Ball impact vs vibrations from racket causing shoulder and elbow pain

[Anthon]

Hi

An experienced player in my club owns some wilson pro staff RF 97 v13 (340g unstrung).
But unfortunately he cant play with the because he gets shoulder/arm issues after 20-30 minutes. He is using leather grip without a overgrip and multifilament or natural gut strings.

I have suggested various things to reduce the vibrations so he can play with the rackets. But he claims that it wont help because the cause of the shoulder/arm pain doesn't come from vibrations. Instead its because the racket is very stiff so the impact with the ball is to hard on his arm/shoulder.
Im aware that stiffer rackets cause a different vibration time and wave lengt than a more flexible racket and part of the reason is that the ball impact is more abrubt and the energy transfer happens i a shorter time period.

But his racket have more mass and should deaccelerate a bit less at ball impact than a lighter racket making the impact feel slightly less abrubt vs with a ligther racket is pre ball and racket speed are similar. But the ball leaves with a bit more speed so more energy have been transfered at ball impact.

Could he be right and the vibrations doesn't matter and its just because the impact is to hard for his arm and shoulder?

I feel like its the weight of the racket that is to hard to swing for his arm/shoulder for a longer period of time if it isn't the vibrations from the impact with a stiff racket that cause the problems. Because the ball feels so ligth with such a heavy racket compared to a light racket/swing weight where a can see the ball impact feels more heavy and could maybe be hard on the wrist especially if you are able to swing it faster than a heavy racket aswell. Am I way off here

Fortunately I don't have arm or shoulde issues and play with a flexible racket.

 

[ratherlosethanpush]

I think your thinking Is similar to my understanding of impact.

The 3 most common shoulder injuries don't seem vibration linked and I've never heard of golfers shoulder or tennis shoulder whereas golfers elbow and tennis elbow seem to be common overuse vibration rsi type injuries.

Heavier racket the racket mass is higher, the stiffer frame should deviate less so the strings should deflect more resulting in less ball deformation thus conserving more energy and transfer more energy into the ball everything else remaining equal is my basic understanding.

I use a rf97a gut poly hybrid never had arm issues caused by it. Find it hard to use when I've had arm issues.

If you've got a weak shoulder you'll notice the heft of the rf97a.

I had a tear in the biceps region and had to switch to a lower massed and swingweight racket for a while when rehabing back into playing (couldn't serve overarm for months). Also had to switch away from the rf97a with a foot injury that meant I want in position and needed to arm balls or not play at all.

What are his shoulder / arm issues? My guess like you would be weight / swingweight over flex.

 

[Dragy]

Shoulder is more likely technic+mass related. Arming it too much. Or having an old issue coming from before - that makes shoulder sensitive to literally anything, heavier stick to swing, harder balls received, whatever.

 

[Anthon]

I think your thinking Is similar to my understanding of impact.

The 3 most common shoulder injuries don't seem vibration linked and I've never heard of golfers shoulder or tennis shoulder whereas golfers elbow and tennis elbow seem to be common overuse vibration rsi type injuries.

Heavier racket the racket mass is higher, the stiffer frame should deviate less so the strings should deflect more resulting in less ball deformation thus conserving more energy and transfer more energy into the ball everything else remaining equal is my basic understanding.

I use a rf97a gut poly hybrid never had arm issues caused by it. Find it hard to use when I've had arm issues.

If you've got a weak shoulder you'll notice the heft of the rf97a.

I had a tear in the biceps region and had to switch to a lower massed and swingweight racket for a while when rehabing back into playing (couldn't serve overarm for months). Also had to switch away from the rf97a with a foot injury that meant I want in position and needed to arm balls or not play at all.

What are his shoulder / arm issues? My guess like you would be weight / swingweight over flex.

He just said that the stifness of the racket hurt his shoulder at impact after 20-30 minutes of play. He is tall and seems fairly strong (46 years old).
I guess he should be able to realise if the racket felt to heavy for him. And I guess would feel hardest on my shoulder/arm/wrist when I start the acceleration and on the follow through when the rackets pulls in a lose arm so he should be able to feel if thats when his shoulder gets hurt.
I ones had to borrow a racket from him at training but he specifically said that I shouldn't use the Federer racket because it would be way to heavy for me (not to stiff ).
I was just surprised about his explanation that it was the impact that hurt his shoulder and the vibrations didn't matter.
I don't have to be right or anything. I just wants to understand it better and I courious about if it really could be possible that the impact caused shoulder or arm problems because the racket is stiff and reduced vibrations wouldn't help (over grip, vibration damper, silicone or foam in the handle etc). And after the conversation and other hitting partner with golf elbow startet hesitating to take action to try to reduce vibrations from his 93sq 18x20 heavy and stiff pro staff
I don't believe that any arguments/explenation from me could change point of view of the 97 RF v13 pro staff player. As he sometimes seem to believe he knows everything. But Im still courious about the possibillity that the impact alone from the stiff racket could cause all the trouble and that a softer grip and so on wouldn't change any thing and I would also like to help the 93sq 18x20 player because he have had elbow issues for a while and doesn't seems to have plans about switching to an other racket and we wont serve when I practise with him

He is using the racket type that Sampres used to play with instead of the v13 pro staff. Guess thats also a fairly heavy racket that though I guess the swing weight is below v13 pro staff.
I thing it also is less stiff even though the small head maybe makes et feel stiff. So guess it could be because he is able to play with the Sampres racket that he is convinced that its the racket stiffness at the impact that cause him shoulder/arm pain.

 

[ratherlosethanpush]

Everybody's different and react differently to things.

Most likely the rf guy is arming it too much, but their are other possibilities. If he'd try a lighter racket he might be able to figure something out.

Overuse injuries like tendinitis should be rested and rehabed. But, I don't listen to my own advice with injuries and play on albeit at a lower intensity so can understand why others wouldn't and would want to keep playing.

You'd want to rest the microtears, improve flexibility and strengthen forearm muscles. Plenty of exercises for this on Internet.

If people are going to keep playing with tendinitis then lower tension, softer strings, dampners and heavier rackets are often mentioned as potentially beneficial to try. I think intuitive tennis may have a different view.

Golfers elbow is inside of elbow, tennis outside iirc. The little gadgets that strap on and effectively change the origin point of the tendon may help there.

 

[LeeD]

Hi

An experienced player in my club owns some wilson pro staff RF 97 v13 (340g unstrung).
But unfortunately he cant play with the because he gets shoulder/arm issues after 20-30 minutes. He is using leather grip without a overgrip and multifilament or natural gut strings.

I have suggested various things to reduce the vibrations so he can play with the rackets. But he claims that it wont help because the cause of the shoulder/arm pain doesn't come from vibrations. Instead its because the racket is very stiff so the impact with the ball is to hard on his arm/shoulder.
Im aware that stiffer rackets cause a different vibration time and wave lengt than a more flexible racket and part of the reason is that the ball impact is more abrubt and the energy transfer happens i a shorter time period.

But his racket have more mass and should deaccelerate a bit less at ball impact than a lighter racket making the impact feel slightly less abrubt vs with a ligther racket is pre ball and racket speed are similar. But the ball leaves with a bit more speed so more energy have been transfered at ball impact.

Could he be right and the vibrations doesn't matter and its just because the impact is to hard for his arm and shoulder?

I feel like its the weight of the racket that is to hard to swing for his arm/shoulder for a longer period of time if it isn't the vibrations from the impact with a stiff racket that cause the problems. Because the ball feels so ligth with such a heavy racket compared to a light racket/swing weight where a can see the ball impact feels more heavy and could maybe be hard on the wrist especially if you are able to swing it faster than a heavy racket aswell. Am I way off here

Fortunately I don't have arm or shoulde issues and play with a flexible racket.

You look at 1/3rd of the problem, and forget 2/3rds.

Problem is wrong strings for that racket and too tight tension, without adding the necessary weight needed to use that racket.

Everybody's different and react differently to things.

Most likely the rf guy is arming it too much, but their are other possibilities. If he'd try a lighter racket he might be able to figure something out.

Overuse injuries like tendinitis should be rested and rehabed. But, I don't listen to my own advice with injuries and play on albeit at a lower intensity so can understand why others wouldn't and would want to keep playing.

You'd want to rest the microtears, improve flexibility and strengthen forearm muscles. Plenty of exercises for this on Internet.

If people are going to keep playing with tendinitis then lower tension, softer strings, dampners and heavier rackets are often mentioned as potentially beneficial to try. I think intuitive tennis may have a different view.

Golfers elbow is inside of elbow, tennis outside iirc. The little gadgets that strap on and effectively change the origin point of the tendon may help there.

 

[ptuanminh]

if it is elbow, very possible its because of cr*ppy technique.

 

[Pumpkin]

As above poster said, it's poor technique. Not going to get impact injuries using natural gut or multifilament.

 

[sureshs]

Not everyone can handle Fed's racket

 

[fuzz nation]

Hi

An experienced player in my club owns some wilson pro staff RF 97 v13 (340g unstrung).
But unfortunately he cant play with the because he gets shoulder/arm issues after 20-30 minutes. He is using leather grip without a overgrip and multifilament or natural gut strings.

I have suggested various things to reduce the vibrations so he can play with the rackets. But he claims that it wont help because the cause of the shoulder/arm pain doesn't come from vibrations. Instead its because the racket is very stiff so the impact with the ball is to hard on his arm/shoulder.
Im aware that stiffer rackets cause a different vibration time and wave lengt than a more flexible racket and part of the reason is that the ball impact is more abrubt and the energy transfer happens i a shorter time period.

But his racket have more mass and should deaccelerate a bit less at ball impact than a lighter racket making the impact feel slightly less abrubt vs with a ligther racket is pre ball and racket speed are similar. But the ball leaves with a bit more speed so more energy have been transfered at ball impact.

Could he be right and the vibrations doesn't matter and its just because the impact is to hard for his arm and shoulder?

I feel like its the weight of the racket that is to hard to swing for his arm/shoulder for a longer period of time if it isn't the vibrations from the impact with a stiff racket that cause the problems. Because the ball feels so ligth with such a heavy racket compared to a light racket/swing weight where a can see the ball impact feels more heavy and could maybe be hard on the wrist especially if you are able to swing it faster than a heavy racket aswell. Am I way off here

Fortunately I don't have arm or shoulde issues and play with a flexible racket.

I'm not a health care professional, but I don't think that you're way off. Arm and shoulder issues can result from a bunch of things all happening at once, but impact shock has become an issue through my adult life as poly strings have become more popular and many racquets have trended toward lighter and stiffer designs. I'm old enough to have learned the game in the wood racquet generation as a kid - the equipment evolution has been interesting.

I've never really gotten the impression that impact shock would be rough on just the shoulder, probably because that shock needs to go through the player's wrist and elbow to get there. Historically I've mostly seen folks have shoulder trouble with racquets that were either much too heavy or much too light for their specific swing/serve style and stroke preparation.

The case of too heavy isn't hard to figure out. I've worked with many kids and adults who had a serving tempo that was a big ol' mess - trying to catch up to a ball without the racquet being near ready to swing when the toss goes up in the air. Rushing a heavy racquet up to that ball is bad news when we do that over and over. Usually step one toward helping to fix that is to have that server alternate between comfortable full practice motions (without hitting a ball) and hitting an actual serve. If there's a rush happening when the ball is introduced, this usually makes it easy to recognize that.

If contact is happening late - while a server is still driving the racquet with tense muscles - that probably also contributes to some shoulder agitation. But I associate this late contact as much more of a problem with wrist and elbow health than the shoulder.

Light racquets can trick some folks into over-swinging too often to generate the power that they want. This is a really big deal for players who get beyond their warrior years and eventually decide to use a lighter alternative to help with keeping up with the game. If the new alternative frame is much lighter than a player's personal normal, it can trick that player into swinging too hard to compensate for the diminished punch that can come with the reduced mass. I've talked with more than one or two guys through last 8-10 years who ran into this problem when they tried to switch to substantially lighter racquets. It might not be such a rarity.