ViscaB
Hall of Fame
Aha
. But the trainer was giving feedback to the doctor. That's how I saw it at least.
ATP Rule on Medical Time Outs: "During the next changeover or set break"
- Thread starter mcenroefan
- Start date
Aha
. But the trainer was giving feedback to the doctor. That's how I saw it at least.
BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
Too bad, that's part of the game. Just because you can't move well doesn't mean you should be allowed a MTO when it's not a changeover nor a set break. I think it needs to be something so serious that you can't possibly play one more single point, like you fainted and are unconscious or broke a leg or had a heart attack or something along those lines.
ViscaB
Hall of Fame
He was ahead when he called for the MTO close to breaking del Potro...
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
They keep forgetting that it seems.
He wasn't ahead. It was before the tiebreak. But it doesn't matter...he obviously does it often when he's behind. Stopping play is just so annoying for any sport, such as in football when they have commercial breaks at every conceivable opportunity, or in the end of a basketball game when play is stopped every 2 seconds for a foul. That's all I'm saying. It's a major turn-off to watching a match.
ViscaB
Hall of Fame
It was 6-5 for Nadal and he got the injury to set up a breakpoint. I think it was deuce on del Potros' serve when he asked for the doctor to come after the end of the game. If that's not ahead for you we have a different interpretation...
I have never seen commercial breaks in football outside of half time
. A derivative sport can't take the name of the real deal.
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BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
How is 6-6 being ahead? That's when the 9 minute MTO occurred, right before the tiebreak. If the score was 5-0 in favor of Nadal, would he have taken a MTO? I doubt it.
ViscaB
Hall of Fame
He asked for it during the game which he was on the verge on winning. He had massive momentum. The injury originated from a fierce forehand which set up a set point for him. The following three points he was like a statue. He had to give away the game. Considering he broke Del Potro only once in the whole match (in the 4th set) it was a massive blow to Nadal.
It was 6-5 for Nadal and he got the injury to set up a breakpoint. I think it was deuce on del Potros' serve when he asked for the doctor to come after the end of the game. If that's not ahead for you we have a different interpretation...
I have never seen commercial breaks in football outside of half time
Okay, so he was ahead. My comment was only about how he is often behind and does it, and that's annoying on many levels. I am referring to his likability as a player due to these situations rather than the ethics.
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BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
How is 6-5 and on serve having "massive momentum"?
Why is it that Nadal never calls a MTO when he's up 5-0?
The Hermit
Semi-Pro
Breakpoint, I agree that the MTO should have be given after the tie breaker, however I don't think he faking it, I am watching the replay right now, after the landing, he immediately signaled to Tony something is wrong, using racquet pointing his foot, take note he had set point at this moment, and he lost the three points with no running at all, so I think the injury did happen, but he shouldn't call timeout after that game, since the tie breaker is coming. Also I think the umpire is wrong in this match but is consistent, he allowed Potro took a timeout too. Peace
Sentinel
Bionic Poster
HAHA !!! I hope this doesn't go unnoticed.I have never seen commercial breaks in football outside of half time
A game where you throw the ball with your hands is called football, don't you get it ViscaB ???
W
woodrow1029
Guest
ViscaB
Hall of Fame
HAHA !!! I hope this doesn't go unnoticed.
A game where you throw the ball with your hands is called football, don't you get it ViscaB ???
On top of that they wear protective gear. Rugby is the real deal. And the other sport is indeed played with your feet and invented centuries before.
Again, the issue here should be that the trainer (not the umpire) was wrong when he decided to appoint this a real medical time-out. That's where it went wrong, following the rule-book. It was so obviously not an acute injury. (The trainer, if I recall, even said something along the lines of, "that's not where one would normally have an injury", being quite baffled).
But what is the trainer going to do? Tell the Number 1 to put back on his socks and shoes, tell him this is not a valid reason for a longer time-out, and send him back onto the court? He never had any choice.
But what is the trainer going to do? Tell the Number 1 to put back on his socks and shoes, tell him this is not a valid reason for a longer time-out, and send him back onto the court? He never had any choice.
cucio
Legend
What would you be willing to bet on the correctness of your expert diagnosis?
As someone said, Nadal had all the momentum going for him: sizzling winner, break and set point. And then he decides to simulate he is injured, stays a few seconds crouching, points at his foot, walks gingerly and decides to tank the following 6 points to throw Del Potro off his game and win the tie breaker 8-6. If that isn't an evil mastermind, I don't know what it is. The guy deserves to win the set only on sheer deviousness and strategical thinking, kudos to him.
Exactly.
Can the actual rules be abused? Of course. Will the effect of more stringent rules be positive for the sport? Maybe, maybe not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4ku1Brn-YM&feature=player_detailpage#t=64s
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namelessone
Legend
LMAO at woodrow owning all the ****s around here.
Also, people here should start learning the concept of Occam's Razor.
What's more likely, that Nadal faked a injury(with grimacing, looking at his team in a discontent way etc.) after SP for him, gave false info to the trainer and ump just to hold off delpo for a couple of minutes and supposedly give himself a advantage in the tiebreaker(OMG, a tie against delpo on his worst surface, no way was Nadal ready for that!)
OR
he really felt a crushing sensation in his left foot upon landing from that fh and decided to have it looked after before it could(potentially) get worse.
One has to wonder why Nadal didn't take another MTO in the second tie of the match since it worked out so fine for him in the first.
Then again, what am I saying, there are people here that believe Fed lost the first set in RG(a fine choke to be sure) 2011 final because Nadal cut some tape on his feet(I don't know if that was even a MTO) BEFORE HIS OWN SERVE.
Bravo Mr. Nadal, a fine actor indeed!
Also, people here should start learning the concept of Occam's Razor.
What's more likely, that Nadal faked a injury(with grimacing, looking at his team in a discontent way etc.) after SP for him, gave false info to the trainer and ump just to hold off delpo for a couple of minutes and supposedly give himself a advantage in the tiebreaker(OMG, a tie against delpo on his worst surface, no way was Nadal ready for that!)
OR
he really felt a crushing sensation in his left foot upon landing from that fh and decided to have it looked after before it could(potentially) get worse.
One has to wonder why Nadal didn't take another MTO in the second tie of the match since it worked out so fine for him in the first.
Then again, what am I saying, there are people here that believe Fed lost the first set in RG(a fine choke to be sure) 2011 final because Nadal cut some tape on his feet(I don't know if that was even a MTO) BEFORE HIS OWN SERVE.
Bravo Mr. Nadal, a fine actor indeed!
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zagor
Bionic Poster
I like Baggy's game, heart and personality but if he was fitter he wouldn't be cramping no matter how good Dre still was at moving the opponent around the court.
Nadal fans constantly insist that Fed is giving the sport a sissy image with his crying, golden manbags and such but it's supposedly great for the image of the sport to see players ask for a timeout as soon as they have an itch? Man, that's really warrior like isn't it? We should incorporate it in every sport really, the opponent got you into combination in boxing you should just ask for a timeout to get your jaw massaged.
zagor
Bionic Poster
What he did was within rules no doubt(whether I think they're flawed or not is another matter), Woodrow did a good job explaining that. Breakpoint has no case here, we don't know how Nadal felt and whether it was gamesmanship or not, heck we don't even know the severity of injury yet, the fact that Nadal played through it doesn't mean he won't feel it the next day.
namelessone
Legend
LMAO at comparing a contact sport to tennis.
Also, tennis will NEVER have a warrior image and I highly doubt it ever did.
Tennis is viewed as a sport that comes from and caters to aristocracy.
The people who viewed as some sort of macho sport forget how some of the most iconic earlier tennis players looked:
And this was back when they played like "REAL MEN", with no timeouts, with lots of S&V and wood rackets.
So you can forget associating tennis with warrior like imagery.
Now here's a boxer from the 40's-50's:
mandy01
G.O.A.T.
Somehow, I have never understood how crying makes you sissy. There is nothing wrong or sissy about expressing raw human emotion in the form of tears . It's funny how racket-breaking or screaming, scowling , glaring , cheering, isn't considered 'sissy' but crying for some reason is. I think it is wonderful to see some men NOT pretend to be 'cool' or ' macho' and confirm with stereotypes.
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zagor
Bionic Poster
LMAO at comparing a contact sport to tennis.
Also, tennis will NEVER have a warrior image and I highly doubt it ever did.
Tennis is viewed as a sport that comes from and caters to aristocracy.
The people who viewed as some sort of macho sport forget how some of the most iconic earlier tennis players looked:
And this was back when they played like "REAL MEN", with no timeouts, with lots of S&V and wood rackets.
So you can forget associating tennis with warrior like imagery.
Now here's a boxer from the 40's-50's:
Is that Rocky Marciano? Either way, it's your fellow fans that constantly bring up warrior and Fed is girly/ballerina/sissy/bad image for sport BS. As I said while crying and golden manbags sure don't suit the warrior image neither do medical timeouts(to get a massage) and retirements.
zagor
Bionic Poster
I don't see anything that bad in it either, Fed is an emotional guy who cries win or lose, I would rather that he cries during the trophy ceremony but plays without any drama on court (golden manbags and navy suit was bad though IMO). However many people will consider that it's sissy and bad image for the sport to see a player bawl during a trophy ceremony and it's fine, they can see it that way, my point is however that getting constant time out massages and retiring from matches isn't exactly macho stuff either.
namelessone
Legend
Probably has to do with the fact that men are expected to be stoic in public.
You can blame this guy for that.
cucio
Legend
Since you are resorting to extreme analogies, in boxing a boxer can sustain life-threatening injuries if he is not fit, the referee fails to stop the fight on time or he is simply unlucky.
Obviously this can't happen in tennis, unless it is a freak, one-in-a-million accident like that linesman that got hit by Edberg. But eliminating MTOs can lead to career-threatening injuries or an increase of forfeits. Is it worth it? I'd say no, I can deal with yesterday's MTOs for both Nadal and Del Po since in the end it grants me more time of watching quality hitting. But this is a mater of taste, sure some will like the sport more warrior/hero/macho whatever.
Regarding Federer, my feeling is that most people disregard that he is as much a freak of nature as Nadal or Monfils. No matter how exquisite your technique is or how carefully you manage your calendar, pro tennis has a big impact on the body. Many players out there have flawless technique and play less matches than Fed and they get the usual wrist, elbow, back, ankle, knee, hip injuries. The fact that Roger almost never has asked a MTO or never retired during a match is indicative of ridiculous body endurance.
As someone else said, perhaps even more than my surprise that Nadal got away with another tactical time-out in the press, I find it incredibly fascinating how the Nadalfans are defending even this one, especially given both the timing and his history of these tactical time-outs. Basically: if you're not critical of this MTO, then you're never going to be critical - and that's pretty sad. Even though I'm a Henin fan, for instance, when Henin raised her hand in the Serena Williams match, I thought that was ridiculous gamesmanship. Being a fan of a player and being critical of him/her is not mutually exclusive, you know.
Back to the Nadal case, for one last time: basically the Nadal defense hinges on the fact that it was set point (which illustrates that you're always talking in extremes and in black-and-white). Of course Nadal felt a twinge or something, no doubt about it; that's not the issue. It could even turn out to be career-ending, so to speak (which it isn't of course), but at the moment it was not acute to warrant a medical time-out.
The issue here is that Nadal abused the rule (again, abused as in gamesmanship) 1) to regain mental composure himself and 2) to break Del Potro's momentum (who had just saved a breakpoint and took it to a tiebreak).
According to Woodrow the whole thing went by the book, and that is correct, up until the point that it was declared as an official medical time-out, but as I said above, I don't believe at that point the trainer could do anything else.
And again: how do we know it was not an acute injury: 1) you could already sense that with the trainer's remarks and 2) more importantly, you watched him running in the tie-break (and in the rest of the match).
It was 1) gamesmanship and 2) illegal if you follow the rule-book in theory/impossible to go against it following the rule-book in practice.
Bobby Jr
G.O.A.T.
Note, Nadal grimaces like that when hitting his shots. It is evidence of nothing other than effort.
Looking at his team in a discontent way... you mean like he does on every close line call as well?
Nadal fans just need to admit that, despite being one of the greatest talents tennis has ever seen, he is also a crybaby and 'comfort zone' person oblivious to many of the things most other people take for granted. As evidenced in his OCD behaviours which seem to include calling for trainers at an increasing rate.
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mandy01
G.O.A.T.
Apparently , if men aren't the stereotype-macho looking people, they're sissy girls :roll: If they like fashion, it's even worse. "A man? Fashion? Ewww, what a girl." And what is the other word they use? 'Eurowhatsit'
The funny part, is some of the most casually dressed rich folks, often turn out to be some of the biggest brats.
(edit-I agree the bag and the military jacket was a bad idea because it didn't suit him at all. :wink
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namelessone
Legend
So wait a minute, you're saying you think Nadal had a twinge in his foot at the time and was within the rules but he ABUSED the rules!?
The trainer said that it was an unusual place to get injured(or that's what I could make out), not that it was nothing.
Also, if Nadal doesn't have anything major at that point(when he still has SP mind you), what's the point of calling the trainer(he called it during the dp service game as he was already there when they finished that game)?
I mean if you have nothing major physically and are 1-2 points away(SP or deuce on DP's serve), why not try to win those points instead of setting up a mock treatment in order to upset Delpo mentally for the tiebreak(which is way more dangerous than playing those couple of points cause anything can happen in a tie and you lose the set instead of a game).
Nadal apparently even faked walking funny(having trouble putting pressure on the outside of the left foot) in the first couple of points of the tiebreaker.
Gotta say Nadal is dedicated as hell if he faked this.
namelessone
Legend
Did you watch the match or are you talking out of your ass?
Nadal was looking towards his foot after landing on that fh and gave a discontented look to his box after that. That's what I meant.
Please give me a rundown of all the MTO's Nadal has taken this year(in 60 matches)since you and other haters seem to know so much about his "habits".
So far nobody has been able to show me an extensive list of all the MTO's Rafa took this year.
cucio
Legend
I find rather ironic that someone can claim objectiveness when his arguments are simply value judgments. You believe it is gamesmanship and you are certainly entitled to your beliefs, but if you are going to pull the "you are blindsided by your feelings" card you have to be ready to back up your reasoning with some incontrovertible proof.
Personally I am no one's fan, I don't care a farthing of who won that match, and I will laugh my ass off at all the rabid fans here if someone like Fish or Feliciano ends up lifting up the cup
I can see how a tactical MTO or bathroom break can work as a momentum shifter (tactical timeouts are actually considered legitimate part of the game in some sports) and I think players like Nadal, Djokovic or even Federer (some more than others) have used them to their advantage, when they have been clearly behind and need to grasp for straws to dig themselves out of a hole, but I frankly don't see how that applies to yesterday's situation, the particular circumstances are just not supportive of that hypothesis.
It is deplorable that MTOs can be abused, but they offer protection against the possibility of a player injuring himself seriously by downplaying a potentially serious condition in the heat of the competition, one has to think carefully before changing the rules that govern them. If you are going to remove the "innocent unless proven guilty" failsafe you have to be ready to deal with the consequences of mistakes.
Bobby Jr
G.O.A.T.
Yes, I saw it. I'm just pointing out his facial expression isn't really evidence of anything. He may have been hurt but I've seen that look in tons of matches he's gone on to win like he just recharged himself from a green lantern.
I have watched him play for years, including many times live, and he routinely looks up at his box with that silly "que?" expression when a call is close or he loses more than a few points in a row.
Saying he doesn't is ignoring what happens over and over and over and over in his matches. It is nothing short of disrespectful that he does it so flippantly and I can only assume it happens because of a sort of sheltered immaturity (which many sportspeople have). The alternative explanation is he does it deliberately in some umbrella lack of true respect for his opponents. Few people would share his view on what constitutes respect for an opponent or the concept of fair play in terms of actions. He chooses to skirt around the fringes of decency as a matter of course in the knowledge that few will ever call him out on it. The fact he talks the talk so well in interviews - serving up all the right niceties over and over despite how he acts on court - says he is either highly astute and deliberate or borderline bonkers.
The guy is a mega talent but let's not make excuses to mitigate what are often quite obviously unsporting quirks. They go hand in hand with his OCD-isms. Intentional - probably not. Should he be aware of them and aim to do them less - without doubt.
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It's funny how the people defending Nadal say that he called for the MTO when he was "ahead" and about to win the set. Like that makes a damn difference. He called for a MTO in the 1st set of the Muller match when he was "behind" and about to lose the set.
Or maybe Nadal can just call for a MTO whenever the hell he feels like if each instance is going to be defended and rationalized.
Or maybe Nadal can just call for a MTO whenever the hell he feels like if each instance is going to be defended and rationalized.
namelessone
Legend
So Nadal shouldn't call MTO's under any circumstance,right?
He can only call them when the set is done, only on his own serve trying at the same time to not disturb the delicate sensibilities of the opponent or GOD FORBID! change the momentum.
The "incontrovertible proof" (which never exists, which is why he can get away with it and why it is gamesmanship) is in the match itself. In the tiebreak and the rest of the match he was running everything down, as fast as always (to both corners). Del Potro called him out for it. Even Tim Henman expressed his doubt multiple times. Anyone who watched the match neutrally realized this.
Plus, if you want something objective: it has just been announced the MRI scan showed nothing.
He misstepped, felt something, and was mentally vulnerable (because being a hypochondriac he is always worried about these things). Nadal then took a medical time-out to recompose at a time when that is only allowed for acute injuries. This was not an acute injury. Hence, gamesmanship.
The rule is perfect as it is. So is the time-between-points rule, for instance. The problem lies in enforcing the rules.
The fact that you don't like the rule and the reasoning behind it (which is why you reference it in sarcasm) is irrelevant.
Bobby Jr
G.O.A.T.
Exactly. When you're ahead is just as good a time as any... unsettling your opponent's rhythm would be the objective. The more crucial the next game, the more it could have an effect.
namelessone
Legend
Take it when you are behind:
-trying to cheat your way back in and break your opponent's flow.
Take it when you are in front:
-trying to gain a upper hand even though you are ahead. Plus no one will be suspicious since you are already ahead.
I think we should scrape MTO's alltogether.
I mean there isn't a legit time for it in any tennis match apparently.
catskillthunder
Professional
So if Nadal is ahead its beneficial for him to take the MTO. When Nadal is behind it is beneficial for him to take the MTO. So when is it ok for Nadal to take the MTO? I am not understanding the logic of some of the things being said here. Wouldn't it be just as beneficial for the opponent if Nadal were ahead or the match even? Give the opponent time to look up at his box and get some signals thrown at him or give him more time to think about strategy moving forward?
Bobby Jr
G.O.A.T.
They should simplify it. You're allowed one normal MTO per tournament. After that it's a 1 game penalty each time you take a MTO - and the choice of serve/receive on the next game reverts to your opponent each time also.
That'd make some players get a lot fitter pretty fast. In the least it would confine them to the beginning of sets, not at 5-4 or 6-5 as Rafael Lazarus seems to take his.
Bobby Jr
G.O.A.T.
In 3 of the possible 4 situations it is to his benefit (assuming it's at 4-5/5-4, 6-5/5-6)... when he is ahead and either serving or receiving the next game... or when he is behind and receiving the next game. All those situations mean the opponent's groove is impacted the most either before they are about to serve or when the next game is a must-win scenario to stay in the set/level up. As happened in the Del Potro match yesterday.
catskillthunder
Professional
.....but he took the MTO when it was 6-6 and he was to serve 1st in the TB
DjokovicForTheWin
Banned
This is a very good point actually. Instead of all this grey BS rules surrounding MTOs, why not just dispense with them altogether which will make it fair for all. If for any reason you cannot continue to play, be it cramps, misstep, twist, crunch, etc, etc and it affects your game, then stop playing and forfeit the match. Any delays and you're out. Simple as that.
In other words, why isn't your health/fitness just as important as your FH being on. If your FH is off on a day, you can't simply take a break and fix your timing. You live with it. Same with injuries. You can't play? Then don't PLAY! OUT!
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