Bad Line Calls

[halbrikj]

It's amazing to me how many players make bad calls, i.e. incorrectly call their opponents' in ball "out." And if your opponents are not infrequently questioning your calls, or giving the line a prolonged look, chances are you're one of the culprits.

What bothers me, is that regardless of the sharpness of one's eyesight, there is absolutely no reason to make a bad line call, i.e:

1) If you do not see space between the line and the ball, then you cannot be sure that the ball was out;

2) if you are not sure the ball was out, play the ball, or if out of reach, say "too good."

Thinking that the ball "looked out," is not sufficient grounds to make an out call, because...it might've been in.

Tennis is supposed to be a "gentleman's game." If you "think" the ball was out, but you're not sure, give the bene of the doubt to your opponent. Better to be known as an honest loser than a cheating winner.

 

[dizzlmcwizzl]

hmmm ... how curious.

1st, there is only one player on here that is going to admit to purposefully making bad line calls ... defensivetennis, and he proudly states the fact.

2nd, I suspect the responses you will get will overwhelmingly state ... "I am very generous in my line calls but the people I play against are awful ... " this is how it goes around here.

3rd, I have played a lot of folks I meet for the first time in a league setting. the overwhelming majority are good folks that make fair calls. In the grand scheme of things I would truthfully say I am the beneficiary of poor calls that go my way than more often than I am the victim of bad calls against me.

Finally, I feel like the easy way to know if you are a fair line caller is the frequency you get peppered with "are you sures?". If you get 1 a month you are probably ok ... if you get 1 per game you have a problem.

 

[gameboy]

Like there isn't enough threads about this topic???

 

[Say Chi Sin Lo]

Where's DefensiveTennis? We need his cheater's mentality to weigh in on this.

 

[beernutz]

I think the people I play overwhelmingly make fair line calls. There are a few outliers which I remember well but overall I think people try to be as fair as they can.

 

[halbrikj]

You're right, the majority are good and make fair calls. I actually wrote this thread still sweaty from a match where I was getting jobbed.

For the record, in 20 plus years of playing, I can recall only 2 occasions where my opponent questioned my call, and both were on my baseline where they had no way of seeing. Just follow the "space between" rule and it's a non-issue.

 

[racertempo]

I subscribe to what the OP said about seeing the whole line, if I think I see the whole line on hard courts then it is out 100% in my book. I will not call it out otherwise, but I have lots of people question me when I know I saw the whole line. A lot of that call can be different based on where you are standing and an angle that you might have that your opponent might now have.

The toughest call is when you are behind your own baseline 4-6 feet getting ready to hit a ground stroke and call a ball out that is very very close. You opponent actually has a better angle to see if the ball was in or out (if he is paying attention), but it angers me how many of those close balls are called out when I saw they were in.

 

[tennis4josh]

In the grand scheme of things I would truthfully say I am the beneficiary of poor calls that go my way than more often than I am the victim of bad calls against me.

This has been my experience too. Every season there is probably like 1 match where line calls become an issue.

-Josh

 

[nootles]

This is a gentleman's game after all, so while we are giving our opponents the benefit of the doubt, why not extend the courtesy of trusting their calls as well. Most of the time, the opponent has a better view angle on the landing than we do. It is especially hard to judge balls close to the baseline. Unless the opponent is blatantly cheating, I think it's better to trust the integrity of the opponent and focus on playing.

 

[Maximagq]

Where's DefensiveTennis? We need his cheater's mentality to weigh in on this.

The Ban Hammer hit him too hard.

 

[Say Chi Sin Lo]

The Ban Hammer hit him too hard.

Don't worry, something tells me we haven't seen the last of him.

 

[gambitt]

I had a bad one last weekend where my opponent called a double bounce on my side and stopped play. It wasn't even close. I think he got confused with the sound of my racket touching the ground but it's not his call to make. I didn't argue since I like playing with him and it wasn't a league match, but I would claiming the point if someone tried that in a competitive match.

I don't know why people can't understand the rules - if it's on my side then it's my call.

 

[nhat8121]

If the ball is out, I still call it in. Gotta show them that disrespect, they never see it coming. Mind games, baby.

 

[blakesq]

Halbrikj, how do you know the calls were "bad"? are you depending on your own eyesight?

It's amazing to me how many players make bad calls, i.e. incorrectly call their opponents' in ball "out." And if your opponents are not infrequently questioning your calls, or giving the line a prolonged look, chances are you're one of the culprits.

What bothers me, is that regardless of the sharpness of one's eyesight, there is absolutely no reason to make a bad line call, i.e:

1) If you do not see space between the line and the ball, then you cannot be sure that the ball was out;

2) if you are not sure the ball was out, play the ball, or if out of reach, say "too good."

Thinking that the ball "looked out," is not sufficient grounds to make an out call, because...it might've been in.

Tennis is supposed to be a "gentleman's game." If you "think" the ball was out, but you're not sure, give the bene of the doubt to your opponent. Better to be known as an honest loser than a cheating winner.

 

[sureshs]

Where's DefensiveTennis? We need his cheater's mentality to weigh in on this.

He was banned

 

[sureshs]

Thinking that the ball "looked out," is not sufficient grounds to make an out call, because...it might've been in.

Our perception is based on eyesight and processing by the brain. So thinking that the ball looked out is exactly correct. You look at the ball with your eyes but it is your brain that processes the information and makes a decision.

It is sufficient grounds to make an out call.

 

[gmatheis]

Our perception is based on eyesight and processing by the brain. So thinking that the ball looked out is exactly correct. You look at the ball with your eyes but it is your brain that processes the information and makes a decision.

It is sufficient grounds to make an out call.

While technically correct, you know what the rule means and this type of answer does not help.

You are supposed to be 100% sure that the ball is out in order to call it out. If you have doubt as to a ball being out, even if you are 90% sure it was out, you are supposed to play it.

SO when someone says "I think that was out" what they are really conveying is that they have doubt about the call and the ball should be considered good.

Even the code says that playing this way will result in playing many "out" balls but the game is better that way.

 

[TangentZ]

It goes both ways.

If you expect other people to trust your call, then you are also expected to trust their call.

The "good" calls that you made, may have been "bad" calls in your opponents' eyes, vice versa.

 

[johndagolfer]

I think the biggest thing you have to realize before calling people cheaters is that everyone's perceptions are different.

Look at line judges on the pro tour. According to what I am finding online 30% of hawkeye challenges result in overturns. And that is just based on challenged calls so the number should be higher. These are lines persons whose sole responsibility is to call the line and they still get it wrong.

It is because of this that it's not worth calling your opponents cheaters just because their perception differs from yours.

 

[Cindysphinx]

He was banned

Wow. You get banned for cheating on line calls?

: shiver :

 

[arche3]

He was banned

He must of signed on from a ip address the mods recognized as banned. He wasnt really causing trouble last few days.

 

[tennis_ocd]

Look at line judges on the pro tour. According to what I am finding online 30% of hawkeye challenges result in overturns. And that is just based on challenged calls so the number should be higher. These are lines persons whose sole responsibility is to call the line and they still get it wrong.

Applicable to this discussion, if they played every close ball as IN they'd be right 100% of the time. Rec players are not pro line judges; the criterion is completely different.

 

[dman72]

My league is a mixture..one or 2 guys who call everything in, even balls 6 inches out, most of the guys who are generous on side lines but overly tight to cheap on deep balls and serves (balls they can't possibly see out because of the angle their viewing) but I don't think intentionally cheat, and then 1 or 2 outright cheaters who I try to avoid playing. And if I do play them, I nip it in the bud on the first bad call.

One guy, who is also the worst player in my league, calls balls that are a foot inside the line out, and then gives you gruff when you call his serve that's 6 inches deep out. He's a big guy who thinks he can intimidate people, but he's a bad tennis player. I refuse to let him think for a second he can intimidate me, and it's led to some heated discussions.

The person who runs the league knows all the guys don't like playing him, but they need the money. He was playing on the court next to me my last match, and I saw him call a ball 6 inches inside the baseline out on a lob his opponent hit. Clear as day.

And that doesn't even bring into account the rampant foot faulting.

 

[dman72]

Applicable to this discussion, if they played every close ball as IN they'd be right 100% of the time. Rec players are not pro line judges; the criterion is completely different.

That's why the rule is supposed to be when in doubt, call it "in" when you don't have an official.

In most league and USTA play, the opposite is true.

 

[johndagolfer]

Applicable to this discussion, if they played every close ball as IN they'd be right 100% of the time. Rec players are not pro line judges; the criterion is completely different.

the point I am trying to make is that these are professional lines people and they make mistakes 30%+ of disputed calls. Just because a ball might look in to the person hitting the ball, it shouldn't be automatically assumed that the receiver saw the ball in and is trying to cheat.

 

[gameboy]

That's why the rule is supposed to be when in doubt, call it "in" when you don't have an official.

In most league and USTA play, the opposite is true.

What league are you talking about? I never have any issue with people calling lines in my USTA matches.

 

[dcdoorknob]

That's why the rule is supposed to be when in doubt, call it "in" when you don't have an official.

In most league and USTA play, the opposite is true.

Except that it isn't, at least in most league USTA matches I've played.

 

[Mr.Lob]

I had a bad one last weekend where my opponent called a double bounce on my side and stopped play. It wasn't even close. I think he got confused with the sound of my racket touching the ground but it's not his call to make. I didn't argue since I like playing with him and it wasn't a league match, but I would claiming the point if someone tried that in a competitive match.

I don't know why people can't understand the rules - if it's on my side then it's my call.

Is your opponent that much of a crybaby that you couldn't tell him the ball only bounced once, so it's your point?

 

[Nostradamus]

It's amazing to me how many players make bad calls, i.e. incorrectly call their opponents' in ball "out." And if your opponents are not infrequently questioning your calls, or giving the line a prolonged look, chances are you're one of the culprits.

What bothers me, is that regardless of the sharpness of one's eyesight, there is absolutely no reason to make a bad line call, i.e:

1) If you do not see space between the line and the ball, then you cannot be sure that the ball was out;

2) if you are not sure the ball was out, play the ball, or if out of reach, say "too good."

Thinking that the ball "looked out," is not sufficient grounds to make an out call, because...it might've been in.

Tennis is supposed to be a "gentleman's game." If you "think" the ball was out, but you're not sure, give the bene of the doubt to your opponent. Better to be known as an honest loser than a cheating winner.

I say 80 % of the guys in USTA cheat, either intentionally or Unintentionally

 

[halbrikj]

Halbrikj, how do you know the calls were "bad"? are you depending on your own eyesight?

yeah, why, what else would I use?

 

[halbrikj]

Our perception is based on eyesight and processing by the brain. So thinking that the ball looked out is exactly correct. You look at the ball with your eyes but it is your brain that processes the information and makes a decision.

It is sufficient grounds to make an out call.

Thinking that the ball looked out might mean you're 51% sure the ball was out. Not grounds to make an out call. Me, I don't make an out call unless I'm 99.9% sure, but that's just me...

 

[halbrikj]

I think the biggest thing you have to realize before calling people cheaters is that everyone's perceptions are different.

Look at line judges on the pro tour. According to what I am finding online 30% of hawkeye challenges result in overturns. And that is just based on challenged calls so the number should be higher. These are lines persons whose sole responsibility is to call the line and they still get it wrong.

It is because of this that it's not worth calling your opponents cheaters just because their perception differs from yours.

Good point, but I think the difference between linesmen and your opponent, is that linesmen are supposed to be neutral, whereas your opponent should give you the benefit of the doubt.

 

[gameboy]

I say 80 % of the guys in USTA cheat, either intentionally or Unintentionally

I say 95% of the people who complain about cheating around here are cheaters themselves.

 

[3fees]

A few will try and win this way , most just try and outplay or out last there opp.

Cheers
3Fees

 

[tennis tom]

No excuses, but some of the older gals who've had a lot of face-work done seem to be some of the worst offenders at making really bad line calls. Surgery around their eyes must distort the focus of their eyeballs. There's one lady at my club who consistently misses calls by six inches to a foot and will go to the mat swearing up and down that's she's RIGHT! Her partner and her doubles opponents will strongly disagree with her--but no matter, she insists she's right. Too bad clubs don't have Hawk-Eye, they could charge $10 per ruling, loser pays, could be a great revenue stream for club's.

 

[dman72]

Gotta bump because I had another rough experience with a guy in my league. A nice guy who I'm assuming wasn't intentionally cheating. First call was a deep ball that may have been out, but he doesn't call out, and points to the line, then I swear says 30-15, which would have meant I won the point.

I win the next point and I say "40-15"..he says..."it's 30 all"...I say.."that ball last shot was out on the back line...looked close to me and I didn't hear you call out....ok". Whatever I win the game and the set.

Late in the 3rd set, I'm rolling and I crush a second serve return 4-6 inches inside the sideline for a clean winner...one of the guys on the next court, who had finished claps and says "nice shot!!".

I win the next point and keep the balls because I'm now supposed to serve..my opponent says.."15-40".....I'm say, "no I just won the point". Where was that shot 2 points ago.
My opponent:"I thought it was out."

So the guy on the next court claps for missed shots? On a ball that didn't even touch the INSIDE of the line and was in by at least 4 inches? I'm 20/20 with my contacts and I was at my own service line when I hit this shot. Clear as day it was in.

I just don't get it. I really think that some guys just call the ball out when they can't see it. I'm going to have to start loudly announcing the score after every point and making sure I get a definite line call, it's starting to get frustrating with some of these dudes.

Keep in mind, early in the first set, I made at least 6 calls on his shots that were probably out but were very close, as I like to set the right tone for the match.

 

[halbrikj]

Gotta bump because I had another rough experience with a guy in my league. A nice guy who I'm assuming wasn't intentionally cheating. First call was a deep ball that may have been out, but he doesn't call out, and points to the line, then I swear says 30-15, which would have meant I won the point.

I win the next point and I say "40-15"..he says..."it's 30 all"...I say.."that ball last shot was out on the back line...looked close to me and I didn't hear you call out....ok". Whatever I win the game and the set.

Late in the 3rd set, I'm rolling and I crush a second serve return 4-6 inches inside the sideline for a clean winner...one of the guys on the next court, who had finished claps and says "nice shot!!".

I win the next point and keep the balls because I'm now supposed to serve..my opponent says.."15-40".....I'm say, "no I just won the point". Where was that shot 2 points ago.
My opponent:"I thought it was out."

So the guy on the next court claps for missed shots? On a ball that didn't even touch the INSIDE of the line and was in by at least 4 inches? I'm 20/20 with my contacts and I was at my own service line when I hit this shot. Clear as day it was in.

I just don't get it. I really think that some guys just call the ball out when they can't see it. I'm going to have to start loudly announcing the score after every point and making sure I get a definite line call, it's starting to get frustrating with some of these dudes.

Keep in mind, early in the first set, I made at least 6 calls on his shots that were probably out but were very close, as I like to set the right tone for the match.

In my experience some of the worst calls have come from the "nicest" guys.

 

[Edburger]

Me, I dislike people who make big deal about bad line calls than people who make bad line calls.

Everyone gets bad calls. You just shrug.

Other week, I play charity tournament at club. Halfway through second set, I call first serve out. Opponent thinks it in. Makes rude comment and serves next ball very hard and into body. Then is very rude at rest of changeovers.

Made for very unpleasant match. I feel, better assume they just can't see well than assume they cheat. Even if they are cheat, being rude just makes match more unpleasant.

 

[dman72]

Me, I dislike people who make big deal about bad line calls than people who make bad line calls.

Everyone gets bad calls. You just shrug.

Other week, I play charity tournament at club. Halfway through second set, I call first serve out. Opponent thinks it in. Makes rude comment and serves next ball very hard and into body. Then is very rude at rest of changeovers.

Made for very unpleasant match. I feel, better assume they just can't see well than assume they cheat. Even if they are cheat, being rude just makes match more unpleasant.

It's rude calling balls out if you're too blind to see a ball 4 inches in correctly.

If you go by the mantra "when in doubt, call it in"...this will pretty much never happen to you. If you have to stop for a second, or say OUT loud "I THINK it was out"...then you shouldn't have called it out.

I rarely get any of this directed my way. Maybe twice in the 5 years I've been playing leagues, and one of those was from a really big a-hole. The other one probably was warranted and I learned from it early on.

I did have a kid question a serve call (ball was wide by a foot) on a sharp slicer, but he apologized later for questioning it..he was getting frustrated.

 

[Mauvaise]

Everyone gets bad calls. You just shrug.

Exactly. And everyone makes bad calls. I think it makes for a more enjoyable time on court if you can attribute the occasional bad call to an honest mistake rather than someone deliberating cheating you.

In reading this thread it occurred to me that in the almost five years of playing tennis (maybe four of that playing competitively) I don't think I've ever asked an opponent "Are you sure?" Even if I think (or know) I received a bad call. I may quietly ask my partner to confirm their call or exchange a pointed look with my partner, but I can't remember ever arguing with an opponent over a call they've made. I just accept it and move on.

Conversely when I hit a shot that I know is close and we receive a "benefit of the doubt" call, I thank my opponent(s) for the call. I've also called my own shot out if I've clearly seen it (looking down the line) and they didn't. I've also over-ruled myself on an out call when I do a little mental instant reply and realised I made an incorrect call.

I seem to play with enough people that adopt this "shrug and move on" attitude because I can only recall a couple of times that I've (or my partner) have been questioned on a call.

This last time was on Monday. I was receiving on the Ad side and the opponent attempted a serve up the T. It wasn't long, but it was wide. Both my partner & I called it out. Keeping in mind that this was only the 2nd game of the match and the first close call, it really was rude for our opponent to "question" our call by saying a bit condescendingly, "You know, if the ball hits any part of the line it's in."

Really? That's the tone you want to take to start out the match? Especially when I know from experience that's a difficult one to see out from the server's perspective (I've thought many of my T-serves to Ad court where in and called out only to have my partner confirm for me they were indeed out). I can't remember exactly what I said beyond "I know" and exchanging a Look with my partner. But in my head I replied, "Oh? Well in that case: it was %#*@(&&* OUT."

 

[Edburger]

It's rude calling balls out if you're too blind to see a ball 4 inches in correctly.

Perhaps, genuine difference of opinion? Me, I often watch pro matches and think ball definitely out. Hawkeye shows in.

Often people see things differently. No malice. Why not benefit of the doubt?

 

[tennis_ocd]

You played three sets, disagree with two line calls and stew about it?! I sometimes don't get thru four first serves without raising an eyebrow 2x

 

[jmnk]

[...]

Late in the 3rd set, I'm rolling and I crush a second serve return 4-6 inches inside the sideline for a clean winner...one of the guys on the next court, who had finished claps and says "nice shot!!".

I win the next point and keep the balls because I'm now supposed to serve..my opponent says.."15-40".....I'm say, "no I just won the point". Where was that shot 2 points ago.
My opponent:"I thought it was out."

So the guy on the next court claps for missed shots? On a ball that didn't even touch the INSIDE of the line and was in by at least 4 inches? I'm 20/20 with my contacts and I was at my own service line when I hit this shot. Clear as day it was in.

ok, to clarify. You are saying that you can actually return a serve while standing on the service line? If so - my hat's off to you. Although I must say that if your opponent serves such bombs that you indeed can return them from the service line than you probably should not whine on the internet forum even if he makes a bad call. Or two. Or three.

I just don't get it. I really think that some guys just call the ball out when they can't see it. I'm going to have to start loudly announcing the score after every point and making sure I get a definite line call, it's starting to get frustrating with some of these dudes.

Keep in mind, early in the first set, I made at least 6 calls on his shots that were probably out but were very close, as I like to set the right tone for the match.

In other words you want a medal for making a correct call?

 

[dman72]

ok, to clarify. You are saying that you can actually return a serve while standing on the service line? If so - my hat's off to you. Although I must say that if your opponent serves such bombs that you indeed can return them from the service line than you probably should not whine on the internet forum even if he makes a bad call. Or two. Or three.


In other words you want a medal for making a correct call?

It was a very weak lollipop second serve, and yes, my feet were maybe 2 feet behind the service line and I hit down the line, so I had a clear view. The guy had given up on his second serve by then.

No, I want the benefit fo the doubt from opponents who are given the benefit of the doubt. If I call a bunch of balls in that are perhaps a few millimeters out, I fully expect a ball that doesn't touch the INSIDE of the line to be called in.

But, I guess I'm being picky. I won by quite a large majority, but you can assume you'll get this crap and more of it in a closer match from the same guy.