Bad Line Calls

[tennis tom]

There's also the other side of the coin, let's say you're the pro in a pro-am and your partner is making egregiously bad calls for whatever reason--bad eye-sight or having paid a lot of money to play with Lindsay Davenport wanting bragging rights at the bar afterwards to say they beat Stubsy, et, al. Rather then make an issue out of it, embarrassing your big-shot high-value partner and having him fly-off in his plane he just got licensed to solo in, you even out the score by missing subtly--or not so subtly, hitting the ball into the top of the net or long--or over the fence into the creek. You even out the score with a give back point--is this cheating too--or just good sportsmanship in a match where the results will not be reported to the paper's sports section.

 

[Nacho]

Im pretty sure you're not entitled to go to the opponent's side to inspect a mark and could be coded for unsportsmanlike conduct by an official. But nothing stops you from looking at it the next changeover.

yes, in a USTA match you are not supposed to....But in rec matches no ref, anything goes

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Completely agree. Any such device is going to be making much more accurate calls than we as the players on court can make ourselves, and it would be making the calls impartially. Thats all you can ask for.

yeah, i just want to know that I'm playing on the same size court as my opponent... lines are supposed to define that, but "just caught the line" is defined very different across all players. at least this device tries to normalize that.

 

[mmk]

What is the margin of Error on Haweye system ? is it a lot better 0.78 inch margin ?

According to commentators on matches I've watched, 1mm, quite a bit better than 20mm which is roughly 0.78 inches.

 

[Nostradamus]

wow, that is not very accurate then

 

[NTRPolice]

Flex league does not have captains, officials, or teammates to call. So what do you do?

Telling your opponent "that was several feet inside the court" still leaves you with no recourse if they just say "well, its my call, and I saw it out". Of course you both know he is lying / cheating, but there is nothing to be done other than to (1) concede points like that whenever he feels like taking them, or (2) stop playing and concede the match. Both of which are outcomes your opponent may be trying to goad you into.

Calling an obviously-in shot of theirs out says a similar thing, but in addition sends the statement that you are not going to concede a bunch of points or the match itself.

Really, what would you do? Flex league match, just you and your opponent and no-one else, opponent is making truly ridiculous calls.
The only other alternative is to walk off the court.

We've now limited this scenario into a 1v1 with no witnesses variation. No one will actually know what really happened besides you two, so now it's a question of your personal integrity vs. their.

In this very specific case, I would let them win. It's a game. It's not you vs. a mugger in a dark alley.

After it becomes clear that there is no reasoning with your cheating opponent, I would uphold my personal values and refuse to cheat in response to their cheating. I would let both captains know in an email, asking them to keep an eye on that player, and BCC it to a league representative. League reps normally dont want to receive emails about cheating/sandbaggers, ect. but in such a special case it would be interesting to them.

In a case of life or death keeping your integrity intact would be much harder when a terrorist is about to execute you.

In tennis, it's easy. The idea is the same.

 

[NTRPolice]

What is the margin of Error on Haweye system ? is it a lot better 0.78 inch margin ?

It's 5mm. Sounds huge, and it is, especially when there is a challenge and the ball appears to be less than 5mm on the line.

An interesting thing to note...

The cameras to not actually see the ball impact. They procedurally generate it. Basically, it's completely made up. It's hilarious that Ivo Karlovic's serve make the same ball mark as Leander Paes. I have personally made ball marks that are 4-5 inches long, yet I have not seen a 4-5 inch ball mark from Hawkeye, ever. So, I must be serving faster than Ivo Karlovic? *laughs*

The 10 cameras essentially work like 10 eyes. Each eye records what it sees and then it triangulates the live position of the ball. If some of those cameras do not get a good view, it's akin to covering on of your eyes and trying to play darts. You can still see, just not as well.

 

[Nostradamus]

It's 5mm. Sounds huge, and it is, especially when there is a challenge and the ball appears to be less than 5mm on the line.

An interesting thing to note...

The cameras to not actually see the ball impact. They procedurally generate it. Basically, it's completely made up. It's hilarious that Ivo Karlovic's serve make the same ball mark as Leander Paes. I have personally made ball marks that are 4-5 inches long, yet I have not seen a 4-5 inch ball mark from Hawkeye, ever. So, I must be serving faster than Ivo Karlovic? *laughs*

The 10 cameras essentially work like 10 eyes. Each eye records what it sees and then it triangulates the live position of the ball. If some of those cameras do not get a good view, it's akin to covering on of your eyes and trying to play darts. You can still see, just not as well.

5 mm vs 20 mm, it isn't that big of difference ....lol

 

[NTRPolice]

5 mm vs 20 mm, it isn't that big of difference ....lol

Well, all lines except the baseline can be between 25mm and 50mm. The baseline can be from 25mm to 100mm.

20mm is almost a whole line on a thin line and almost half the line on a thick one, whereas 5mm (or less) are minor fractions of a line.

It's 5mm or less. Even if Hawkeye shows it being on the line by 1mm, it doesnt automatically mean Hawkeye is wrong. It just means it could be wrong. In the original Hawkeye system you could actually see what each of the cameras saw transposed on top each other. The more "blurry" the mark, the more discrepancy between the cameras. If the ball mark had little signs of transposition, then you know each of the cameras are in "agreement" with each other.

 

[OrangePower]

We've now limited this scenario into a 1v1 with no witnesses variation. No one will actually know what really happened besides you two, so now it's a question of your personal integrity vs. their.

In this very specific case, I would let them win. It's a game. It's not you vs. a mugger in a dark alley.

After it becomes clear that there is no reasoning with your cheating opponent, I would uphold my personal values and refuse to cheat in response to their cheating. I would let both captains know in an email, asking them to keep an eye on that player, and BCC it to a league representative. League reps normally dont want to receive emails about cheating/sandbaggers, ect. but in such a special case it would be interesting to them.

In a case of life or death keeping your integrity intact would be much harder when a terrorist is about to execute you.

In tennis, it's easy. The idea is the same.

Flex league has no captains, but I get your point.
I personally would not just continue playing in the face of extreme cheating. There is no enjoyment in it for me at that point. So I would either concede, or make a stand. Sometimes integrity can mean making a stand for what's right.

 

[tennis tom]

After it becomes clear that there is no reasoning with your cheating opponent, I would uphold my personal values and refuse to cheat in response to their cheating.

That's the exact response the cheater is hoping for, appeasement, the Neville Chamberlain approach.

 

[NTRPolice]

Sometimes integrity can mean making a stand for what's right.

It's only "integrity" if you stand up for yourself in the right way. All im saying is that challenging a cheater to a cheating contest is not within the spirit of the game and it does not make for a better game. Sure, it may make that game better for you in that moment, but just imagine if every single suspect line call was responded to with an immediate retaliatory line call? This game would turn to S__t.

Just think of every thread on this forum accusing the opponent of cheating because the poster said they saw the ball on the line from the opposite end of the court. Just think of every pro who wastes a challenge on a ball they thought was in, but was in fact several inches out on Hawkeye.

Now imagine all those people making retaliatory line calls because they are "standing up for themselves" after the third "obvious" bad call.

We should not encourage people to act in this way. Period. This is why USTA has a specific penalty for retaliatory calls.

If you got killed by the police tomorrow, would you want people from this forum to "protest" by killing police? Of course not, right? Call congress. Call the mayor. Stand in front of city hall. Stand in front of the police station, but do not disrupt emergency services.Ect. It doesnt have to be an "eye for an eye" all the time.

There is a right way and a wrong way to go about things. Cheating in response to cheating does not make for a good game.

 

[AllCourtHeathen]

I was playing in a local league (mixed team) and our opponents made horrible calls and his partner did not correct him. I was serving for the match in the second set and he called my serve our after dumping his return in the net. Almost the same thing on the second serve, except he hit it wide. When I asked the the mark he pointed to a spot about 2 feet away. This went on multiple times and we ended up dropping the 2nd set mainly because I lost my cool. Overall, I would say there were over 15 obvious bad calls. Most of the calls came after they hit a ball out or into the net. We loss in 3 sets and after the match their team captain apologized for the bad calls.

What do you do in this situation? How do you handle players like this?

I quit playing in my night competition because of the disgusting lack of honesty and the snide/faux "social" facade LOL it was the most UNsocial activity I've ever participated in. I could not look myself in the mirror if I claimed a point I knew that I had not won. Yet these losers go home feeling great about themselves. Just sh*t humans. Oxygen thieves. Not worth my time.

 

[tennis tom]

just imagine if every single suspect line call was responded to with an immediate retaliatory line call?

Once again you're creating a fake narrative to suit your strawman argument. The OP was talking (and everyone else here understands this thread is about WELL KNOWN EGREGIOUS CHEATERS who make bad line calls by feet and not millimeters. They are well known to their teammates, captains, refs, and opposing teams. When their names come up, the first thing people talk about is their CHEATING ways! That's what this thread is about. Close calls are covered in the code by the "give your opponent the benefit of the doubt" principle. You are conflating the two. The inveterate cheater continues their EVIL ways because THEY CAN get away with it, good people standing by doing nothing, not having the courage to stand-up to them. You can create a verbal confrontation or you can make a fun game out of it, since tennis IS a game and only an allegory for war and a non-physical form of boxing. SO, you give the perp a taste of his own medicine and cheat him back--if you have the GUTS to do it, it can be quite fun and satisfying, when you witness the behavior change you have constructed and the cheater mends his ways and stops cheating, recognizing he's met his match and the David on the other side of the net can sling a better stone.

challenging a cheater to a cheating contest is not within the spirit of the game and it does not make for a better game.

When your in a match with a blatant, egregious, well known cheater, it is NO LONGER tennis, you can bow down to him and let him slay you, you can pack up your bag, quit and retreat, with your head down in shame--or you can make it into a contest with the new rules of engagement handed to you by your CHEATIN' foe--to the cheers of the onlookers and the adulation of the lovely ladies who have found a new hero in you.

 

[OrangePower]

It's only "integrity" if you stand up for yourself in the right way. All im saying is that challenging a cheater to a cheating contest is not within the spirit of the game and it does not make for a better game. Sure, it may make that game better for you in that moment, but just imagine if every single suspect line call was responded to with an immediate retaliatory line call? This game would turn to S__t.

Just think of every thread on this forum accusing the opponent of cheating because the poster said they saw the ball on the line from the opposite end of the court. Just think of every pro who wastes a challenge on a ball they thought was in, but was in fact several inches out on Hawkeye.

Now imagine all those people making retaliatory line calls because they are "standing up for themselves" after the third "obvious" bad call.

I do agree with you; in 99% of cases I would not support a retaliatory call for exactly the reasons you state. I'm commenting on the (fortunately) very rare case where the cheating is obvious and repeated, and there is no other recourse (no captains or teammates to report to or to have act as linespeople, etc).
When your opponent turns the match into a farce, the options are to (1) continue playing under farcical conditions, (2) quit and concede, or (3) confront your opponent in a way that makes it clear that you will not be cowed.

When your in a match with a blatant, egregious, well known cheater, it is NO LONGER tennis, you can bow down to him and let him slay you, you can pack up your bag, quit and retreat, with your head down in shame--or you can make it into a contest with the new rules of engagement handed to you by your CHEATIN' foe--to the cheers of the onlookers and the adulation of the lovely ladies who have found a new hero in you.

More colorful than I would have put it, but captures the spirit of the thing

 

[tennis tom]

More colorful than I would have put it, but captures the spirit of the thing

I admit to quite a degree of hyperbole with that one--but this IS the internet.

 

[newpball]

...the adulation of the lovely ladies who have found a new hero in you.

Oh boy!

 

[tennis tom]

Oh boy!

If she's slim, and has a little money of her own, I'm in. Arnold hasn't quite kept up his fitness program and his ratings have been falling, maybe he needs to check with Maria to get some better supplements from Latvia.

 

[mnttlrg]

I know I'm late to the party, but I have been wanting to post about this topic for a while....

I hit with a lot of topspin and my shots tend to dive into the court very deep. A lot of my opponents will watch my shots go by them and immediately comment on how they thought it was going out even though it was in by a foot. Which is fine, but then almost every match I played in last summer also resulted in several clearly bad line calls from my opponents. They were mostly a lot of flat hitting pushers who would park at the baseline and wait for shots to come to them. They would get a fast one that bounces at their feet on the inside part of the line and they would call it out every time.

They inevitably would tell me how they are in the best position to make the call, and I ended up repeating the same annoying conversation about how you can't be moving at full speed, 100% focused on trying to hit a ball, and then looking straight down at the ground at the same time. It would sort of blur past them and they would just assume it must have been out.

On top of that, I think when you are playing in a league match, people's drive to win kicks in and they start calling out balls that they are HOPING go out, and then they don't take the call away when they are wrong. I get people starting to call a ball out way before it even bounces, and then they are fooled by the way the shot actually moves in which it ends up hitting the inside of the line.

I think this happens mostly when you are playing with people who aren't used to the spin and pace and end up not being able to visually keep up with it. They are looking out for one thing and another thing happens and they get confused.

 

[newpball]

They inevitably would tell me how they are in the best position to make the call, and I ended up repeating the same annoying conversation about how you can't be moving at full speed, 100% focused on trying to hit a ball, and then looking straight down at the ground at the same time. It would sort of blur past them and they would just assume it must have been out.

I think you are going to be in for a difficult amateur tennis career with this attitude!

It is generally accepted and the tennis code reiterates it that the receiver makes the call whether a ball is in or out.

The only alternative for you is to start your own tennis organization stating that the hitter determines whether a ball is in or out because he is not "moving, focusing and trying to hit the ball".

Good luck!

 

[NTRPolice]

I do agree with you; in 99% of cases I would not support a retaliatory call for exactly the reasons you state. I'm commenting on the (fortunately) very rare case where the cheating is obvious and repeated, and there is no other recourse (no captains or teammates to report to or to have act as linespeople, etc).
When your opponent turns the match into a farce, the options are to (1) continue playing under farcical conditions, (2) quit and concede, or (3) confront your opponent in a way that makes it clear that you will not be cowed.

You can confront your opponent without meeting them force on force. "Quitting and conceding" being excluded from "confronting your opponent in a way that makes it clear" is an actual Strawman. You can quit and concede in a way that is very confrontational. For example, you can simply not even mention the fact that they are cheating and just let them call the lines however they want to call it, finish the match, and go home. That's a non-confrontational concession. That's not what im suggesting.

This is still a question of "is it necessary to cheat in response to cheating". You cant claim it will be any more effective than filing a grievance. If the person is willing to call a ball that is several feet in the court as out, there is no proof that responding in kind will make them not do it at a later time. Maybe they do it in the first set tie breaker, quit doing it in the second set, then hook the final point in the STB and say they won. What is your recourse then? There are no more points to be played. Clearly you cant suggest that "shooting first" and calling the defining point in the STB as out "because they would have done the same", right?

 

[Karma Tennis]

The right way is to play the "long game". Tell them you know what they are doing and that the "Universe" will take care of them in good time.

A few years back, I was witness to one player on court being "coached" by his captain off court via the use of phone text messages during game changeovers. The other player knew what was going on, let it go, and still ended up winning the match.

Afterwards, the "winner" approached the other team's captain and quietly informed him of the fact that he was wise to what had been happening. The captain denied it profusely. (Of course he did. What else was he going to do?). The "winner" then said that while he could lodge a formal complaint he suggested the "Universe" would take care of things soon enough, and left it at that.

Several weeks later, the "Cheating" team just missed out on playing Finals by the slimmest of margins and from all reports were not happy about it.

 

[user92626]

I have deduced this issue to only two things that concern me and help me shape my playing.

1) Call your side, I call mine. I expect that you call your side and I call mine. We respect each other's calls, good or bad. If you violate this, you are already being unfair. A form of cheating.

2) Intention to cheat. Too competitive is ok. We all are. I'm talking about intention to cheat that we are supposed to be able to read. If that's the case I sense, you'll be avoided and won't be wasting my time and sanity.

 

[OrangePower]

You can confront your opponent without meeting them force on force. "Quitting and conceding" being excluded from "confronting your opponent in a way that makes it clear" is an actual Strawman. You can quit and concede in a way that is very confrontational. For example, you can simply not even mention the fact that they are cheating and just let them call the lines however they want to call it, finish the match, and go home. That's a non-confrontational concession. That's not what im suggesting.

This is still a question of "is it necessary to cheat in response to cheating". You cant claim it will be any more effective than filing a grievance. If the person is willing to call a ball that is several feet in the court as out, there is no proof that responding in kind will make them not do it at a later time. Maybe they do it in the first set tie breaker, quit doing it in the second set, then hook the final point in the STB and say they won. What is your recourse then? There are no more points to be played. Clearly you cant suggest that "shooting first" and calling the defining point in the STB as out "because they would have done the same", right?

I'm just not prepared to continue playing when the calls are so obviously bad so as to make the game a farce.
If you are prepared to suffer through such a match to the bitter end, then you are a better man than I, and let's leave it at that

 

[OrangePower]

The right way is to play the "long game". Tell them you know what they are doing and that the "Universe" will take care of them in good time.

One would like to think that this is how the universe works, but unfortunately...

 

[NTRPolice]

If you are prepared to suffer through such a match to the bitter end, then you are a better man than I, and let's leave it at that

You give me too much credit. I dont know if I would suffer through it until the end against someone who is that obvious. I would tell them to their face that those calls are so obviously bad, im quitting, and not confirming the score since I will file a grievance.

I honestly cant imagine what I would write in that email. Im glad I probably dont need to waste time even thinking about it.

 

[Rattler]

Played A league Doubles match last night they called a wide serve in the Deuce court out and I in a jokingly manner loudly said "Challenge!" And they reveresed their call.

It was the first game of the match and the ball left a beautiful mark on the very clean blue court...they laughed, we laughed and carried on with our match without any further instances.

 

[Monte Carlo]

Classic case of the "hooker." Either just straight up confront them and ask for a replay of the point, or if things get too worse, get a coach or line judge out there. If all else fails, you need to change your game strategy. The hooker knows he is a weak player and has to cheat to win. Expose his weaknesses, mix in some drop shots and angles while trying to maintain a safe distance from the lines. This way he will be frustrated when he can't return your shots and he will have no line call bs to deal with it. This is exactly what happened in my weekend tourney match. I was making a comeback and the guy started hooking me on line calls that were clearly in. This guys weakness was running, so drop shots did the trick and it was amazing to see him self-destruct.

 

[Ft.S]

I just have to share: We played a league match the other night on doubles #1 court; tough opponents and competitive in nature. There were several potentially controversial situations during the match, balls hitting close to the line, aces flying by right at the corners, and excellent drop shots where players either barely made it to the ball or not before a double bounce, etc.

In all of those cases, both teams gave the point to the opponents, calling the balls in, raising hand for double bounces and calling a 'touch' for hard-hit shots that imperceptibly touched a racquet.

It was a such a pleasant match to have with the opponents, everyone left the court with smiling faces.

 

[atp2015]

Cheating is hard to overcome for me while playing points. One good thing is that most people are very generous, and I have had opponents reverse the call when they could see ball bouncing wide and I could not from my end. Cheaters do show up once in a while but rare for me. I have come to appreciate these wisdom words to challenge a bad call - "the shot felt good and looked close. Are you sure it was out?" . Definitely polite question will make the guy know that you are aware of the mistakes and helps to minimize some of the cheating attempts. These words were directed at once when I apparently made bad call on a line kisser and it did help me become more generous.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Cheating shouldn't be so hard to overcome. There is no way a better player should lose merely by playing on a 3 inch smaller court size.
Just call your side fairly, trust that the opponent will call his side fairly and beat him through superior shots and tactics. If I'm relying on getting good line calls to win then my targets are way too tight.

 

[user92626]

Cheating is hard to overcome for me while playing points. One good thing is that most people are very generous, and I have had opponents reverse the call when they could see ball bouncing wide and I could not from my end. Cheaters do show up once in a while but rare for me. I have come to appreciate these wisdom words to challenge a bad call - "the shot felt good and looked close. Are you sure it was out?" . Definitely polite question will make the guy know that you are aware of the mistakes and helps to minimize some of the cheating attempts. These words were directed at once when I apparently made bad call on a line kisser and it did help me become more generous.

Unless you have a perfect tone of voice, those would not be words of wisdom to be used on me. I'm very confident and fair in my ability so I would interpret your question to be attacking my ability. Remember, when I compete with you, I already believe that I'm better than you. There's no way I would think your assessment is better than mine.

I make a bad call I will reverse it immediately and give you the point.

Btw I play with a good friend for over 3 years. We are very competitive and intense in our playing. He had asked me a couple times that question but soon learned that it was futile. Now we absolutely go with each other's calls. Not a single dispute or headache. I don't doubt any call I make. If I won on doubts it would only lessen my victory and only I would know and suffer.

 

[atp2015]

Unless you have a perfect tone of voice, those would not be words of wisdom to be used on me. I'm very confident and fair in my ability so I would interpret your question to be attacking my ability. Remember, when I compete with you, I already believe that I'm better than you. There's no way I would think your assessment is better than mine.

I make a bad call I will reverse it immediately and give you the point.

Btw I play with a good friend for over 3 years. We are very competitive and intense in our playing. He had asked me a couple times that question but soon learned that it was futile. Now we absolutely go with each other's calls. Not a single dispute or headache. I don't doubt any call I make. If I won on doubts it would only lessen my victory and only I would know and suffer.

I like your competitiveness and it's a desirable quality. I can see how someone would become very defensive when a question is asked of them. If they get upset with it, it's something for them to deal with. From my point of view, it is not attacking his ability, but it's expressing my belief that I saw/felt the ball land differently than he did. Do I expect him to reverse the call? No, it rarely happens and I don't expect it. It's for influencing the behavior going forward. (even though I recall one instance when my opponent reversed the call after searching for mark on a clay court - the ball hit flush on the tape and he called it out. When I asked if he was sure, he started looking for the mark and of course there was none. It was swinging volley from NML , there is no way it would not leave a mark) . The primary intention here is to convey that I see his bluff. It works many times - I have seen people double fault after a bad call. TBH, I have double faulted when I was still thinking about a previous call which I may not have gotten right. Now I offer to change the point, if I'm still thinking about the close call when I get ready for the next serve - it clears up the mind. And I agree with you that some may not like it when I question. I had a guy who retorted - ' Do you think I'm stealing a point from you?' I walked up to the net and said, 'no, I don't think you are stealing anything. But the ball looked very close to me, are you sure the ball was out?". I'm not expecting him to reverse the call, but I want to express how I felt and want him to know for the reasons I explained earlier. To summarize, IMO asking the question is constructive most of the time - to use tennis analogy, it's a high percentage play.

 

[Rattler]

According to commentators on matches I've watched, 1mm, quite a bit better than 20mm which is roughly 0.78 inches.

Hawkeye margin of error is 2mm

The ten cameras that extrapolate the flight path if the ball need to be calibrated more than once a day.

 

[Bluefan75]

I like your competitiveness and it's a desirable quality. I can see how someone would become very defensive when a question is asked of them. If they get upset with it, it's something for them to deal with. From my point of view, it is not attacking his ability, but it's expressing my belief that I saw/felt the ball land differently than he did. Do I expect him to reverse the call? No, it rarely happens and I don't expect it. It's for influencing the behavior going forward. (even though I recall one instance when my opponent reversed the call after searching for mark on a clay court - the ball hit flush on the tape and he called it out. When I asked if he was sure, he started looking for the mark and of course there was none. It was swinging volley from NML , there is no way it would not leave a mark) . The primary intention here is to convey that I see his bluff. It works many times - I have seen people double fault after a bad call. TBH, I have double faulted when I was still thinking about a previous call which I may not have gotten right. Now I offer to change the point, if I'm still thinking about the close call when I get ready for the next serve - it clears up the mind. And I agree with you that some may not like it when I question. I had a guy who retorted - ' Do you think I'm stealing a point from you?' I walked up to the net and said, 'no, I don't think you are stealing anything. But the ball looked very close to me, are you sure the ball was out?". I'm not expecting him to reverse the call, but I want to express how I felt and want him to know for the reasons I explained earlier. To summarize, IMO asking the question is constructive most of the time - to use tennis analogy, it's a high percentage play.

Reading your reply, I have to say you are right, it would absolutely influence my behavior later. If there is a sitter or an overhead, and either open court or tagging you are my choices, you will have most certainly influenced my decision away from the choice I would make going into the match.

I'm probably charred a bit by a guy my buddy played in a tournament. It seemed every other point was questioned. Didn't help my buddy is originally from China, so he says some things differently (Where we would say "It was out", he says "I think it was out". Someone trying stuff would jump on that right away.) And I have a doubles partner who is particularly annoying on that front. I've overruled my partner many times, and have also told him many times the other team was right in their out call. If I'm not sure, the ball is in. I have short patience for someone questioning me there. I won't call an in ball out afterwards, but I'll have no regrets if you happen to be in the way of the path my ball will take on a particularly firmly struck shot.

 

[atp2015]

Reading your reply, I have to say you are right, it would absolutely influence my behavior later. If there is a sitter or an overhead, and either open court or tagging you are my choices, you will have most certainly influenced my decision away from the choice I would make going into the match.

I'm probably charred a bit by a guy my buddy played in a tournament. It seemed every other point was questioned. Didn't help my buddy is originally from China, so he says some things differently (Where we would say "It was out", he says "I think it was out". Someone trying stuff would jump on that right away.) And I have a doubles partner who is particularly annoying on that front. I've overruled my partner many times, and have also told him many times the other team was right in their out call. If I'm not sure, the ball is in. I have short patience for someone questioning me there. I won't call an in ball out afterwards, but I'll have no regrets if you happen to be in the way of the path my ball will take on a particularly firmly struck shot.

I would rather get hit and stop play than shut up my mouth on a call that I think is worth questioning. If someone gets angry and wants to take it on me, it's not my problem. If I get hit hard and if I think it was intentional, I would stop play than continue my association on the court with a delusional guy. I don't question when the call could have gone either way. But, I have had a guy who called out when the ball landed more than a foot in.
Happened recently - I lobbed high and followed it to the net because the guy ran back to get to it. The ball was in more than a foot in and I could see it clearly standing near the net. He could not send the ball back and shouted out with his face still facing the back fence. He did not know that I was right at the net when he shouted out. He had caught me deep in the backhand corner and probably thought he deserved to win the point, could not accept a lousy mishit lob going over his head. But,how can I accept the call when the ball was almost 2 feet inside the baseline -there's no way you would miss a call by 2 feet. I would definitely ask if he is sure that the ball is out.

 

[Bluefan75]

I would rather get hit and stop play than shut up my mouth on a call that I think is worth questioning. If someone gets angry and wants to take it on me, it's not my problem. If I get hit hard and if I think it was intentional, I would stop play than continue my association on the court with a delusional guy. I don't question when the call could have gone either way. But, I have had a guy who called out when the ball landed more than a foot in.
Happened recently - I lobbed high and followed it to the net because the guy ran back to get to it. The ball was in more than a foot in and I could see it clearly standing near the net. He could not send the ball back and shouted out with his face still facing the back fence. He did not know that I was right at the net when he shouted out. He had caught me deep in the backhand corner and probably thought he deserved to win the point, could not accept a lousy mishit lob going over his head. But,how can I accept the call when the ball was almost 2 feet inside the baseline -there's no way you would miss a call by 2 feet. I would definitely ask if he is sure that the ball is out.

Ok, so you're talking about real bad calls. I doubt you and I would have any issue then. That I would certainly agree is worth questioning. If I don't see green, I play it/ say "good shot." I actually have to be careful because I will give a thumbs up to a good shot, which some guys have thought I was signaling out. I try to warn ahead, but sometimes not.

Like I said, I'm a bit charred. The guy my buddy played was asking on every single one, and my doubles partner just....let's just say it's almost better I can tell him it was out/correct his bad calls rather than being on the other side of the net. Your post came across like them. Apologies.

 

[atp2015]

Like I said, I'm a bit charred. The guy my buddy played was asking on every single one, and my doubles partner just....let's just say it's almost better I can tell him it was out/correct his bad calls rather than being on the other side of the net. Your post came across like them. Apologies.

Agree, it's no fun playing if every call has to result in asking a question. and feels great to be able to call my shot out when the the other person could not see a close ball on his side of the net. It's always weak players, relatively speaking, who make bad calls (probably in desperation to win a few games to gain some score line respect). I have not experienced bad calls in very competitive matches or when the player is clearly much better.

And for the record, I question after letting go of first couple of bad calls and also stop after 2 or 3 times - if someone is not willing to hear the message, there's no point pushing the envelope any further. Just focus on my game and hit safer targets.

 

[user92626]

I like your competitiveness and it's a desirable quality. I can see how someone would become very defensive when a question is asked of them. If they get upset with it, it's something for them to deal with. From my point of view, it is not attacking his ability, but it's expressing my belief that I saw/felt the ball land differently than he did. Do I expect him to reverse the call? No, it rarely happens and I don't expect it. It's for influencing the behavior going forward. (even though I recall one instance when my opponent reversed the call after searching for mark on a clay court - the ball hit flush on the tape and he called it out. When I asked if he was sure, he started looking for the mark and of course there was none. It was swinging volley from NML , there is no way it would not leave a mark) . The primary intention here is to convey that I see his bluff. It works many times - I have seen people double fault after a bad call. TBH, I have double faulted when I was still thinking about a previous call which I may not have gotten right. Now I offer to change the point, if I'm still thinking about the close call when I get ready for the next serve - it clears up the mind. And I agree with you that some may not like it when I question. I had a guy who retorted - ' Do you think I'm stealing a point from you?' I walked up to the net and said, 'no, I don't think you are stealing anything. But the ball looked very close to me, are you sure the ball was out?". I'm not expecting him to reverse the call, but I want to express how I felt and want him to know for the reasons I explained earlier. To summarize, IMO asking the question is constructive most of the time - to use tennis analogy, it's a high percentage play.

There are definitely cheaters or grossly unfair callers out there and they probably deserve your asking, influencing.

In my own experience asking this kind of question hardly ever produces a net positive result. 1. It opens the door for others to do the same to you and it can be abused. 2. People being asked may become doubtful and inaccurate from that point on. It has happened to me. (I believed) I was calling correctly until being "challenged", and sometimes it wasn't at all about accuracy but it was some sort of emotional blackmail/manipulation, and I began to make second guessed calls, which no one enjoyed. 3. Like you indicate, It's for influencing the behavior going forward, which is only the line calling behavior. It's not about tennis skill. It's more like gamesmanship. When it comes to gamesmanship, I try to avoid it.

 

[atp2015]

There are definitely cheaters or grossly unfair callers out there and they probably deserve your asking, influencing.

In my own experience asking this kind of question hardly ever produces a net positive result. 1. It opens the door for others to do the same to you and it can be abused. 2. People being asked may become doubtful and inaccurate from that point on. It has happened to me. (I believed) I was calling correctly until being "challenged", and sometimes it wasn't at all about accuracy but it was some sort of emotional blackmail/manipulation, and I began to make second guessed calls, which no one enjoyed. 3. Like you indicate, It's for influencing the behavior going forward, which is only the line calling behavior. It's not about tennis skill. It's more like gamesmanship. When it comes to gamesmanship, I try to avoid it.

Line calling is a tennis skill IMO. If I cannot judge where the ball landed (that means not watching the ball carefully), how can I be a good player? It's no wonder usually poor line callers are poor players in terms of skills based on my experience.
They usually are hackers without proper strokes and underdeveloped footwork.

 

[Karma Tennis]

Line calling is a tennis skill IMO. If I cannot judge where the ball landed (that means not watching the ball carefully), how can I be a good player? It's no wonder usually poor line callers are poor players in terms of skills based on my experience.
They usually are hackers without proper strokes and underdeveloped footwork.

Human biology and physiology dictates that it is virtually impossible for a human being to accurately track and observe a tennis ball bouncing with 100% certainty.

The late great Vic Brayden in his book "Mental Tennis: How to Psych Yourself to a Winning Game" goes to great lengths to explain that most balls that land near a line that are seen to be "out" are actually "in".

It does not matter how carefully one watches the ball, the human eye is not fast enough to track the ball accurately to the level where it can see a tennis ball contact the court, roll along the court, and then leave the court. The human brain kicks in and interpolates the ball track (ie fills in the gaps). A decision is made based on the interpolation but the result of the interpolation is not an exact replica of what actually happened.

The simplest way to deal with this is to always assume that any ball within 4 inches of either side of the line is actually in. (IE a tennis ball can actually roll up to 4 inches along the court surface before it leaves the court.) Now when was the last time, you observed anyone, yourself included, play a ball that was 4 inches beyond the baseline? Probably a long time ago, possibly never. However, staying true to that tenet is real skill. Anything else is just plain luck.

 

[user92626]

Line calling is a tennis skill IMO. If I cannot judge where the ball landed (that means not watching the ball carefully), how can I be a good player? It's no wonder usually poor line callers are poor players in terms of skills based on my experience.
They usually are hackers without proper strokes and underdeveloped footwork.

Tracking the ball to hit well is a tennis skill.

Line calling is not since anyone except the blind can do it.

Line calling is either based on trust or referee and that's applied for beginners to professionals the same. There are pros who are bad at line calling (ie mostly wrong and run out of challenges quickly) but no way correspond with their playing.

 

[Jonboy]

You get hookers at every level. I tend to be generous and give them the benefit of the doubt. Most reciprocate and it makes for a more fun match.

If you get a player that is really bad, try a little reverse psychology. Rather than call their shots out in retailiation, call ones that were obviously out, in. Most cheaters tend to be very proud, and they will hate any perceived charity.

 

[rh310]

I honestly think that people who are capable of "revenge cheating" are capable of cheating themselves.

I think you'd be wrong about that. Being unwilling to be a chump doesn't mean you're a preemptive cheater.

In my experience, I've only had one definite case of blatant cheating against me in 20+ years. The guy would call any ball "out" that landed within ~ foot of the line. I was playing S&V in those days, and could easily see where the volley landed.

Every time I protested he'd smirk at me and say, "The rules say it's my call." He was counting on my either sitting there and taking it, or getting pissed and losing my equilibrium.

So after about 10 of those, he hit one in the middle of the court, a good six feet from any line, and I called it out. I then said, "We can do this all day, or we can play tennis."

There wasn't a single disputed call for the rest of the match. As I recall, he won a tight match anyway -- but at no point was I even remotely tempted to hook him again.

I've never done anything like this in any other match. I always overrule a doubles partner if his call seems incorrect in our favor. I give my opponents the benefit of the doubt -- always. It's not hard to do.

But I'm not a chump, and if you're absolutely certain you're being played for one then you either have to stick up for the meaning of the game, or not play it.

 

[rh310]

Flex league does not have captains, officials, or teammates to call. So what do you do?

Telling your opponent "that was several feet inside the court" still leaves you with no recourse if they just say "well, its my call, and I saw it out". Of course you both know he is lying / cheating, but there is nothing to be done other than to (1) concede points like that whenever he feels like taking them, or (2) stop playing and concede the match. Both of which are outcomes your opponent may be trying to goad you into.

Calling an obviously-in shot of theirs out says a similar thing, but in addition sends the statement that you are not going to concede a bunch of points or the match itself.

Really, what would you do? Flex league match, just you and your opponent and no-one else, opponent is making truly ridiculous calls.
The only other alternative is to walk off the court.

This is exactly right. What you are doing in this rare case is restoring the game, not degrading it. Particularly because it is effective, and stops the nonsense. These deliberate hooks are only effective when it gives one player the advantage. Take that away, and there's no incentive for them to keep doing it.

 

[Dartagnan64]

I think you'd be wrong about that. Being unwilling to be a chump doesn't mean you're a preemptive cheater.

In my experience, I've only had one definite case of blatant cheating against me in 20+ years. The guy would call any ball "out" that landed within ~ foot of the line. I was playing S&V in those days, and could easily see where the volley landed.

Every time I protested he'd smirk at me and say, "The rules say it's my call." He was counting on my either sitting there and taking it, or getting pissed and losing my equilibrium.

So after about 10 of those, he hit one in the middle of the court, a good six feet from any line, and I called it out. I then said, "We can do this all day, or we can play tennis."

There wasn't a single disputed call for the rest of the match. As I recall, he won a tight match anyway -- but at no point was I even remotely tempted to hook him again.

I've never done anything like this in any other match. I always overrule a doubles partner if his call seems incorrect in our favor. I give my opponents the benefit of the doubt -- always. It's not hard to do.

But I'm not a chump, and if you're absolutely certain you're being played for one then you either have to stick up for the meaning of the game, or not play it.

I think if I saw a blatant cheater like that I'd probably concede the match and ask if he'd just like to hit instead. Winning is never important enough to me to get into a heated game of one-upmanship. Fortunately I've never played anyone that is bad enough to call balls clearly within the court as "out". Sure I've had my share of lines called out but that's expected given the inaccuracies of human vision. I've also had my share of out balls called "in". It evens out generally over the long run. For every chincy line caller you play, you often play a generous line caller that will give you more benefit of the doubt than you likely deserve.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

Thankfully, I have only once encountered this at the adult level, which has been many years. I wonder if it is even really a big problem at the adult level. My experience says no. Most (>90%) of adults will actually call bad lines the opposite way, giving you way more leeway than necessary. Why? Not totally sure. Probably because adults understand that reputations get around. Particularly in smaller tennis communities, calling bad lines in rec tennis can kill your sales career, cost you a promotion, or cause you to not get that job when it's available.

However, in juniors it is widespread and rampant. And it is often encouraged by parents, who want their kid to "not get pushed around" or to "stand up for yourself" by calling bad lines.

 

[rh310]

I think if I saw a blatant cheater like that I'd probably concede the match and ask if he'd just like to hit instead. Winning is never important enough to me to get into a heated game of one-upmanship. Fortunately I've never played anyone that is bad enough to call balls clearly within the court as "out". Sure I've had my share of lines called out but that's expected given the inaccuracies of human vision. I've also had my share of out balls called "in". It evens out generally over the long run. For every chincy line caller you play, you often play a generous line caller that will give you more benefit of the doubt than you likely deserve.

I think I've seen many more generous line callers to stingy / outright cheaters. As I said, this guy stands alone from the usual stingy line caller that we all run into regularly.

I don't think it's necessarily that winning has to be important - for me, or anyone who would attempt to correct the behavior such an opponent. There's a fundamental notion of fairness, and that's what matters.

 

[PrestigeDave45]

Had a very similar experience to the OP in a recent doubles final. Frustrating but it happens. On our side we probably made the mistake of not lowering our court ethics to that of the opposition. But then Id prefer to be known as a good sportsman than a cheat. Counted at least 8 bad calls, usually on serve but not always. We lost.
Their tactic was aimed at putting us off, they queried all close calls on our side. In the end it was all that is bad about tennis on the club level. Ive seen them operate before and bad calling is a tactic they frequently employ when up against it.
Suck it up move on ask for an umpire in future.
At one stage in the match I said to one of them don't **** on me and tell me its raining.

 

[PrestigeDave45]

Thankfully, I have only once encountered this at the adult level, which has been many years. I wonder if it is even really a big problem at the adult level. My experience says no. Most (>90%) of adults will actually call bad lines the opposite way, giving you way more leeway than necessary. Why? Not totally sure. Probably because adults understand that reputations get around. Particularly in smaller tennis communities, calling bad lines in rec tennis can kill your sales career, cost you a promotion, or cause you to not get that job when it's available.

However, in juniors it is widespread and rampant. And it is often encouraged by parents, who want their kid to "not get pushed around" or to "stand up for yourself" by calling bad lines.

This is true unfortunately. I have seen it quite a bit at junior level. Parents promoting gamesmanship etc etc.
Makes me wonder!!