ATP vs. WTA Serve Mechaincs

[Topspin Shot]

There's a pretty good discussion going on about the ATP vs. the WTA forehand. I'd like to share my observations on the differences in serve mechanics I see on the two tours.

In a nutshell, the number one difference I see in women's serves (there are exceptions like Stosur for example) is that they always swing in the direction of the target. Therefore, they are relegated to hitting flat or pure sidespin serves, in which they open completely and smack the ball head on, or they are forced to use a poor racket drop to hit topspin, in which they stay sideways, and the racket ends up coming up the middle of their back. Also as a result of their swing path, they do not get the same degree of ISR as the men do, and their head pulls down prematurely.

The men serve in a different manner (and there are no men on tour I know of who serve WTA style). They do not swing out to the target on their spin serves but rather in the direction of the net post. They rely on the fact that their strings face the target at contact to get the ball where they want it to go. As a result, they can hit spin serves with a topspin component while keeping the racket outside their back in the drop phase. When they want to flatten the ball out, they swing more in the direction of the target, and on second serves, they swing even more off to the side than the net post.

This is not an isolated incident. There are no men who use the WTA style whereas many if not most of the women do. Interestingly, the exceptions on the women's tour (Stosur and Henin for example) also use ATP forehands. So please tell me what you think. Am I on to something, or am I way off base? If I am correct, perhaps a coach like TCF can offer theories of why many girls serve this way. Is it because they struggle to throw, or is it a bad idea for their serves to get too much topspin? Perhaps topspin serves hit by a women would sit up too much? Again, please let me know your thoughts.

 

[dominikk1985]

most women just have inferior serves because they don't have learned a proper throwing motion. also they don't have a lot of knee action and "archers bow" and thus trouble to kick a serve.

While I see a rationale for the "WTA FH" i.e using a longer acceleration path and flatter swing for less explosive players to generate pace I don't think that there is any reason for using the serve of some WTA players exept a lack of ability.


the best female servers (lisicki, serena) all serve like men.

 

[Lukhas]

Well, might watch this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8q2cBx19ec
Or even read this.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...9974-5c975ae4810f_allComments.html?ctab=all_&

FWIW, I calculated the average size and weight of 7 out of the 8 women who had a serve recorded at 200kph (124mph) or more on Wikipedia: 180,85cm and 67,42kgs. Current top10 average: 176,4cm and 64kgs. Notice that Stosur never had a 200+kph serve ever recorded, but given the quality of her serve (especially kick), I don't think it's her main problem.

 

[tennis_balla]

Lukhas, watching that video there's a quick fix to that and its been discussed here as well (what hasn't been discussed here?). Tossing more parallel with the baseline. Wozy, Janko and Martina all tossed with their arm in front of them. Nadal shows it nicely in that video, tossing more parallel with baseline, J toss, whatever you wanna call it.

 

[Ash_Smith]

^^^Watched the Jack Broudy video - still not sure I can agree that the reason the girls serve very differently is purely down to "bad coaching". There are obviously technical differences in many individual cases, just as there are for the men.

Went to an interesting discussion with Carl Maes about this, he put the biggest difference down to the fact because girls throwing mechanics aren't as well developed (evolutionarily speaking) that they have to compensate by leaning forward more from the hips throughout the contact phase to try and more weight into the ball. This does cause a disconnect between upper and lower body and is actually counter intuitive.

One thing I have noticed is that many of the girls throw the ball more to the right for contact than the guys do which may influence the above.

 

[tennis_balla]

I'll add something though, I think he's nitpicking a bit however in terms of the technique. The biggest problem I feel in junior girls/women's serves is that they were never really taught or never got that they could use their serve as a weapon. Girls grind out matches a lot. You watch some of these Futures tournaments or Challenger events and there are some ridiculously long rallies and some serious stress these chics are under with every point being a grind especially on clay courts.

 

[mbm0912]

Well, might watch this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8q2cBx19ec
Or even read this.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...9974-5c975ae4810f_allComments.html?ctab=all_&

FWIW, I calculated the average size and weight of 7 out of the 8 women who had a serve recorded at 200kph (124mph) or more on Wikipedia: 180,85cm and 67,42kgs. Current top10 average: 176,4cm and 64kgs. Notice that Stosur never had a 200+kph serve ever recorded, but given the quality of her serve (especially kick), I don't think it's her main problem.

good video

 

[tennis_balla]

Went to an interesting discussion with Carl Maes about this, he put the biggest difference down to the fact because girls throwing mechanics aren't as well developed (evolutionarily speaking) that they have to compensate by leaning forward more from the hips throughout the contact phase to try and more weight into the ball. This does cause a disconnect between upper and lower body and is actually counter intuitive.

So what you're saying is the term "throw like a girl" is true? haha I'm kidding but yea I agree. I've seen very few girls who can throw like guys can, and that makes a big difference on the serve.

 

[julian]

Maes

^^^Watched the Jack Broudy video - still not sure I can agree that the reason the girls serve very differently is purely down to "bad coaching". There are obviously technical differences in many individual cases, just as there are for the men.

Went to an interesting discussion with Carl Maes about this, he put the biggest difference down to the fact because girls throwing mechanics aren't as well developed (evolutionarily speaking) that they have to compensate by leaning forward more from the hips throughout the contact phase to try and more weight into the ball. This does cause a disconnect between upper and lower body and is actually counter intuitive.

One thing I have noticed is that many of the girls throw the ball more to the right for contact than the guys do which may influence the above.

The presentation by Maes was recorded on an "audio" tape.
It was somewhere on www.itftennis.com
I cannot find a link now
Could you drop by to the beackhand thread-there were some questions for you?
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=485248&page=2

 

[arche3]

Can it really be boiled down to as cavemen men threw spears and women didn't?

 

[julian]

The presentation by Maes

It is on a Web site www.tennisicoach.com
(the Web site is not free)

 

[Dimcorner]

I don't agree with the bad coaching either. I think it's more a physical thing. A badminton shuttle and racquet doesn't weigh much and at the pro levels you can see a pretty big difference in speed between men and women. In slow motion the upper body the smash looks very similar but I think the difference is in lower body. They seem to load up on the back leg and lift the front to get the the weight transfer going where men seem to be able to keep both feet planted (unless they are jump smashing that is). Maybe the hip anatomy is somehow restricting a power transfer?

 

[Topspin Shot]

The single biggest thing I noticed in many of the WTA motions, aside from the general lack of comfortableness, was the swing path. The women seem to be lining up to and swinging at the target whereas the men are lining up with the net post and swinging out that way. I believe this swing path enables them to stay more sideways, get the correct racket drop, swing up more on the ball, and get better shoulder rotation. The reason I started this thread was mainly to share this specific observation, specifically for the reason that the swing path is something that can be taught. In other words, it seems that there are fundamental mechanical differences between the two serves, not just the enhanced ability of men to throw. Therefore, just as some girls are being taught to hit the ATP forehand with a couple simple corrections (for better or worse), if my thoughts are on target, then girls theoretically can also be taught the ATP serve without too much trouble.

 

[sureshs]

Could it be as simple as that the ATP serve is much more difficult to do in a physical sense?

 

[Dimcorner]

Could it be as simple as that the ATP serve is much more difficult to do in a physical sense?

I think it might be. Sure you can do it a few times, but doing it explosively over and over might just be too taxing on the body if you have to include running around and hitting ground strokes. I seriously doubt that coaches are purposely teaching girls to hit softer serves. A big serve can earn you quite a few easy points and it's something you can practice yourself so it should be something that can be practiced correctly without taking up too much court time.

I think there are anatomical limitations on women (muscular/skeletal/nervous system wiring) that make it very difficult for women to do the ATP style motion comfortably and persistently thru an entire match. Just like you don't see many women dunking baskets even thou shorter NBA and college players can do it frequently.

 

[user92626]

To me, threads that compare and distinguish women and men always seems stupid.

Who represents ATP and WTA styles?

I got the impression that the over whelming majority here are men who if watch pro tennis over overwhelmingly see only the top 4 guys, effectively ignoring all the lowly ranked, crappy servers. In other words, their idea of effective serving is only based on these 4 top guys and of course it is very effective!

To me, there are plenty of differences within each gender itself. While you guys are focus on Fed, Murray, Djokovic, Del Potro, etc, I don't see anything different or ineffective about Stossure's, Serena's, Sharapova or Na Li's serves. If anything the women tends to perform the serve more technically and as intended than the men. That is they get their whole body into it as opposed to some top men taking advantage of their strength and muscling the stroke. Roddick, Delopo (the Ukraine dude) come to mind.

 

[Topspin Shot]

To me, threads that compare and distinguish women and men always seems stupid.

Who represents ATP and WTA styles?

I got the impression that the over whelming majority here are men who if watch pro tennis over overwhelmingly see only the top 4 guys, effectively ignoring all the lowly ranked, crappy servers. In other words, their idea of effective serving is only based on these 4 top guys and of course it is very effective!

To me, there are plenty of differences within each gender itself. While you guys are focus on Fed, Murray, Djokovic, Del Potro, etc, I don't see anything different or ineffective about Stossure's, Serena's, Sharapova or Na Li's serves. If anything the women tends to perform the serve more technically and as intended than the men. That is they get their whole body into it as opposed to some top men taking advantage of their strength and muscling the stroke. Roddick, Delopo (the Ukraine dude) come to mind.

There is not a single male on tour who uses the WTA style serve. And the vast majority of the women do, including Sharapova and Li. The ATP vs. WTA style serve has nothing to do with idiosyncrasies like those of Roddick or Dolgopolov but rather the fundamental way of hitting the ball. I explain the differences between the two styles in my OP.

 

[user92626]

but rather the fundamental way of hitting the ball.

oh like they use different physics to propel the ball the target? Perhaps that's where the phrase men from mars and women from venus comes from. :shock:

Seriously, my eyes might bad but I can't tell the difference between our poster boy Fed and declining Ivonavic:

Racket drop, landing foot, pronation, follow thru different? (Wise man once told me that if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it must be a duck)

 

[dominikk1985]

To me, threads that compare and distinguish women and men always seems stupid.

Who represents ATP and WTA styles?

I got the impression that the over whelming majority here are men who if watch pro tennis over overwhelmingly see only the top 4 guys, effectively ignoring all the lowly ranked, crappy servers. In other words, their idea of effective serving is only based on these 4 top guys and of course it is very effective!

To me, there are plenty of differences within each gender itself. While you guys are focus on Fed, Murray, Djokovic, Del Potro, etc, I don't see anything different or ineffective about Stossure's, Serena's, Sharapova or Na Li's serves. If anything the women tends to perform the serve more technically and as intended than the men. That is they get their whole body into it as opposed to some top men taking advantage of their strength and muscling the stroke. Roddick, Delopo (the Ukraine dude) come to mind.

Delpotro is arming his serve but you can't be serious about roddick. that dude is really exploding into the ball with his legs.

 

[WildVolley]

That is they get their whole body into it as opposed to some top men taking advantage of their strength and muscling the stroke. Roddick, Delopo (the Ukraine dude) come to mind.

This is a rather astonishing claim.

If Roddick didn't have an efficient stroke, how much harder do you reckon he could have hit the ball using what you believe to be proper form?

I would suggest that what is really going on is that you don't understand proper serve form AND men are stronger and more physical than women.

Also, I think you mean Dolgopolov rather than Del Potro who is the tall Argentinian.

 

[user92626]

WV,

I knew my post would rile up some of you guys.

Where did I use the word "proper"?

There's no such thing as proper form. It's stupid to get into that argument.

There's only effectiveness or not. Roddick is freakishly strong. In fact almost all pro men are stronger than necessary for this sport. Fortunately, the game isn't decided from a static strength. (In another post, I also stated that big servers, fh, bh hitters do not tend to win tournaments.) But again, don't start another stupid argument about men stronger than women.

There are several questions from me that I dont' see anyone addressing.

Who represents ATP and WTA anyway? What differences do you see between Fed and Ivanovic in the photos I posted?

 

[JohnYandell]

Fascinating question. There is obviously a range of motions on both tours, but the general differences are clear. The contact is more to the right for women with the body more open at contact.

Related to this with the women is the extreme pinpoint stance where the back foot often comes around to the right side of the front. This goes with the toss to the right. The tendency is to hit hard and relatively flat with the spin component being overwhelmingly sidespin

My personal opinion is that it is part physical, part coaching, and part herd.

As the forehand is moving toward the men's model the serve may too.

The USTA asked me a few years ago to try to teach a platform stance based serve with a toss more to the left to a former junior who was one of the top 5 college players in the country.

It went great! She mastered the motion pretty quickly using Fed as a model and comparing her to that on video. Everyone was thrilled.

About 6 months later I had a chance to see her play a college match. You guessed it. Right back to the old motion. I know a few other coaches who have had similar experiences with elite juniors.

It's gotta be more than just technique. But I do think that the two styles will eventually come closer if not merge.

 

[TCF]

Fascinating question. There is obviously a range of motions on both tours, but the general differences are clear.

The other factor you see with the women is the extreme pinpoint stance where the back foot often comes around to the right side of the front. This goes with the toss to the right. The tendency is to hit hard and relatively flat with the spin component being overwhelmingly sidespin

My personal opinion is that it is part physical, part coaching, and part herd.

As the forehand is moving toward the men's model the serve may too.

The USTA asked me a few years ago to try to teach a platform stance based serve with a toss more to the left to a former junior who was one of the top 5 college players in the country.

It went great! She mastered the motion pretty quickly using Fed as a model and comparing her to that on video. Everyone was thrilled.

About 6 months later I had a chance to see her play a college match. You guessed it. Right back to the old motion. I know a few other coaches who have had similar experiences with elite juniors.

It's gotta be more than just technique. But I do think that the two styles will eventually come closer if not merge.

You described the differences perfectly but it is what it is, women are different than men in many ways.

Women servers naturally gravitate to a certain style, women's forehands naturally gravitate to a certain style. And coaches who try to make one style with all girls having to hit like boys will have many more failures than successes.

I have gotten quite a few chuckles out of the forehand thread and I am sure this will follow suit. We live in the REAL world. In the real world the evidence is enormous that the vast majority of females will have success using their own natural style. Allowing the exceptions who happen to have success like Henin to do their thing is great, but so is allowing the others to do what comes natural and is effective for them.

But if coaches want to try, like one poster said, to make every 9 year old girl have the same exact forehand as Nadal, who generates more spin than any human in history....go for it. Our kids will wait for them in the 16s nationals and crush their forehands right back, just like I saw at the Orange Bowl 5 years ago, last week, and will 5 years from now.

 

[WildVolley]

WV,

I knew my post would rile up some of you guys.

Where did I use the word "proper"?

You didn't. But you did state "If anything the women tend to perform the serve more technically and as intended than the men."

I interpreted that as meaning the "proper" way. Either I misread you or you are backtracking. What does serving more "technically" mean?

There's no such thing as proper form. It's stupid to get into that argument.

I'd probably agree that there isn't a single proper form, but there's probably more efficient and less efficient form. I'd argue that hitting like Roddick is more "proper" than slapping at it with a semi-western grip using a waiter's tray motion. But I agree that we'd have to define our goals before discussing differences in form. Not a serious issue. You tend to agree with my view that effectiveness is what we're after.

But again, don't start another stupid argument about men stronger than women.

Statistically, men are significantly stronger than women, so the argument would be stupid because it is manifest: the side arguing that men are stronger than women is clearly correct.

Who represents ATP and WTA anyway? What differences do you see between Fed and Ivanovic in the photos I posted?

I agree that the differences are small and I don't know that we've perfectly defined them. Ivanovic's foot and hip motion seems different than Federer's. At a minimum, her hitting stance is different and she has less archer's bow.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Oh boy, another thread on how men's technique is "superior" to women.

Newsflash: Women are not as strong as men. Men have bigger muscles, stronger ligaments and tendons, faster reflexes, the list goes on and on. When it comes to most sports, men are physiologically superior to women. That is just a fact. MOST women simply can not develop a serve to be a powerful weapon in the way a man is able to. I don't care what technique you show them.

I'm with TCF on both this thread and the forehand thread. Women have adopted certain techniques for whatever physiological reasons. Attributing WTA "deficiences" solely to technique, without acknowlegding the massive gulf in male vs. female physical abilities, is ridiculous.

The fact is that there has been much success in utilizing WTA style forehands and serves by most female players. So why adopt some other style that may or may not have any benefit?

And personally, I really don't see there being a different "technique" when it comes to the service motion. In that youtube video, the guy seemed to be ragging on pinpoint technique, when many male players also use it. It's possible that women just don't get the same power out of the coil / hip rotation that men get. It's possible that women feel they get more reliability out of a simpler service motion and that is a trade-off for whatever power output they may get out of that rotation or using a platform serve. We don't know.

 

[onehandbh]

At the recreational level I've seen plenty
of guys using either an inefficient version of
the WTA style serve or a "muscle the ball"
technique and think their 75mph "power"
first serve going in 25% of the time is
actually a 100+ mph thundercat.

 

[user92626]

WV,

Your post#24 sounds more agreeing with me than differing. Let me elaborate a little. By "technically and as intended" I meant in many instances women utilize their whole body into the stroke, as the sport intends. You could feel it's more bio-mechanically efficient, but it's rather subjective.

A 12 years old with good training could serve very technically but still couldn't "out-serve" a less technical strong adult though.

In addition to the photos of Fed and Ivanovic, let me add two clips of Na Li and Ferrer. To me, Na Li's serve looks more technically pleasing to the eyes than Ferrer, whose limbs aren't straight, pulls down his head too soon, less complete follow-thru/swing, though no doubt Ferrer serves much stronger than Na Li. But it's all subjective.


These two players seem very similar in their careers: late bloomers, frequent quarter, semi-finalists, similar mental fortitude.

Again, tell me the big, "fundamental" differences as this thread suggests? Frankly, I can't tell.

Na Li:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KkzJgOzYJc

Ferrer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5-pnLAGaTk

 

[sureshs]

My personal opinion is that it is part physical, part coaching, and part herd.

That seems to be the correct answer.

The three aspects can also reinforce each other and become less independent over time.

 

[WildVolley]

WV,

Your post#24 sounds more agreeing with me than differing. Let me elaborate a little. By "technically and as intended" I meant in many instances women utilize their whole body into the stroke, as the sport intends. You could feel it's more bio-mechanically efficient, but it's rather subjective.

We probably disagree slightly. I tend to think that Roddick uses more of his body than almost any other server, but because his motion is very explosive most observers aren't aware of what is going on. For example, I've been told that Roddick doesn't have a racket drop, and this observer wasn't joking.:shock:

In addition to the photos of Fed and Ivanovic, let me add two clips of Na Li and Ferrer. To me, Na Li's serve looks more technically pleasing to the eyes than Ferrer, whose limbs aren't straight, pulls down his head too soon, less complete follow-thru/swing, though no doubt Ferrer serves much stronger than Na Li. But it's all subjective.

I'm not very impressed by Ferrer's serve.

Again, tell me the big, "fundamental" differences as this thread suggests? Frankly, I can't tell.

I agree with you that there's much less of a clear difference between serves as there is a clear difference in forehands. I think a lot of the difference is probably just physical. Gulbis and Soderling, for example, both smash the serve using a very WTA-like jack-in-the-box serve motion from the pinpoint stance.

I watched Ivanovic serve last summer and I was surprised at how bad her toss is. She chased it all over the place. I know a number of 3.5s who toss more accurately than she does. It is sort of amazing how poorly some of the top pros do simple things like toss the ball.

 

[GuyClinch]

At the amateur level this is a huge problem. Granted we aren't talking about even 'good' players but the idea of swinging in a different direction then the eventual ball flight seems lost on a lot of women..

I actually think some of the teaching mantra is part of the problem here. The serve is not exactly like a throw in that if I wanted to throw the ball over the net - I would never throw out towards the net post. But on my basic serve I do that all the time.

its counterintuitive. I'd think that the pro women have figured this out though.. Likewise if I wanted to throw the ball over the net I wouldn't need to go 'up the mountain' I could just throw it over the net..

That being said I am surprised that anyone thinks this is a problem at the pro level. The problem according to Macci with women's serves is the timing of the leg drive.. That sounds more plausible to me as its a small problem robbing them of some power..not a huge issue like not understanding basic serve mechanics.

 

[sureshs]

Should male rec players emulate the ATP or the WTA serve?

 

[Topspin Shot]

At the amateur level this is a huge problem. Granted we aren't talking about even 'good' players but the idea of swinging in a different direction then the eventual ball flight seems lost on a lot of women..

I actually think some of the teaching mantra is part of the problem here. The serve is not exactly like a throw in that if I wanted to throw the ball over the net - I would never throw out towards the net post. But on my basic serve I do that all the time.

its counterintuitive. I'd think that the pro women have figured this out though.. Likewise if I wanted to throw the ball over the net I wouldn't need to go 'up the mountain' I could just throw it over the net..

That being said I am surprised that anyone thinks this is a problem at the pro level. The problem according to Macci with women's serves is the timing of the leg drive.. That sounds more plausible to me as its a small problem robbing them of some power..not a huge issue like not understanding basic serve mechanics.

Sharapova vs. Federer. (It's amazing; I can get all the frame by frames I want of male pros, but this is all I could get for a woman pro.) The key frame in the Sharapova picture is the last one. Her arm is not directly in line with her target, but it's closer than that of an ATP pro. Compare it to Federer's arm in frame 10; his arm is pointed at the net post. More importantly, Federer's entire body is pointed at the net post, whereas Sharapova is considerably more open, and there's a disconnect between her arm and body. As Yandell said, the big difference he sees is the opening of the body and the carving of nearly pure sidespin on the ball. So it seems like there is in fact a tendency for women to push out to the target rather than entirely trust the idea of throwing the racket in a different direction from the target.

 

[sureshs]

It doesn't seem as big a difference as you make it out to be

 

[Topspin Shot]

Should male rec players emulate the ATP or the WTA serve?

If you're being serious, I would learn to hit a fundamentally sound topslice serve and work from there. The main differences between ATP and WTA serves, as with forehands, seem to get exposed as the serves develop, not right from the outset.

 

[Topspin Shot]

It doesn't seem as big a difference as you make it out to be

How big do you think I'm making it out to be?

 

[user92626]

I agree with you that there's much less of a clear difference between serves as there is a clear difference in forehands. I think a lot of the difference is probably just physical. Gulbis and Soderling, for example, both smash the serve using a very WTA-like jack-in-the-box serve motion from the pinpoint stance.

WV,

I'm glad that we agree at this point. There's no more difference between men and women pro than there is between men (and women) themselves. Certainly no clear or big difference as this thread makes out to be.

I agree that if there's any difference it's just physical strength. I think men have abundant strength that they can swipe the ball a little more side way, and that's about it.

Many women pro have male coaches. I doubt if there's any secret that they do not know or do not teach. It's just that people tend to gravitate toward what's most efficient for them.

About wta vs atp forehand, now that I think about it, I also think the difference is super tiny and quite natural actually. If you want to maximize your power, it's natural that you'd wind up your back swing more, no? Men do not need to get more power from their swing. Like I said before, pro men are already stronger than necessary for this sport. They can afford to swing "atp style"

 

[user92626]

Should male rec players emulate the ATP or the WTA serve?

They don't necessarily emulate any style. Nature takes its course so most rec players serve like WTA (or worse). Being weak, unflexible and untrained as compared to atp pros, most rec players can't bend well, can't snap at the core, are unbalanced and falling on their weight more...and viola..you got (a cheap variation of) WTA style!!!!

 

[Lukhas]

I didn't really want to get back here since I just posted the videos and blog as a reference for fuelling discussion, but anyway.

@Topspin Shot: I think that while here, Sharapova, throw her body into the shot, she does not seem to effectively use her body. She gets the idea of the serve, but I feel she tries hard and don't get great results. I think she rotate nearly much as male pros, but that since she did not really rotate her upper body during the trophy pose, the effort isn't very effective. When you can clearly see Federer's chest during the trophy pose, you can't say as much for the Russian, even if she catches up a bit later. She has to push harder on the legs to get the "spring effect" and get higher, over rotate the upper body, and when her upper body is way beyond the zone she serves to, her lower body hasn't rotated nearly as much as Federer... who isn't much more flexible than she is, if that flexible at all. Then, since her lower body hasn't followed during the motion, finding balance is harder when she lands.
Actually it's more a matter of a fix than an actual complete overhaul. She should, because she keeps getting shoulder injuries... and I think that's because she tries so hard on the serve.

Say, that makes me remember Dougherty's emphasis in the body rotation in all the serves he teaches through the use of the "cylinder drill" as he puts it. Actually I think I get his point. It's not that hard to fix a low or close elbow on trophy pose. Nor it is hard to bend the knees more, or to try harder. What's harder is to set up the upper body properly. Because all women pros know how to pitch and know how to serve. But there's that disconnection between upper and lower body. And I don't think it's that easy to fix, even if I pointed out that the average build of a +200kph female server isn't very close to the build of a top player. However, 1,80cm or slightly lower (5'11) and 65 to 70kgs (143 to 154lbs) isn't crazy impressive for most young female pros either.

Discuss.

 

[dominikk1985]

good video however I think that the problem is not the lack of hip rotation as the dude in the vid said but the lack of "bowing"

the hips are inactive because they are not really pushed into the court (bowed) which also explains the lack of lean.

the revolutionary tennis guy said that bow is more important then bend and you should bow before you bend.

http://www.revolutionarytennis.com/step12_2.html

 

[Lukhas]

^I don't think so. The bow is here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndixD2tKnlA
EDIT:
FWIW... While I believe they're trying to sell their stuff (just like that video in fact), Somax guys said while analysing Roddick's serve that hip rotation is a big source of power in strokes, and especially in the serve. Who knows who's right.
EDIT2: If you read further, the RevTen guy also tells you to "twist" right on the next page. Seems too many coaches love hip rotation...

 

[dominikk1985]

^I don't think so. The bow is here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndixD2tKnlA
EDIT:
FWIW... While I believe they're trying to sell their stuff (just like that video in fact), Somax guys said while analysing Roddick's serve that hip rotation is a big source of power in strokes, and especially in the serve. Who knows who's right.

I don't think that maria is showing real bow. she is pushing her hips into the court but her front hip is still flexed. a real bow would have the front hip (over) extended and not just pushed into the court but also to the chest side fence.

look at the angle in between her front thigh and front side while fed has his thigh and front side in one line
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20131114081359/olympians/images/0/09/Roger-federer-serve.jpg

for me it doesn't look like feds hips are rotated. they are turned back more but still pointing in the same direction as the feet so there is really no twist between the legs and hips.

male pinpointers IMO don't have much more hip rotation then the women.

here is tsonga:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCUQM50zZ9I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brFM9HXHJj8

 

[dominikk1985]

that would be a real bow
http://jennfit.ca/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/0031.jpg

 

[Lukhas]

The angle of the pic you used for Federer doesn't tell much. Look at these ones:
http://www.essentialtennisinstruction.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/roger_tossing_3.jpg
http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/image...54/334/107181468_display_image.jpg?1291849467

If his torso didn't rotate, I don't know what it is.
But anyway, what about this bow?
http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/497581secondservetennis.jpg

EDIT: Same angle, Federer. Not much more of a bow, but his torso rotated.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4138/4899880621_ce61d0aa5a.jpg
I differentiated bow and twist, which are not the exact same thing. I don't care which or which gives power to the serve; I just want to make sure we're talking about the same stuff.

 

[5263]

Imo there are 2 main issues in regards to men and womens serves.

First is height, in that most the best male servers are over 6' 1" & strong. Yes, a few women are in that height range, but not many,...and most of them have been known to hit big serves, even if not consistently...which takes us to #2.

Second is coaching. Athlete's are amazing...and to me, especially women when it comes to form and technique. Look at ballet, gymnastics, and any other sport where the technique is highly developed; and you can see the women are amazing like a copy machine to give a great coach what he needs to see. In tennis, Imo we have very few coaches that evolved in serve technique to really drill home that amazing precision ladies are capable of showing. The few we have are not likely working with the ladies or getting the right gals who can really make it count...at least not in the numbers to make a big difference.

These 2 areas work to combine to water down the ladies serving results. Get the right coaches, with the right tall & talented gals and you will see a serving expo imo.

 

[Topspin Shot]

Imo there are 2 main issues in regards to men and womens serves.

First is height, in that most the best male servers are over 6' 1" & strong. Yes, a few women are in that height range, but not many,...and most of them have been known to hit big serves, even if not consistently...which takes us to #2.

Second is coaching. Athlete's are amazing...and to me, especially women when it comes to form and technique. Look at ballet, gymnastics, and any other sport where the technique is highly developed; and you can see the women are amazing like a copy machine to give a great coach what he needs to see. In tennis, Imo we have very few coaches that evolved in serve technique to really drill home that amazing precision ladies are capable of showing. The few we have are not likely working with the ladies or getting the right gals who can really make it count...at least not in the numbers to make a big difference.

These 2 areas work to combine to water down the ladies serving results. Get the right coaches, with the right tall & talented gals and you will see a serving expo imo.

What are the important differences you see? Do you think my observations are on track?

 

[5263]

What are the important differences you see? Do you think my observations are on track?

Imo there is alot to what you are saying, but not sure those are not symptoms rather than the core issues. I do think you are addressing some good issues there though.

Honestly I have to admit I'm not one to put much time into ladies tennis beyond my daughter. She was hitting some pretty big serves, but at 5' 6" the window was pretty small to do damage.

 

[5263]

I'm working with a new girl with good height...5' 9" range...but she could hardly serve and is a entry level HS type player. In our first session of adjustments she surprised me by starting to hit the fence on one bounce.

Focus was contact point and shoulder rock. I did have her swinging more towards the net post as you mentioned.

 

[5263]

the racket ends up coming up the middle of their back. Also as a result of their swing path, they do not get the same degree of ISR as the men do, and their head pulls down prematurely.

I think you are mainly right here and it lends to women pushing or driving the serve to some extent instead of whipping it aggressively like the men.

Better timing for leg extension/racket drop and delayed elbow extension to a better contact point are likely the fix. The alignment you mention might just be the key for some to get it. Do other things right and you will get that better alignment. Prolly some shoulder rock issues involved as well.

 

[sureshs]

Imo there are 2 main issues in regards to men and womens serves.

First is height, in that most the best male servers are over 6' 1" & strong. Yes, a few women are in that height range, but not many,...and most of them have been known to hit big serves, even if not consistently...which takes us to #2.

Second is coaching. Athlete's are amazing...and to me, especially women when it comes to form and technique. Look at ballet, gymnastics, and any other sport where the technique is highly developed; and you can see the women are amazing like a copy machine to give a great coach what he needs to see. In tennis, Imo we have very few coaches that evolved in serve technique to really drill home that amazing precision ladies are capable of showing. The few we have are not likely working with the ladies or getting the right gals who can really make it count...at least not in the numbers to make a big difference.

These 2 areas work to combine to water down the ladies serving results. Get the right coaches, with the right tall & talented gals and you will see a serving expo imo.

Don't know about gymnastics - the size of the gymnast has to be small to compete professionally. I think that makes it quite different.

It also has to do with flexibility in those sports. Flexibility is great, but I don't think it will account for big serving differences compared to other factors.

 

[Ash_Smith]

^^^It is also a very early specialisation "sport"