At what point do you stop counting the H2H between Federer and Nadal?

[Deleted member 733170]

Do you think Davydenko knows what a legend he is on the TTW website!?

 

[jg153040]

Do you think Davydenko knows what a legend he is on the TTW website!?

I guess, the last desperate saving straw of Nadal fans is claiming it wasn't in majors.

They also claim that Davy is not Rafa's main rival, which actually makes it even worse, to have such a loop sided negative h2h on the surface where 70% of tennis is played vs a lesser player.

I don't know how Nadal fans think that Rafa would be worse having negative h2h vs Federer who is actually HC goat, than vs Davy who is low tier player.

But I don't know why they have to go to such trouble to put Fed down. Why can't just try to find pro Rafa arguments, instead of anti Fed. It makes it look ridiculous.

I don't know why insecurity. They don't even cheer for Federer, so why do they care if he is goat or not? Doesn't make sense.

 

[Povl Carstensen]

Yeah for a couple of months because he is a great player. Don't act like at 31 he was playing crap, he wasn't.

But he hasn't had anywhere near the 11 majors in 4 years dominance since 2007.

Sure you can blame some of that on decline, but the main reason is because Nadal and Djokovic hit their peak and other players stepped up, such as Soderling at RG and Del Potro at US Open.

Still he went no 1, and he was even better/stronger in 04-07.

 

[Povl Carstensen]

Federer hasn't done anything to Nadal mate.

"Unlucky, unlucky, oh yes," uncle Toni said. "If there wasn't Federer, perhaps Rafael would have been No. 1 for four years. But with Federer, that was impossible."

 

[Deleted member 733170]

I guess, the last desperate saving straw of Nadal fans is claiming it wasn't in majors.

They also claim that Davy is not Rafa's main rival, which actually makes it even worse, to have such a loop sided negative h2h on the surface where 70% of tennis is played vs a lesser player.

I don't know how Nadal fans think that Rafa would be worse having negative h2h vs Federer who is actually HC goat, than vs Davy who is low tier player.

But I don't know why they have to go to such trouble to put Fed down. Why can't just try to find pro Rafa arguments, instead of anti Fed. It makes it look ridiculous.

I don't know why insecurity. They don't even cheer for Federer, so why do they care if he is goat or not? Doesn't make sense.

They backed the wrong horse. The fanatics do not enjoy the game but rather enjoy the sense that they are greater via living the fantasy of their hero (as though Nadal would be that gauche!).

Good on Rafa he got the better of Fed when it counted. What the fanatics can't accept is that Nadal will likely trail Federer in so many other areas, thus the fantastic lengths they go to diminish him.

I'm all for a bit of teasing and the GOAT herder joke is funny, but some of the people.. Aaah, the anger....

 

[jg153040]

They backed the wrong horse. The fanatics do not enjoy the game but rather enjoy the sense that they are greater via living the fantasy of their hero (as though Nadal would be that gauche!).

Good on Rafa he got the better of Fed when it counted. What the fanatics can't accept is that Nadal will likely trail Federer in so many other areas, thus the fantastic lengths they go to diminish him.

I'm all for a bit of teasing and the GOAT herder joke is funny, but some of the people.. Aaah, the anger....

I guess you have a point. But if they backed the wrong horse and are only in it for glory, why not just change horses? That is what I would do, if I wanted to live my live trough my heros and not caring about the game. So, it still doesn't make sense.

I guess it's mostly ignorance. They feel that if you put down a great player, that somehow that makes them as good as the player.

They are just mean. Even if we Fed fans are delusional and have fun with watching him, why do they want to ruin it? So what if we believe in Santa, leave us alone enjoying life and be happy and mind your own business .

 

[Deleted member 733170]

I guess you have a point. But if they backed the wrong horse and are only in it for glory, why not just change horses? That is what I would do, if I wanted to live my live trough my heros and not caring about the game. So, it still doesn't make sense.

I guess it's mostly ignorance. They feel that if you put down a great player, that somehow that makes them as good as the player.

They are just mean. Even if we Fed fans are delusional and have fun with watching him, why do they want to ruin it? So what if we believe in Santa, leave us alone enjoying life and be happy and mind your own business .

They can't change horses due to their anchoring bias. All that emotional energy invested in a concept.

Try and get a fanatic to change their mind, I challenge you!

 

[objectivity]

the important thing, is that Nadal gives the world hope. hope that the underprivileged, the untalented, the destitute, can, with sufficient hardwork and gumption, overcome nature's draw.

every victory against the most talented player in history, represents hope for humanity. that free-will WILL triumph and overcome.

 

[Deleted member 733170]

the important thing, is that Nadal gives the world hope. hope that the underprivileged, the untalented, the destitute, can, with sufficient hardwork and gumption, overcome nature's draw.

every victory against the most talented player in history, represents hope for humanity. that free-will WILL triumph and overcome.

look what the Spanish Bull dragged in!

you may have a point, but I always had you down more a fundamentalist than fanatic.

perhaps you have deserve moniker, 'enlightened fanatic'!

 

[jg153040]

They can't change horses due to their anchoring bias. All that emotional energy invested in a concept.

Try and get a fanatic to change their mind, I challenge you!

True. I guess you solved it. Too bad they can't experience the fulfillment we do. We see art and genius in Federer in every shot. It's not just about winning.

It's about his mindset too and genius shotmaking. Those who are just in it for glory, will never see this and it's a shame they can't experience the same fulfillment.

 

[Deleted member 733170]

the important thing, is that Nadal gives the world hope. hope that the underprivileged, the untalented, the destitute, can, with sufficient hardwork and gumption, overcome nature's draw.

every victory against the most talented player in history, represents hope for humanity. that free-will WILL triumph and overcome.

But seriously, does that explain the need to diminish Federer?

I'm all for the David and Goliath allegories, but that's not what's going on here's half the time.

 

[jg153040]

the important thing, is that Nadal gives the world hope. hope that the underprivileged, the untalented, the destitute, can, with sufficient hardwork and gumption, overcome nature's draw.

every victory against the most talented player in history, represents hope for humanity. that free-will WILL triumph and overcome.

Well, if the premise that Federer is more talented is even true. Maybe he just got lucky with the right coaches and environment.

Rafa has more talent in mental toughness and fitness. Rafa was a prodigy, Federer started winning late. And Rafa leading h2h.

I sometimes think that Fed gives us hope, that you can do a lot with hard work too, since he isn't that talented in mental and fitness department. Fed is a typical nerd. And he gives us hope, that nerds can dominate in sports too.

Just wondering if the myth that Rafa is less talented is even true. Maybe Rafa was unlucky to have his uncle train him like that. I wonder how they would do if we could change their environments.

 

[jg153040]

But seriously, does that explain the need to diminish Federer?

I'm all for the David and Goliath allegories, but that's not what's going on here's half the time.

Yeah. And what about all those times that Goliath won? A lot of times Goliath owns David and most people, and people never tell this story.

Besides, I always considered Federer as David. He wasn't talented in mental and fitness department. Was skinny shy boy, who went against those giants and he won by smarts, like David.

Rafa is more Goliath to me, when they play each other.

 

[SpinToWin]

Yeah. And what about all those times that Goliath won? A lot of times Goliath owns David and most people, and people never tell this story.

Besides, I always considered Federer as David. He wasn't talented in mental and fitness department. Was skinny shy boy, who went against those giants and he won by smarts, like David.

Rafa is more Goliath to me, when they play each other.

Come on, you know the fanatics, logic and details are irrelevant as long as they don't support their favourite player

 

[jg153040]

Come on, you know the fanatics, logic and details are irrelevant as long as they don't support their favourite player

They want reality to conform to their beliefs .

 

[Deleted member 688153]

You can argue that any numbers of dominant players are inflated. I mean according to your logic Rafa's numbers on clay are inflated too. Fed and Nole are basically Roddick and Hewitt on clay. It's not like Fed and Nole are some clay giants.

But, the reason they are weak is because Rafa stopped them from winning, the same as Federer stopped Roddick and Hewitt.

So, why don't you apply the same logic to Nadal on clay? Your double standards bother me. Or for that matter, why not applying the same logic to other dominant players? Nobody could challenge Laver when he won CYGS. That year the field won 0 slams, so they were weak according to your logic.

So, if you apply weak era to Roger, you have to apply the same for Nadal on clay. But, if you argue Fed and Nole are greater on clay than their numbers, cuz they have to play Rafa, you also need to say that Hewitt and Roddick are greater than their numbers, since they were playing best grass and HC player of all time, like Fed and Nole were playing best clay player.

It seems you are delusional having double standards for the guy you hate.

It doesn't work this way, you can't just use one logic for Federer and different logic for Nadal.

LOL The_Order is nowhere to be found after being exposed on his faulty logic. Poor guy, we should go easy on him. He is probably having a rough time coming to terms with some of this.

 

[jg153040]

LOL The_Order is nowhere to be found after being exposed on his faulty logic. Poor guy, we should go easy on him. He is probably having a rough time coming to terms with some of this.

I know I won't convince any of fanatics. But my goal isn't this. I bother because it will help some neutral fans who read this not to fall for this fake propaganda.

 

[objectivity]

Yeah. And what about all those times that Goliath won? A lot of times Goliath owns David and most people, and people never tell this story.

Besides, I always considered Federer as David. He wasn't talented in mental and fitness department. Was skinny shy boy, who went against those giants and he won by smarts, like David.

Rafa is more Goliath to me, when they play each other.

he won by smarts???!!

oh boy.

did you ever see how he overpowered lleyton hewitt for eg? and you dare come here and say he won by smarts?

in fact, lleyton said that he started packing on the muscles because federer (amongst others) was overpowering the tour and he had to keep up.

 

[Praetorian]

the important thing, is that Nadal gives the world hope. hope that the underprivileged, the untalented, the destitute, can, with sufficient hardwork and gumption, overcome nature's draw.

every victory against the most talented player in history, represents hope for humanity. that free-will WILL triumph and overcome.

Don't know about underprivileged or untalented.

 

[SpinToWin]

the important thing, is that Nadal gives the world hope. hope that the underprivileged, the untalented, the destitute, can, with sufficient hardwork and gumption, overcome nature's draw.

every victory against the most talented player in history, represents hope for humanity. that free-will WILL triumph and overcome.

Poor Nadal, how this poor child lacking in every possible area, inferior to any man out there managed to make it to the top of the sport is beyond me. I mean look at his complete lack of talent… *remembers a few of Nadal's hot shots…* Uhhhh… Or his lacking physicality by nature *looks at pictures of Nadal's body* I mean…. Look at his poor technique! *looks at incredible straight arm forehand, one of the best shots in the game* Uhmmmm…. Look at his matchup disadvantage against all players on tour since he is a lefty! *stops dreaming*

Are seriously believing this stuff? :lol:

 

[swizzy]

i hope they meet again soon...miss it

 

[HoyaPride]

No, what's horse **** is delusional Fed worshippers like yourself who think that beating Roddick, Hewitt and old Agassi in majors is equivalent to beating McEnroe, Borg, Djokovic, Nadal, Federer, Laver etc in majors.

Federer was better than Roddick, Hewitt and old Agassi and the field behind those guys from 04-07. That's it. When Nadal reached his peak, he beat Roger in his best slam. Roger on the other hand, was unable to do this to Rafa at RG despite having more attempts, he even failed to at least push Nadal to 5 sets. Nadal did that in 07 and then again in 08 splitting the victories.

So yeah, Fed's numbers are impressive, the most impressive of them all. But they're inflated, 11 of them came in only 4 years, what a surprise in that time there was no peak Nadal or Djokovic to deal with, only Roddick, Hewitt and old Agassi and they failed each and every time.

I think the real issue is that Fed's chief opposition during his "prime" was not all that consistent/healthy/focused. Putting aside the question of whether Safin, Hewitt, Henman, Nalbandian, Blake, Baghdaditis, Roddick, etc. were as talented as Nadal, Djoker, Murray and Co., it's clear that those guys weren't challenging Fed from tournament to tournament. Safin, who was definitely one of the most talented players from the Fed "prime era," only made it beyond the 4th Round twice between 2003 and 2007. Outside of Australia, he was a non-factor at all of the majors during that period.

Today, pretty much any major title you win is going to come through Nadal/Djokovic/Murray. Those guys are there challenging Federer and each other for titles week in, week out in a way that Hewitt, Blake, Roddick weren't...either because they weren't healthy enough (Hewitt), too much of a headcase (Safin) or simply not talented enough.

 

[thomasferrett]

When Nadal gets to infinity

 

[RF-18]

when nadal started to get favoured by the ATP with slow courts and clay like courts.

 

[objectivity]

Poor Nadal, how this poor child lacking in every possible area, inferior to any man out there managed to make it to the top of the sport is beyond me. I mean look at his complete lack of talent… *remembers a few of Nadal's hot shots…* Uhhhh… Or his lacking physicality by nature *looks at pictures of Nadal's body* I mean…. Look at his poor technique! *looks at incredible straight arm forehand, one of the best shots in the game* Uhmmmm…. Look at his matchup disadvantage against all players on tour since he is a lefty! *stops dreaming*

Are seriously believing this stuff? :lol:

nadal is definitely inferior to federer in terms of talent.
you are not convinced about that? ok, i am. federer is definitely way more talented than nadal, i am convinced. we can agree to disagree.

 

[The Dark Knight]

nadal is definitely inferior to federer in terms of talent.
you are not convinced about that? ok, i am. federer is definitely way more talented than nadal, i am convinced. we can agree to disagree.

That's subjective....Nadals strokes are unique... No one has ever hit the ball like Nadal.....it cannot even be taught.....

There's no "baby Nadals"..... But there is a baby fed.

 

[Kalin]

That's subjective....Nadals strokes are unique... No one has ever hit the ball like Nadal.....it cannot even be taught.....

There's no "baby Nadals"......

Baby Nadal on right: http://vanessarigsby.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/your-baby-on-steroids.jpg

 

[Deleted member 77403]

Poor Nadal, how this poor child lacking in every possible area, inferior to any man out there managed to make it to the top of the sport is beyond me. I mean look at his complete lack of talent… *remembers a few of Nadal's hot shots…* Uhhhh… Or his lacking physicality by nature *looks at pictures of Nadal's body* I mean…. Look at his poor technique! *looks at incredible straight arm forehand, one of the best shots in the game* Uhmmmm…. Look at his matchup disadvantage against all players on tour since he is a lefty! *stops dreaming*

Are seriously believing this stuff? :lol:

LOL! This thread has made me laugh.

 

[Algo]

RG 05
10char.

 

[Tennis_Hands]

the important thing, is that Nadal gives the world hope. hope that the underprivileged, the untalented, the destitute, can, with sufficient hardwork and gumption, overcome nature's draw.

every victory against the most talented player in history, represents hope for humanity. that free-will WILL triumph and overcome.

Poor underpriviliged Nadal, who constantly abuses the rules and the umpires let it slip.

And what to say about his total absence of luck - you know, the massive slow down of the surfaces.

Underpriviliged and unlucky.

 

[Tennisknowledge99]

Up until 2013, outside clay, Federer led Nadal 8-6 on hard and grass combined, Nadal won 4 matches in 2013 but last year was a disaster year for Federer. So if Federer was in his prime I think he will lead the h2h on hard and grass combined. Also Federer and Nadal never meet at the US Open

About clay court, Nadal is considered the best of all time, so I think Federer probably won't have any chance to win him in RG, even in Fed's prime

 

[kandamrgam]

You can argue that any numbers of dominant players are inflated. I mean according to your logic Rafa's numbers on clay are inflated too. Fed and Nole are basically Roddick and Hewitt on clay . It's not like Fed and Nole are some clay giants.

But, the reason they are weak is because Rafa stopped them from winning, the same as Federer stopped Roddick and Hewitt.

So, why don't you apply the same logic to Nadal on clay? Your double standards bother me. Or for that matter, why not applying the same logic to other dominant players? Nobody could challenge Laver when he won CYGS. That year the field won 0 slams, so they were weak according to your logic.

So, if you apply weak era to Roger, you have to apply the same for Nadal on clay. But, if you argue Fed and Nole are greater on clay than their numbers, cuz they have to play Rafa, you also need to say that Hewitt and Roddick are greater than their numbers, since they were playing best grass and HC player of all time, like Fed and Nole were playing best clay player.

It seems you are delusional having double standards for the guy you hate.

It doesn't work this way, you can't just use one logic for Federer and different logic for Nadal.

Thanks for the laugh.

Oh btw, Fed and Djoker has 80% winning record on the surface during their prime. I want to know how many real clay giants served better.

 

[kandamrgam]

I guess, the last desperate saving straw of Nadal fans is claiming it wasn't in majors.

They also claim that Davy is not Rafa's main rival, which actually makes it even worse, to have such a loop sided negative h2h on the surface where 70% of tennis is played vs a lesser player.

I don't know how Nadal fans think that Rafa would be worse having negative h2h vs Federer who is actually HC goat, than vs Davy who is low tier player.

But I don't know why they have to go to such trouble to put Fed down. Why can't just try to find pro Rafa arguments, instead of anti Fed. It makes it look ridiculous.

I don't know why insecurity. They don't even cheer for Federer, so why do they care if he is goat or not? Doesn't make sense.

Why is that desperate? How is a 0-0 record in Slams a valid h2h? Wasn't there a time when Murray lead the h2h and Federer fans argued about the Slam h2h?

 

[NatF]

Never stop counting it but it's significance diminishes the longer Federer plays past his prime. I also find it skewed by the frequency they met on slower surfaces.

 

[kandamrgam]

Up until 2013, outside clay, Federer led Nadal 8-6 on hard and grass combined, Nadal won 4 matches in 2013 but last year was a disaster year for Federer. So if Federer was in his prime I think he will lead the h2h on hard and grass combined. Also Federer and Nadal never meet at the US Open

About clay court, Nadal is considered the best of all time, so I think Federer probably won't have any chance to win him in RG, even in Fed's prime

1. Still think? I mean the case is solved no? The matches happened.

2. While I do believe the Federer-Nadal h2h is highly skewed and surface and age parity makes it more even, your analysis still heavily favours Nadal. Bring in clay too, Nadal will lead.

a. From 10 matches played outside clay from 04-10, Federer leads 6-4. Now bring clay. 5 matches on clay gives Nadal a 4-1 lead. That makes it 10-7 for Nadal! Mind you 3 of the 7 matches on HC were indoors, an environment that makes for less than 10% of the tour. And I haven't considered the age factor yet! Let's balance it.

b. From 2004-2012, the h2h outside clay is 8-6 in favour of Federer as you say. Now bring clay. If they played 7 times on clay it would look like 6 -1 in favour of Nadal. So effective h2h will be 9-12 in favour of Nadal. And again the indoor discrepancy is still there.

c. Now for the Majors , from 2007-2009, the most reasonable period, Federer and Nadal met twice on clay, twice on grass, once on hard. Nadal leads 4-1. That's some domination.

 

[Big_Dangerous]

Up until 2013, outside clay, Federer led Nadal 8-6 on hard and grass combined, Nadal won 4 matches in 2013 but last year was a disaster year for Federer. So if Federer was in his prime I think he will lead the h2h on hard and grass combined. Also Federer and Nadal never meet at the US Open

About clay court, Nadal is considered the best of all time, so I think Federer probably won't have any chance to win him in RG, even in Fed's prime

His best shot was 2009, but Soderling took Rafa out that year.

 

[The_Order]

Never stop counting it but it's significance diminishes the longer Federer plays past his prime. I also find it skewed by the frequency they met on slower surfaces.

Rubbish. Look how bad Federer struggled with Nadal at Wimbledon.

He lost in Dubai.

Indoors wasn't an advantage for Fed because the courts were particularly faster, it had more to do with the low bounce which would work to negate a lot of Nadal's topspin fh into the Federer bh.

There's only been 1 tournament where Federer has clearly been superior to Nadal in terms of h2h and that's the YEC/WTF.

Everywhere else, Federer has struggled. Everywhere.

 

[NatF]

Rubbish. Look how bad Federer struggled with Nadal at Wimbledon.

He lost in Dubai.

Indoors wasn't an advantage for Fed because the courts were particularly faster, it had more to do with the low bounce which would work to negate a lot of Nadal's topspin fh into the Federer bh.

There's only been 1 tournament where Federer has clearly been superior to Nadal in terms of h2h and that's the YEC/WTF.

Everywhere else, Federer has struggled. Everywhere.

The fact is the surfaces they've met on are skewed. Whether it would of helped Federer much or not is not the point I was making. But I think it's obvious that his chances for success against Nadal would be higher at Cincinnati rather than Monte Carlo for example.

 

[Deleted member 716271]

Poor underpriviliged Nadal, who constantly abuses the rules and the umpires let it slip.

And what to say about his total absence of luck - you know, the massive slow down of the surfaces.

Underpriviliged and unlucky.

So embarrassingly butthurt

 

[TMF]

Rubbish. Look how bad Federer struggled with Nadal at Wimbledon.

He lost in Dubai.

Indoors wasn't an advantage for Fed because the courts were particularly faster, it had more to do with the low bounce which would work to negate a lot of Nadal's topspin fh into the Federer bh.

There's only been 1 tournament where Federer has clearly been superior to Nadal in terms of h2h and that's the YEC/WTF.

Everywhere else, Federer has struggled. Everywhere.

Grass conditions in Wimbledon 2008 was completely difference and it suits for Nadal.

If they never tweaked the grass, Federer would have beaten him in 2008.


Federer lost in Dubai is like Nadal lost Zeballos on clay in his prime.

Prime Federer dominate Nadal at 2006 Wimbledon. Prime Federer would have dominate Nadal during 2004-2008 but Nadal was never there in the final.

 

[kandamrgam]

Grass conditions in Wimbledon 2008 was completely difference and it suits for Nadal.

If they never tweaked the grass, Federer would have beaten him in 2008.


Federer lost in Dubai is like Nadal lost Zeballos on clay in his prime.

Prime Federer dominate Nadal at 2006 Wimbledon. Prime Federer would have dominate Nadal during 2004-2008 but Nadal was never there in the final.

Ninja level tennis expertise spotted. You should join the JG guy. Makes a good pair.