ATG or GOAT with no wins on carpet?

tonylg

Hall of Fame
Sampras, Lendl, Becker, McEnroe, Connors, Laver, Pancho .. can all be considered all time greats, with Laver being the GOAT.

It is difficult to see how you can class anyone without a single win on carpet as an ATG, let alone a GOAT contender.

Yes, it's not their fault that in the search for surface homogenisation that carpet has disappeared, but equally they can't be compared to those with success on that surface .. just slow court era vultures.
 

Tennis_Hands

Bionic Poster
One cannot hold it against a player that he didn't have the chance to prove himself in different conditions, but one can certainly can hold it against a player that has shown weakness in conditions similar to those that are no more, or has shown weakness in existing in his career conditions.

It is all relative, and the debates should be sensible and knowledgeable. People that have no clue what "carpet" is or how the players you mention played cannot really participate in such a debate in any meaningful way.

 
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tonylg

Hall of Fame
With that logic, Marc Rosset (7 carpet titles, best rank #9) is more GOAT like than Roger Federer (2 carpet titles, best rank #1 for many years)
I didn't suggest carpet was the sole determiner of GOATness .. and Federer has won at least 4 titles on carpet (Basel and Thailand both twice).
 
Borg won 23 official indoor titles, including the year end Masters tourneys played in NY during Jan. 80 and Jan. 81. In that era going 5-0 vs. Lendl, McEnroe and Connors. Those tournaments held much more sway than the Australian Open in the 70’s-early 80’s. I do think being able to play well indoors adds to a player’s track record, but it’s tough to fault players if they don’t have the opportunity to play much on carpet anymore. Although, indoor tennis remains a robust part of the surface mix.
 

JaoSousa

Semi-Pro
Sampras, Lendl, Becker, McEnroe, Connors, Laver, Pancho .. can all be considered all time greats, with Laver being the GOAT.

It is difficult to see how you can class anyone without a single win on carpet as an ATG, let alone a GOAT contender.

Yes, it's not their fault that in the search for surface homogenisation that carpet has disappeared, but equally they can't be compared to those with success on that surface .. just slow court era vultures.
 

tonylg

Hall of Fame
Borg won 23 official indoor titles, including the year end Masters tourneys played in NY during Jan. 80 and Jan. 81. In that era going 5-0 vs. Lendl, McEnroe and Connors. Those tournaments held much more sway than the Australian Open in the 70’s-early 80’s. I do think being able to play well indoors adds to a player’s track record, but it’s tough to fault players if they don’t have the opportunity to play much on carpet anymore. Although, indoor tennis remains a robust part of the surface mix.
Yes, of course Borg had success everywhere .. except outdoors at night under lights.

But this thread is about current players and the fact that their careers are missing success on a fast surface like carpet.
 
Yes, of course Borg had success everywhere .. except outdoors at night under lights.

But this thread is about current players and the fact that their careers are missing success on a fast surface like carpet.
They just don’t have much carpet anymore, although there are some big indoor tournaments. I do think being able to play great indoors adds to a player’s versatility and is important.
 

Whisper

Rookie
It is difficult to see how you can class anyone without a single win on carpet as an ATG, let alone a GOAT contender.

Difficult? Easiest thing in the world, given there are no slams held on carpet.

So you're seriously suggesting Rafa with 12 FO, 4 USO, 19 slams, 5 yr-end No.1, 11 yr span between No.1 rankings, career slam, Wim/USO/FO champ in same yr (Fed & Djoker never did this) can't be a goat factor until he wins insignificant tournaments on carpet?

Lendl said he'd swap every title he ever won for 1 Wimbledon. He also said everybody thinks the difference between 6 & 8 slams is a big deal, but no one cares if you won 100 or 50 non-slam titles. he's right. Carpet titles fall into the insignificant category.
 

Sport

G.O.A.T.
Difficult? Easiest thing in the world, given there are no slams held on carpet.

So you're seriously suggesting Rafa with 12 FO, 4 USO, 19 slams, 5 yr-end No.1, 11 yr span between No.1 rankings, career slam, Wim/USO/FO champ in same yr (Fed & Djoker never did this) can't be a goat factor until he wins insignificant tournaments on carpet?

Lendl said he'd swap every title he ever won for 1 Wimbledon. He also said everybody thinks the difference between 6 & 8 slams is a big deal, but no one cares if you won 100 or 50 non-slam titles. he's right. Carpet titles fall into the insignificant category.
I agree with this logico-methodological analysis.
 

tonylg

Hall of Fame
Difficult? Easiest thing in the world, given there are no slams held on carpet.

So you're seriously suggesting Rafa with 12 FO, 4 USO, 19 slams, 5 yr-end No.1, 11 yr span between No.1 rankings, career slam, Wim/USO/FO champ in same yr (Fed & Djoker never did this) can't be a goat factor until he wins insignificant tournaments on carpet?

Lendl said he'd swap every title he ever won for 1 Wimbledon. He also said everybody thinks the difference between 6 & 8 slams is a big deal, but no one cares if you won 100 or 50 non-slam titles. he's right. Carpet titles fall into the insignificant category.
I'm saying anyone whose slams titles are post 2001 is unproven on fast surfaces.
 

NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
You might as well say you cannot be an ATG if you have no wins on wood either, which was a surface from the late 1800s until it was abolished in the 1970s. Players play on the conditions of their time and I find arguments like this ironic considering the player they support was one of the main supporters of the removal of carpet.
 

thrust

Hall of Fame
Difficult? Easiest thing in the world, given there are no slams held on carpet.

So you're seriously suggesting Rafa with 12 FO, 4 USO, 19 slams, 5 yr-end No.1, 11 yr span between No.1 rankings, career slam, Wim/USO/FO champ in same yr (Fed & Djoker never did this) can't be a goat factor until he wins insignificant tournaments on carpet?

Lendl said he'd swap every title he ever won for 1 Wimbledon. He also said everybody thinks the difference between 6 & 8 slams is a big deal, but no one cares if you won 100 or 50 non-slam titles. he's right. Carpet titles fall into the insignificant category.
Does that include Lendl's non Wimbledon slams? I doubt that. The fact that Nadal has never won a title on carpet means nothing, primarily because there never were any slams played on carpet.
 

tonylg

Hall of Fame
This is all three of them. Nadal, Djokovic and Federer. With the exception of a few small tournaments, none of them have won anything on a fast court.
 

RelentlessAttack

Professional
I love playing on carpet. Can play super aggressively but also takes well to slices, drop shots, touch volleys. They should bring it back for sure
 

zipplock

Semi-Pro
When are they going to bring back indoor wood courts? Talk about low bounce lightning!!!!! Makes carpet look slow.
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
Of the Big 4, only Federer and Murray have won titles on carpet.

Does that mean we should only be talking about a Big 2? ;)
 

RelentlessAttack

Professional
Who are they? It’s not ATP pro players, they don’t want it.
it would help the careers of many lower players over the years that were more suited to fast surfaces, eg posipisil. Hegemony of slow court specialists at top of ATP ranks and across all surfaces creates a self fulfilling loop where only their voices are heard. ultimately “they” are the ATP executives who can decide what kind of product they want and players will go along with it.
 

TheGhostOfAgassi

Talk Tennis Guru
I recall Tsonga being very vocal about it, but you really only hear what the big 3 have to say.
Thats one player.
Of the big 3 Ive heard Federer has been vocal against it. It’s not a topic bringing carpet back, it’s hardly mentioned. Think I’ve heard if maybe twice of 15 years in pro tennis.
 

tonylg

Hall of Fame
Thats one player.
Of the big 3 Ive heard Federer has been vocal against it. It’s not a topic bringing carpet back, it’s hardly mentioned. Think I’ve heard if maybe twice of 15 years in pro tennis.
“We’re in a situation that if we don’t take this seriously, we might be in a position in two or three years time when we’ll have extremely boring tennis with guys just standing on the baseline. If that happens I think tennis will die quite a lot” ~ Jonas Bjorkman

Federer doesn't like carpet. But he doesn't like clay either. Does that mean there should be no tournaments on clay?

Tsonga, Mahut, Llodra, Lopez have all spoken about this. Of course you'll retort, but that's only 4.

Anyway, the thread wasn't "Bring back carpet", it's just highlighting that the big 3 are unproven on anything faster than molasses. That's not an opinion, it's a fact.
 

TheGhostOfAgassi

Talk Tennis Guru
“We’re in a situation that if we don’t take this seriously, we might be in a position in two or three years time when we’ll have extremely boring tennis with guys just standing on the baseline. If that happens I think tennis will die quite a lot” ~ Jonas Bjorkman

Federer doesn't like carpet. But he doesn't like clay either. Does that mean there should be no tournaments on clay?

Tsonga, Mahut, Llodra, Lopez have all spoken about this. Of course you'll retort, but that's only 4.

Anyway, the thread wasn't "Bring back carpet", it's just highlighting that the big 3 are unproven on anything faster than molasses. That's not an opinion, it's a fact.
But pro tennis players don’t want carpet back! How difficult is that to understand?
Its way too injury prone and dangerous. They fall on it and the injuries severe. The tour consist of a lot of players in the decade and less than a handful of players like carpet.

Federer doesn’t like clay at all? Lol
You cannot be serious. Federer is an excellent clay player and he hates carpet.

go on being depressed about the status of the speed, or move on and enjoy tennis today!!
Happy new year!
 

Incognito

Legend
“We’re in a situation that if we don’t take this seriously, we might be in a position in two or three years time when we’ll have extremely boring tennis with guys just standing on the baseline. If that happens I think tennis will die quite a lot” ~ Jonas Bjorkman

Federer doesn't like carpet. But he doesn't like clay either. Does that mean there should be no tournaments on clay?

Tsonga, Mahut, Llodra, Lopez have all spoken about this. Of course you'll retort, but that's only 4.

Anyway, the thread wasn't "Bring back carpet", it's just highlighting that the big 3 are unproven on anything faster than molasses. That's not an opinion, it's a fact.
when did Federer say he didn’t like clay? He grew up on it.
 

tonylg

Hall of Fame
But pro tennis players don’t want carpet back! How difficult is that to understand?
Its way too injury prone and dangerous. They fall on it and the injuries severe. The tour consist of a lot of players in the decade and less than a handful of players like carpet.

Federer doesn’t like clay at all? Lol
You cannot be serious. Federer is an excellent clay player and he hates carpet.

go on being depressed about the status of the speed, or move on and enjoy tennis today!!
Happy new year!
You may move along also. Or you may continue to follow me around the forum like a love sick puppy. Up to you.
 

mikej

Hall of Fame
Sampras, Lendl, Becker, McEnroe, Connors, Laver, Pancho .. can all be considered all time greats, with Laver being the GOAT.

It is difficult to see how you can class anyone without a single win on carpet as an ATG, let alone a GOAT contender.

Yes, it's not their fault that in the search for surface homogenisation that carpet has disappeared, but equally they can't be compared to those with success on that surface .. just slow court era vultures.
The first word of your post disqualified you from a logical discussion

Arguing that there shouldn’t be holes in your resume on certain surfaces to be an all-time great, then starting your post talking about Sampras

Remind me when he completed the career GS, proving himself to be a master of the red clay?

Carpet, lol
 

tonylg

Hall of Fame
The first word of your post disqualified you from a logical discussion

Arguing that there shouldn’t be holes in your resume on certain surfaces to be an all-time great, then starting your post talking about Sampras

Remind me when he completed the career GS, proving himself to be a master of the red clay?

Carpet, lol
He wasn't. Definite hole in his career.
 

Service Ace

Hall of Fame
Carpet is the reason I think it's a joke when Ned fans bring up hE's ThE oNlY oNe To WiN mUlTiPlE sLaMs On EvErY sUrFaCe!!1!

Dumbest argument for his GOAThood ever.
 

TheGhostOfAgassi

Talk Tennis Guru
You may move along also. Or you may continue to follow me around the forum like a love sick puppy. Up to you.
Following you around? Are you mad or full of yourself? I didn’t really notice you as a poster before this Christmas. Probably because you are complaining 24/7 and bring on negative vibes most of the time, I’ve ignored you before. But now, since a lot of the others similar to you don’t post much anyone, you are more visible.

It is always some that thinks that some things in older days were better, maybe in some ways they were. But these days have other things that are better than before. I’ve watched tennis since it was faster courts as well, but I like this more. I also know why they made grass for example faster, the business behind it and I understand it. Not only from profit side of things, but also because I think tennis more fun to watch this way. I’m European, I grew up on clay, just like the big 3. It is a part of my culture and upbringing.

Again, happy new year and I hope you enjoy the tennis too!
 

tonylg

Hall of Fame
Yet you said he’s an ATG. Consistency of logic is difficult for some people.
I'll type this slowly, so you can keep up. Sampras is an all time great, but I agree he had a weakness on slow courts. No inconsistency, particularly given ATG is an opinion, the weakness is a fact.
 
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