Backhand and forehand winners (1959-2008)

[pc1]

I think you're right, certainly a lot of factors come into it. How often your opponent is at net must be a huge factor; so I've got some data on how many of those winners were passes, but that data is hard to come by. Usually we have to count it ourselves.

Another factor is how many times the net-rusher approaches to a particular side.

Certainly surface is a huge factor, and technology.

And as you mentioned, a comparison against the errors is another important factor. But that one, with the published stats, is a problem because immediately you have to consider the method of counting unforced errors. Who was the statistician, how did s/he count, etc. That would get especially tricky comparing UE stats across eras; that's a huge problem. Sometimes I see comparisons where one players in one decade "had" X number of UE's, while another in this decade "had" another number. But there's nothing objective about UE's. Rather than saying, "he had" a certain number, it's probably more accurate to say, "he was given" a certain number.

At least winners are objective, when we count them ourselves; and when I include published stats I try to stay away from numbers that for one reason or another look inflated (ie, with lots of judgment calls in the winner column).

I think of these charts as giving a snapshot of what some famous players have done with winners; nothing more or less. From there I think it's possible to say this or that about the numbers, and to start debates. But I think it's going to be difficult to find anything conclusive in these numbers.

Agree with everything you've wrote. I like your charts for winners in this thread. It's very interesting and of course informative.

 

[krosero]

Agree with everything you've wrote. I like your charts for winners in this thread. It's very interesting and of course informative.

Glad you enjoy them. If you ever come across any stats, please drop them in here.

 

[krosero]

Here's one in my notes: Evert had 16 BH winners over 20 games, 1988 AO sf vs. Navratilova (ESPN). That's a rate of 0.8. It would be No. 1 on the chart.

I'm sure a lot of those were passes.

They had Martina at 10 "service winners" just before the end, I wonder what that term meant (a full count of return errors or just judgment calls).

 

[krosero]

1989 AO, Lendl-Mac, 7-6, 6-2, 7-6

"Lendl had 25 backhand winners, many of them passing shots, all of them hit with devastating power. McEnroe, who had 2 backhand winners, threw up his hands after Lendl finally sent a backhand passing shot wide in the third set" (LA Times).

That would be right behind Evert and Agassi on the chart.

 

[BTURNER]

when is ladies day in this thread?

 

[krosero]

We were talking upthread about how many BH winners Federer had against Blake at the '06 Masters Cup (6-0, 6-3, 6-4). ESPN gave him 17, which I also found in a few articles. I've done my own stats and counted 18, including 7 passes.

And those were his only passes -- all from the BH side. Just an illustration of how a stat like this can show Federer's BH in fine form, but no one would conclude that his BH was better than his FH. The BH just happened to be where Blake was going.

Blake, by my count, had no passes.

Federer clean winners - 6 FH, 18 BH, 2 FHV, 1 BHV, 1 OV.
Blake's - 4 FH, 5 BH, 2 FHV, 1 BHV.

I gave Federer 11 aces, 1 df and 20 other unreturned serves (including 3 that I judged service winners).
Blake - 4 aces, 2 df's and 14 other unreturned serves (including 2 sw's).

ESPN had Federer serving at 70% for the whole match; the ATP has only 68%.

 

[pc1]

We were talking upthread about how many BH winners Federer had against Blake at the '06 Masters Cup (6-0, 6-3, 6-4). ESPN gave him 17, which I also found in a few articles. I've done my own stats and counted 18, including 7 passes.

And those were his only passes -- all from the BH side. Just an illustration of how a stat like this can show Federer's BH in fine form, but no one would conclude that his BH was better than his FH. The BH just happened to be where Blake was going.

Blake, by my count, had no passes.

Federer clean winners - 6 FH, 18 BH, 2 FHV, 1 BHV, 1 OV.
Blake's - 4 FH, 5 BH, 2 FHV, 1 BHV.

I gave Federer 11 aces, 1 df and 20 other unreturned serves (including 3 that I judged service winners).
Blake - 4 aces, 2 df's and 14 other unreturned serves (including 2 sw's).

ESPN had Federer serving at 70% for the whole match; the ATP has only 68%.

That's an amazing stat. I would tend to think that it's very rare that Federer's backhand winners far outnumber his forehand winners. I don't remember the match but Blake is very fast and to hit that many winners against him from the backhand side is very impressive.

 

[krosero]

Incidentally there were more discrepancies between ESPN and the ATP the following year, also in Shanghai.

In the round-robin ESPN had Federer serving at 85% against Roddick; the ATP has 82%.

In the semis, ESPN had Federer at 83% and Nadal at 67%. The ATP put them at 81% and 71% respectively.

 

[krosero]

when is ladies day in this thread?

I'll try and put in more of their stats -- if I find them.

 

[pc1]

Incidentally there were more discrepancies between ESPN and the ATP the following year, also in Shanghai.

In the round-robin ESPN had Federer serving at 85% against Roddick; the ATP has 82%.

In the semis, ESPN had Federer at 83% and Nadal at 67%. The ATP put them at 81% and 71% respectively.

That type of stuff is very annoying. How hard can it be to keep an accurate serving percentage? They rarely do this in other professional sports like baseball or American Football.

In baseball they even correct stats years after the fact. I know batting averages are changed on occasion when they find human error like the stat guy counting one game twice for the batter etc.

 

[krosero]

That's an amazing stat. I would tend to think that it's very rare that Federer's backhand winners far outnumber his forehand winners. I don't remember the match but Blake is very fast and to hit that many winners against him from the backhand side is very impressive.

I would agree it must be rare.

 

[krosero]

That type of stuff is very annoying. How hard can it be to keep an accurate serving percentage? They rarely do this in other professional sports like baseball or American Football.

In baseball they even correct stats years after the fact. I know batting averages are changed on occasion when they find human error like the stat guy counting one game twice for the batter etc.

I know, tell me about it. Service percentages are almost the only objective stats in tennis, you'd think at least in those there should be no disagreements.

Ongoing corrections, now that is something I'd love to see. But there is no central authority; it's only you and me and any other amateur or volunteer who does stats. So if some sources self-corrected their stats, you can imagine what would happen. The correction would only appear in one source. And that's better than nothing, but the discrepancies (and confusion) would continue.

 

[krosero]

New York Times, Feb. 1992:

Navratilova, in the words of her defeated opponent, Jana Novotna, "made big history" this afternoon in Chicago with a tremulous 7-6 (7-4), 4-6, 7-5 victory that brought her the 158th title of her career, breaking a record she had shared with Chris Evert. No other tennis player, male or female, has accumulated so many victories.

.... "Jana deserved to win, and I know she's going to beat me one of these days: I just hope I'm not around when it happens," joked Navratilova, who said Novotna, with her 10 aces and 19 backhand winners, was the more accurate serve-and-volley technician this afternoon. "The way Jana played, I was always out there scrambling on my knees."

A Game of Breaks

The match contained 14 service breaks, 7 for each player, but the last two, both at Novotna's expense, were the ones that determined the outcome of this 2-hour-22-minute test of nerve between rivals who share little beyond their homeland and hyperactive emotions.

"I never had Martina as an idol," said Novotna. "Suddenly in the last games there are two bad calls; it's difficult to control yourself after working for two and a half hours. But I'm still happy with the way I played: I was the one who was pushing her to the limit."

Navratilova saved her boldest moves for a storybook ending.

After holding for 4-5 in the final set, Navratilova survived two match points: A powerful backhand service return down the line, a shot Navratilova said has only lately "clicked" into her repertory, saved the first, and Novotna lost the second by dumping a backhand volley into the net. Pressed by Navratilova's passing shots off both sides, Novotna double-faulted at her third break point to even the set at 5-5.

 

[piece]

I think Federer had 28 forehand winners when he beat Hanescu 6-2 6-3 6-2.

I think you're right. I found a source that backs you up http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601079&sid=apprQ4Ob39lA

This would top this list for the forehand side then with a ratio of 1.12

 

[krosero]

I think you're right. I found a source that backs you up http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601079&sid=apprQ4Ob39lA

This would top this list for the forehand side then with a ratio of 1.12

I think the source I found was a different one, but it was the same number -- 28 forehand winners.

At some point I'll update these charts. Agassi-Eltingh is no longer #1 on the FH chart, not even in the top ten anymore. Federer-Hanescu is #2, and Graf at #1 in the 1996 RG final.

 

[Waspsting]

Right now Graf has the highest FH rate: 49 winners in 40 games, 1996 RG final (per a published count)….Federer-Hanescu is #2 (with a ratio of 1.12)

Got a new highest, shading Graf's reported 49/40 @ 1.225

Djokovic with 19 in 15 games @ 1.267

In taking stats, I categorize FH1/2Vs played at net as distinct from FH or FHV. Djoko has 1 such winner + 18 normal FHs

Don't think anyone else does this and FH1/2V I've marked is technically a FH to put him just over

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/match-stats-report-djokovic-vs-nadal-doha-final-2016.661677/

 

[BorgCash]

Definitely, I'd esp. like to see your Becker-Lendl stats. I'm finishing up a list of all our data; the list was actually not as simple to compile as I thought. It's almost ready to post, but if you need more time to post full threads of your stats, all I need for the list is clean winners and aces.

Still missing these W (76, 78, 82-83, 85-86, 88-89) and USO (78, 80-81, 84-85). If you have stats for '78 W I'd also like to see those.

For a lot those matches I haven't posted, I've been wondering whether I should go back and at least get the service percentages. It kind of depends on how much time I can find. If I can't find the time, I'll just post the winners, at least to explain a lot of the data in the big list.

i miss '87 W