bought
(hence, don't forget where Venus/Serena grew up and in that neighborhood, you are born with "hunger," and that alone can take you a long way; of course, they are talented also, but just making a point).
This sport of junior tennis is very morbid. I feel for you as I have a 12 yr. old daughter that loves this sport (plays at the sectional/nat'l level) but I caution you against any focus on the professional level (not that it can't be a goal or dream but it's a by-product and it's why we have so many insane tennis parents). My daughter dreams of playing professional tennis and good for her but as parents our job is to keep the big picture in mind and, of yea, preparing our kids to have good, productive and happy lives outside of TENNIS (that day will come, even for the best on this planet). I meet so many unhappy teaching pros at local clubs making very little money (many of which were nationally ranked; dreamed of being a pro; tennis was their focal point in life, etc. - in the real world, that's what happens to many that come out of the world of junior tennis).
Sorry to ramble but I think these points are connected . . . however, I'll admit I'm not a fan of this sport and I'd have no issue if my daughter quit tomorrow . . . so when do results matter? when you feel they matter
Given your question, "results" would matter when your daughter can compete and defeat professional level players, at least the level of professional players required to be a "money making pro," which I assume you mean actually making a living at tennis (better chance winning your state lottery of course but that's another discussion). Talk about the 80/20 rule; you better be one of the handful of best players on this planet to "make a living at it."
However, if that's the goal, then "results" are by-products and shouldn't be the focus. The focus is how best to prepare your daughter (physically, mentally, technique, form, etc.) to be the best player she can be (taking into consideration the reality of life; what you can do; how much $ you can spend; etc.) so that she can try to compete at the professional level (when will that be? when she starts winning even entry level satellite professional tournaments, etc.).
I come from a family with pro athletes (dad played in the NBA; I played Div. I) and it doesn't matter what sport, the best in the world in a given sport have a very unique mixture of ingredients which no one "completely" understands (and, of yea, there's luck).
Only you know your daughter so do the best you can and let the marbles fall where they may . . . the creme generally rises to the top. All the money in the world can't buy a champion b/c some of the key ingredients can't be bought
(hence, don't forget where Venus/Serena grew up and in that neighborhood, you are born with "hunger," and that alone can take you a long way; of course, they are talented also, but just making a point).This sport of junior tennis is very morbid. I feel for you as I have a 12 yr. old daughter that loves this sport (plays at the sectional/nat'l level) but I caution you against any focus on the professional level (not that it can't be a goal or dream but it's a by-product and it's why we have so many insane tennis parents). My daughter dreams of playing professional tennis and good for her but as parents our job is to keep the big picture in mind and, of yea, preparing our kids to have good, productive and happy lives outside of TENNIS (that day will come, even for the best on this planet). I meet so many unhappy teaching pros at local clubs making very little money (many of which were nationally ranked; dreamed of being a pro; tennis was their focal point in life, etc. - in the real world, that's what happens to many that come out of the world of junior tennis).
Sorry to ramble but I think these points are connected . . . however, I'll admit I'm not a fan of this sport and I'd have no issue if my daughter quit tomorrow
. . . so when do results matter? when you feel they matter SprintCoach
New User
Excellent post.."Just wanted to see what my fellow posters think about this. I know for my 10 year old daughter results dont matter just as long as shes improving and doing it right.What age do results really matter if the plan is to become a money making pro??"
Given your question, "results" would matter when your daughter can compete and defeat professional level players, at least the level of professional players required to be a "money making pro," which I assume you mean actually making a living at tennis (better chance winning your state lottery of course but that's another discussion). Talk about the 80/20 rule; you better be one of the handful of best players on this planet to "make a living at it."
However, if that's the goal, then "results" are by-products and shouldn't be the focus. The focus is how best to prepare your daughter (physically, mentally, technique, form, etc.) to be the best player she can be (taking into consideration the reality of life; what you can do; how much $ you can spend; etc.) so that she can try to compete at the professional level (when will that be? when she starts winning even entry level satellite professional tournaments, etc.).
I come from a family with pro athletes (dad played in the NBA; I played Div. I) and it doesn't matter what sport, the best in the world in a given sport have a very unique mixture of ingredients which no one "completely" understands (and, of yea, there's luck).
Only you know your daughter so do the best you can and let the marbles fall where they may . . . the creme generally rises to the top. All the money in the world can't buy a champion b/c some of the key ingredients can't be bought
This sport of junior tennis is very morbid. I feel for you as I have a 12 yr. old daughter that loves this sport (plays at the sectional/nat'l level) but I caution you against any focus on the professional level (not that it can't be a goal or dream but it's a by-product and it's why we have so many insane tennis parents). My daughter dreams of playing professional tennis and good for her but as parents our job is to keep the big picture in mind and, of yea, preparing our kids to have good, productive and happy lives outside of TENNIS (that day will come, even for the best on this planet). I meet so many unhappy teaching pros at local clubs making very little money (many of which were nationally ranked; dreamed of being a pro; tennis was their focal point in life, etc. - in the real world, that's what happens to many that come out of the world of junior tennis).
Sorry to ramble but I think these points are connected . . . however, I'll admit I'm not a fan of this sport and I'd have no issue if my daughter quit tomorrow
gplracer
Hall of Fame
It always matters. A pro player is the lucky person who has the skill and mental motivation to get the job done. It is a very rare person that has both of these things. Some people have the drive but not the skill. Some have the skill but not the desire. At younger ages it is important to have positive experiences that will encourage a youngster to continue to love the game. That does not mean winning all the time but it does not mean losing all the time. There should be a good balance of both. That balance is different for each child. Too many wins too young can be a bad thing. Look at Al Parker as an example. He won the double grandslam for juniors at 12.
goran_ace
Hall of Fame
Not a great example. Al Parker didn't burn out, his career was cut short by a congenital back condition.
http://onlineathens.com/stories/012499/dog_0124990016.shtml
So, of your top 10 list 4 were top 10 players in the 12s, 2 were 11-30, 2 were 80 or below, and 2 were not ranked (not including the 3 others). So, guessing at about how many players were in and out of the top rankings at that time, about a 1 in 5 chance of being a top 18 year old if you are a top 12 year old; about a 1 in 40 chance if you are in the next 50, about a 1 in 40 chance if you are in the 50 below that; and 1 in some number of hundreds or thousands if you are not ranked.
There will always be a couple of kids who were not ranked as 12 year olds who become among the top in the world. In one sense, that means that the 12 year old rankings are meaningless. However, statistically, it is much more likely (but not actually likely) if a kid is ranked in the 12s.
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My daughter is soon to be 11. She is working really hard but still does not have the RAGE TO MASTER. I keep telling myself that it will happen soon and she will become obsessed with tennis. Im starting to think that the Rage To Master is not going to ever happen with her. I see some of her tennis friends that you have to drag off the court. I know i should not do social comparisons but its only human nature. So many people tell me that the rage to master comes later with some kids i just wish i knew when. My daughter is very well rounded she loves school and plays soccer as well as basketball. I am coming to the conclusion that maybe MY DREAM of her playing pro tennis might not be her dream. She is SOOOOOO talented and an amazing athlete and tells me she wants to be a pro but i just dont see the love for it.Im starting to think she says she wants to be a pro because she knows thats what i wanna hear. Im still hoping that she gets the Rage but if not im fine with her playing college tennis or doing whatever makes her happy. I just wish i could do something to turn on the rage but i think that its gonna have to come from within. If she gets the rage to master within the next two years imma be sitting courtside at Ashe in a few years watching her crush forehands!
TennisCoachIN
Rookie
gatennis- I use to be an outstanding long distance running and I have a son who is absolutely fanastic. He is so naturally gifted. The problem is he says he wants to be an elite level runner, but doesn't have the drive to do what is necessary. I really really want him to be an elite level runner at 13 he has national level times in the mile and 5k for his age group. However, I have realized that if he truly wants to excel the drive and passion has to come from within himself. I no longer push him or remind him of things he needs to do. He needs to take ownership of his sport or it never is going to happen. I really hope that your daughter gets that rage to master
I have to girls 8 and 12 who play tennis at a pretty good level. They are very passionate about learning. I love this board because I have learned so much useful information and gained such great insight. I'm going to let there desire take their game whatever that may be.
Hang in there. That beast within may or may never awaken for tennis, I sure hope it does for her and my children, but if it doesn't the memories I make running with my son and teaching the girls tennis our priceless and wouldn't have wanted to miss that time for anything in this world.
I have to girls 8 and 12 who play tennis at a pretty good level. They are very passionate about learning. I love this board because I have learned so much useful information and gained such great insight. I'm going to let there desire take their game whatever that may be.
Hang in there. That beast within may or may never awaken for tennis, I sure hope it does for her and my children, but if it doesn't the memories I make running with my son and teaching the girls tennis our priceless and wouldn't have wanted to miss that time for anything in this world.
maggmaster
Hall of Fame
I had no drive as a junior, I had the rage for soccer. When I turned 26 I suddenly got obsessed with tennis. It can happen at any age.
The last 3 posts have been really good. In the end it needs to be owned by the kid. Help them become as good as they can get, but in the Kids own way. Each is different.
Gatennis, trust me from experience, you'll be just as proud watching your daughter play and important H.S. match or if she plays anywhere in college.
Focus on the journey, not the destination.
Gatennis, trust me from experience, you'll be just as proud watching your daughter play and important H.S. match or if she plays anywhere in college.
Focus on the journey, not the destination.
Remember, John McEnroe loved soccer more than tennis. Andy Roddick played on the high school basketball team. I believe playing multiple sports is good for the tennis player as well as for the kid. Yes, at some point they have to be desiring to hit millions of tennis balls, but it doesn't have to be today.
KevinB9986
New User
The info. on these posts probably true. But tennis is crazy. I remember hearing last week where they said that the quarterback of the Redskins hasn't really played that much football. You will never hear that quote about a professional tennis player. Never. I don't care if they are an elite athlete or not.
youth is wasted on the young... my talented daughter has no idea how to push herself with her training - meanwhile I have hit my ceiling due to the limitations that come with age
I guess the most important reward that any kid (except that 1/1,000,000 who goes pro) can get from tennis is to learn how to live: ie, be in the moment, relish adversity, and trust yourself
I guess the most important reward that any kid (except that 1/1,000,000 who goes pro) can get from tennis is to learn how to live: ie, be in the moment, relish adversity, and trust yourself
GA Tennis
My own situation is similar to yours - both my wife and I played college tennis and my wife was a NCAA champion in singles and doubles. Naturally
, we expected our daughter to shine and love tennis. Our daughter not only did not love tennis, she wanted to quit tennis all together In fact, she had real issues competing from age 10 to age 14 - as an example, she was losing matches in the So Cal satellites in the 10s and the 12s.After age 14, something unexpectedly kicked in and she started to practice better and started to compete better in matches. from age 14 to 18, she was ranked 5th in all of Asia 14U, ranked 200 in ITF 18U, played Fed Cup for 2011 and 2012 for her country and now is on a D1 full scholarship. Given you pedigree in tennis, I think your daughter will find her way in tennis and will shine in her own time. Hang in there!
GA Tennis
My own situation is similar to yours - both my wife and I played college tennis and my wife was a NCAA champion in singles and doubles. Naturally
After age 14, something unexpectedly kicked in and she started to practice better and started to compete better in matches. from age 14 to 18, she was ranked 5th in all of Asia 14U, ranked 200 in ITF 18U, played Fed Cup for 2011 and 2012 for her country and now is on a D1 full scholarship. Given you pedigree in tennis, I think your daughter will find her way in tennis and will shine in her own time. Hang in there!
WOW!!!! THANKS!!! THAT IS GOOD TO KNOW. YOUR POST GIVES ME HOPE!!
jackinbarcelona
New User
I only just now found this thread, I see it's a few years old, but I definitely would like to weigh in on this one.
With the greatest respect, I thoroughly disagree with your statement that U12 results matter, and that if you're not a top U12 you have no chance. There is just no evidence this is at all true.
The evidence shows that there IS some correlation between junior success and later pro success, but there is additionally a lot of evidence which points to the contrary. A couple famous examples:
- Sabine Lisicki wasn't even on the radar in U12, her BEST junior ranking in ITF was outside the top 100, and she was a Wimbledon finalist.
- Carina Witthoeft's best junior ITF ranking was 755, and she's top 100 WTA now
- Anastasia Sevastova's best junior ITF ranking was 523, she's currently ranked 20 on the WTA
- Garbine Muguruza was outside the top 300 on the ITF (similar with Tennis Europe U14, where she was 700 something) and obviously she's a multiple Slam winner!
- Angelique Kerber's all time best on the ITF juniors was 44, and she's a multiple slam winner and just won Wimby...
- At 12 Jo Konta wasn't even on the RADAR in Australia
- Cibulkova at 12 was barely competing (she started playing at aged 9!!!) though she later did rise to the top of the juniors on the ITF
Ok you might say, yes well it's different for Women, but Rafa's best ITF junior ranking was 145, and Djokovic was outside the top 30!
There are also tons of examples of players who are now top 100 or top 10 that were killing it as juniors as well...As someone once said to me, "for the top 100 ATP or WTA players, there are 100 different pathways of how they got there".
But to write someone off because they are not top of the world at 12 seems to me to be HIGHLY short sighted. There are a lot of things to measure at 12 to see if you have a budding potential champion on your hands, but pure wins is WAY down the list, because as every coach worth his salt knows...what it takes to win at 12 will get you nowhere later on.
