ATP Next Gen Finals, 11/28-12/2

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buscemi

Legend
The field is set for the ATP Next Gen Finals:

Arthur Fils: 19.4 years old. Started the year at #252. Finished it at #36. Won Lyon on clay. Recently made the European Open final in Belgium, losing to Bublik. Great forehand. Good serve. Solid backhand. Nice movement and size. The Frenchman seems primed for a breakout year in 2024.​
​
Luca Van Assche: 19.5 years old. Started the year at #139. Currently #70. Won back-to-back Challengers on hard/clay in the spring but maybe hasn't progressed as much as he would have hoped since then, allowing his French countryman Fils to surpass him in the rankings. Some have called him Gilles Simon 2.0, but with a bit more aggressive game.​
​
Dominic Stricker: 21.2 years old. Started the year at #119. Currently #92. Won Challengers on hard/clay in the spring but hasn't done much since. Stricker seems like a solid all-court leftie who's comfortable on all surfaces. The question is whether he can put all the pieces together like a couple of other Swiss late bloomers.​
​
Alex Michelsen: 19.2 years old. Started the year at #600. Currently #96. Made the Newport final and recently won his second Challenger of the year. Killer backhand and very good net game. Forehand is inconsistent but developing. You'd like to see a bigger serve for someone who is 6'4". I can see him being a major threat next year if he could pump up that serve in the offseason.​
​
Flavio Cobolli: 21.5 years old. Started the year at #171. Currently #99. Solid two handed backhand. Hits his forehand with an extreme Western grip that might be better suited for slower courts, but he did win a hard court Challenger this year. The Italian is probably best known for putting up a decent fight against Alcaraz in the third set of their French Open match this year. At 5'8", he may have difficulty rising in the rankings.​
​
Hamad Medjedović: 20.3 years old. Started the year at #255. Currently #108. Has won three Challengers this year, two on clay, one on hard. Coached by his Serbian countryman Victor Troicki. Big serve. Big forehand. Solid net game. Backhand is good, but can use improvement. Fitness seems to be a question to address in the offseason.​
​
Luca Nardi: 20.2 years old. Started the year at #135. Currently #119. Has won two Challengers this year but has otherwise been inconsistent, hence the minimal rankings rise. All I really know about the Italian is that he has a great two handed backhand. Maybe others know more.​
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Abdullah Shelbayh: 20 years old. Started the year at #473. Currently #184. Got a wild card to the tournament. The Jordanian leftie played college ball at Florida for a year and recently won his first Challenger. I don't know too much about his game.​

Overall, regardless of the results of this event, I'm looking at Fils and Michelsen having the best careers out of the bunch.
 
Question: are players who qualify for the Tour Finals automatically ineligible for the Next Gen finals? The Wikipedia page makes it seem so because it has a box marked "Player qualified for the ATP Finals" - but I'm not 100% sure whether that means "and hence was withdrawn from the field for the Next Gen finals" or means "and hence withdrew from the field for the Next Gen finals."
 
helterskelter said:
Question: are players who qualify for the Tour Finals automatically ineligible for the Next Gen finals? The Wikipedia page makes it seem so because it has a box marked "Player qualified for the ATP Finals" - but I'm not 100% sure whether that means "and hence was withdrawn from the field for the Next Gen finals" or means "and hence withdrew from the field for the Next Gen finals."
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According to the ATP Rulebook:

The top seven (7) players in the selection list shall qualify for the event as direct acceptances. Participation is mandatory, and all qualified players shall be entered. The exception to this is that any player(s) who are qualified for the Nitto ATP Finals as a Direct Acceptance or as a designated Alternate are excluded from mandatory participation. All direct acceptances​
must be at the tournament site to attend the official pre-tournament media events scheduled Sunday night and Monday and must be available forplay through the completion of the round robin competition and the knock-out competition if eligible.​
 
buscemi said:
According to the ATP Rulebook:

The top seven (7) players in the selection list shall qualify for the event as direct acceptances. Participation is mandatory, and all qualified players shall be entered. The exception to this is that any player(s) who are qualified for the Nitto ATP Finals as a Direct Acceptance or as a designated Alternate are excluded from mandatory participation. All direct acceptances​
must be at the tournament site to attend the official pre-tournament media events scheduled Sunday night and Monday and must be available forplay through the completion of the round robin competition and the knock-out competition if eligible.​
Click to expand...

Still not completely clear to me. Does being “excluded from mandatory participation” mean “excluded from participation” or “ participation is optional”? I assume the former but the wording is sloppy.
 
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buscemi said:
The field is set for the ATP Next Gen Finals:

Arthur Fils: 19.4 years old. Started the year at #252. Finished it at #36. Won Lyon on clay. Recently made the European Open final in Belgium, losing to Bublik. Great forehand. Good serve. Solid backhand. Nice movement and size. The Frenchman seems primed for a breakout year in 2024.​
​
Luca Van Assche: 19.5 years old. Started the year at #139. Currently #70. Won back-to-back Challengers on hard/clay in the spring but maybe hasn't progressed as much as he would have hoped since then, allowing his French countryman Fils to surpass him in the rankings. Some have called him Gilles Simon 2.0, but with a bit more aggressive game.​
​
Dominic Stricker: 21.2 years old. Started the year at #119. Currently #92. Won Challengers on hard/clay in the spring but hasn't done much since. Stricker seems like a solid all-court leftie who's comfortable on all surfaces. The question is whether he can put all the pieces together like a couple of other Swiss late bloomers.​
​
Alex Michelsen: 19.2 years old. Started the year at #600. Currently #96. Made the Newport final and recently won his second Challenger of the year. Killer backhand and very good net game. Forehand is inconsistent but developing. You'd like to see a bigger serve for someone who is 6'4". I can see him being a major threat next year if he could pump up that serve in the offseason.​
​
Flavio Cobolli: 21.5 years old. Started the year at #171. Currently #99. Solid two handed backhand. Hits his forehand with an extreme Western grip that might be better suited for slower courts, but he did win a hard court Challenger this year. The Italian is probably best known for putting up a decent fight against Alcaraz in the third set of their French Open match this year. At 5'8", he may have difficulty rising in the rankings.​
​
Hamad Medjedović: 20.3 years old. Started the year at #255. Currently #108. Has won three Challengers this year, two on clay, one on hard. Coached by his Serbian countryman Victor Troicki. Big serve. Big forehand. Solid net game. Backhand is good, but can use improvement. Fitness seems to be a question to address in the offseason.​
​
Luca Nardi: 20.2 years old. Started the year at #135. Currently #119. Has won two Challengers this year but has otherwise been inconsistent, hence the minimal rankings rise. All I really know about the Italian is that he has a great two handed backhand. Maybe others know more.​
​
Abdullah Shelbayh: 20 years old. Started the year at #473. Currently #184. Got a wild card to the tournament. The Jordanian leftie played college ball at Florida for a year and recently won his first Challenger. I don't know too much about his game.​

Overall, regardless of the results of this event, I'm looking at Fils and Michelsen having the best careers out of the bunch.
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First question: Why isn't Matteo Arnaldi in the field? Too old? Wiki says he is 22.

Second question: How much money did Jordan throw around to get that kid the WC spot?
 
The groups have been set, and play starts today. Pretty unbalanced groups with 1/3/5/7 in the Green Group and 2/4/6/8 in the Red Group:

Green Group: Fils(#1)/Stricker(#3)/Cobolli(#5)/Nardi (#7)​
Red Group: Van Assche(#2)/Michelsen(#4)/Medjedovic(#6)/Shelbayh(#8)​
 
Baseline_Bungle said:
There's a crowd? Tuned in during this second match and there is LITERALLY no one there. Not bad for the Saudis' ATP debut... All that dirty money, and they couldn't buy a few thousand fake fans as well? What a damn shame.
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The lighting around the court is minimal to hide the very few attendees. Atmosphere of a deserted monastry ....
God forbid they would do this to the ATP Finals!
https://x.com/Stroppa_Del/status/1729466065153933480?s=20
 
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Cobolli wins, didn't catch that. Like how Van Assche plays. Maybe the most interesting for me might be Michelsen. He likes to push from the baseline but has size and still a serve and a forehand to develop.
 
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robyrolfo said:
How so? Serious question, as I haven't seen any of it yet. Curious as to what happened.
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I don't know if it's a poor mic'ing situation but just incessant talking, laughing, yelling, screaming during play. Doesn't seem like anyone is paying attention. That or it's so empty that the few attendees that are there are dominating the sound space. Also lots of movement during play, Lahyani had to stop play for like 5 minutes just to get people to sit down. Too bad for the event, definitely a money bag situation.
 
robyrolfo said:
How so? Serious question, as I haven't seen any of it yet. Curious as to what happened.
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I think they wheeled out a few bus loads of school children just to pretend there was somebody there. Obviously these kids had no idea where they were or what tennis is, so they were being noisy. Once they left, however, things got even sadder. I wonder if someone will ever grow a pair and say no, we won't let these MFs ruin tennis as well.
 
Benf15harp said:
I mean…. Yawn!
future of tennis looks bright!
Just kidding!
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I actually thought the Fils/Nardi match was decent. There's some good play here, I wouldn't brush these kids off so easily
Baseline_Bungle said:
I think they wheeled out a few bus loads of school children just to pretend there was somebody there. Obviously these kids had no idea where they were or what tennis is, so they were being noisy. Once they left, however, things got even sadder. I wonder if someone will ever grow a pair and say no, we won't let these MFs ruin tennis as well.
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Ah, gotcha, that makes sense — glad them kids got to watch some tennis!
 
@Znak and @Baseline_Bungle Ok, I see what you mean now. I just watched a little of the Fils v Nardi match replay, and indeed it sounded like they were playing in a school cafeteria during lunchtime. Certainly sounded like kids.

Anyway, it is indeed a shame that they do these things for the money. As someone said elsewhere, pick any decent sized European city and you are almost certain to have better atmosphere and a better turnout.
 
Michelsen is built like a professional videogame player.

Mounted a nice comeback, then managed to lose just when the other guy could no longer move.

Well at least the Muslim player won in front of the delirious Saudi crowd. Amazing fairytale ending for those seven spectators in attendance.
 
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Baseline_Bungle said:
Michelsen is built like a professional videogame player.

Mounted a nice comeback, then managed to lose just when the other guy could no longer move.

Well at least the Muslim player won in front of the delirious Saudi crowd. Amazing fairytale ending for those seven spectators in attendance.
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Are interested in religion, philosophy and peace?
 
helterskelter said:
Still not completely clear to me. Does being “excluded from mandatory participation” mean “excluded from participation” or “ participation is optional”? I assume the former but the wording is sloppy.
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I always thought they'd be allowed to participate if they so chose.

Do we know why Shelton isn't there?
 
mightyjeditribble said:
I always thought they'd be allowed to participate if they so chose.

Do we know why Shelton isn't there?
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No. I just know that he and Musetti withdrew.

I have a feeling that players are not allowed to play both events, but I could be wrong. The only evidence that I have is from Wikipedia, which isn't completely reliable. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Next_Generation_ATP_Finals#Race_to_qualification. Shelton and Musetti are listed as having withdrawn, and Alcaraz and Rune are listed as "qualified for the ATP Finals," as though they did not also withdraw from the Next Gen finals. But that could be sloppy editing.

I suppose that, if you are right, there will eventually be a player who chooses to play both events. So, the longer that it goes without someone playing both, the more reason we have to believe that players are not permitted to do so.
 
helterskelter said:
No. I just know that he and Musetti withdrew.

I have a feeling that players are not allowed to play both events, but I could be wrong. The only evidence that I have is from Wikipedia, which isn't completely reliable. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Next_Generation_ATP_Finals#Race_to_qualification. Shelton and Musetti are listed as having withdrawn, and Alcaraz and Rune are listed as "qualified for the ATP Finals," as though they did not also withdraw from the Next Gen finals. But that could be sloppy editing.

I suppose that, if you are right, there will eventually be a player who chooses to play both events. So, the longer that it goes without someone playing both, the more reason we have to believe that players are not permitted to do so.
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Well, I don't know. A player who has qualified for the ATP Tour Finals has very little to gain by entering the NextGen finals. Imagine Alcaraz entering. He will be expected to win, and if somehow he doesn't, then this will not look great for him. But if he does win, what does he gain? Money, sure, but at the very top I suspect that is not a main motivator for them anymore. And if he needed the money, he could probably pay some lucrative exhibition where he doesn't have to win to collect his fee. At the end of the season, playing an extra event without ranking points consequences would be a strange decision.

It is a bit of a strange event. It was brought in at a time when, for a very long time, the young players weren't breaking through against the old ones. Then in the first year that they held it, 2017, Zverev broke through and made the ATP finals.

The goal of the event is to highlight up and coming players, who may not be breaking through against the elite of the sport, but are in the top bracket of their peers, age-wise, so may be the stars of tomorrow. There is really very little point for someone who is already a global star on the main tour to participate.
 
mightyjeditribble said:
Well, I don't know. A player who has qualified for the ATP Tour Finals has very little to gain by entering the NextGen finals. Imagine Alcaraz entering. He will be expected to win, and if somehow he doesn't, then this will not look great for him. But if he does win, what does he gain? Money, sure, but at the very top I suspect that is not a main motivator for them anymore. And if he needed the money, he could probably pay some lucrative exhibition where he doesn't have to win to collect his fee. At the end of the season, playing an extra event without ranking points consequences would be a strange decision.

It is a bit of a strange event. It was brought in at a time when, for a very long time, the young players weren't breaking through against the old ones. Then in the first year that they held it, 2017, Zverev broke through and made the ATP finals.

The goal of the event is to highlight up and coming players, who may not be breaking through against the elite of the sport, but are in the top bracket of their peers, age-wise, so may be the stars of tomorrow. There is really very little point for someone who is already a global star on the main tour to participate.
Click to expand...

Very few players will play both, I agree. But if they can, eventually one will. The range of human motivation is much wider than a rationalist reading permits. Some people are completists and might play the event for completist reasons.
 
mightyjeditribble said:
Well, I don't know. A player who has qualified for the ATP Tour Finals has very little to gain by entering the NextGen finals. Imagine Alcaraz entering. He will be expected to win, and if somehow he doesn't, then this will not look great for him. But if he does win, what does he gain? Money, sure, but at the very top I suspect that is not a main motivator for them anymore. And if he needed the money, he could probably pay some lucrative exhibition where he doesn't have to win to collect his fee. At the end of the season, playing an extra event without ranking points consequences would be a strange decision.

It is a bit of a strange event. It was brought in at a time when, for a very long time, the young players weren't breaking through against the old ones. Then in the first year that they held it, 2017, Zverev broke through and made the ATP finals.

The goal of the event is to highlight up and coming players, who may not be breaking through against the elite of the sport, but are in the top bracket of their peers, age-wise, so may be the stars of tomorrow. There is really very little point for someone who is already a global star on the main tour to participate.
Click to expand...

As for the event, they might consider changing eligibility requirements and make it 20-and-under rather than 21-and-under. If younger players start breaking through en masse, they might eventually make it 18-and-under, although I doubt things will get that far.
 
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mightyjeditribble said:
Money, sure, but at the very top I suspect that is not a main motivator for them anymore.
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Every time I start to think something like this, I see Djokovic or Nadal (or so many other examples) playing in some exhibition that seems completely unnecessary. We have that upcoming Saudi exo with Djokovic and Aclaraz, that seems like a terrible decision for both of them. Not just in terms of schedule and prep, but also politically. So money must indeed still be a huge motivator for them.

helterskelter said:
The range of human motivation is much wider than a rationalist reading permits.
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Going deep in the tennis forums! I like it.. and agree.
 
Wow ... Medjedovic snatches TB from van Assche with some serious firepower ! Really going for his shots
 
helterskelter said:
Very few players will play both, I agree. But if they can, eventually one will. The range of human motivation is much wider than a rationalist reading permits. Some people are completists and might play the event for completist reasons.
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Lol no, no one will ever play both. In fact, this event has clearly lost all meaning or purpose, and will most likely be dead within 3/4 years tops. This gloomy Arab edition, which flaunts its hypertechnologism yet can't even get the live Hawkeye to work, should go a long way in putting the next gen finals out of their misery.
 
Lol wow... Mickelson got double-bageled??? By the lowly, clay specialist wild card?? Is he trying to steal the MEP* award away from Nardi?

(*Most Embarrassing Player)
 
Baseline_Bungle said:
Lol no, no one will ever play both. In fact, this event has clearly lost all meaning or purpose, and will most likely be dead within 3/4 years tops. This gloomy Arab edition, which flaunts its hypertechnologism yet can't even get the live Hawkeye to work, should go a long way in putting the next gen finals out of their misery.
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If the event collapses within a few years, it's likely that nobody will ever play both. If the event continues in perpetuity, someone will eventually play both. As I said, humans do things for all sorts of reasons, not only because they are "rational" things to do, and sometimes even despite them being irrational. There might not be any particular benefit to playing both, but someone sometime would wish to do so for idiosyncratic reasons.
 
helterskelter said:
If the event collapses within a few years, it's likely that nobody will ever play both. If the event continues in perpetuity, someone will eventually play both. As I said, humans do things for all sorts of reasons, not only because they are "rational" things to do, and sometimes even despite them being irrational. There might not be any particular benefit to playing both, but someone sometime would wish to do so for idiosyncratic reasons.
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Your reasoning may be sound in a purely theoretical, ontological sense. But in reality, no, it's just never gonna happen. There may have been a tiny tiny chance when the next gens were held BEFORE the ATP Finals, even though plenty of players have already had the opportunity and no one even considered it an option. But with the event now scheduled on the very last week of the (long and draining) season, absolutely no top 8 player would ever cut into his precious off-season for this garbage. And even if one were inclined to do so, his staff, management and sponsors would promptly dissuade him.

Besides, the event clearly seems to have already declined since it's "hey day", and it's obvious that anyone in or around the Top 20 considers it well beneath them.
 
robyrolfo said:
What's embarrassing about Nardi? He pushed Fils down to the wire in their match.
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Guess you didn't watch him today...

Two performances that perfectly encapsulate the frustrating mystery that is Nardi: a great one, where he comes oh-so-close but inevitably loses, and one so dismal and apathetic that you wonder why he's even trying to make it as a pro.
 
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Baseline_Bungle said:
Your reasoning may be sound in a purely theoretical, ontological sense. But in reality, no, it's just never gonna happen. There may have been a tiny tiny chance when the next gens were held BEFORE the ATP Finals, even though plenty of players have already had the opportunity and no one even considered it an option. But with the event now scheduled on the very last week of the (long and draining) season, absolutely no top 8 player would ever cut into his precious off-season for this garbage. And even if one were inclined to do so, his staff, management and sponsors would promptly dissuade him.

Besides, the event clearly seems to have already declined since it's "hey day", and it's obvious that anyone in or around the Top 20 considers it well beneath them.
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You are probably right that the tournament isn't being taken as seriously as it was - being in Saudi Arabia definitely does not help, and the high cutoff point also doesn't, given that by 21 a player would hope to be competitive on tour.

I don't agree that all players will listen to their staff/management/sponsors, and think that people are weird enough that someone would within 10-20 years want to play a worthless event. If I'm right, we'll see at some point. If not, not.

I do agree that it will be a very rare choice unless the tournament makes changes.
 
Baseline_Bungle said:
Guess you didn't watch him today...

Two performances that perfectly encapsulate the frustrating mystery that is Nardi: a great one, where he comes oh-so-close but inevitably loses, and one so dismal and apathetic that you wonder why he's even trying to make it as a pro.
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No, actually, I didn't see him today. Just a few games from his match against Fils. But I see the scoreline doesn't look great.
 
helterskelter said:
I do agree that it will be a very rare choice unless the tournament makes changes.
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What is the prize money? A big payout is one of the only reasons I could see someone going for it, if they perhaps don't believe in themselves and want to bank as much as they can, when they can. This sport can be fickle...
 
robyrolfo said:
What is the prize money? A big payout is one of the only reasons I could see someone going for it, if they perhaps don't believe in themselves and want to bank as much as they can, when they can. This sport can be fickle...
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50K USD for attending and >30K USD for winning a match. 500K USD dollar for winning the tournament unbeaten. Pretty money for young players who mostly are used to Challenger level payouts
 
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