Atp vs wta
- Thread starter Mr_Shiver
- Start date
You're actually correct for about 98% of the WTA. However, the top players on the WTA tour have strokes that look almost identical to those of ATP players. The Williams sisters have their own unique style that counts them out, but as a prime example, serve aside, Justine Henin and Roger Federer have nearly identical stroke mechanics. Only difference is that Henin's backhand is quite possibly the best 1HBH backhand in tennis, WTA or ATP. She can pull angles with that wing that are just beyond belief and if necessary, can crack DTL winners at 90 mph (I know this is true because I was watching the match when it happened and they put up the reading on TV). Haas and Gasquet's 1HBH are good, yes, but neither has the consistency of Henin's.
Djokovicfan4life
Legend
Kuznetsova and Stosur come to mind, although I'm not sure if they're exactly the same.
Edit: just checked out Kuzzy's forehand and it looks like she lays her wrist back slightly during the backswing, so perhaps not the full use of the stretch shortening cycle.
Stosur's forehand appears to be "ATP style", as you put it, just with a full western grip.
Last edited:
marosmith
Professional
That's what I heard as well, I think tennisplayer.net
Can you explain the differences, or provide a link to an article that discusses this, I find it very interesting.
Some basic technique differences:
1) Racquet tip straight up during takeback.
2) You'll feel your upper pecs, medial shoulder, triceps, and pinkie-side of forearm more engaged in the swing.
3) Hitting arm is "high" in position, and non-hitting arm is "low"
4) You point your left fingers at the ball during the takeback.
5) You finish over the shoulder (though you could use a lower WW-style finish.)
7) Neutral stance is the optimal position for a crosscourt shot, and you get most power when you stride through like a BH, pushing off the balls of your foot.
8) Per same grip, contact point is higher and more in.
Groundstroke quality:
1) Everything being ideal, you can generate more raw power with the WTA than the ATP stroke.
2) When you start getting moved around laterally, your power production goes down. Your leverage is weakest during an open stance.
3) More pace, less spin (though a WW-style finish may even this out more.)
4) May end up screaming like a pig in heat.
Note that I said top players, not necessarily top ranked
marosmith
Professional
Any good videos that would demonstrate this, I am trying real hard to get a visual lol.
thebuffman
Professional
slightly confused here as i thought the non-hitting arm pointed towards the right side fence when preparing to hit the right handed forehand? reaching toward the fence instead of out toward the ball turns the torso naturally which in turn gets the racquet back for optimal load before its loop into the ball.
For the ATP style, yes. (Though technically for men, it's more like the hand is perpendicular with the line of your shot, and your hand moves forward still square to that line of shot.)
But not the WTA-style. In the WTA-style, your non-hitting arm will often be below shoulder level and you'll be pointing at the ball more or less with the thumb.
thebuffman
Professional
okay dude...u are beginning to scare me. HOW do you know all this stuff! LOL! its a downright pleasure to know catz like you tricky.
It goes into the "push" vs. "pull" thing, but since most people aren't interested in hitting like a girl, we don't usually talk about it.
I'll say this though. The "point thumb at ball/line of shot" works well with the 1H BH too. During the beginning of the takeback, point your left thumb at the general direction where you want the ball to go.
I'll say this though. The "point thumb at ball/line of shot" works well with the 1H BH too. During the beginning of the takeback, point your left thumb at the general direction where you want the ball to go.
Pull vs Push power
Could you elaborate on this ?
I think the "pull" technique has far more potential power than the "push" technique because of the power of the bicep curl motion.
Don't the women push and the men pull ?
Could you elaborate on this ?
I think the "pull" technique has far more potential power than the "push" technique because of the power of the bicep curl motion.
Don't the women push and the men pull ?
prattle128
Semi-Pro
One of the things that I've noticed is that all of them (them being the women) use rather large take-backs. If you look at someone like Federer or Nadal, you'll notice that the take-back is rather compact- especially when compared to the women.
Ana Ivanovic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXgJCN6KWT0
Roger Federer/Rafa Nadal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Rl0fwXTrr8&feature=player_embedded
Ana Ivanovic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXgJCN6KWT0
Roger Federer/Rafa Nadal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Rl0fwXTrr8&feature=player_embedded
But, it's bicep flexing vs. tricep extending (and we're presuming WW-style finishes in both cases.) Also, the internal rotation of the swing recruits larger muscle groups in the "push" style vs. the "pull" style. However, the pronators associated with the "push"-style are not as strong as associated with the "pull"-style, which is why the wiping action will still be better with the "pull" style. Considering how hard women hit today, imagine a man using that same style to hit flat shots. Having said that, reigning in those shots is another issue. Plus, once you're forced into an open stance, you lose a lot of that power. Whereas in the "pull"-style, the open stance is ideal placement for loading.
For swing and throwing movements, you basically have two different sets of kinetic chains that you can use. You can call them "push" (balls of feet, quads, hip flexors, obliques, upper pecs, medial delt, triceps, pinkie-side of forearm) and "pull" (heels, hamstrings, buttocks, abs, pecs, anterior delts, thumb-side of forearm.) I like "linear" and "rotational." Service technique and BH technique are "push", which is why the stances are generally not open. But, if you know how the kinetic chains work, you could execute a open-stanced 1H BH using a "pull"-style. It would look strange, because when using one or the other, body positioning and racquet placement end up getting tweaked.
drive your car, hit another car, you see you have a moderate damage, now hit a 8 wheel drive, your car is gone. That's the principle of 2/3 of push stroke concept. behind the string bed we have a heavy mass: body and arm rotate forward as ONE UNIT.
Pull stroke is quite different: arm trail shoulder, at near contact, it snap up due to kinetic chain and create a collision barely rely on speed of you racket.
That explain to you who has more potential of power.
Most WTA hit push stroke, except Hennin, that also explain to you why push stoke have more power, because women need more of it than men. ATP need more spin, and that with the snap up of their forearm, they have plenty.
Push stroke, do to the heavy mass behind the string bed, the ball is compress more, since it is compress more it will bounce out more, and having more control.
Having explain to you, you have your right to try it on the court next time to see the truth. I been taunted, humiliated when i express my idea on this forum by uneducated thugs. but that not something that i back down to state my belief.
Last edited:
very true, most people who hit push stroke scream: that is a secret of Kung fu, you inhale, hold, hit then exhale, it's the exhale create the scream, fighter use this technique to make them stronger, and in particular, stiffer. That what require you to make yourseft become a 8 wheel drive behind the string bed.
drakulie
Talk Tennis Guru
What I noticed this week at the Sony Miami, while filming several players at high speed is that women have a more parallel swing path to the ground, towards contact. As a result, they hit very flat. Hantuchova, in particular hits so flat, her shots hardly produce any revolutions on the ball what-so-ever compared to others I saw/flimed. They simply don't brush up on the ball as much as the men.
Video of Gonzo at 300 and 600 frames per second:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAeMcNXoIKs
I'll have more videos posted throughout this week including Hantuchova, Azarenka, Wozniacki, Henin, Williams, etc.
Video of Gonzo at 300 and 600 frames per second:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAeMcNXoIKs
I'll have more videos posted throughout this week including Hantuchova, Azarenka, Wozniacki, Henin, Williams, etc.
very true, push stroke hit with simply a body rotation, at contact, hand will push out to press on the ball for longer contact time. this is a naural push. will be out not up.
Pull stroke not, due to their natural snap up of the forearm, their natural path will be up. therefore it create more spin.
you really do not need to, Push stroke is in very common now, most junior have this, a slow motion of Del Potro or Sam Querry at fuzzyyellowballs.com will do fine.
Last edited:
true that's the signature of Push stroke (but not necessary) Push stroke contact on the side, you want the time consumming is shorter, and pointing racket at the sky is one way to make it short
Pull stroke want your racket to be late, therefore pointing the racket tip to the net will make it late.
Once you have a feel of rotating your body and your arm as one unit, you really do not need to, elbow just clip to your body when it draw a C and STAY THERE, you will have one unit rotation all the time.
drakulie
Talk Tennis Guru
As promised, here is a Video of Hantuchova recorded at 300 Frames Per Second.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3koV2YI2-gc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3koV2YI2-gc
It do with the non-hitting arm. This aspect is flipped with the WTA stroke. In order to create "room" for your stroke, you want the non-hitting arm well below the hitting arm. If you want more down-to-up, you'd want your non-hitting arm to be very low, perhaps even down to the abdominal level. Yes, the previous sentence makes no sense if you're executing an ATP-style stroke.
Between Eastern and strong-semis (for better spin.) In a WTA-stroke, you have no leverage issues hitting a ball above the shoulder with an Eastern grip. Strike zone is very generous. Somebody choose a more extreme grip is to get better spin, whereas often on the ATP side, the grip choice is more influenced by your preferred strike zone.
Both are pull. Vast majority of men have "pull", and virtually every popular model FH is "pull."
drakulie
Talk Tennis Guru
As I said, look at the stroke difference between Fed and Henin. There is next to none.
In drak's above clips, Hantuchova is hitting a typical WTA-style ("push") FH. Now, you could make the argument that her non-hitting arm aims toward the right side fence and resembles the male style, rather than her fingers pointing straight at the ball or line of shot. However, you'll notice that her non-hitting arm is extremely bent during the takeback, and that she's hitting from an open stance. If you think about your own FH and imagine trying to hit from a closed stance, you'll notice that your non-hitting arm also gets severely bent. That is one tell that, for that groundstroke style, you're not in the optimal stance for the shot. For a "push" FH, the open stance is the weakest position and is best used when hitting DTL or inside-out. Now, in terms of her lack of swing plane or wiping action, it's again a reflection of her almost shoulder-high non-hitting arm position, which is constricting for a push-style stroke. If you think about your own FH and imagine setting your non-hitting arm at, say, abdominal level, you'll notice that your swing turns completely flat regardless of how much wristiness you try to add.
As for Henin . . . yeah, that's an ATP-style stroke. And, actually, pvaudio's assessment is spot on. Henin is NOW trying to hit like Federer (albeit with a strong SW grip.) She's using a pronated takeback (which in a generation is going to be all-the-rage with the kids) If she tweaked her forward swing to be more "between-and-across", well she would literally be the female Federer.
As for Henin . . . yeah, that's an ATP-style stroke. And, actually, pvaudio's assessment is spot on. Henin is NOW trying to hit like Federer (albeit with a strong SW grip.) She's using a pronated takeback (which in a generation is going to be all-the-rage with the kids) If she tweaked her forward swing to be more "between-and-across", well she would literally be the female Federer.
thebuffman
Professional
what was interesting to me is how her elbow never locked. i've always heard people preach to us rookies "lock the arm...full extension" and then i see pros do something completely different. very very interesting.
Djokovicfan4life
Legend
I'm pretty sure I use the pronated takeback that Tricky is referring to. I used to take the racket back with a more extreme bend in the elbow (Sampras, Roddick) and now I only bend it slightly. I was shadowing my swing today and my racket face points behind me and toward the ground as I lower it into the hitting zone. Although I use a SW grip, so not as much pronation required during the takeback.
many people confused about the call name: physicly, all stroke have a certain portion of physically pull, and certain physically push, one young coach, in his DVD "Reload" have state that everything that you do behind your chest plane is a pull, everything that you do after that plan is push. He is correct, physicly.
the PULL and PUSH STROKE name is not actually a physically pull and push, it just represent 2 different succesfull mechanic that base on PULL: Kinetic energy. PUSH: Body mass behind
the sting bed and prolonge dwell time.
Then why people call a PULL: in his tape "Killer forehand" Nick B, describe his "PULL out of the slot" concept: have some one with 2 hand make a slot to contain your racket face, now pull the racket out the slot somehow that your racket do not hit someone hands, then you get the Killer forehand. The Pull name start from there. It basicly just a mechanic to exercise the Kinetic Chain.
Then why does people call the PUSH: in Oscar book, he repeately say: Find the ball and PUSH it. that where the name PUSH started. His PUSH vocabulary seem like very simple but a whole concept behind it: find the ball: no speed, push the ball: start to have speed. It means you accelerate racket when contact occurs. Tennis stroke to him, not using speed, but using a prolonge contact time. You may not like him, but try my example to see: hit a pile of leaves with a broom, see how it goes, then sweep that with a broom, you surprised the latter one push the leaves a whole lot farther: You do not hit the ball, you sweep the ball: sweep means you acceletate during contact. it give more dweel time. and the heavy, stiff mass behind the string bed just do that.
I thank you all to give me the opportunity to explain my fruit of thinking. feel free to ask, all you need is just with one purpose: LEARNING.
not to disrespect, you are using a beginner stroke, relax, and whip. Nadal do more than that, he pull the racket up, shoulder goes first, arm trail hehind, near contact, shoulder slow down, arm will snap up and create more speed. why is the from behind arm can increase racket speed: Kinetic Energy: drive your car, hit the brake, all of sudden, you feel like you been push forward by an unkown force, That Kinetic Energy it make you speed up without any intention or effort.
drakulie
Talk Tennis Guru
in response to post # 38:
^^^OK, but they all do what you are describing (ATP/WTA). They all "pull" and "push".
The biggest difference is the angle of attack on the ball. In the WTA you get more of a straight trajectory towards impact than you do with the ATP.
one more thing, Oscar didn't come up with the "Push" technique or definition/terminology.
^^^OK, but they all do what you are describing (ATP/WTA). They all "pull" and "push".
The biggest difference is the angle of attack on the ball. In the WTA you get more of a straight trajectory towards impact than you do with the ATP.
one more thing, Oscar didn't come up with the "Push" technique or definition/terminology.
Last edited:
She hit the ball with a PUSH stroke, Push stroke hit the ball with body, after the ball was hit, arm unlock and push out Straight to press on the ball create more dwell time.
Pull stroke is different, it basicly hit with your arm, with the help of Kinetic Energy, there is 2 things happened when you unlock:
1-the mass behind you racket is just you hand, we need more than that to have eough speed
2-Your forearm will freely rotate., when it rotates, racket head face will change. This bacisly is a WHIP stroke. Speed by whippy, loosy and relax mechanic.
Djokovicfan4life
Legend
*Waits for Teachestennis to arrive with blocks upon blocks of text"
true, they are all pull and push physicly, but PUSH and PULL stroke concept name call is not what we describe as pull and push physcily.
True, Oscar do not come up with the name. or even with the clear technique. i'm not sure that we should give him credit of it, but just the start on the PUSH stroke concept. Actually, it come complete with Doug King in his "The hand have it" . there is instruction and
how to do it at tennisone.com about 10 years ago, i have a copy of it. No body really pay attension of what he say. Until the succes of Williams Sister.
I thik i did explain the angle, it come natural due to centrifuge force at contact point: on you side with PUSH and far out with PULL
Dont think anyone mentioned that the women are for the most part quite a bit shorter than the men.....the result is their swing path will generally be flatter. an analogy would be the golf swing..shorter golfers tend to <naturally> swing on a flatter plane and taller players <naturally> more upright...
Additionally, just because the trajectory is flatter, that doesnt mean the ball isnt spinning because it is..often violently so.
Since lots of folks like to use fed as an example.....his groundstrokes with little net clearance are quite often violently spinning w. topspin.....the shot just has lesser arc
I dont use the 'brush' cue much when i teach...it quite often makes peoples' already contrived attempts at creating more topspin even more unnatural and contrived. i usually teach a more hitting thru concept from the backcourt..that usually produces a more penetrating ball..and more importantly a deeper ball
Mojo
Additionally, just because the trajectory is flatter, that doesnt mean the ball isnt spinning because it is..often violently so.
Since lots of folks like to use fed as an example.....his groundstrokes with little net clearance are quite often violently spinning w. topspin.....the shot just has lesser arc
I dont use the 'brush' cue much when i teach...it quite often makes peoples' already contrived attempts at creating more topspin even more unnatural and contrived. i usually teach a more hitting thru concept from the backcourt..that usually produces a more penetrating ball..and more importantly a deeper ball
Mojo
In terms of the relative flatness of the swing, that's again due to the non-hitting arm. In the WTA-style, a higher non-hitting arm constricts the swing in the same way a lower non-hitting arm would constrict the swing in the ATP-style. It's counterintuitive to think of that way, but that's basically the explanation.
Supinated takeback: Arm rotates on its axis clockwise through the takeback. If given enough time, the face closes at some point and then opens up prior to the forward swing. In an ATP stroke, bend of the elbow is fairly static. In a WTA stroke, the arm starts to lengthen in the takeback. This is the most popular style.
Pronated takeback: Arm rotates on its axis counterclockwise through the takeback. Due to this, the racquet face stays closed through the entire takeback. In an ATP stroke, the arm lengthens. In a WTA stroke, the bend of the elbow would remain the same.
I think Nadal, like Federer, had a pronated takeback. Then the past 2 seasons, he switched to a supinated takeback.
Just as a summary. There's two ways to "pat the dog."
Supinated takeback: Arm rotates on its axis clockwise through the takeback. If given enough time, the face closes at some point and then opens up prior to the forward swing. In an ATP stroke, bend of the elbow is fairly static. In a WTA stroke, the arm starts to lengthen in the takeback. This is the most popular style.
Pronated takeback: Arm rotates on its axis counterclockwise through the takeback. Due to this, the racquet face stays closed through the entire takeback. In an ATP stroke, the arm lengthens. In a WTA stroke, the bend of the elbow would remain the same.
I think Nadal, like Federer, had a pronated takeback. Then the past 2 seasons, he switched to a supinated takeback.
thanks, i wait, but i have to remind you all that i will not answer if other than one purpose: learning, and respect each other is the key point of prolonged discussion.
Takeaway really has very little to do w. the resultant shot. It really doesnt matter much compared to what the racquet is doing in the impact zone and beyond. there are many many >acceptable ways to get into a racquet ready position and into the hitting slot...it;s more a personal preference....many of these arent even a result of what the arm is doing....they are more about what the shoulder, torso, legs, etc are doing...the arm movement is the end result not what instigates the stuff. ie; it;s pretty hard to turn your shoulders w.o the racquet being taken back.
If things are going to get very technical, they should be technical w. the important stuff....people are generally too conscious of what their arms/wrists (smaller muscles/tendons) are doing and they should be more aware of what the larger muscles are doing. do that right and the arm/wrist stuff kind of takes care of itself...ditto for on the serve
soyizgood
G.O.A.T.
I noticed that about many of the WTA players too, those long takebacks. I sometimes think a shorter takeback would cut down on those forehand UEs that can plague the likes of Safina, Azarenka, Ivanovic, and Kuznetsova for starters. Yet, you see quite a few of the top players going closer to western on their forehands. Despite that, most WTA players hit with little margin off their forehands. Even a girl with lots of margin like Kuznetsova still can't land the ball in when she's tense.
Last edited:
Which is exactly why she's been so successful. Not because she hits like a man, as if men's technique is "proper", but because shes one of the few players on tour who can actually hit strokes fluidly enough that endurance is never an issue. Federer doesn't have to grind out points like Nadal does because his strokes are just simple and effective. For Henin, the same applies, and especially on her backhand which Federer should probably be taking notes from, that effortlessness allows her to have the most fluid and efficient 1HBH active in the game.
I posted the Williams sisters as an exception because they have their own unique style which is all power, all the time. Funny thing is, the ball seems to go in, all the time. :-o
