Bad Line Calls

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by kl2963, Apr 16, 2017.

  1. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    There's also the other side of the coin, let's say you're the pro in a pro-am and your partner is making egregiously bad calls for whatever reason--bad eye-sight or having paid a lot of money to play with Lindsay Davenport wanting bragging rights at the bar afterwards to say they beat Stubsy, et, al. Rather then make an issue out of it, embarrassing your big-shot high-value partner and having him fly-off in his plane he just got licensed to solo in, you even out the score by missing subtly--or not so subtly, hitting the ball into the top of the net or long--or over the fence into the creek. You even out the score with a give back point--is this cheating too--or just good sportsmanship in a match where the results will not be reported to the paper's sports section.
     
    #51
  2. Nacho

    Nacho Semi-Pro

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    yes, in a USTA match you are not supposed to....But in rec matches no ref, anything goes;)
     
    #52
  3. nytennisaddict

    nytennisaddict Hall of Fame

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    yeah, i just want to know that I'm playing on the same size court as my opponent... lines are supposed to define that, but "just caught the line" is defined very different across all players. at least this device tries to normalize that.
     
    #53
  4. mmk

    mmk Hall of Fame

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    According to commentators on matches I've watched, 1mm, quite a bit better than 20mm which is roughly 0.78 inches.
     
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  5. Nostradamus

    Nostradamus G.O.A.T.

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    wow, that is not very accurate then
     
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  6. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Hall of Fame

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    We've now limited this scenario into a 1v1 with no witnesses variation. No one will actually know what really happened besides you two, so now it's a question of your personal integrity vs. their.

    In this very specific case, I would let them win. It's a game. It's not you vs. a mugger in a dark alley.

    After it becomes clear that there is no reasoning with your cheating opponent, I would uphold my personal values and refuse to cheat in response to their cheating. I would let both captains know in an email, asking them to keep an eye on that player, and BCC it to a league representative. League reps normally dont want to receive emails about cheating/sandbaggers, ect. but in such a special case it would be interesting to them.

    In a case of life or death keeping your integrity intact would be much harder when a terrorist is about to execute you.

    In tennis, it's easy. The idea is the same.
     
    #56
  7. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Hall of Fame

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    It's 5mm. Sounds huge, and it is, especially when there is a challenge and the ball appears to be less than 5mm on the line.

    An interesting thing to note...

    The cameras to not actually see the ball impact. They procedurally generate it. Basically, it's completely made up. It's hilarious that Ivo Karlovic's serve make the same ball mark as Leander Paes. I have personally made ball marks that are 4-5 inches long, yet I have not seen a 4-5 inch ball mark from Hawkeye, ever. So, I must be serving faster than Ivo Karlovic? *laughs*

    The 10 cameras essentially work like 10 eyes. Each eye records what it sees and then it triangulates the live position of the ball. If some of those cameras do not get a good view, it's akin to covering on of your eyes and trying to play darts. You can still see, just not as well.
     
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  8. Nostradamus

    Nostradamus G.O.A.T.

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    5 mm vs 20 mm, it isn't that big of difference ....lol
     
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  9. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Hall of Fame

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    Well, all lines except the baseline can be between 25mm and 50mm. The baseline can be from 25mm to 100mm.

    20mm is almost a whole line on a thin line and almost half the line on a thick one, whereas 5mm (or less) are minor fractions of a line.

    It's 5mm or less. Even if Hawkeye shows it being on the line by 1mm, it doesnt automatically mean Hawkeye is wrong. It just means it could be wrong. In the original Hawkeye system you could actually see what each of the cameras saw transposed on top each other. The more "blurry" the mark, the more discrepancy between the cameras. If the ball mark had little signs of transposition, then you know each of the cameras are in "agreement" with each other.
     
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  10. OrangePower

    OrangePower Legend

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    Flex league has no captains, but I get your point.
    I personally would not just continue playing in the face of extreme cheating. There is no enjoyment in it for me at that point. So I would either concede, or make a stand. Sometimes integrity can mean making a stand for what's right.
     
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  11. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    That's the exact response the cheater is hoping for, appeasement, the Neville Chamberlain approach.
     
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  12. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Hall of Fame

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    It's only "integrity" if you stand up for yourself in the right way. All im saying is that challenging a cheater to a cheating contest is not within the spirit of the game and it does not make for a better game. Sure, it may make that game better for you in that moment, but just imagine if every single suspect line call was responded to with an immediate retaliatory line call? This game would turn to S__t.

    Just think of every thread on this forum accusing the opponent of cheating because the poster said they saw the ball on the line from the opposite end of the court. Just think of every pro who wastes a challenge on a ball they thought was in, but was in fact several inches out on Hawkeye.

    Now imagine all those people making retaliatory line calls because they are "standing up for themselves" after the third "obvious" bad call.

    We should not encourage people to act in this way. Period. This is why USTA has a specific penalty for retaliatory calls.

    If you got killed by the police tomorrow, would you want people from this forum to "protest" by killing police? Of course not, right? Call congress. Call the mayor. Stand in front of city hall. Stand in front of the police station, but do not disrupt emergency services.Ect. It doesnt have to be an "eye for an eye" all the time.

    There is a right way and a wrong way to go about things. Cheating in response to cheating does not make for a good game.
     
    #62
  13. AllCourtHeathen

    AllCourtHeathen Rookie

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    I quit playing in my night competition because of the disgusting lack of honesty and the snide/faux "social" facade LOL it was the most UNsocial activity I've ever participated in. I could not look myself in the mirror if I claimed a point I knew that I had not won. Yet these losers go home feeling great about themselves. Just sh*t humans. Oxygen thieves. Not worth my time.
     
    #63
  14. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    Once again you're creating a fake narrative to suit your strawman argument. The OP was talking (and everyone else here understands this thread is about WELL KNOWN EGREGIOUS CHEATERS who make bad line calls by feet and not millimeters. They are well known to their teammates, captains, refs, and opposing teams. When their names come up, the first thing people talk about is their CHEATING ways! That's what this thread is about. Close calls are covered in the code by the "give your opponent the benefit of the doubt" principle. You are conflating the two. The inveterate cheater continues their EVIL ways because THEY CAN get away with it, good people standing by doing nothing, not having the courage to stand-up to them. You can create a verbal confrontation or you can make a fun game out of it, since tennis IS a game and only an allegory for war and a non-physical form of boxing. SO, you give the perp a taste of his own medicine and cheat him back--if you have the GUTS to do it, it can be quite fun and satisfying, when you witness the behavior change you have constructed and the cheater mends his ways and stops cheating, recognizing he's met his match and the David on the other side of the net can sling a better stone.
    When your in a match with a blatant, egregious, well known cheater, it is NO LONGER tennis, you can bow down to him and let him slay you, you can pack up your bag, quit and retreat, with your head down in shame--or you can make it into a contest with the new rules of engagement handed to you by your CHEATIN' foe--to the cheers of the onlookers and the adulation of the lovely ladies who have found a new hero in you.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017 at 7:30 AM
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  15. OrangePower

    OrangePower Legend

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    I do agree with you; in 99% of cases I would not support a retaliatory call for exactly the reasons you state. I'm commenting on the (fortunately) very rare case where the cheating is obvious and repeated, and there is no other recourse (no captains or teammates to report to or to have act as linespeople, etc).
    When your opponent turns the match into a farce, the options are to (1) continue playing under farcical conditions, (2) quit and concede, or (3) confront your opponent in a way that makes it clear that you will not be cowed.

    More colorful than I would have put it, but captures the spirit of the thing ;)
     
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  16. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    I admit to quite a degree of hyperbole with that one--but this IS the internet.
     
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  17. newpball

    newpball Legend

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    Oh boy!

    [​IMG]

    :D
     
    #67
  18. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    If she's slim, and has a little money of her own, I'm in. Arnold hasn't quite kept up his fitness program and his ratings have been falling, maybe he needs to check with Maria to get some better supplements from Latvia.
     
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  19. mnttlrg

    mnttlrg Rookie

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    I know I'm late to the party, but I have been wanting to post about this topic for a while....

    I hit with a lot of topspin and my shots tend to dive into the court very deep. A lot of my opponents will watch my shots go by them and immediately comment on how they thought it was going out even though it was in by a foot. Which is fine, but then almost every match I played in last summer also resulted in several clearly bad line calls from my opponents. They were mostly a lot of flat hitting pushers who would park at the baseline and wait for shots to come to them. They would get a fast one that bounces at their feet on the inside part of the line and they would call it out every time.

    They inevitably would tell me how they are in the best position to make the call, and I ended up repeating the same annoying conversation about how you can't be moving at full speed, 100% focused on trying to hit a ball, and then looking straight down at the ground at the same time. It would sort of blur past them and they would just assume it must have been out.

    On top of that, I think when you are playing in a league match, people's drive to win kicks in and they start calling out balls that they are HOPING go out, and then they don't take the call away when they are wrong. I get people starting to call a ball out way before it even bounces, and then they are fooled by the way the shot actually moves in which it ends up hitting the inside of the line.

    I think this happens mostly when you are playing with people who aren't used to the spin and pace and end up not being able to visually keep up with it. They are looking out for one thing and another thing happens and they get confused.
     
    #69
  20. newpball

    newpball Legend

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    I think you are going to be in for a difficult amateur tennis career with this attitude!

    It is generally accepted and the tennis code reiterates it that the receiver makes the call whether a ball is in or out.

    The only alternative for you is to start your own tennis organization stating that the hitter determines whether a ball is in or out because he is not "moving, focusing and trying to hit the ball".

    Good luck!

    [​IMG]

    :D
     
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  21. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Hall of Fame

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    You can confront your opponent without meeting them force on force. "Quitting and conceding" being excluded from "confronting your opponent in a way that makes it clear" is an actual Strawman. You can quit and concede in a way that is very confrontational. For example, you can simply not even mention the fact that they are cheating and just let them call the lines however they want to call it, finish the match, and go home. That's a non-confrontational concession. That's not what im suggesting.

    This is still a question of "is it necessary to cheat in response to cheating". You cant claim it will be any more effective than filing a grievance. If the person is willing to call a ball that is several feet in the court as out, there is no proof that responding in kind will make them not do it at a later time. Maybe they do it in the first set tie breaker, quit doing it in the second set, then hook the final point in the STB and say they won. What is your recourse then? There are no more points to be played. Clearly you cant suggest that "shooting first" and calling the defining point in the STB as out "because they would have done the same", right?
     
    #71
  22. Karma Tennis

    Karma Tennis Professional

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    The right way is to play the "long game". Tell them you know what they are doing and that the "Universe" will take care of them in good time.

    A few years back, I was witness to one player on court being "coached" by his captain off court via the use of phone text messages during game changeovers. The other player knew what was going on, let it go, and still ended up winning the match.

    Afterwards, the "winner" approached the other team's captain and quietly informed him of the fact that he was wise to what had been happening. The captain denied it profusely. (Of course he did. What else was he going to do?). The "winner" then said that while he could lodge a formal complaint he suggested the "Universe" would take care of things soon enough, and left it at that.

    Several weeks later, the "Cheating" team just missed out on playing Finals by the slimmest of margins and from all reports were not happy about it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017 at 2:31 AM
    #72
  23. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    I have deduced this issue to only two things that concern me and help me shape my playing.

    1) Call your side, I call mine. I expect that you call your side and I call mine. We respect each other's calls, good or bad. If you violate this, you are already being unfair. A form of cheating.

    2) Intention to cheat. Too competitive is ok. We all are. I'm talking about intention to cheat that we are supposed to be able to read. If that's the case I sense, you'll be avoided and won't be wasting my time and sanity.
     
    #73
  24. OrangePower

    OrangePower Legend

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    I'm just not prepared to continue playing when the calls are so obviously bad so as to make the game a farce.
    If you are prepared to suffer through such a match to the bitter end, then you are a better man than I, and let's leave it at that :)
     
    #74
  25. OrangePower

    OrangePower Legend

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    One would like to think that this is how the universe works, but unfortunately...
     
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  26. NTRPolice

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    You give me too much credit. I dont know if I would suffer through it until the end against someone who is that obvious. I would tell them to their face that those calls are so obviously bad, im quitting, and not confirming the score since I will file a grievance.

    I honestly cant imagine what I would write in that email. Im glad I probably dont need to waste time even thinking about it.
     
    #76
  27. Rattler

    Rattler Semi-Pro

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    Played A league Doubles match last night they called a wide serve in the Deuce court out and I in a jokingly manner loudly said "Challenge!" And they reveresed their call.

    It was the first game of the match and the ball left a beautiful mark on the very clean blue court...they laughed, we laughed and carried on with our match without any further instances.
     
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  28. Monte Carlo

    Monte Carlo New User

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    Classic case of the "hooker." Either just straight up confront them and ask for a replay of the point, or if things get too worse, get a coach or line judge out there. If all else fails, you need to change your game strategy. The hooker knows he is a weak player and has to cheat to win. Expose his weaknesses, mix in some drop shots and angles while trying to maintain a safe distance from the lines. This way he will be frustrated when he can't return your shots and he will have no line call bs to deal with it. This is exactly what happened in my weekend tourney match. I was making a comeback and the guy started hooking me on line calls that were clearly in. This guys weakness was running, so drop shots did the trick and it was amazing to see him self-destruct.
     
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