Ball Pocketing - More Racquet, String or Tension?

A

ashridge

Semi-Pro
What is the best "formula", if you will, for ball pocketing? Is it more Racquet, String, or Tension, or is it truly a combination of those?

I recently played with a full bed of Prince Tour XP 17 poly in a Prince 03 Speedport Black racquet at 37x33 tension. Ball pocketing feel was *amazing*, spin was way above average, power was adequate, control was awesome, and comfort was good (even on my sensitive elbow) until the mains started notching, then it was not so comfy. I also recently played with a full bed of Tourna Big Hitter Black 7 in that exact same racquet, at the exact same tension (37x33) and the ball pocketing feel with the BHB7 wasn't nearly as good as with the Tour XP, it definitely didn't have that "catapult" effect feeling like the Tour XP did. Spin was no better with the BHB7 and possibly even a little less. BHB7 was a little less powerful than Tour XP. BHB7 was also less comfortable on my elbow. I still played well with it but not nearly as well as with the Tour XP at same tension.

Back last Fall I played with a full bed of Cyclone 17 at 35 pounds in my Prince Graphite II MP. My notes from the test say that ball pocketing feel was really good, and spin was really good. But this last week I tested out a full bed of Cyclone 17 at 33x29 in both my Phantom Pro 100 and my Phantom Pro 100p, and the ball pocketing feel definitely wasn't as pronounced in either of those racquets as it had been in the Graphite II at 35 full bed. Spin was good, though not amazing, though it's probably not a fair comparison for spin since the Phantom's have a 16x18 pattern and the Graphite II is 14x18.

I've tried a number of different strings, from Gut to SynGut to Multi to Poly to Monogut ZX to many different hybrid set-ups, and so far, the only set-ups I've tried that I can remember having a really noticeable, consistent pocketing feel was Prince Tour XP at 37x33 in my Prince 03 Speedport Black, Cyclone 17 at 35 in my Prince Graphite II MP, and Monogut ZX 17 (natural) at 57x52 in a Volkl V-Sense 8 315. I've tried several set-ups with Natural Gut, both in a full bed and in a hybrid, and the only time I can remember feeling a real noticeable pocketing, "catapult" feel was with Babolat Tonic Longevity mains at 60 and Solinco Outlast poly crosses at 45, and it only had that slingshot/pocketing feel when the set-up was freshly strung. It seemed to die after a while. Of all these set-ups, the one I had the most consistently good control with was the Prince Tour XP at 37x33.

So, what is most responsible for that pocketing sensation, Racquet, String, or Tension? And are there certain *soft* poly strings that have a reputation for better pocketing feel than others?
 
I guess the question is, "what is ball pocketing?" Actual pocketing likely doesn't happen so it's clearly a feedback sensation a player is describing. For many it's the opposite of "boardy". For others its a sensation of the ball lingering on the stringbed a fraction longer. For others it may be racquet flex providing the feedback.

In the end, because its a subjective sensation, you will be hard pressed to find an objective answer. I try to steer away from such nebulous subjective terms as "ball pocketing". Describing the sweet spot feel as harsh or soft, muted or lively gives me a better idea of the feel of a racket.
I prefer rackets that range from soft to modestly crisp with a little bit of liveliness. I steer away from overly muted or harsh frames. That's all I can reasonably say about feel.
 
Dartagnan64 said:
I guess the question is, "what is ball pocketing?" Actual pocketing likely doesn't happen so it's clearly a feedback sensation a player is describing. For many it's the opposite of "boardy". For others its a sensation of the ball lingering on the stringbed a fraction longer. For others it may be racquet flex providing the feedback.

In the end, because its a subjective sensation, you will be hard pressed to find an objective answer. I try to steer away from such nebulous subjective terms as "ball pocketing". Describing the sweet spot feel as harsh or soft, muted or lively gives me a better idea of the feel of a racket.
I prefer rackets that range from soft to modestly crisp with a little bit of liveliness. I steer away from overly muted or harsh frames. That's all I can reasonably say about feel.
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I can say this regarding the definition of "ball pocketing": in my 2 new Phantom's, the Pro 100 feels decidedly like *racquet* flex, and with the Pro 100p I seem to feel less *racquet* flex and more of what I call "ball pocketing", or "dwell time", to use your term. In all of the set-up's I described above where I felt noticeable "ball pocketing", in every instance, the strings felt "lively". Whether that was because of the specific string, or the tension at which I had it strung, I can't say for sure. Prince Tour XP (previously Prince Beast) felt like a paradox to me. It felt *very* lively, not at all muted, and had awesome spin, but yet it felt amazingly controlled. Time and again when I played with it fresh, I was hitting shots that I was just sure were going to sail long and then they just dove down right inside the baseline. My opponent thought they were going out too and just shook his head when seeing them drop in. It gave me the confidence to really swing out on my strokes because it almost felt like I couldn't hit it out. I would say that Monogut ZX 17 at 57x52 also felt almost the same amount of "lively" as Tour XP at 37x33, and had very good ball pocketing sensation, but with less control and a little less spin. One other thing both those set-ups had in common was a high launch angle and the bottom falling out of the shot and frequently dropping inside the baseline.

The "ball pocketing" sensation I'm describing is the feeling of the ball stretching and stretching and stretching the strings till they won't stretch any more and then just catapulting off the strings in an instant. That's exactly what it feels like. It is a different feeling than when I hit with my Phantom Pro 100 and feel the *racquet* flex.
 
You've tried a lot of strings and tensions, but what you haven't messed around with yet is weight distribution. The best distribution for pocketing will be different for every racquet. When you add lead tape or bumper guard tape to the hoop you increase the hoop's inertia, in this case its disposition to slow down less at the impact with the ball. If the strings aren't slowing down then they create a harder collision and more of a pocket. I've found that adding weight at 9&3 generalizes the sweet spot over a wider area and gives it a deader feel as well. At 11&1 there is less deadening, more pocketing, and less need to increase weight. Protection tape dampens the racquet more than lead tape.

When you add weight to your hoop, you will then want to counterbalance it by adding weight to the handle. This will allow you to maintain the center balance that you're used to. At the handle add 3 x the weight added to the top of the hoop. Or at the handle add 2 x the weight added at 9&3. If your racquet feels twitchy after all of this add a gram to the underside of your racquet's bridge, either side of the grommets. That usually calms it down.

Every time you change the weight of your racquet, even just an overgrip or a string damper, you should question what impact you've had on the racquet's power and pocketing ability. There's more to learn about modifications, but I find it to be fun.
 
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I love the feeling of pocketing. TB soft has an awesome pocketing feel in comparison to TB, but not sure if it has a reputation compared to others. I also expect that with more pocketing feel, the more power, launch, and spin comes along with it.
 
Muppet said:
You've tried a lot of strings and tensions, but what you haven't messed around with yet is weight distribution. The best distribution for pocketing will be different for every racquet. When you add lead tape or bumper guard tape to the hoop you increase the hoop's inertia, in this case its disposition to slow down less at the impact with the ball. If the strings aren't slowing down then they create a harder collision and more of a pocket. I've found that adding weight at 9&3 generalizes the sweet spot over a wider area and gives it a deader feel as well. At 11&1 there is less deadening, more pocketing, and less need to increase weight. Protection tape dampens the racquet more than lead tape.

When you add weight to your hoop, you will then want to counterbalance it by adding weight to the handle. This will allow you to maintain the center balance that you're used to. At the handle add 3 x the weight added to the top of the hoop. Or at the handle add 2 x the weight added at 9&3. If your racquet feels twitchy after all of this add a gram to the underside of your racquet's bridge, either side of the grommets. That usually calms it down.

Every time you change the weight of your racquet, even just an overgrip or a string damper, you should question what impact you've had on the racquet's power and pocketing ability. There's more to learn about modifications, but I find it to be fun.
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Interesting thoughts. I tried that Prince Tour XP string set-up originally in the racquet of a friend. He had the Longbody version of the Prince 03 Speedport Black. The strings had originally been strung in the 50's, but he said it had been months ago, so my guess is the tension when I hit with it was probably in the low 40's at the highest. I absolutely loved the feel, spin, and control. He hits flat and not that hard, and there was no notching on the mains at all. He did not have any lead anywhere on his racquet. I ended up getting 2 of the standard length version of that racquet myself and strung up Tour XP 17 @ 37x33. I didn't weight it up heavily, but I did put 1 gram each at 10/12/2, and 2 grams total in the throat. The great ball pocketing I felt from my racquet with Tour XP was pretty much identical to what I felt with it in his racquet. I'm wondering if it would feel that way also in either of my new Phantom's, but more comfy for a longer period of time since those racquets are much less stiff than the 03 Speedport Black.
 
Dartagnan64 said:
I guess the question is, "what is ball pocketing?" Actual pocketing likely doesn't happen so it's clearly a feedback sensation a player is describing. For many it's the opposite of "boardy". For others its a sensation of the ball lingering on the stringbed a fraction longer. For others it may be racquet flex providing the feedback.

In the end, because its a subjective sensation, you will be hard pressed to find an objective answer. I try to steer away from such nebulous subjective terms as "ball pocketing". Describing the sweet spot feel as harsh or soft, muted or lively gives me a better idea of the feel of a racket.
I prefer rackets that range from soft to modestly crisp with a little bit of liveliness. I steer away from overly muted or harsh frames. That's all I can reasonably say about feel.
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So ... that's how you feel?
 
VacationTennis said:
I love the feeling of pocketing. TB soft has an awesome pocketing feel in comparison to TB, but not sure if it has a reputation compared to others. I also expect that with more pocketing feel, the more power, launch, and spin comes along with it.
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I hybrided TBS with Bab M7 once. I got incredible comfort and control. But the drawback was that the strings would stay crooked. I keep wondering what I will do when my Cyber Flash reel runs out. Will I fork out $85 more than the price of the CF reel? I think I'll have to test TBS with Kirsch SG crosses to see if the strings will stay straight. It may be a moot point though. I am very happy with CF. To answer the question, I think TBS and CF have a similar dwell time duration. But while it's on the strings TBS feels a little softer and a little more dead. Otherwise, TBS is square and CF is round.
 
I played my first full singles match tonight with my weighted up Phantom Pro 100 with Tonic Ball Feel NG mains @ 40 and Gosen poly crosses @ 25. Did experience some control issues initially because of the low tension/power, but when I really made a conscious effort to strongly brush up on the ball was when I felt the most pocketing and had the most control, though still nothing to compare to the full Prince Tour XP poly I've tried in my 03 Speedport Black in terms of felt "ball pocketing".
 
I have tried a lot of strings and have settled on Polyfibre TCS 1.20 as I feel it gives the best pocketing of all the polys I have tried. Its has a unique feel, is very soft at first contact then stiffens up as the ball settles into the stringbed, plenty of spin and is low powered which means you can string it lower than normal, further enhancing the pocketing aspect. That's my experience anyway and I have tried a lot of strings that have been suggested on this forum like velocity/cream combo that lots of people were happy with and I personally found to be very average with no real pluses . I am using Head Extremes at 45lbs + or - 3lbs depending on conditions
 
Interesting, I have never tried TCS. Have you ever tried Prince Beast (or as it's now called, Tour XP), and if so, how did it compare to TCS?

I noted in the TW review of TCS that they said the one real downside is it bags out pretty quick in the tension department. What has been your experience in that regard, and are you a big string breaker?

Thanks.
 
ashridge said:
Interesting, I have never tried TCS. Have you ever tried Prince Beast (or as it's now called, Tour XP), and if so, how did it compare to TCS?

I noted in the TW review of TCS that they said the one real downside is it bags out pretty quick in the tension department. What has been your experience in that regard, and are you a big string breaker?

Thanks.
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I cannot speak for TCS... but Beast/XP is a VERY under rated poly. And it is a steal right now. Pockets well and is reasonably slick and comfy. Holds tension better than about 90% of polys. I use 18g sometimes and it holds tension fine. 18g strings are notorious for tension loss (looking at you Cyclone)
 
ashridge said:
What is the best "formula", if you will, for ball pocketing? Is it more Racquet, String, or Tension, or is it truly a combination of those?
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Very good observation which I appreciate.

We can only speculate of course without clear measureable definition what ball pocketing. But it is the FEEL.. we all have looking for, but everyone has a different preference. My thought is it is the synergy of all that plus your hand.

Two identical string bed, i.e. string, tension, but different hoop, i.e. inertial linear and angular, will react differently to a same impact. --> different feel.
Two identical hoops, but different string bed, i.e. resulting different stiffness from string + tension, react differently to a same impact --> different feel.
Now two identical hoop and string bed, hit with a stronger "hand", after you say chop wood for two weeks, your input force/racket path/pace may be different --> different feel.

Thus same setup may not feel the same after you got stronger or weaker. Gosh! tennis is complicated.
 
ashridge said:
I can say this regarding the definition of "ball pocketing": in my 2 new Phantom's, the Pro 100 feels decidedly like *racquet* flex, and with the Pro 100p I seem to feel less *racquet* flex and more of what I call "ball pocketing", or "dwell time", to use your term. In all of the set-up's I described above where I felt noticeable "ball pocketing", in every instance, the strings felt "lively". Whether that was because of the specific string, or the tension at which I had it strung, I can't say for sure. Prince Tour XP (previously Prince Beast) felt like a paradox to me. It felt *very* lively, not at all muted, and had awesome spin, but yet it felt amazingly controlled. Time and again when I played with it fresh, I was hitting shots that I was just sure were going to sail long and then they just dove down right inside the baseline. My opponent thought they were going out too and just shook his head when seeing them drop in. It gave me the confidence to really swing out on my strokes because it almost felt like I couldn't hit it out. I would say that Monogut ZX 17 at 57x52 also felt almost the same amount of "lively" as Tour XP at 37x33, and had very good ball pocketing sensation, but with less control and a little less spin. One other thing both those set-ups had in common was a high launch angle and the bottom falling out of the shot and frequently dropping inside the baseline.

The "ball pocketing" sensation I'm describing is the feeling of the ball stretching and stretching and stretching the strings till they won't stretch any more and then just catapulting off the strings in an instant. That's exactly what it feels like. It is a different feeling than when I hit with my Phantom Pro 100 and feel the *racquet* flex.
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You couldnt describe it any better, that's exactly what feel is in tennis for me. ashridge I wonder how did you get on with the phantoms (Im thinking of getting the Pro 100p myself ) and what combo ended up working best for you. I'll appreciate your help, I've been straggling to get that feel back for the past few years, since the guy who used to string my raquet closed down. Then I started to try different raquets and strings but it's never been the same.
 
volkl cyclone tour 1.30mm (16g) is an awesome poly that offers great ball pocketing as well as comfort spin power. Thanks @g4driver for the recommendation of this amazing poly. As he stated, it is important to use 1.30mm version because the thinner versions have atrocious tension maintenance. I used VCT mains with SPPP 1.18mm crosses and it was absolute heaven. Disclaimer: ive only hit once for 2 hours so far.
VCT doesnt seem to have as sharp of a profile as tourna silver 7 tour so I didnt think I would get good bite/spin on the ball but I was mistaken. I could hear the ‘TCH’ sound of the string snapback and while the bite/spin wasnt as good as a sharp shaped poly, it was still quite adequate and the comfort/power was much more worth the tradeoff of losing some of the spin.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
So, what is most responsible for that pocketing sensation, Racquet, String, or Tension?
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I am going to throw a fourth possibility out there for you to consider and that is stringing process. I've been doing this for years with my Babolat sticks:

String the first three (or four) mains on each side of the center minus 4 lbs of your normal reference tension. String the next four at your normal tension. Then string the first five crosses at your normal reference tension and the nine at minus 4 lbs of the number. Then string the last five crosses at your normal reference tension. If you want to "feel" or "pocketing" give this a try. If you do a side-by-side test, you will immediately feel the difference.
 
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IMO ball pocketing is the feeling that the ball has more dwell time on strings. Generally more flexible frames will have better ball pocketing and feel. Lower tensions will give you better feel and pocketing. I like old school flexy racquets like the new Blade v7 98 16 x 19 and the Angell K7 Red. You definitely get great feel and pocketing with these racquets. IMO you lose alot of feel with the stiffer wider beam racquets.
 
"ball pocketing" usually denotes the string bed properties.
I dearly love that feel when that happens with natural gut strung tightly with high impact, heavy balls.

I used to love cushion I feel with Volkl C10 pro and old Yonex frames that I ususally describe as racquet "flex".
 
LocNetMonster said:
I am going to throw a fourth possibility out there for you to consider and that is stringing process. I've been doing this for years with my Babolat sticks:

String the first three (or four) mains on each side of the center minus 4 lbs of your normal reference tension. String the next four at your normal tension. Then string the first five crosses at your normal reference tension and the nine at minus 4 lbs of the number. Then string the last five crosses at your normal reference tension. If you want to "feel" or "pocketing" give this a try. If you do a side-by-side test, you will immediately feel the difference.
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@Injured Again actually does the opposite of this, stringing the outer mains/crosses lower so that stringbed is more forgiving on offcenter hits. What exactly does your stringing method provide...does the lower tension make it a lot harder to keep the ball in from control issues even though it provides better ball pocketing? Also, what happens on offcenter hits?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
And the conclusion is tension since it can be determined subjectively with different frames, strings and tension. Find the right DT via ref tension and your sweet spot ± 6 cm increases to the point where you feel the 'dwell time.' 8-B
 
blai212 said:
@Injured Again actually does the opposite of this, stringing the outer mains/crosses lower so that stringbed is more forgiving on offcenter hits. What exactly does your stringing method provide...does the lower tension make it a lot harder to keep the ball in from control issues even though it provides better ball pocketing? Also, what happens on offcenter hits?
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I do know of one person who strings like that, in a Pure Drive with a softer string. The player is a flat hitter who hits the sweetspot very consistently. The idea was that softening just the center strings adds extra cushioning to the stiff frame but that the higher tensions surrounding those strings creates a stable ring of strings around the sweetspot so as to retain control.

I hit with that racquet once and found the stringbed to be inconsistent for my swingpath. When I slightly mis-hit on a shot I'm trying to use moderate or greater levels of topspin, I got what felt like an unusually high launch angle compared to a hit right in the middle of the sweetspot.

As to ball pocketing, I believe different players have slightly different definitions of what it is, and different players may not experience a pocketing feel from the same racquet.

For me, pocketing is a feel of long dwell time along with the sensation of the ball flattening against the strings and the stringbed having enough give to partly encapsulate the ball. This requires a string with some elasticity but firms up rapidly as it is stretched, along with a racquet with enough mass to not be significantly deflected by the impact. A string with elasticity that can encapsulate the ball but isn't stiff enough to flatten the ball, like gut, doesn't have as strong of a pocketing feel as a good poly string to me.

Some players with slower swing speed than me have tried my setup and have said it feels like a club, with no feedback and no pocketing. I've also tried their racquets and I get a catapult or trampoline kind of feeling when I swing hard. Pocketing is hard to define and different for different swing styles, which is why I try to include videos of me hitting so others can judge for themselves how applicable my impressions might be for them.
 
LocNetMonster said:
I am going to throw a fourth possibility out there for you to consider and that is stringing process. I've been doing this for years with my Babolat sticks:

String the first three (or four) mains on each side of the center minus 4 lbs of your normal reference tension. String the next four at your normal tension. Then string the first five crosses at your normal reference tension and the nine at minus 4 lbs of the number. Then string the last five crosses at your normal reference tension. If you want to "feel" or "pocketing" give this a try. If you do a side-by-side test, you will immediately feel the difference.
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Has anyone tried this? I like to string the longest strings tighter
 
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same setup with same racquet typically can produce the same results....unless they are Wilson frames!!

that same setup on a different frame will always equal a different result. the answer is not one thing but modding and tweaking continually with different things to get close to that desired result.

the racquet has to be the baseline with strings, tensions and modding the next steps.
 
Muppet said:
If your stroke is slow enough you won't have to wait. If it's not so slow go up a lb.
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Sorry I don't understand. The OP is talking about increasing ball pocketing. Why go up a lb if that is the goal.

My question is what is the point. What does ball pocketing do for your game? The ball is gone after you feel any kind of pocketing.
 
Shroud said:
My question is what is the point. What does ball pocketing do for your game? The ball is gone after you feel any kind of pocketing.
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I used to be fully in that camp, that feel is unimportant because there's no way what you sense about an impact can have any effect on where that ball is going. But as I've come to compete against more players who have the ability to make me feel uncomfortable on the court, whose objective is to rob as much of my self-belief as possible, I've come to really understand the psychological importance of confidence.

As tennis players, we have little control over what happens on court. The wind will blow at random times, the sun comes and goes behind the clouds, and most of all our opponents are never hitting the shot we want them to. There is a psychological need to have some level of control, and control leads to confidence, and that leads to a higher level of play.

The control part is a lot of what you hear preached. Have a routine in between points. Ritualize the service preparation. Do things at your pace and your timing because in those moments, you have control.

The confidence part is harder and more fleeting. It is helped by having a racquet that swings comfortably, and by having an impact feel that helps you believe that when you make clean contact and receive that pocketing sensation, that the ball is going to go where and how you aimed it.

Ten years ago, I was totally dismissive of this, and now I realize how important it is. In many ways, it's kind of like saying to your opoonent "You've been serving great and getting so many first serves in" knowing that their next service game, you're more likely than not to find them serving worse. I lost a lot of matches where I have been technically the better ball striker and the better athlete because I so vehemently discounted this psychological side and ended up being blind as to why I came out on the short end.

I will say, though, that it is also easy to get too carried away. If a player feels like things have to be perfect, then anything less robs confidence. I know a couple of obsessive tinkerers and if I can convince them that worn strings make the hoop one gram lighter and alters their swingweight, I'm pretty sure that will erode their confidence and definitely will boost mines knowing I'm almost assured a win at that point.

Humans are just strange!
 
Injured Again said:
I used to be fully in that camp, that feel is unimportant because there's no way what you sense about an impact can have any effect on where that ball is going. But as I've come to compete against more players who have the ability to make me feel uncomfortable on the court, whose objective is to rob as much of my self-belief as possible, I've come to really understand the psychological importance of confidence.

As tennis players, we have little control over what happens on court. The wind will blow at random times, the sun comes and goes behind the clouds, and most of all our opponents are never hitting the shot we want them to. There is a psychological need to have some level of control, and control leads to confidence, and that leads to a higher level of play.

The control part is a lot of what you hear preached. Have a routine in between points. Ritualize the service preparation. Do things at your pace and your timing because in those moments, you have control.

The confidence part is harder and more fleeting. It is helped by having a racquet that swings comfortably, and by having an impact feel that helps you believe that when you make clean contact and receive that pocketing sensation, that the ball is going to go where and how you aimed it.

Ten years ago, I was totally dismissive of this, and now I realize how important it is. In many ways, it's kind of like saying to your opoonent "You've been serving great and getting so many first serves in" knowing that their next service game, you're more likely than not to find them serving worse. I lost a lot of matches where I have been technically the better ball striker and the better athlete because I so vehemently discounted this psychological side and ended up being blind as to why I came out on the short end.

I will say, though, that it is also easy to get too carried away. If a player feels like things have to be perfect, then anything less robs confidence. I know a couple of obsessive tinkerers and if I can convince them that worn strings make the hoop one gram lighter and alters their swingweight, I'm pretty sure that will erode their confidence and definitely will boost mines knowing I'm almost assured a win at that point.

Humans are just strange!
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I totally agree with this. Though what you wrote is my exact argument against ball pocketing. Ball pocketing as you describe it CHANGES. Its different on EVERY shot. That wrecks my confidence. Those balls that are off? OMG that gets in my head. Why no pocketing on that shot? What did I mess up? ETC.

My stick is a board. Pretty much every shot feels the same unless its way off. So my confidence soars because the feed back I get is "everything is fine" and consistently it feels the same. Do not misunderstand, I get enough feedback on the really bad shots to know when its majorly bad.

Sometimes that feeling can be the flex. I was in the playtest for the RF97A and that stick drove me nuts. Some shots the damn thing flexed and some it was a board. Got me in my head big time. Was focused on the flex and not the point as much.

Also the amount of pocketing changes every shot and so does the launch angle. Tennis is hard enough without ANOTHER VARIABLE variable to manage.

If it works for you, great. You are a better player than I am for sure.
 
Shroud said:
I totally agree with this. Though what you wrote is my exact argument against ball pocketing. Ball pocketing as you describe it CHANGES. Its different on EVERY shot. That wrecks my confidence. Those balls that are off? OMG that gets in my head. Why no pocketing on that shot? What did I mess up? ETC.

My stick is a board. Pretty much every shot feels the same unless its way off. So my confidence soars because the feed back I get is "everything is fine" and consistently it feels the same. Do not misunderstand, I get enough feedback on the really bad shots to know when its majorly bad.

Sometimes that feeling can be the flex. I was in the playtest for the RF97A and that stick drove me nuts. Some shots the damn thing flexed and some it was a board. Got me in my head big time. Was focused on the flex and not the point as much.

Also the amount of pocketing changes every shot and so does the launch angle. Tennis is hard enough without ANOTHER VARIABLE variable to manage.

If it works for you, great. You are a better player than I am for sure.
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I guess it's a matter of perspective. To me, if I catch a ball cleanly in the relatively large sweetspot of my SW104, the pocketing feel is relatively identical with each hit. The pocketing feel does change when the strings lose tension and/or elasticity, which is why I think most players lose confidence when the strings are nearing or at end of life.

It also does feel different and with no pocketing if I mis-hit badly. In between, there are gradients of pocketing/jarring depending on how much outside the sweetspot I make contact. I use that as feedback that my opponent is making the ball do something I'm not expecting, or that my footwork/positioning wasn't good enough to square up the sweetspot on the ball. Whenever I don't make clean contact, I don't expect the ball to go where I've aimed it, and to be honest, I can usually tell where the ball is going to end up when I mis-hit. I think experienced tennis players all know that to some degree. Sometimes we have to dive with our backs to the net trying to stretch on the backhand to reach a tough serve. And when I mis-hit those, I can tell from that mis-hit whether or not the ball has a chance of making it into the court even though I'm facing the back fence. If not, I don't even try to recover, but if the way the racquet is jarred from the bad contact makes me think there's a chance it's going to go in, I try as hard as I can to quickly recover balance and get myself facing forward. I see that same thing in so many players that I think with enough tennis, we all just know. In the same way, if I slightly mis-time my contact point but still catch it cleanly, I will clearly know immediately if a ball is going to go two or three feet long.

So I take the pocketing sensation and draw confidence from having made clean contact. Outside of that, I'll hopefully be able to take the information from the feedback on how I didn't hit it cleanly and try to correct and hit it cleanly the next time. Even that process, if I do it successfully, builds confidence. And for me, confidence helps fight frustration.

Also totally agree with your point about tennis being hard enough, and I think what I said about the obsessive tinkerer speaks to that. But we're all different in what gives us confidence. Nadal gets his from his underwear pull, shoulder, shoulder, ear, nose, ear, nose routine. I get it from the pocketing feel and then if the ball actually went where I aimed it. You get it from having an identical boardlike feel for the majority of your shots. Someone else may get it from wearing their favorite lucky socks. If it works, it works!
 
Regarding consistent pocketing feel - I use a copoly/synthetic gut hybrid with good initial pocketing feel, but the synthetic gut I have (Forten Sweet 16) isn't particularly slippery and the string bed slowly locks up over 30 minutes of hitting. The pocketing feel decreases with it until I feel like I'm hitting with a board and my confidence suffers as a result.

I've tried restringing just the synthetic gut crosses and it's actually good ... for another 30 minutes. I can only do this once per set of copoly mains though - they tend to snap quickly when I tried restringing crosses for a 2nd time.

Yes, I'm trying other string combinations including poly crosses. I have to be careful since my elbow is just barely able to handle the softest polys.
 
Shroud said:
Sorry I don't understand. The OP is talking about increasing ball pocketing. Why go up a lb if that is the goal.

My question is what is the point. What does ball pocketing do for your game? The ball is gone after you feel any kind of pocketing.
Click to expand...
Ball pocketing comes in degrees and it's easy to over-shoot the amount of pocketing you need. The faster and steeper your stroke through the ball, the less pocketing will serve you. If you have a flat slow stroke, you may want a higher degree of pocketing. But this is according to preference. But I don't see someone with a fast stroke benefiting from a soft string bed.
 
BenC said:
Regarding consistent pocketing feel - I use a copoly/synthetic gut hybrid with good initial pocketing feel, but the synthetic gut I have (Forten Sweet 16) isn't particularly slippery and the string bed slowly locks up over 30 minutes of hitting. The pocketing feel decreases with it until I feel like I'm hitting with a board and my confidence suffers as a result.

I've tried restringing just the synthetic gut crosses and it's actually good ... for another 30 minutes. I can only do this once per set of copoly mains though - they tend to snap quickly when I tried restringing crosses for a 2nd time.

Yes, I'm trying other string combinations including poly crosses. I have to be careful since my elbow is just barely able to handle the softest polys.
Click to expand...

i would suggest NOT using synthetic gut crosses...it is simply garbage in terms of playability duration as you so accurately described the string bed locking up. I use VCT 16g mains/SPPP 17L crosses at 42lbs in my VCP 100 and it feels quite soft for my sensitive arm. If that is not soft enough for you then I guess natural gut/poly hybrid is the answer. I have that at 50/47 in my other VCP 100 and it is similar reference tension. An injured arm is a nonplayable arm so comfort is first and foremost priority.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
blai212 said:
What exactly does your stringing method provide...does the lower tension make it a lot harder to keep the ball in from control issues even though it provides better ball pocketing?
Click to expand...

My hypothesis is the lower tension in the center of the racquet creates a "pocket" that allows the ball to sink deeper into the string bed on impact. When I connect with the sweet spot, pace and spin are almost palatable and completely effort less to generate. Control never seems to be an issue. But, it is important I think to point out the stringing process I use really seems to work well with Babolat's grommet system. I've tried the same process in a Wilson and a Prince Racquet. Neither produce the same feel or "pocketing" to the degree I get with Pure Storm and Pure Control sticks. It could be that the variance between the center 8 strings and the outer four need on each side needs to be greater. I just picked up a Head Radical and have to see how it compares using the traditional method verse my center loose method. So another variable to consider in the quest for the perfect pocket is frame and grommet design.


blai212 said:
Also, what happens on offcenter hits?
Click to expand...

Unless I mishit so bad that the ball makes contact with frame and stings simultaneously, the ball stays in play. It may not go as deep as I was aiming or thread the needle I was hoping for, but the ball crosses the net generally.
 
LocNetMonster said:
In theory, depending on string bed tension, I can see that being true. Likewise, one could posit that a stiffer frame would be better as well.
Click to expand...

If you took the same racket and made all the variables the same, strings, tension etc and only changed weight, I've found ball pocketing is much better with a heavier racket. From a physics stand point this is obvious fact to me.

Now the flexible vs stiff racket I can't say because it does vary on each stroke for me, and I'm sure each player depending on their stroke.
 
2ndServe said:
Now the flexible vs stiff racket I can't say because it does vary on each stroke for me, and I'm sure each player depending on their stroke.
Click to expand...

The flexible vs stiff - with identical swing speed and penetration - It stands to reason the stiff frame would deliver more pocketing even if the two are the exact same mass. The flexible frame would bend as it absorbed energy from contact with the ball not allowing the string bed to deform as much as the strings in a stiff frame. It would seem, in order to get the same dwell time, the flexible racquet string bed would need to be looser. Does that sound right? This makes sense in my head.
 
It's all about tension for me. Low tension = lots of pocketing. High tension = little to no pocketing.

I string fb poly in the low 40s because I like lots of dwell time and pocketing.
 
Shaolin said:
It's all about tension for me. Low tension = lots of pocketing. High tension = little to no pocketing.

I string fb poly in the low 40s because I like lots of dwell time and pocketing.
Click to expand...

Pocketing gives me control in most opinions but where's the line between pocketing and the ball launching too far/launch angle and control.
I've tried 15lbs to 70lbs, I like dwell time but at certain low tensions it's just very hard to control
 
2ndServe said:
Pocketing gives me control in most opinions but where's the line between pocketing and the ball launching too far/launch angle and control.
I've tried 15lbs to 70lbs, I like dwell time but at certain low tensions it's just very hard to control
Click to expand...

That's the trick isn't it. Finding the perfect tension for the particular string you're using. Too tight is harsh and too loose gets unpredictable and difficult to control. Somewhere in the middle is the sweet spot. I'm just above where I want to be currently with my string. I have it just a hair too tight, but the only stroke that is really affected to the point I don't like it is the big flat serve. I find I can get more topspin and jump on it with the strings just a bit loose. Of course if I go too far then the groundstrokes start to fly at times. I think I'm within a couple of pounds of what I will end up sticking with long term. Probably need about 2-3 more stringings to be sure.
 
Shaolin said:
It's all about tension for me. Low tension = lots of pocketing. High tension = little to no pocketing.

I string fb poly in the low 40s because I like lots of dwell time and pocketing.
Click to expand...

I find totally the opposite, and I think the crux of this discussion is that pocketing means different things to different players.

Low tensions for me don't give me a pocketing feel, because I need to have the sensation that the ball is being compressed against the stringbed. A low tension stringbed feels like the strings are contributing to most of the elasticity, and that the ball gets flung from the stringbed rather than being directed from the stringbed as the ball rebounds from a compressed state.
 
Injured Again said:
I find totally the opposite, and I think the crux of this discussion is that pocketing means different things to different players.

Low tensions for me don't give me a pocketing feel, because I need to have the sensation that the ball is being compressed against the stringbed. A low tension stringbed feels like the strings are contributing to most of the elasticity, and that the ball gets flung from the stringbed rather than being directed from the stringbed as the ball rebounds from a compressed state.
Click to expand...
There cant be such discussion about pocketing. Its stringbed deflection. It is however possible that you dont like it but strings giving in and then returning their energy to the outcoming ball is exactly what they are meant to do.. Otherwise you could just as wel use a frying pan.
 
ron schaap said:
There cant be such discussion about pocketing. Its stringbed deflection. It is however possible that you dont like it but strings giving in and then returning their energy to the outcoming ball is exactly what they are meant to do.. Otherwise you could just as wel use a frying pan.
Click to expand...

I'm not disputing that strings are energetically less lossy when deforming and rebounding when compared to the ball deforming and rebounding. And outside of extraordinary strings or tensions, there will also be some give to the strings and that is a given. I'm just say that **FOR ME**, a pocketing feeling includes the sensation that the ball is flattened against the stringbed and it is the rebound process of the ball that takes longer than the strings rebounding, and thus gives the sensation of an extended dwell period.
 
Injured Again said:
I'm not disputing that strings are energetically less lossy when deforming and rebounding when compared to the ball deforming and rebounding. And outside of extraordinary strings or tensions, there will also be some give to the strings and that is a given. I'm just say that **FOR ME**, a pocketing feeling includes the sensation that the ball is flattened against the stringbed and it is the rebound process of the ball that takes longer than the strings rebounding, and thus gives the sensation of an extended dwell period.
Click to expand...
I'm thinking the opposite. The feel of a ball that is being pocketed is felt as the ball sinks into the strings rather than the ball being deformed much at all. Then the pocket shoots the ball with great acceleration. This occurs more with gut and multi than with SG or poly. Ball compression is just the opposite of what happens with pocketing. That is not to say that it is wrong.
 
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