Baseline Vision

TagUrIt

Hall of Fame
Could be better or worse than the In/Out tennis device. :unsure:

 

amalguy

New User
Seems interesting but not the same customers target. For clubs at 200€ per month.
And phone required, no touch screen on the camera device.
But really bigger so should be more reliable I guess.
So if I'm not wrong, still no In/Out like device on the market.
Too bad that In/Out is not enough reliable
 

2ndServe

Hall of Fame
Seems interesting but not the same customers target. For clubs at 200€ per month.
And phone required, no touch screen on the camera device.
But really bigger so should be more reliable I guess.
So if I'm not wrong, still no In/Out like device on the market.
Too bad that In/Out is not enough reliable

I wonder if 2 iPhones with swingvision mounted on each side and sharing info with each other could make for a way better in out device.

I'm almost sure this would be the best and most accurate recreational ball calling at a reasonable cost.
 
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amalguy

New User
I don't share your point of view.
Swing vision is not free for anything other than a try (150€ per year) and is restricted to iphone because no android currently had an AI engine strong enough to run their algorithms.
And IPhones are not very inexpensive
What about if a ball hit it ?
I'm rather old school and prefer specialised devices. And I prefer the video from the net rather than the baseline.
 

swupnil

Rookie
Curious @amalguy do you also prefer watching pro tennis from the net or from behind the baseline? :unsure:

SwingVision is limited in its device support today because it is that bleeding edge. In 5-10 years it will be able to run on a cheap $50 android phone. It is an inevitability and a matter of when, not if.

The only reason we charge a subscription is cloud storage. Any other service, including Baseline, will eventually have to charge for that too. Otherwise they simply can’t offer that or they will run out of money from all of the cloud costs.

Compared to other services like iCloud we are super competitively priced given you get lifetime unlimited storage. We also save our customers hundreds of hours of time in being able to watch the video without dead time.

All of that, in addition to the automatic stats (and soon, score) charting, makes the subscription a great value in my opinion.
 

smboogie

Semi-Pro
For a Club setup swingvision doesn't work b/c it's BYOD and I have talked with people that use it and they say it's good for training but not for calling lines during a match or giving accurate stats.
In/Out has a club setup of different pricing tiers from $549 - $1245.
Baseline Vision seems like the new kid on the block but not sure how it can compete as it's 1 camera system is $1500.

For comparison the in/out top setup with 2 Net devices w/cages + 8 line cameras is $1245.
 

swupnil

Rookie
@smboogie with a correct setup on the fence we are seeing superhuman line calling. This is compared to a 16 high speed camera setup for validation of in/out calls. There’s a lot of variability with the user error that occurs in the wild across our hundreds of thousands of customers.

A $150 iPhone SE is capable of this. It would
be pretty trivial for us to build a permanent solution for clubs that has wired power/internet for these phones and provide live streaming, officiating, etc. on every court for roughly the cost of just one device from the competition. And this will only get cheaper every year.

It’s not hard to imagine a world where every club can purchase a Swing Kit for less than $100 a court.
 

smboogie

Semi-Pro
@smboogie with a correct setup on the fence we are seeing superhuman line calling. This is compared to a 16 high speed camera setup for validation of in/out calls. There’s a lot of variability with the user error that occurs in the wild across our hundreds of thousands of customers.

A $150 iPhone SE is capable of this. It would
be pretty trivial for us to build a permanent solution for clubs that has wired power/internet for these phones and provide live streaming, officiating, etc. on every court for roughly the cost of just one device from the competition. And this will only get cheaper every year.

It’s not hard to imagine a world where every club can purchase a Swing Kit for less than $100 a court.
Hi @swupnil thanks for the reply! I can't imagine a single camera on 1 baseline fence can compare to a multi cam setup with regards to accuracy, however, if there are other permanent options I would be interested in learning more about them. I know there are huge improvements coming across all the solutions as the technology gets cheaper and more accurate.
I'm keeping an eye on the big players as I learn more about what they offer as well as how more permanent club solutions come about. With the ATP/WTA events going to electronic line calling I imagine it's only a matter of time before rec/club players want to experience something similar.
 

swupnil

Rookie
@smboogie I would be willing to bet that SwingVision will be that long term permanent solution. I understand the skepticism of a single camera solution but having worked on camera-based detection at Tesla Autopilot and now this, I have no doubt we will get superhuman line calling from one camera. These iPhone cameras are getting scarily better every year, as does the processing power. It is basically inevitable.

Sure, theoretically multiple camera gives you strictly more accuracy, but at a certain point if you’re 10x better than humans, and getting better each year, it doesn’t really make a difference to use multi cam.

In the limit, the cost and usability of the product, not the accuracy, will be the differentiating factors that will ultimately win the mass market of players and clubs over. Anybody who is trying to make their own hardware will have a very tough time competing with the pace of Apple and Google’s hardware innovations, supply chain expertise, customer support, etc.
 

smboogie

Semi-Pro
@smboogie I would be willing to bet that SwingVision will be that long term permanent solution. I understand the skepticism of a single camera solution but having worked on camera-based detection at Tesla Autopilot and now this, I have no doubt we will get superhuman line calling from one camera. These iPhone cameras are getting scarily better every year, as does the processing power. It is basically inevitable.

Sure, theoretically multiple camera gives you strictly more accuracy, but at a certain point if you’re 10x better than humans, and getting better each year, it doesn’t really make a difference to use multi cam.

In the limit, the cost and usability of the product, not the accuracy, will be the differentiating factors that will ultimately win the mass market of players and clubs over. Anybody who is trying to make their own hardware will have a very tough time competing with the pace of Apple and Google’s hardware innovations, supply chain expertise, customer support, etc.
100% agree as making your own HW will always be a limiting factor, great point. I think with regards to personal use I agree swingvision is the easier solution b/c it doesn't require additional equipment to the court (other than a mount) and when you upgrade your phone, Swingvision upgrades with it.

At a certain point accuracy really doesn't matter once a threshold is reached, it's all just gravy.

For clubs/facilities they will want a more sturdy, durable, permanent solution they can manage as an asset.
 

swupnil

Rookie
Yep @smboogie agree with you there. I think our approach to clubs will be different where we build a weather proof enclosure that can house a remotely-controllable smartphone, easily swapable for upgrades, and still be way way cheaper than the competition.
 

nyta2

Legend
anyone else try this? the vid from felix is compelling... thinking of pulling the trigger...
i'm gun shy because i bought the crappy inout device... waste of $200... which isn't terrible,...
but i'd be annoyed if bsaeline vision ends up being a $2000 waste.
alternative of course is swingVision...
 

conrch01

New User
anyone else try this? the vid from felix is compelling... thinking of pulling the trigger...
i'm gun shy because i bought the crappy inout device... waste of $200... which isn't terrible,...
but i'd be annoyed if bsaeline vision ends up being a $2000 waste.
alternative of course is swingVision...
I recently purchased one and have found it incredibly accurate on its calls. I followed this thread and also Felix's video and was a bit nervous to splurge on this for my team, but am pretty happy as of now. The only thing cons as of now,: 1) there are no forehand / backhand stats, just groundstrokes 2) you cannot record on a court with pickleball lines. Other than that, I'm understanding that there will be more 'games' and updates as they develop them. I am incredibly impressed.
 

nyta2

Legend
I recently purchased one and have found it incredibly accurate on its calls. I followed this thread and also Felix's video and was a bit nervous to splurge on this for my team, but am pretty happy as of now. The only thing cons as of now,: 1) there are no forehand / backhand stats, just groundstrokes 2) you cannot record on a court with pickleball lines. Other than that, I'm understanding that there will be more 'games' and updates as they develop them. I am incredibly impressed.
thx for the update.... i'm tempted... :p
would use it for my hs teams, my practices...
 

conrch01

New User
I'm presently using it for my HS team and finding it really beneficial. It's also fun to challenge calls in practice...:-D
 

crunchy97

New User
I've been very interested myself. I'm curious if they've introduced firmware updates along the way.

I've been using SwingVision for several months and am impressed with the functionality but very disappointed with the implementation. Uploads take forever so that functionality is pretty useless. I really have no desire to have cloud storage of the videos anyhow. @swupnil you mentioned that the monthly fee is because of storage -- can you release a version without storage at all??

Also, the app reliability (and phone battery life) has been so bad that we just use a GoPro camera to capture the video, then run it through the macOS app for processing.

A mounted solution like the Baseline Vision is extremely tempting. I get that the world wants to use existing cameras and processors on phones, but the UX just sucks. I'm with @amalguy on this one.
 

conrch01

New User
I’m also with you too. I love Swing for videos, but the real reason I wanted Swing was to collect data. In theory (and hopefully in the future) the data collected should be fairly accurate; however, regardless of how I set up the camera, I have issues with accuracy.

The Baseline Vision is way more accurate at this point. However, it currently does not track forehands vs backhands.

Both have great potential. I have found Baseline Vision more beneficial for my team at this time.
 

crunchy97

New User
To make the Swing app usable, I'd really have to buy a dedicated phone for it and that brings the cost in line with Baseline.

At the moment, Swing only makes live line calls at the "max" level, right? I'm very curious about your experience with accuracy. Where I play indoors, I can't elevate the camera high enough to be optimal -- the curtain rails are too low, so the line calls on the far side service line are sometimes questionable. That's where the Baseline 2-sided camera setup would make things more equivalent and is compelling for me.

Also... can anyone tell me how to play back video within Swing frame-by-frame? For the life of me, I haven't found the secret keys to use for this so I always go back to the original source video and play back there.
 

crunchy97

New User
I was told by the Baseline tech support that they're working on RPM spin detection. That should be interesting. I've got mine on order now. They're out of stock until the end of the year. Looking forward to playing with it!
 
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