Basic question on tail weighing a balanced racquet like the Blade?

snr

Semi-Pro
Hey guys,

Probably a really simple question for you guys who understand.

I'm going to ask the question about a racquet like the Blade; a racquet that has a pretty even balance, and one that most agree can be used at higher levels of play without lead due to the fact that it has quite a bit of plow through even with its relatively light static weight.

Now, say I add a leather grip (we'll argue the synthetic vs. leather grip weights after) to get some weight in the grip do I reduce the "potential plowthrough" or negate any of the weight that is in the hoop?

Basically, another way of saying what I'm asking is, will adding weight to the grip just make it more headlight while leaving all the other playing properties the same? (relatively good plow and stability for its static weight)?

Or, will this alter and give up the Blade's advantage?
 

Arti

Professional
One cannot decrease the swing weight of a racquet by adding weight, so in the case of a leather grip the racquet will feel slightly more headlight while still providing the same plow through. It's a preference on how the racquet maneuvers with different balances, but the swing weight should remain the same, if not go up a few points. What I would do its add around 2 grams at 3 and 9 on the frame to maintain feel.
 

snr

Semi-Pro
One cannot decrease the swing weight of a racquet by adding weight, so in the case of a leather grip the racquet will feel slightly more headlight while still providing the same plow through. It's a preference on how the racquet maneuvers with different balances, but the swing weight should remain the same, if not go up a few points. What I would do its add around 2 grams at 3 and 9 on the frame to maintain feel.
Yes I had learned that from here that one cannot reduce SW. I think I was framing it wrong in my head that by altering the characteristics (balance) the SW effect would be changed too which you suggest is not the case.

Just wondering, what do you mean by "maintain feel" ? Would some lead not maintain the even balance more so? I didn't think the Blade needed twist weight.

i have a blade with a leather grip. works wonderful
Great to hear, may give it a try.
 

alexdoro

New User
Yes I had learned that from here that one cannot reduce SW. I think I was framing it wrong in my head that by altering the characteristics (balance) the SW effect would be changed too which you suggest is not the case.

Just wondering, what do you mean by "maintain feel" ? Would some lead not maintain the even balance more so? I didn't think the Blade needed twist weight.



Great to hear, may give it a try.
When you change to a leather grip (which is heavier) the balance is affected, it becomes more HL so to maintain the original balance and "feel" you should counter balance with lead at 3&9
 

EdMcMush

Professional
Yes I had learned that from here that one cannot reduce SW. I think I was framing it wrong in my head that by altering the characteristics (balance) the SW effect would be changed too which you suggest is not the case.

Just wondering, what do you mean by "maintain feel" ? Would some lead not maintain the even balance more so? I didn't think the Blade needed twist weight.



Great to hear, may give it a try.
yes from my personal stand point, the stock was a bit to head heavy. The leather made it "easier" to swing although the SW can only go up. But it still gave me the power and control I crave.
 
One cannot decrease the swing weight of a racquet by adding weight, so in the case of a leather grip the racquet will feel slightly more headlight while still providing the same plow through. It's a preference on how the racquet maneuvers with different balances, but the swing weight should remain the same, if not go up a few points. What I would do its add around 2 grams at 3 and 9 on the frame to maintain feel.
When you say add 2g at 3 and 9, are you saying 2g total, or each spot?
 

Lavs

Hall of Fame
Leather grip will add some points in both Balance and SW. Probably you will notice that the racket swings a bit faster but still it will remain sluggish. I tried Blade BLX (gold one) and thought it was rather hard to swing. Leather grip did not help

Sent from my SM-G389F using Tapatalk
 
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Attila_the_gorilla

Guest
In my experience tailweighting the Blade would make your swing less explosive but more controllable and maneouvrable. I agree the Blade doesn't need a higher twistweight, unless you want to substantially increase the swingweight too.
 

lwto

Hall of Fame
In my experience tailweighting the Blade would make your swing less explosive but more controllable and maneouvrable. I agree the Blade doesn't need a higher twistweight, unless you want to substantially increase the swingweight too.
I"ve always wondered about that.
The only issue, well physical issue is the increased weight, if you can handle the weight, it's not a problem. Of course, it's easier to swing a lighter head than a heavier head. Here's the thing, why would it be less explosive if the head weight is the same? Some could argue that by increasing the base weight may actually make for a more explosive swing, since after all, swing speed is where you get your explosive shots right? If the same mass is hitting the ball, what have you lost? On the other hand if you do increase your base weight and you have the strength to swing it properly, you have gained not only control, but racquet head speed which equates to more power. Of course I can see your point, the heavier head(relative to the racquet) may give you more power(I don't know) since it's acting like a sledge hammer in that, you just release it and the centrifugal forces of a top heavy object plays it's part in helping you heave that head across the hitting zone, albeit with some loss of control. It's a mystery to me.
 
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Attila_the_gorilla

Guest
Of course I can see your point, the heavier head(relative to the racquet) may give you more power(I don't know) since it's acting like a sledge hammer in that, you just release it and the centrifugal forces of a top heavy object plays it's part in helping you heave that head across the hitting zone, albeit with some loss of control. It's a mystery to me.
That's pretty much my experience. I can get faster RHS with a stock Blade than a tail weighted one. Once the racket head gets moving, it stays moving. With a tail weighted one, your speed can be more controlled and also your wrist has more chance to make little adjustments if needed. The shorter (more headlight) balance would also mean that the racket head doesn't lag so much on a forehand, for example.
On the far end of the spectrum you get doubles specialists who use very much tailweighted rackets, and it suits their compact, pushy strokes, in fact it stops the racket from tipping over at all on volleys, despite usually using high swingweights.
 
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Simplicius

Semi-Pro
The basic changes are:
1. The sweet spot goes few cms down (to the handle) and
2. The hitting weight (effective mass) goes lower (as value).
 

Slicerman

Semi-Pro
My main racquet is a Wilson Blade with leather grip. Using a leather grip will definitely make the racquet easier or faster, as long as the total weight is within your tolerance. Its strange, adding a leather grip actually made the racquet feel lighter, but in fact increases the weight and also slightly increases the swingweight as well. I found that having leather grip without any counter-weight in the head actually made the racquet feel too "whippy". Balance actually makes a big difference.
 

BlueB

Legend
The basic changes are:
1. The sweet spot goes few cms down (to the handle)
I'm not too sure about this...

2. The hitting weight (effective mass) goes lower (as value).
This is impossible to achieve without actually removing some weight. Certainly not by adding weight anywhere on the frame.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk
 

Simplicius

Semi-Pro
2. The hitting weight (effective mass) goes lower (as value).
This is impossible to achieve without actually removing some weight. Certainly not by adding weight anywhere on the frame.
To help you understand it:

Take it from Equation for hitting weight? thread:

Here are two formulas for hittingweight. The first is for on-center hits along the longitudinal axis (long axis butt to tip) and does not involve twistweight. The second is for hits anywhere.

1. Me = M x Icm / (Icm + (M x b^2))
2. Me = M x Icm x Iy / ((Icm x Iy) + (M x Iy x b^2) + (M x R^2 x Icm))

where Me = hittingweight ("effective mass")
M = racquet mass in kg
Icm = swingweight about the balance point (cm = center of mass), aka recoilweight
Iy = twistweight
b = distance (cm) of impact from the horizontal axis through the balance point
R = distance (cm) of impact point from the long axis
b & R values "seat" in the denominator (the bottom number in a fraction), so bigger values there (as the balance point move to the handle) make Me (hittining weight value) lower...

That's simple maths.
But I've made so many customization experiments myself...
It's obvious when you test that tailweighting racquet in the court.
:)
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
say I add a leather grip (we'll argue the synthetic vs. leather grip weights after) to get some weight in the grip do I reduce the "potential plowthrough" or negate any of the weight that is in the hoop?
The SW (for all practical purposes will remain the same. Recoil Weight goes up and inertia relative to you swing axis goes up making it a bit harder to swing. But the SW at 10 cm does not change. Therefore the sweet spots (COP and the center of the stringbed) remain the same. As long as the racket is being swung at the same speed the plow through remains the same.
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
2. The hitting weight (effective mass) goes lower (as value).


To help you understand it:

Take it from Equation for hitting weight? thread:



b & R values "seat" in the denominator (the bottom number in a fraction), so bigger values there (as the balance point move to the handle) make Me (hittining weight value) lower...

That's simple maths.
But I've made so many customization experiments myself...
It's obvious when you test that tailweighting racquet in the court.
:)
If you add mass to the handle (below the COM) the COM will go down, but at the same time Icm goes up. I think you will find if you plug real numbers in your formula your Hitting weight does not change.
 
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Attila_the_gorilla

Guest
Any weight you add any where can slow down your swing.
The point is that in this case it's not the extra weight that slows down your swing but the more headlight balance.
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
The point is that in this case it's not the extra weight that slows down your swing but the more headlight balance.
Are you trying to tell me that all else being equal a more head light balance is harder to swing? Do you mind if I ask why?

EDIT: A key point to remember is if inertia is additive. Instead of having to swing just the racket now you have to swing a few extra grams in you hand now.
 
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Attila_the_gorilla

Guest
Are you trying to tell me that all else being equal a more head light balance is harder to swing? Do you mind if I ask why?

EDIT: A key point to remember is if inertia is additive. Instead of having to swing just the racket now you have to swing a few extra grams in you hand now.
Not "harder" to swing. But it swings slower. A more controlled swing, with less racket lag. Read the article I quoted above.

http://www.tennisindustrymag.com/articles/2006/04/racquet_handle_weighting_and_m.html

A sledge hammer is very heavy, and very head heavy. But it swings very fast, once it's set into motion. I think people tend to confuse swingspeed with the time it takes to execute a shot. A head heavy racket naturally goes on a longer loop, so it may seem slower but its swing speed will be faster than a headlight racket, as long as the other specs are similar.
 
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Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
@atilla_the_gorilla I agree adding weight makes it harder to swing but the fact that it is head light doesn't
 

ARKustom93

Professional
Not "harder" to swing. But it swings slower. A more controlled swing, with less racket lag. Read the article I quoted above.

http://www.tennisindustrymag.com/articles/2006/04/racquet_handle_weighting_and_m.html

A sledge hammer is very heavy, and very head heavy. But it swings very fast, once it's set into motion. I think people tend to confuse swingspeed with the time it takes to execute a shot. A head heavy racket naturally goes on a longer loop, so it may seem slower but its swing speed will be faster than a headlight racket, as long as the other specs are similar.
Great article, but unfortunately you came away with the wrong conclusions.
 
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Attila_the_gorilla

Guest
@atilla_the_gorilla I agree adding weight makes it harder to swing but the fact that it is head light doesn't
Again. Not harder to swing. This is pretty basic. Hard to swing is not the same as slower swing speed.
 
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Attila_the_gorilla

Guest
Great article, but unfortunately you came away with the wrong conclusions.
My conclusions were made independent of that article, based on my own experience. That article just underlines what I already knew. Tell me where you disagree with me, and why.
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
Great article, but unfortunately you came away with the wrong conclusions.
I agree with you. Here is a little excerpt from the article:
Rod Cross from RSI Mag said:
If you take a medium weight racquet (around 300 grams) and add 30 or 40 grams to the tip, it will feel really head heavy and will be very difficult to control. If you add 30 or 40 grams to the handle, the racquet will feel heavier but it will not be much more difficult to swing because the swingweight stays almost the same.
When you swap out a synthetic grip with a leather on you probably will add a little weight but not much. At least not 30-40 g. But any weight you add to the handle will make the racket more HL. But making it a little more HL won't make it harder to swing adding mass makes it harder.
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
The point is that in this case it's not the extra weight that slows down your swing but the more headlight balance.
Again. Not harder to swing. This is pretty basic. Hard to swing is not the same as slower swing speed.
Tell me again what makes the racket harder (slows the racket down) to swing if it is not the added weight.

EDIT: If it's not harder to swing what slows the racket down?
 

TennisHound

Legend
I've tailweighted the heck out of the Blades, added lead all over the hoop, and finally just played it stock (2015 version). Lead and tailweighting took away from the overall characteristics of it, IMO.
 
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Attila_the_gorilla

Guest
Tell me again what makes the racket harder (slows the racket down) to swing if it is not the added weight.

EDIT: If it's not harder to swing what slows the racket down?
Try swinging a hammer by holding it at the heavy end. It will feel much lighter and more maneouvrable. It will not be "hard to swing", in fact you will feel that you can almost swing it just by turning your wrist. But it's swingspeed at the tip will be slower than if you hold it at the handle. That's because the hammer head lags behind your hand, due to the head heavy balance. This lag and then the eventual snap forward results in more explosive tip speed. When you hold the hammer at the heavy end, this lag does not naturally occur. Same thing happens with a head heavy vs headlight racket, to a lesser extent of course.
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
Try swinging a hammer by holding it at the heavy end. It will feel much lighter and more maneouvrable. It will not be "hard to swing", in fact you will feel that you can almost swing it just by turning your wrist. But it's swingspeed at the tip will be slower than if you hold it at the handle. That's because the hammer head lags behind your hand, due to the head heavy balance. This lag and then the eventual snap forward results in more explosive tip speed. When you hold the hammer at the heavy end, this lag does not naturally occur. Same thing happens with a head heavy vs headlight racket, to a lesser extent of course.
I'd be willing to bet you could swing a tennis racket faster than you could swing a sledge hammer if you measure a 40 cm point above you hand on the racket and the hammer.
 
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Simplicius

Semi-Pro
If you add mass to the handle (below the COM) the COM will go down, but at the same time Icm goes up. I think you will find if you plug real numbers in your formula your Hitting weight does not change.
Everybody say/know that swiwgweight does not change when you add weight into the butt or below 10 cm of it.
For the rest 5-6 cms of the handle (if anyone adds there weight - that's not common) sw raises almost to zero.
You can use the tw customization tool to check this by your own...
 
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Attila_the_gorilla

Guest
I'd be willing to bet you could swing a tennis racket faster than you could swing a sledge hammer if you measure a 40 cm point above you hand on the racket and the hammer.
Way to completely miss the point. Obviously a sledgehammer was an exaggeration. An actual sledgehammer is not designed to create a lag and snap swing. You just lift it up and drop it, using its head weight. A regular hammer on the other hand works very similarly to a head heavy tennis racket.

But I'm sure even you get the idea by now, just being silly.
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
Way to completely miss the point. Obviously a sledgehammer was an exaggeration. An actual sledgehammer is not designed to create a lag and snap swing. You just lift it up and drop it, using its head weight. A regular hammer on the other hand works very similarly to a head heavy tennis racket.

But I'm sure even you get the idea by now, just being silly.
Oh, I'm sorry I brought up the sledge hammer thing. So now am I to believe I can drive nails into a board with a tennis racket?
 
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Attila_the_gorilla

Guest
Oh, I'm sorry I brought up the sledge hammer thing. So now am I to believe I can drive nails into a board with a tennis racket?
Hmm maybe I should have added a disclaimer to my post. Hope I'm not getting sued. Next time you may even pack your tennis bag with a bunch of claw hammers and blame me for not playing well and even getting injured. If you play tennis at all, that is.
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
Everybody say/know that swiwgweight does not change when you add weight into the butt or below 10 cm of it.
For the rest 5-6 cms of the handle (if anyone adds there weight - that's not common) sw raises almost to zero.
You can use the tw customization tool to check this by your own...
Inertia is additive no matter what anyone tells you. That's physics. If the inertia around any point is x and you add mass m at 5 cm from that point (above it or below it) your SW will go up 25m as long as m is measured in Kg. The resulting SW will be x + 25m.
 

ARKustom93

Professional
My conclusions were made independent of that article, based on my own experience. That article just underlines what I already knew. Tell me where you disagree with me, and why.
Added weight(let's say 25g) below the 4" mark on the handle has almost no effect on swing speed, but the change in balance is quite significant as it decreases racquet head inertia(lag) and therefore creates greater head-speed potential. Add the same amount of weight at 3-9 on the racquet head, and you will feel that weight. Now you're dealing with a huge increase in swing weight and head inertia, capping both swing- and head speed, and likely even affecting your stroke mechanics.

On a side note, slower swing speed does not necessarily translate into more 'control'.
 
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Attila_the_gorilla

Guest
Added weight(let's say 25g) below the 4" mark on the handle has almost no effect on swing speed, but the change in balance is quite significant as it decreases racquet head inertia(lag) and therefore creates greater head-speed potential. Add the same amount of weight at 3-9 on the racquet head, and you will feel that weight. Now you're dealing with a huge increase in swing weight and head inertia, capping both swing- and head speed, and likely even affecting your stroke mechanics.

On a side note, slower swing speed does not necessarily translate into more 'control'.
The main issue seems to be that you think decreased racket head lag gives you increased swing speed.

Greater racket lag means longer swingpath, means faster swingspeed potential, as long as the swingweight is a given. And that's where the other issue cones from, you need the swingweight to be constant to make meaningful comparisons. Add and remove weight from the handle instead, which has no effect on swingweight but great effect on balance.

I'm not talking about controlling the ball with a slow swingspeed. Just observing the fact that the swing itself is more controllable with a more headlight racket. Not the ball, but your swing of the racket. Easier to make slight adjustments with your wrist.
 

ARKustom93

Professional
The main issue seems to be that you think decreased racket head lag gives you increased swing speed.

Greater racket lag means longer swingpath, means faster swingspeed potential, as long as the swingweight is a given. And that's where the other issue cones from, you need the swingweight to be constant to make meaningful comparisons. Add and remove weight from the handle instead, which has no effect on swingweight but great effect on balance.

I'm not talking about controlling the ball with a slow swingspeed. Just observing the fact that the swing itself is more controllable with a more headlight racket. Not the ball, but your swing of the racket. Easier to make slight adjustments with your wrist.

RHS and swing speed are two separate components, and I clearly made that distinction in my comment, so please ...

As for the rest? You're confused, I'll leave it at that ;)
 
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