ATG mental strength (poll)

Which Open Era ATG had the strongest will on court?

  • Total voters
    119
They all are. Talent without mental strength would be like Nick Kyrgios.

If I had to pick one, I'd go for Nadal. Not just for his on court intensity and competitiveness, but also for coming back strong no matter how many times injuries have derailed his momentums. I can't think of many who can keep coming back and play as passionately as he always has.
 
Backspin1183 said:
They all are. Talent without mental strength would be like Nick Kyrgios.

If I had to pick one, I'd go for Nadal. Not just for his on court intensity and competitiveness, but also for coming back strong no matter how many times injuries have derailed his momentums. I can't think of many who can keep coming back and play as passionately as he always has.
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I don't like that RAFA's clutchness drops significantly when he's not in top shape.

Don't think retirement because you've had enough (like Sampras, not Borg) is a negative here.
 
Backspin1183 said:
They never had the competition Nadal had in Federer and Djokovic.
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Like they are some mental goats. Nadal's mental failures against Djokovic just because the latter is an unfavourable match-up, even though Nadal is clearly clutcher on average so shouldn't be shaky H2H, are quite annoying. Why do they have to borrow this page from the Fedal book (in reverse obv)...
 
Connors - what did he do again?
Borg - quitter plus played bunch of clowns tight
Becker - never won a clay title despite MPs in finals. Granted not real a surface
PETE - rivals were mental midgets
RAFA - never faced proper clay courters so didn't have to show mental strength
 
AnOctorokForDinner said:
The knife wound.
It was a very unsettling incident, but a real mental titan would have come back roaring pumped full of righteous anger and properly destroyed Graf for benefitting from that travesty (not that she shouldn't have had).
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Yes, but who did that of the people in the poll?

It wasn't just a flash wound, it was an emotional wound. She was attacked at her work, that's a huge trauma, and she developed a psychological disorder.
 
skaj said:
Yes, but who did that of the people in the poll?

It wasn't just a flash wound, it was an emotional wound. She was attacked at her work, that's a huge trauma, and she developed a psychological disorder.
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It's a poll regarding men, default setting sorry. Among women the choice is Evert of course, every stat points to it.

Funny you think it makes sense to use emotional trauma as a shield in a mental strength thread. I realise she was still an adult kid so it sucked double, but they all were - top talents used to develop so early on the women's side.
 
Mental strentgh is hard to measure in isolation from a player's game. Success and confidence in one's game plan bring mental strength. For most of his career, when Nadal could play at a very high level and was fully confident that he could dominate his opponents if he applied correctly his forehand to backhand strategy, he seemed the most mentally strong player ever. Especially against Federer, he could come on top in tight matches.

Recently though, now that his speed has declined and he cannot apply as consistently his strategy, he appears a lot more vulnerable. Similarly against Djokovic whose backhand is not a liability, he isn't as strong mentally and lost tight sets/matches.
 
AnOctorokForDinner said:
It's a poll regarding men, default setting sorry. Among women the choice is Evert of course, every stat points to it.

Funny you think it makes sense to use emotional trauma as a shield in a mental strength thread. I realise she was still an adult kid so it sucked double, but they all were - top talents used to develop so early on the women's side.
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Evert for mental toughness is certainly not a bad choice, WTA or both WTA and ATP. It's just that there's a word will in the poll, so my first thought was Seles.

I did not use a shield of any kind for anything, I was just answering to your comment - it was not just a flash wound, but an emotional trauma as well.
 
Flash O'Groove said:
Mental strentgh is hard to measure in isolation from a player's game. Success and confidence in one's game plan bring mental strength. For most of his career, when Nadal could play at a very high level and was fully confident that he could dominate his opponents if he applied correctly his forehand to backhand strategy, he seemed the most mentally strong player ever. Especially against Federer, he could come on top in tight matches.

Recently though, now that his speed has declined and he cannot apply as consistently his strategy, he appears a lot more vulnerable. Similarly against Djokovic whose backhand is not a liability, he isn't as strong mentally and lost tight sets/matches.
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So much easier to stay strong when you know you'll win if you play your best. So much harder when you know you'll lose unless you play your best.
 
skaj said:
I did not use a shield of any kind for anything, I was just answering to your comment - it was not just a flash wound, but an emotional trauma as well.
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So will doesn't work on that sort of thing?

Not that I have a good idea of the (psychological and biological) workings of willpower.
 
Flash O'Groove said:
Precisely. That's how Nadal could be so confident against Federer, and Federer so confident against Roddick.
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To be fair, the biggest Fedal matches off clay were still on Federer's racquet... Nadal had to show his best *and* get Federer to tighten up, so it was actually tough. No way he "knew he was in control" in Dubai 06 or Wim 08; AO 09 moreso but still it was up to Federer. Actually when Nadal finally appeared in total control in the Wimby final, he started getting tight himself and so we've seen a five-setter.
 
Based on the poll, I'd pick Nadal. I've lost count of the number of 0-40 comebacks he has had on serve at big moments.
 
AnOctorokForDinner said:
So will doesn't work on that sort of thing?

Not that I have a good idea of the (psihological and biological) workings of willpower.
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If you mean does willpower work on recovering from emotional traumas, you don't have to be a psychologist to understand that it does. But also you don't have to be an expert of any kind to understand how complex human psychology is. I will continue with the case we are discussing. Seles developed depression after the unfortunate event, also an eating disorder. She became visibly unfit and couldn't play her game after she came back. The focus was there, the fitness was not. But the question is how motivated she was after her comeback. She was out for two years, experienced life without tennis, she changed her perspectives. The drive was still there of course, but there were other thing too now, she matured as a person. My point is there are many different factors.

There was also my question about the players from the poll, who are btw not immune to psychological disorders themselves(Nadal OCD, Connors impulse-control disorder...). We don't know how would they respond in this situation, and what factors would play the part there.
 
If you're talking the best big match players then the first two names that come to mind are Sampras and Nadal. If you're talking about the strongest will then the only name that comes to my mind is Djokovic, so pretty much a head scratcher that he is not in the poll. I can think of 3 times he has come back from match points down to make final of Slams, and won 1 after facing match point. He also went on the win Wim 2015 and AO 2013 after narrowly escaping tough opposition in the 4th rounds. His deciding set and 5 set record are in the top echelon in the Open Era, along with Borg, and he is the #1 pressure leader according to the ATP. Not to even mention the times he has won in situations when the whole crowd was against him.
 
NoleFam said:
If you're talking the best big match players then the first two names that come to mind are Sampras and Nadal. If you're talking about the strongest will then the only name that comes to my mind is Djokovic, so pretty much a head scratcher that he is not in the poll. I can think of 3 times he has come back from match points down to make final of Slams, and won 1 after facing match point. He also went on the win Wim 2015 and AO 2013 after narrowly escaping tough opposition in the 4th rounds. His deciding set and 5 set record are in the top echelon in the Open Era, along with Borg, and he is the #1 pressure leader according to the ATP. Not to even mention the times he has won in situations when the whole crowd was against him.
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What about the matches he's lost when he's been the favourite? I think for peak mentality he's right up there (maybe the best), across his career he's had a few headscratchers though - especially in that 2012-2014 span.
 
NatF said:
What about the matches he's lost when he's been the favourite? I think for peak mentality he's right up there (maybe the best), across his career he's had a few headscratchers though - especially in that 2012-2014 span.
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We don't talk about those years or 2009-2010 & 2016-2018 when he wasn't motivated enough.
 
NatF said:
What about the matches he's lost when he's been the favourite? I think for peak mentality he's right up there (maybe the best), across his career he's had a few headscratchers though - especially in that 2012-2014 span.
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That's relative to big match play where I think he falls short of Sampras and Nadal. The record in finals of Slams tells that story pretty clearly where they are better. As far as will on the court, I can't think of no one who is better than Novak. Maybe Connors would come in second but I have no idea after that.
 
NoleFam said:
That's relative to big match play where I think he falls short of Sampras and Nadal. The record in finals of Slams tells that story pretty clearly where they are better. As far as will on the court, I can't think of no one who is better than Novak. Maybe Connors would come in second but I have no idea after that.
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How do you distinguish between big match mentality and will to win?
 
Im(moral) Winner said:
We don't talk about those years or 2009-2010 & 2016-2018 when he wasn't motivated enough.
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I also don't think we are talking about 2015-2016 for Nadal or 2001 and most of 2002 for Sampras when we are discussing their peak mental strength.
 
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NoleFam said:
I also don't think we are talking about 2015-2016 for Nadal or 2001 and most of 2002 for Sampras when we are discussing these peak mental strength.
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Why is that? Nadir performance counts also, I didn't ask about peak specifically. Sampras wasn't particularly choking in 2002 btw, just sucked on return so had to play TBs all the time and you can't win much that way. The way he lifted himself up for one last slam was very impressive.
 
NatF said:
How do you distinguish between big match mentality and will to win?
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Will to win to me is something else entirely. I think Djokovic has will, and Sampras and Nadal have that intense focus to seal the deal in big matches. Will to win has to do with coming back from 2 sets to love down, match points down, 2 sets to 1 down, winning in the 5th set, feeding off the negative energy of the crowd, etc. That's where Djokovic is different to me. Nadal and Sampras are different in that when they make a Slam final, they are going to play at their highest level on that day and most likely win. That's something that Djokovic doesn't do as well.
 
Sampras dominating a relatively weak ATG (only 8 GS) like Agassi is somehow less kmoressive than dominating a strong ATG like Federer (20 GS).

Plus, 7/7 in Wimbledon finals (only one of them facing an all-time great like Agassi) is not better than 11/11 in RG finals (6 of them facing an all-time great like Federer or Djokovic).
 
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AnOctorokForDinner said:
Why is that? Nadir performance counts also, I didn't ask about peak specifically. Sampras wasn't particularly choking in 2002 btw, just sucked on return so had to play TBs all the time and you can't win much that way. The way he lifted himself up for one last slam was very impressive.
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Well I am not talking about those years when I am discussing Nadal and Sampras highest levels of mental strength. Nadal had some epic chokes in those years by the way and Sampras just completely sucked in 2002 overall, minus the USO.
 
AnOctorokForDinner said:
Why is that? Nadir performance counts also, I didn't ask about peak specifically. Sampras wasn't particularly choking in 2002 btw, just sucked on return so had to play TBs all the time and you can't win much that way. The way he lifted himself up for one last slam was very impressive.
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Pete's Peak and Nadal's Nadir?
 
NoleFam said:
Well I am not talking about those years when I am discussing Nadal and Sampras highest levels of mental strength. Nadal had some epic chokes in those years by the way and Sampras just completely sucked in 2002 overall, minus the USO.
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So there is a difference between choking and simply playing bad. E.g. I wouldn't be talking about Nadal's 2015 losses to Berdych AO and Djokovic RG as examples of weakened mentality, but the Raonic loss from MP up, losing that Rome TB to Wawrinka from 6-2 up, wasting a two set lead to Fognini.
 
Sport said:
As always, Nadal loses every hypothetical scenario in TTW.

Sampras dominating a relatively weak ATG (only 8 GS) like Agassi is somehow better than dominating a strong ATG like Federer (20 GS).

Plus, now we learn that 7/7 in Wimbledon finals (only one of them facing an all-time great like Agassi) is better than 11/11 in RG finals (6 of them facing an all-time great like Federer or Djokovic).
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What are you on about when RAFA has more votes than the others combined
 
Hey guys. If this type of stuff is interesting there's a ted talk by Toni Nadal, really awesome (subtitles provided too)

 
AnOctorokForDinner said:
So there is a difference between choking and simply playing bad. E.g. I wouldn't be talking about Nadal's 2015 losses to Berdych AO and Djokovic RG as examples of weakened mentality, but the Raonic loss from MP up, losing that Rome TB to Wawrinka from 6-2 up, wasting a two set lead to Fognini.
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Sampras played bad in 2002 and Nadal choked in 2015/2016. I am not talking about those Nadal losses to Djokovic and Berdych. I am talking about his losses to Fognini, Pouille and Verdasco in matches in Slams that he should have won. That doesn't display Nadal at peak mental strength to me.
 
RaulRamirez said:
Pete's Peak and Nadal's Nadir?
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Pete's mentality was suspect when he was young - some nice losses in 1991-92 - he transformed before 1993 Wimbledon and grew into a beast. Nadal was at his clutchest in his youth when he was winning all five-setters (except one c:) and many BO3 close matches, but he became less beastly after Madrid 09.
 
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