ATP vs. WTA Serve Mechaincs

[5263]

Don't know about gymnastics - the size of the gymnast has to be small to compete professionally. I think that makes it quite different.

It also has to do with flexibility in those sports. Flexibility is great, but I don't think it will account for big serving differences compared to other factors.

You seem to miss the point. Women who are well trained are amazing in their ability to perform intricate and challenging physical feats...like gymnastics. Yes, the best gymnast tend to be smaller, as that is a benefit in that sport, but has nothing to do with the point that women are incredible in their ability to perform precisely. Gymnastics was just one of many examples of that ability. :???:

 

[5263]

^^^It is also a very early specialisation "sport"

Isn't this about the same for tennis players going to high levels?

 

[Lukhas]

@Topspin Shot: If you're still there, I'd like you to reply to me.

 

[bhupaes]

Visually identical serves for a man and a woman may not lead to similar results. For the same stretch, a man may pack more energy that can be released into RHS, and the release may be slightly later - again, on the average. Players like Serena and Stosur (and probably some others) may be closer to men. To my amateur eyes, the men's serve action looks a little more compact (tighter) than the women's. But at the highest levels, there are more similarities than differences, to be sure!

As to the question of whether males and females should be forced into the same mould for tennis strokes, the answer is not obvious to me. IMO, the invariant fundamentals should be taught the same way to both males and females, while accepting that the final form will have variations between individuals.

 

[Topspin Shot]

I didn't really want to get back here since I just posted the videos and blog as a reference for fuelling discussion, but anyway.

@Topspin Shot: I think that while here, Sharapova, throw her body into the shot, she does not seem to effectively use her body. She gets the idea of the serve, but I feel she tries hard and don't get great results. I think she rotate nearly much as male pros, but that since she did not really rotate her upper body during the trophy pose, the effort isn't very effective. When you can clearly see Federer's chest during the trophy pose, you can't say as much for the Russian, even if she catches up a bit later. She has to push harder on the legs to get the "spring effect" and get higher, over rotate the upper body, and when her upper body is way beyond the zone she serves to, her lower body hasn't rotated nearly as much as Federer... who isn't much more flexible than she is, if that flexible at all. Then, since her lower body hasn't followed during the motion, finding balance is harder when she lands.
Actually it's more a matter of a fix than an actual complete overhaul. She should, because she keeps getting shoulder injuries... and I think that's because she tries so hard on the serve.

Say, that makes me remember Dougherty's emphasis in the body rotation in all the serves he teaches through the use of the "cylinder drill" as he puts it. Actually I think I get his point. It's not that hard to fix a low or close elbow on trophy pose. Nor it is hard to bend the knees more, or to try harder. What's harder is to set up the upper body properly. Because all women pros know how to pitch and know how to serve. But there's that disconnection between upper and lower body. And I don't think it's that easy to fix, even if I pointed out that the average build of a +200kph female server isn't very close to the build of a top player. However, 1,80cm or slightly lower (5'11) and 65 to 70kgs (143 to 154lbs) isn't crazy impressive for most young female pros either.

Discuss.

I think the big difference between Federer and Sharapova's serves is that Federer lines up his body very nicely toward the net post. His lower body is facing the post in his trophy position, and stays facing the post as he initiates his swing. His upper body is coiled a bit in trophy and opens up as he swings to align with his lower body by contact. His lower body doesn't seem to rotate much at all until the end of his motion. He swings in the direction of the post in a manner that would actually cause the ball to go in the direction of the post if his racket face weren't aligned with the target but with the direction of his swing.

Sharapova's body seems a bit more confused, if this makes sense. In trophy, her legs are pointed more to the target, and her upper body isn't turned much. She tries to spin the ball, but her hips open prematurely, and her racket gets dragged to the left. It's an interesting question whether she's trying to carve the ball rather than swing toward the net post, or whether she's trying to swing to the post, but her alignment is off, and this is forcing her racket off line.

A couple extra notes:

1. Federer is representative of the way all ATP pros serve, and Sharapova is representative of the way many WTA pros serve.

2. A point about ball toss. IMO, a good ball toss is aligned with the right shoulder. Many players place their ball toss in line with their left because they want to toss into the court, but this prevents them from swinging in line with the net post. They either have to open their hips prematurely or swing up from the middle rather than the outside of their back. If you want to toss into the court, you have to push your hips forward, so your right shoulder line moves forward.

3. Watch the last point of this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x64WL5tMhKM It's at the five minute mark. The OSU player double faults on match point against the UCLA player, which is very disappointing for him, but the way he missed is a good teaching example. He frames the ball, and as a result, the ball flies in line with his swing path rather than in the direction his strings are facing. Note that the ball sails right over the net post.

 

[sureshs]

can't quote from this app but apart from gymnastics and dancing in which physical activities do women show as much or more skill than men

 

[5263]

can't quote from this app but apart from gymnastics and dancing in which physical activities do women show as much or more skill than men

Still don't get your point. You think ladies can dance but not learn a technique like serve? You think they can dive, sync swim, fast pitch softball, pole vault,and Circus feats, but not learn to serve correctly with good instruction?

 

[Lukhas]

3. Watch the last point of this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x64WL5tMhKM It's at the five minute mark. The OSU player double faults on match point against the UCLA player, which is very disappointing for him, but the way he missed is a good teaching example. He frames the ball, and as a result, the ball flies in line with his swing path rather than in the direction his strings are facing. Note that the ball sails right over the net post.

And at the fifth minute, he became alone...
Sorry, had to do the joke. Seriously, I had to.

About the rest of your post... I think that Sharapova's recurrent shoulder problems come both from her previous injury/ies but most off all, her service motion. I personally still have trouble to get how a 6'2" player, male or female, can DF that much, and be so ineffective on serve. I don't think it's weight related either. It'd be unfair to attack her personally, but like you said, she represents so much the average WTA server it hurts. Now I'll speak my personal mind: while I can understand there is some debate in FH technique, I'm starting to believe that the issue with the serve is much clearer on the WTA tour. Especially after watching the USO: Azarenka mostly lost because of the serve she promised to improve after the previous USO final. However, I think the WTA tour is ruled by "good enough" rather than "best possible". A bit sad, but I don't think we'll see much improvement on service technique for the moment being. EDIT: Or for example Robson, whose serves (and especially nerves on serve) is one of the main things that doesn't allow her to progress beyond what she demonstrated... despite mastering the lefty slice on ad court. I guess I'll join with 5263 here. And it's not a "man vs. woman issue". Purely "technique" related.

 

[5263]

However, I think the WTA tour is ruled by "good enough" rather than "best possible". A bit sad, but I don't think we'll see much improvement on service technique for the moment being. .

Imo you are right on here.

 

[sureshs]

tennis serve maybe the most complex biomechanically across all sports

 

[arche3]

tennis serve maybe the most complex biomechanically across all sports

Possible as in football throw and baseball there is no racket

 

[5263]

tennis serve maybe the most complex biomechanically across all sports

I'm going to suggest that the serve does not even compare to the double-twisting Yurchenko vault imo.

 

[onehandbh]

I think for both ATP and WTA, rec level male and
female, it often comes down to whether they learned
a throwing motion at a young age or not.
At an older age the throwing motion
seems to be a bit harder to learn for
some reason. I've seen plenty of decent
rec players 3.5 - 4.5 that don't have a
efficient serve that uses the proper
kinetic chain sequence well. Oftentimes they also
can't throw a ball very well, either. In many
cases they tend to sort of muscle and arm it more
when trying to hit harder. Or if they've had lessons,
the pieces might look right but they
aren't firing in the right order and they
aren't getting the relaxed whip-like
motion of a throw.

Glad I threw rocks, baseballs and footballs
and all kinds of stuff as a kid.

 

[sureshs]

Possible as in football throw and baseball there is no racket

I'm going to suggest that the serve does not even compare to the double-twisting Yurchenko vault imo.

Both quotes have something in them.

I think there are movements in gymnastics/dancing/ice skating/diving/circus/yoga which are very very difficult and require extreme physical abilities. But in a curious twist, this means that only those who have the genetics for it and combine the genetics with enormous amount of work can be in the sport. As an example, I can serve at half of Roddick's speed or a third of Leed's speed, but I cannot even make the first step in what those other athletes do. In tennis, a lot of boys and girls start out in the game, and find that they can achieve success even without much talent or hard work. At the pro level, WTA players with extremely shaky serves are able to be quite successful. Those in the other difficult sports are the super-specialized athletes who do just that, while tennis requires a broader range of abilities.

Regarding the first quote, I have an unproven gut feeling that doing something which involves external objects like balls is quite different than other activities and requires its own set of skills. The skill required to hit a 140 mph serve could indeed exceed the skills required in many other sports. You got to deal with opposite sets of constraints. The small ball has to be hit in such a way that it neither falls short nor long, is neither too high nor too low, is constrained on the lateral dimension also, the foot should not touch the service line, in doubles the partner should not be hit, and this has to be done for several hours, along with all the other running and hitting. The 140 mph serve requires an intricate balance of spin and speed. More spin to keep it in -> speed is lowered. Hit too hard -> goes long. Put too much side spin -> ball may go out of the sidelines or into the next court.

 

[Topspin Shot]

Two examples of shanked serves. In a shanked serve, the ball will go in the direction the player is swinging.

Stosur: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTYUaj7VgBY
Sharapova: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3iKZOe6zTs

Also, look at this video of Stosur's serve from the top view. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_2TcRH3ipw Notice how her ball toss is in line with the right side of her body. This enables the racket to remain on the hitting side throughout the swing path. Too many players place the toss on the left side, resulting in premature opening of the hips, or a racket drop that comes up from the middle of the back.